129: Networking with F.O.R.M. and Behavior Cues That Boost of Bust Your Credibility with Kare Anderson

Welcome to win the Women Investing Network, the podcast where you can learn from successful entrepreneurs, business leaders and real estate investors who are winning in business and life. Learning from others is the fastest way to grow your skills, gain knowledge and avoid pitfalls so you can win. Join our hosts, Elizabeth Embry and Jason Hartman. Elizabeth is a seasoned real estate investor, experienced corporate executive and skilled mentor. Jason is a self made multimillionaire investor, entrepreneur and highly acclaimed thought leader. Together with their successful guests, you'll get the tools you'll need to win.

Welcome to another exciting episode of the Women Investing Network. I'm your co host, Elizabeth Embry. Today, Jason is going to be speaking speaking with Kari Anderson. She's an Emmy award winning journalist who's previously worked at the Wall Street Journal and NBC and is currently working at Forbes and the Huffington Post. She's talking about how to connect with people and communicate to build relationships and I really enjoyed that conversation. I think that you will too. As you're working as an entrepreneur or a corporate person trying to build your skills, trying to build your network, you're going to a lot of events. If you're getting into real estate or in real estate, you're potentially going to a lot of RIA or real estate investment association meetings, you're going to seminars with people, you're going to meet ups, trying to connect with people and learn new things. If you're working in technology, you're going to a lot of trade shows. If you're working in, you know, whatever, you're going to a lot of meetings and you're trying to meet new people to build skill and to build your contact list. Right? And it can be stressful as you're trying to meet so many people. You only have, let's say a half hour before the luncheon presenter or you know, you've got a cocktail hour of a couple of hours, but you've got literally a hundred people to meet. How can you balance, how can you find ways to engage in conversation as well as learn about as much about as many people as possible so that you can figure out who's going into your Rolodex and who is just somebody good to know just to have the context of them. Following the format of form is a way to help. I recently saw a stylist and etiquette expert speak at a women's lunch and she offered these tips of form, F O R M, family, occupation, recreation and message. Now, if you're like me talking about somebody's family, depending on the situation and the people you don't know. You may or may not want to start with family, but let's say you're at a Mommy and me, you know, event, then maybe talking about your family is the right thing to do. But it's just something to leverage. And all of these topics are things that you can leverage or choose not to leverage. It's completely up to you. I'm just trying to give you some tips and some guidelines to help you work through it. Occupation. Especially if you're in a work situation, talking about what you do, how long you've done it, which companies you worked at, is a great way to get the conversation, starting to understand people's level of expertise, their passion around a topic. So, for instance, if you're in a trade show for, you know, people working in real estate, flipping business, you know, flipping business, for instance, and they start talking about the fact that they're a landscape expert and they're super excited about the connection with nature and the balance and the artistry of it all, then, you know, it's somebody that's really passionate about the topic, somebody that you might want to leverage in the future for one of your projects. So talking about your occupation is an easy way to make those connections. Recreation. So you don't always want to be talking business. Sometimes you want to get to know somebody but not have it all be about what they do for their day job. So talking about, hey, there's a kayak flotilla group that's meeting up later today. Is that something you're interested or. So there's amazing mountain biking in this area. Do you mountain bike? Just starting to get into the conversations of what people do for fun, how they get out there and enjoy sports or the environment. Or maybe they're super excited about, you know, the latest tea that's available on the market. It doesn't matter. But talking about the things that people do for fun, for recreation, really gets into the heart of what the person's perspective is, who they are, and helps you get to know them at a deeper level. And the last piece is message. What message do you want to leave that person with? Maybe it's something as simple as, I'm super excited that I'm at this event. This is fun. I've really enjoyed meeting you. Maybe it's the speaker today is really in line with my larger career goals. I'm super excited about that. Or maybe it's just a matter of it was great talking to you. Maybe we can do business in the future. Thinking about what your elevator pitch is, thinking about the message that you want to leave people with and have that prepared. Think about that in advance so that you can provide a consistent and prepared message. You each person always helps make those conversations go smoother. The last thing to remember is the fact that you're there in a networking event to network. So make sure that you don't spend too much time with any one person. If you're in a half hour networking time before a luncheon, for instance, make sure that you're putting a target in mind with how many people you're going to have a conversation. Maybe it's I'm going to have five conversations in this next half hour, so you're giving yourself time. BOX okay, I need to be speaking with, you know, each person no longer than five minutes. I need at least three minutes to really try to connect with them. So three to five minutes is my target. Giving yourself a goal of how many people you're going to have a conversation with. Make sure that you don't linger too long with any one person but still doesn't make you feel so rushed that you're not even making those connections. And now here's Jason with our guest, Kari Anderson.

It's my pleasure to welcome Kari Anderson to the show. She is an Emmy award winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter. She is a connective behavior speaker and we'll ask her what connective behavior is. And a columnist for Forbes and the Huffington Post. Her clients are as diverse as Salesforce, Novartis, San Francisco Giants and the Cole Foundation. She's a founding board member of Annie's Homegrown and co founder of get this, nine political action committees. Really looking forward to diving in with her and learning about connective behavior. And she's on a TEDx committee as well. So we're going to ask her about the TED organization and that kind of stuff. Kari, welcome. How are you?

I'm fine, Jason. I was rather impressed seeing all the things you've accomplished.

Well, thank you. And thank you for joining us today. So first of all, give our listeners a sense of geography. Where are you located?

I'm in Sausalito, a little village over the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco.

One of the most beautiful places in the world.

Lot of quirky people here. I feel quite at home.

Quirky people and inexpensive real estate. Just kidding. Yeah. Well, good. Well, what is connective behavior?

It's the ways that we find that we get along, we like and admire each other rather than being offended or irritated or bored. Because of course, that's the first Step in a genuine way for us to want to build a relationship or even do something for someone else.

Yeah. So, I mean, is this really about the sort of the. Is the genesis of this kind of that beginning, that first impression thing? Is it about body language? Is it about what we say, how to be a better networker? I mean, you know, or does it really. It probably encompasses all. All of those things, I assume. Right. And more.

Well, networking is such a popular thing, but actually it's the counterintuitive other. It's how we create a sense of us where people can accomplish more together than they can on their own. So it's how we move, speak, and appear and how the settings in which we meet affect our views of each other as well as the wording online. So there's very specific things. And since that kind of behavior research is so popular, Jason, a lot of it, they extrapolate too much from what they've researched. So you have to be careful that some of the things that we hear that are popular, in fact, aren't true.

Well, give us an example of that.

Well, they invite us to smile and to be very upbeat because it's the American way. And my friend Adam Grant, who wrote Give and Take. So there's a dark side to emotional intelligence. That is, the more we become emotionally intelligent and aware of other people, we can manipulate them better. So what I'm talking about and what made it a passion for me as a former stutterer and a shy person, are what are the ways that we actually deeply listen and can speak sooner to a sweet spot of shared interest, especially from people that don't act right like us, because they probably have talents and experiences and approaches that are different than us in a situation. So we have the chance to accomplish something greater together than we would with hanging out with people who are just like us.

Yeah.

Okay, good.

So, I mean, is one of the thesises of your thinking that are, generally speaking, are our friendship and acquaintance pools less diverse than they should be?

They're getting increasingly less diverse. You're absolutely right. You can read a book called the Big Sort or Going to Extremes or the Filter Bubble. All three are showing in America. That's one of the reasons we get more rigid, reactionary shame people with that brilliant book out about shaming. But there are ways, for example, that are pretty simple. Getting specific sooner as we cite something about somebody else we admire showing warmth before competence instead of the reverse. And people more likely to trust us sidle rather than facing each other, walking, because we get more in sync. These are all ways that are just very basic to our humanity where it's easier for us to connect and like each other.

You know, I remember the story about Ronald Reagan being at Camp David and taking a walk when he was trying to negotiate. I can't remember what he was trying to negotiate. Maybe an arms treaty or something. Maybe this. You know, what was it? Salt? Is it way back then? I don't remember. But he sort of broke the pattern and got up and just took a walk with who? Was it Gorbachev maybe?

You know, I remember that story. It's so familiar, but I can't either. And he also ambles, so there's a rolling gait that he had that has a warmth to it. Had a warmth to it.

Tell us about that a little bit more. That's interesting.

Well, you know, some people, they go fast to go slow. I say they speak sharply. They have staccato rhythms in their voice and the way they gesture. And you know, Gypsy Rose Lee was a famous stripper once and she said something like, anything worth doing well is worth doing slowly and lower, slower and fewer motions actually make us look more caring. So I think there's ways that we can connect with people where they feel comfortable and they get in sync. The more vital signs are in sync, the more we tend to like each other.

I would agree. And you know, certainly not to make this about Reagan, but one of, I think his very powerful things was when, you know, an opponent would attack him or just attack him in any way, he would say, oh, there you go again. What a great way to diffuse them. You know, it's like such an old chummy, friendly thing, you know, like patting him on the back. Oh, there you go again.

I like that. And if you're talking about a gradation of what works, it is slightly demeaning, but it makes that other person back off. Relatedly, what I really admire is creating a bigger pie when someone's attacking you. There's a man named Danny Al from Latin America, dark skinned soccer player in Barcelona. And part of the audience was racist. While they're playing, they were saying racist things about him. And one of them, in fact threw a banana down into the stadium and he walked up to it, casually picked it up, took a bite, threw it aside and just with great warmth continued playing. And people started clapping and it made news and it went viral online and they actually arrested the person who did the banana throwing. So there's ways that you can show other people grace under pressure. And it's A sudden visceral insight rather than reacting and being a jerk too, because someone else is being one.

There's a Buddhist saying where the example is, well, it goes something like this, a quote that says, you know, if. If I give you a gift and you refuse to accept it, to whom does the gift belong? And that's really part of this. When someone attacks you, you don't have to accept the attack, you know, so it, it still belongs to the other party. Right? Isn't that.

Yeah, that's correct. I like that. I just wrote that down. Thank you. Yes. And it also means we have to have a sense of ourself and be grounded. I think the more we know our hot buttons because we all have two to three different things that really bug us and if we're more clear about the concrete behavior, not just how we feel, then we can see it coming further along, like defensive driving, and we can plan for what we want to do so we don't let somebody else determine our behavior.

Yeah, that's very true. That's a very good point. Well, mutuality matters how you can create opportunity, adventure and free friendship with others. What other tips do you want to share about this? It's a very interesting topic.

Well, in the wake of more and more people wanting attention because they're living and working alone and because in a tech enabled world, bad and good can hit faster and firm more places. That's my view. From drugs to money laundering to drones. I think that those people that understand what their top passion and their top talent is and they also know their hot buttons. The flip side, they can put more top of mind how to find complementary partners to be on the lookout for them. And one of the most noble things we can do, I think is develop relationships where they're trusted. So it's not just giving all the time, which is controversial to say, but looking for ways that there's give and take over time, not quid pro quo, but an ebb and flow. So if you've cultivated those diverse relationships and you've been there for them and you've demonstrated that, as they have with you, when you see a problem or an opportunity, you're more likely to be able to recruit the right team and solve it or seize it faster and better than other people. So that kind of connective leader is the one that is going to have the most clout, whether they're a solo soloist in their own work or midway through a company or the head of a country. It's that capacity to have diverse relationships where you may heartily disagree on one thing, but you agree on something else. Three unlikely, unexpected allies stand together at a scene with an object, and they're very specific and say, we actually don't get along in some ways, but we do believe in this, and here's why, and we hope you join us. I think that's the future scenario where it has interestingness and it pulls people in with credibility.

Yeah, it sure does. It's very interesting. So, you know, when people disagree fervently on a topic, you know, whether it be world leaders and they're, you know, government leaders and they disagree, or just people in business or maybe they've had a conflict over something that's been rather. Do you have any tips on how to. How to bridge that gap? I mean, what was it, Abraham Lincoln that said, keep your friends close and your enemies closer? It's a great, great point, isn't it?

Yes. And that wonderful book about the team that he formed and Obama was hopefully trying to form where there'd be different minds. It's like that notion, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Well, that's not true. Everybody's smarter at something. But I think the best way to do it is to genuinely praise somebody for something that you really admire about them. But also, starting with the first meeting, try to look for the thing you can most admire about them and keep it top of mind because there will always be something that irritates them down the line. But I also believe if you're able to say civilly, we may disagree about several things such as this and this. Does it seem like we have different views? See, that's the language you use as well. Say, but I also notice that you seem to really feel strong about such and such. And I feel the same way. But the second part is to have that friendship, the best kinds of friendships that are healthy and valuable is for example, if you and I found that we had some interest in common, which we actually do, regarding getting messages out, such as you're doing so well with your programs, is for, you might say, kari, I thought you'd be interested in blah, blah, blah, and you sent it to me, I said, well, actually, that's not too helpful for this reason. And rather than you taking it personally that I'm insulting you, we're helping each other iteratively become better at what we do need and want. And also, if you introduce people to each other, people are forever saying, hey, you two ought to meet. You're Both great people. I think it's much more thoughtful to say you two seem to share an interest in blah, blah. You may want to explore it. So that way we become valuable with and for other people because we get specific sooner. And I believe more than anything, getting specific sooner makes you more credible, gains clarity, and it's more memorable getting specific sooner.

So what does that mean, getting to the point of the conversation or the meeting or what do you mean by that?

Well, I'm a journalist, so great stories open with some detail or a story or example, and then give the background or the lesson or the trend. Most smart people do the reverse. We talk about generalizations. You know, ads used to say with, you know, the bank or the hospital, whatever. We put our customers first. But instead they said, we're now going to be opening these hours, or we're now giving enhanced service for you to be able to more easily check on blah, blah, blah, because we care about serving you better. The more you say that detail first, you get people's attention and they have a context in which to listen. I have a client, for example, who stood in front of a group of analysts and had very little time, and he rolled up his shirt sleeve and he pointed at the patch because he was the head of a biotech firm. And he said, when this patch goes on the market, you'll feel the effects out your body faster than a Porsche can go from zero to 90. So he was a billboard for his message. Literally on stage, he did what I called a compared to what? And he gave a specific detail. Now, his wasn't the biggest story at the conference, but it was the one that was most covered.

Yeah, I like that. Compared to what? Because that gives people something that everybody can understand. I mean, had he got up there and said, this will take effect in within one day of using the patch, that's not a Porsche going from zero to 90. Right, right.

And he was making a reference to something, because this was about eight years ago, that was aspirational. It was something that people in that audience identified with. Yeah, but we can all look for it. You see, it means it's not a matter of money. It's a matter of sidelong glancing at your world and thinking, what product do I want to compare this to? Or what situation? And then you see examples all around you that you can use to make your own idea or message or product stand out.

You know, I bet a lot of your teachings really had to be applied and were learned in your various reporting jobs over the years. I mean, you Got to get people to open up as a reporter. A lot of times they just don't want to open up. I assume many reporters are very confrontational and people just put up the wal and you know, if they give it, you know, they either say no comment or they give the pat answer that you know is never going to land you a good story. How do you get people to open up like that? I mean you shared a couple of those tips, but are there any more?

That's a very astute way you started because yes, I think people see some journalists as confrontive and they might be, but I don't think that works. I mean you look about the Jenner interview, Bruce Jenner, and where she got a great story but she pulled it out of him and he felt safer he she to say it. When I was a journalist, most of the people were guys and older me when I started out and the ones that had a genial face in our pose and listened closely and asked a question because the opposite is also true. People will talk at us and generalizations or things that are, do not, that are. What do you call it? One thing contradicts another and you don't want to make them look bad. You want the real story. So one of the things I suggest is asking a question, listen closely and this is in any conversation, ask a follow up question. What's an example of that? Because then you get the specifics. But even better. And there are two men I just admire deeply that were both killed in war zones this last three years. But what they do is they'd ask a question and someone would respond and they maintain that genial look at them and just wait. Because then someone comes, they say the next thing in their mind, they're talking it out loud to themselves. And the fuller, richer story often pours out. I truly believe more people want to be heard and understood and where I don't have as many connective conversations anymore. So just saying. Well, when you pointed this out it occurred to me. Could you tell me more about that? You don't revert it back to yourself. You prove you've heard and there's a thread to a conversation.

That's a great point. You know, if I mean imagine the walls that would come down in the world. Imagine the enemies who would be able to work together at least if not become friends. If all you need to do for someone is make them feel understood. Right. Isn't that just the core of everything?

I think the way you put it was wonderful about the Walls of Fall. I Absolutely believe it. I think people want to be understood and then they don't. Many people don't mind a disagreement. They just want to be understood and have a conversation about something that matters to them rather than just saying, how are you? And it's wonderful to look out for, for people who are like that, who bring out others better sides because there's a way they can do it. I mean, I remember early in Clinton, Bill Clinton would show such attention to people that I recovered a man who just got very vociferous about how he hated Clinton. And then I saw Clinton walk over to him at this event and the man was getting warm and gesturing and smiling. So there's something about giving some of your wholehearted attention that's captivating. Nelson Mandela truly did that. I'm honored that I got to interview him once. He'd walk into a room and there were glittering celebrities and sports heroes and all that. And they. He walked in and they. It's like the air changed. It brought out a better part of them. I mean, I get teary while I'm saying this, but it just. They warmed up to him and they all looked like even more decent, kind people. I think that's the power of what you were talking about.

Very interesting. Very interesting. You know, I did not see the Bruce Jenner interview because I don't, I don't have TV anymore. But, you know, that was an incredibly highly rated. I read about it. Of course, almost 17 million people tuned in. That was one of the biggest rated segments in, I think, maybe forever on that show. How did Jenner and Sawyer do in their respective roles? I'm kind of curious to get your take on that. I haven't talked about that on the show yet.

I believe it's because she was very smart as an interviewer. It helped her immensely because she thought I want to bring out something unexpected because there's a lot of people that have no idea about transgender, including me. I know a bit because in the Bay Area it's topic, but she wanted to really get to the truth of what he was doing and why and not just about his car accident or he did something horrific. And so when she listened and asked follow up questions, he. She opened up and said, this is what it means for me and other people. So it was a unique story. And any journalist wants a unique story that has dimensions to it that no one else has gotten or would get. It also means that more people will want to have an interview with her because they want to get to the core of something because she did press. She wasn't just trying to make it a puff piece. So it was her style of warmth and her probing and her clarity that she wanted to get to the core of the stages of why he chose to do that.

And then there's the role of the guest, the interviewee. How did Bruce Jenner do?

You know, I'm still processing that in my mind. I think he must have been coached and prompted because there's a lot of things that he's done that are very controversial recently. And not that I think you mean the car accident. Yes. And the response to the car accident that he had. So I think he maintained a very human, compassionate thing, making it a category not just of one him, but of the people he was representing in similar situations. And it's always wise to attach yourself to a wide group and build your constituency, but also to refer to their traits, even if you haven't had some of them. I'm trying to. I'm saying this in a way. I know it's maybe controversial to some, but that can make a larger lesson.

Yeah, yeah, very interesting. I read the letter that his ex wife wrote. It's in Huffington Post, by the way, and it's like a 4, 300 word essay. It's quite moving. That was really, really interesting to read all of that and, you know, just hear about their lives together and so forth and, you know, her point of view on it. Very, very interesting.

Can I say something about that?

Sure, yeah. But before you do, I just wanted to mention, you know, when you mentioned, you know, Jenner was coached. Well, I mean, of course, any, any celebrity guest is going to have some media training, right?

I mean, no, a lot of them don't.

Well, hopefully they do.

Shouldn't they think you're a good actor? You may think it translates to other skills. Right.

Okay, well, feel free to expand on that. But you wanted to say something about his ex wife's letter, too.

I think a lot of us think that if we're really good at something that makes us smart at other things where we don't yet have experience, I think we don't get deeply reflective and say, what do I most want to accomplish in this opportunity? But what I was going to say is he was lucky to have her do that. But most of all, if I was to say something for your huge audience, it's so captivating and credibility boosting when you cite other people as positive examples of the stands or the topics that matter to you. And there's a woman named Dori Clark who's become a friend years ago who wrote a book called Standout. There's so many books about how you stand out and look important. But the amazing thing she's done for three years is write very good columns where it's always citing two to five other people as specific incidents and examples of the point she's making. So, of course she has a strong web of connection with people because she cited their smartness, and that's what her book does.

And.

And that's actually rather rare because I actually get a gob of books because people want me to cover their story. But when you cite something specific that someone else has done and then a second person, a third person has never been cited together, you're showing you become a category of one. Joe Calloway wrote a book that way where you're the only person that comes up with a fresh idea that's bolstered credibly by what other people have already proven to be true. And I think that's a huge path forward for the people that might be listening here who are the stakeholders who don't yet know you and who you do know, who have some facet of your core idea or your product or whatever, and inciting them, you pull them closer rather than pushing at them to support you. It's very becoming.

Yeah, it really is. So just tying that back into the Jenner interview, since that's what we were talking about, you know, it's certainly not just about him or her. You know, that represents a very large audience, obviously, or a fairly large audience. Did he do that successfully? Did he make it not just about him? You know, I don't know which pronoun.

I should use, but I only saw half of it, so I don't fully know because I was called away to a family emergency. But he certainly hit a thread, as you said earlier, from diverse people, from what we've seen in social media. I wish I'd seen the whole thing, and I could be more accurate in my observations.

Are there any questions that I didn't ask you or anything that you'd just like to say?

I guess I'd say this. To have a meaningful, accomplished life. The best thing is to try to be as grounded as you can. Know that we don't always know why people do what they do, and we make assumptions a lot. It's a book called Mind Wise, and Heidi Halverson wrote a book that says they don't understand you and what you can do about it.

Yeah, I had her on the show before.

Good Good. Well, then just saying this to be open to finding the best side in someone else and bringing it out by truly listening and by being concrete about what you heard and suggesting that sweet spot to be redundant. That's what I'm hoping for, that there's more of us that want to have that adventure and want to have a real experience, not just a passive one watching something and want to meet in person face to face and to put down the cell phone or you get a screen face because you look up and look sort of dour. I think that humanity and warmth and we don't look down. We actually look at people's repast. We don't have to be grinning fools, but we can show warmth in our life. And because behavior is contagious.

It certainly is. And it reminds me, and I know you did mention about smiling, but I remember in high school school, my Spanish teacher had this great little thing up and people can search it on the Internet. I'm sure it's there. But you know, a smile costs nothing but gives much. It enriches those who receive without making poor. Those who give just such excellent advice. We all, especially yours truly, need to remember that. So good stuff.

Oh, I got sugars. Thank you. Oh, I like.

Fantastic. Just look it up. I don't want to say Google it, because that's overused. I want to say just search it. Okay. Use Bing.

You clearly have a passion for what you're doing, and I think it must be helpful in the work that you do here because. And you had such apt insights. I like that. So you were doing a connective conversation. You were an example of what I've been talking about. I made it refreshing for me.

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Give out your website or a Twitter feed or anything else you'd like people to know where they can find you. And you've got some excellent blog articles, by the way. I really enjoy those.

Oh, thank you. It's sayitbetter.com and there you can see the Forbes and HuffPo sites from there. Yes. And I'd be honored to get people's reactions to the ideas I have, where they disagree especially, or what part is most resonated with them.

Sayitbetter.com and then of course, books on Amazon with excellent reviews. I mean, I love it when I see books with a lot of reviews, you know. So 95 reviews and five stars. So head over to Amazon. You can get it on Kindle or audio as well. So good stuff. Kari, thank you so much for joining us. And you know not to forget your TED speech with over well, with almost 1.5 million views, really excellent. I enjoyed that as well. So please check that out listeners. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you. Jason.

Thank you so much for listening to the Women Investing Network. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review the show on itunes or the platform of your choice. You can find the show notes and resources for today's episode@womeninvestingnetwork.com remember that guest opinions are their own and information is is of general nature. So be sure to consult appropriate tax, legal or other professionals for specific advice.