1417: Give Me An “R,” Recession, Social Distancing, Flatten The Curve, Mike Zlotnik

Well, you're going to laugh, but because of your podcast, we're positioned well. I don't know how else to thank you, but thank you. Your podcast and your services are amazing and I wish I could do more as far as working with you guys, but I haven't really. But maybe in the future, obviously. But once again, our family is grateful to you and your services and your information is priceless. Thank you so much.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new new slant on investing. Some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create.

More wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible.

Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1417. 1417. Thank you for joining me today. And thank you for joining me, your socially distanced host. We're all practicing our social distancing, right? And I hope you will also join me in flattening the curve. That's what we all need to do nowadays so the healthcare system doesn't become overwhelmed. Now folks, we've talked so much about this stuff and we got a whole lot more for you. We've got two and a half hours of content not on the podcast, but we're just going to give it to you because we think it's a public service. I'll give you an opt in for that later, but I had a very long discussion on which you can eavesdrop about pandemic investing. That is my strategy, which, boy, you need a strategy right now and I hope I have one for you. I think I do. These are crazy times we're living in. And here's the thing I want to say to you. I know there are some people out there who are doubters. They think this whole thing is a hoax. They think it's, you know, overblown. People are overreacting. Okay? You might be right. You might be right. I don't know if you're right, that it's a hoax. But there are those who believe that. But there are those who think that people are overreacting. And some People are overreacting. Chill out. Calm down. Relax. It's not going to be the end of the world for the vast majority of us. But will it be a recession? Oh, yeah. We're already in a recession, so give me an R. Right? Yes, we're definitely in recession. I couldn't believe Minuchi and our Treasury Secretary said just what was it eight days ago? That we may or may not go into a recession. Are you kidding me? It's crazy. Crazy. But you know, in fairness to him, I mean, the news is changing so quickly that it's really hard to keep up with, even if you're an insider with as much information as those in power have. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. If it is a hoax, if people are overreacting, if it's not that big a deal, so what? That's not the question. You have to ask yourself the right questions, okay? And the question is, what does this mean to your money, to your personal finance, to your personal economy? Well, we know what it means to the broader economy, and it is going to be shocking, okay? Shocking? Yes. We are going to see the quickest decline and I think the quickest recovery. So when you look at a chart, right? Just picture it like you're looking at a chart, and that chart has lines on it, as most charts do. And when you look at the shape of the economy, let's call it gdp. I mean, there are many ways you can measure this stuff, but let's call it overall GDP of the country and of the world, okay? And usually your typical downtime, your downturn in the economy, recession, depression, whatever. It's sort of a wide fat U shape, okay? Things go down, they stay down for a while in the trough, and then they go up, right? Or maybe it's a W where they go down, then they go up, then they go down again, right? Or maybe it's a V where they go down quickly and sharply. And then they go up quickly and sharply. Or. And this is the one I want to kind of propose to you, I think it's going to look more like this. I think it's going to look more like a square root symbol, okay? And I think we are going to get some very ominous economic news. Well, I think we've already gotten it, most of it, but it's going to be verified by the official statistics, okay. That the unemployment rate has spiked dramatically. And it has, and it will. The stats will back that up. The official stats aren't here yet, but they will be very shortly. And it's going to be a shocker. But.

This is so much different than other recessionary times because this one is a self imposed recession by proclamation, okay? It is one that not only the United States, but the entire world decided to go into. And I want you to remember that economics is a relative game. One of the huge fallacies. There are so many. I mean, there's so many people out there who just don't, I don't know, you hear them in the news and you just. They just don't think, right? It's like, learn how to think, okay? Or maybe they just don't get a long enough time to say it because everything's a soundbite and they want to get their sound bite to go viral. Right? Sadly, that's the weird culture that we live in. Right? But this, this fallacy of exponential math is partly real and partly bogus. Why? Well, because a virus has an exponential component. But it's not that simple. It's not really as exponential as it looks just by doubling, doubling, doubling, doubling numbers all the time. Okay? It doesn't work that way. All right? And you're gonna hear some of that when you go to get our free eavesdropping opportunity where you can listen in on a two and a half hour conversation that George Gammon and I had over the weekend all about my pandemic investing strategy. And I'm going to put for you in the show notes of this podcast, a video you must watch. Now, look, I'm sitting at home with a lot of time on my hands to study over the weekend because, hey, you're not supposed to go anywhere, right? And I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos, I've been reading a lot of articles, I've been listening to podcasts, I've been researching for you. I am your researcher. Yes, thank you for deputizing me as your researcher. And I'm going to put a video link in the show notes that you can find@JasonHartman.com, a link to a video that will help explain why this ain't as bad as it looks sometimes. Now, that depends who you are. Are you one of the people that believe in the exponential model? Well, there is some of that is true. It's not all untrue, but it's also at the same time overblown. It's like when usually a younger person will pitch me on a business plan and they want me to be an angel investor in their startup business, right? And they'll show me this business plan and the spreadsheet. You know, this growth looks phenomenal. The market is huge for our product or service. And Jason, write me a check for a million dollars because I'll turn your million into a billion.

And they do this like exponential math. It's of course ridiculous because no marketplace is that way. Well, if you're a virus, the marketplace for human host. You gotta have a host. If you're a virus without a host, you're dead. You're just gonna die, okay? If the virus wants to live, it needs a host, which, by the way, is one of the differences between a virus and bacteria. I've also been brushing up on my science here a little, as you should. But look, folks, partly true, partly false of the exponential fallacy, okay? Just understand it. Watch the video that I'll put a link to in the show notes. You can find it@jasonartman.com in the podcast section for this episode. 14:17. Also, it's not like the flu, okay? If you believe that, you must be an ostrich because you're sticking your head in the sand. Maybe you think the whole thing is fake. Okay, fine, you know, believe it if you want, but you just don't force that belief onto the rest of us by spreading the contagion, okay? Please, you know, believe it in solitude. I'll ask you to do that. The US Is not like Asia in Italy. Why? Well, many reasons, of course, but one reason is that the idea of suburbia. Look, you're talking to a real estate guy here. The idea of suburbia is a uniquely American idea. And in those other places in Asia and Italy where these outbreaks have been so bad, they live, the vast majority of them, in a much higher density environment. And remember my New commandment number 22, Thou shalt invest in low density properties. And that's not a new strategy for us. We've been doing that. Hey, I've been telling you to do that for almost 17 years now, okay? The rise of suburbia that I predicted many years ago. Commandment number 22. So if you've been following our plan, I think you are going to see a huge migration toward the types of properties we've been recommending and continue to recommend to you, the types of properties that you can find@jason hartman.com properties Mike Norman, one of our prior podcast guests, you know, the modern monetary theory guy, he posted on Facebook, Naresh sent it to me, that he is moving out of New York City. He's fed up with living there. Once this thing blows over, he's getting out and he's going to go live in a lower density environment. And I think there will be millions of people that think that way. And guess what? A lot of them are going to drive up the value of your properties and they're going to drive up the price of your monthly rental income. Good for you. Congratulations, investor. Okay, that's one big fallacy. The other big fallacy is about debt. We are going to see stimulus. Maximus. This will be the biggest money printing extravaganza in world history, not just by the US but by all countries. Okay? We are going to create so much stimulus and pump it into the system like you cannot even comprehend. And, you know, we're already seeing some of that. But. But wait, there's more. As they say, here's the fallacy. Everybody has been talking for decades about how the debt level is too high. We can't sustain this much debt. The Federal Reserve can't have this big a balance sheet. The government can't have this big a deficit. The government can't have this much debt. And also the government can't have this much of an obligation in terms of unfunded mandates coming at us the next 15 years. Oh, wait, I think you heard me say that one. Yeah, I'll admit it. Yes, I did say that. Now, I didn't say they couldn't have it, but I said they couldn't have it without. What's my favorite word, listeners? Inflation. Yes, they couldn't have it without inflation. And I still believe that. So if you thought government spending was crazy before, fasten your seatbelt because you ain't seen nothing like this. You didn't see this during the Great Recession. This is all new territory. And what's that debt going to do? Well, number one, who knows when it's unsustainable? Who has the answer to that? Because we've never been there before. Okay, We've never been there before. And as I said on that interview on my holistic survival show, which by the way, you might want to be listening to nowadays, that's a show about protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Time suddenly became rather uncertain, didn't they? Well, that's a show where I interviewed preppers and I did that for many, many years. It's got about 250 plus episodes, holisticsurvival.com or any podcast platform. Just type in Jason Hartman, Holistic Survival. You'll find it. And check that show out. That can help you be prepared more on the practical end and somewhat on the economic End. But this show will help you on the financial end the most. But the question is, how much debt is too much debt? And nobody knows. Just like the Berkeley professor who was saying the world's overpopulated, the world's gonna end. Global warming, climate change, oh my God, it's over. Okay, well, so you think 7 billion people are too much? Well, let me just show you this Time magazine cover from the 60s. Yeah, somewhere in the 60s, I think it was 1962 maybe, where they're talking about how the population explosion is overwhelming the Earth's resources. Let me take you back to 1798 and have a conversation with Mr. Malthus, Malthusian economics. Who said we were going to run out of food. Well, clearly that didn't happen. And peak oil didn't happen. Guess what? How do you know how many people the Earth can support? I know a lot of people do think we have a population explosion and there's too many people. Okay, fine, but how do you know how many people is the right number? What's the Earth's limit? Is it 7 billion like we have now? Is it 10 billion? Is it 20 billion, 40 billion? I don't know. Nobody knows. Same is true with debt. Nobody knows. It's a fallacy. Okay, now is the debt a problem? Yeah, it's a problem. Okay. Is human plunder of environmental resources a problem? Yes, it's a problem. Okay. No question. Not saying it's not either of these things. I'm just saying that nobody knows the answer as to how much is too much. That's it. Okay. As far as Italy goes, just tragic stories coming out of Italy. And I ask you, all of you listening, knew that when Brexit came around, I was very much in favor of Brexit, and still am, by the way. Many people disagreed with me. And I ask the eu, they're great at collecting taxes, they're great at saying, pay us money, let us regulate you. And now you look at what's happening in Italy, where the hell is the eu? Open your borders, let everybody in. Pay us, pay us taxes. But in a time of a serious real crisis, they're conspicuously absent, aren't they? I mean, not completely. I know they're not. Don't, please don't send me a note saying, oh, Jason, I saw this article about the EU doing something. Yeah, it's dropping the bucket. Okay. They should be doing way more. Also want to talk to you about self management. Okay. Had a recent good experience in self management of one of my properties. Okay. And the tenant Had a problem with her dishwasher and I fixed it easily. I got him a new one. I went to homedepot.com you can have a dishwasher delivered from any Home Depot in the country. Same with Lowe's. Drew Baker has been on the show. He likes Lowe's a little better. I used Home Depot for this one and had that dishwasher delivered to them. They even offered to pick it up, but it wasn't in the store. So it came directly from the distribution center to their house. And my tenants installed it themselves and just love it. They're super happy. So there you go. You know, I bet if I had a property manager, that whole ordeal would have been a lot more expensive. And it was so easy, you know, it was so easy just to go pick out the dishwasher for them. I think I made a very good decision. I got one on a big sale price and. Yeah. So self management. We've got a lot of former episodes on that and you can check them all out here on the podcast. Okay. Hey, without further ado, I've got our Venture alliance member and friend Mike Zlatnik on the show. As we are talking about some important things. I must say this interview is very new, but in today's world, I need to tell you that this interview is a week old. Okay? So if we say something about the current news, don't panic. It's only a week old, okay? The news cycle is changing so many times a day now that it's just impossible to keep up. Okay? We are living in crazy times, but we'll keep bringing the right strategies to you. Not the least of which is the two and a half hour talk that I'm going to ask you to eavesdrop on. And I'll have a link for you this week on that where we really explore pandemic investing and how to do it right. All right, go to jason hartman.com if you have any questions, if you have any comments or ideas or suggestions or whatever. Jason hartman.com Ask or reach out to us. Call us 1-800-hartman and here is the interview with Mike.

With all of the fear and craziness going on in the world right now, I want to give you as many perspectives as possible. Our former guest, Venture alliance member Mike Zlotnick. Want to invite him back on the show. He is a fund manager, a hard money lender, and let's get a perspective of what he sees going on in the marketplace. Mike, good to have you back.

Hi, Jason. Thanks for inviting me back.

So obviously we are experiencing a black swan event right now. Maybe once in a hundred year type of scenario. This took everybody by surprise. The economy was chugging along, you know, boom times seemingly. Of course, when I say that, I want to give the disclaimer that the US economy and really all economies around the world are built on a house of cards. It's a game of smoke and mirrors. But they can keep that going for an awfully long time. Now we have this black swan event, coronavirus that showed up and has really, really shaken things up. You're buying assets for your fund and those are different properties and mostly commercial real estate style investments. I know you're doing a portfolio of turnkey single family homes as well right now. What's happening out there? Are the sellers becoming more anxious, less anxious? It's kind of hard to tell because the stimulus coming into the economy is absolutely incredible and there's going to be a lot more of it. Rates are phenomenal. I mean, they've never been this good ever. What do you make of it?

So number one, we need more time as the event. The last couple of weeks have been sort of brutal for the stock market and it's a massive shock and all the shutdown that's taking place, people need time to react and to adjust. So we Suddenly went from 50 miles an hour into a massive recession overnight.

Well, I think we were going about 90 miles an hour actually, but go ahead.

Yeah, let's just say 90 miles an hour. Now we've stalled and kind of rolling backwards. So certainly the government is going to try to stabilize things as well as it can. As a fund manager, my job is not to predict the future, but prepare for the good, the bad and the ugly scenarios. So we are certainly very opportunistic. Now we are looking at what investments we have in the portfolio and what can be at risk. And the big, big, big question, what we can do and something that we cannot do. Anything about what we can impact and what we cannot impact.

It's like the prayer of St. Francis, you know, give me the ability to change what I can and I don't know, I can't remember it, but the wisdom to know the difference. Right, go ahead.

So we're doing that, but we are certainly acquiring new assets. There seems to be more. Well, it hasn't kicked in yet, but distress is already happening. So we're looking for opportunistic situations where the assets are great. Specifically we're investing in a portfolio of turnkey rentals. The primary focus is it's a strong Cash flow. And you're a big fan of single family residential property?

Oh, sure.

So we're acquiring 94 of them with strong cash flow. That's one of the assets we feel pretty good about because it's fully rented and it's got what's most interesting. It's mostly Section 8, as scary as it sounds, or maybe as stable as it sounds. Section 8 tenants, they get government subsidy and they're not going anywhere, even if they lose a job.

Mike, I think we are on the verge of seeing either a universal basic income. This is the prelude to it. Or a nationalized Section 8 rental housing program. It just becomes a big national thing. I mean, Section 8 has been there for a long, long time in various other kinds of rental assistance, too. But now I think this might just become nationwide. We'll see.

Yeah, that is an interesting theory. As part of the stimulus that the government is working on right now, they may try to do something like that. So it's almost like, like you mentioned universal income or universal housing voucher or something to. Especially if the economy goes into a massive recession quickly. So I do agree with you. But we are very opportunistic in various sectors. We are certainly looking to lend money on some of the acquisitions. We're looking at the deal where a known relationship is acquiring 34 condos in a single building in Midwest. And they will sort of turnkey. Ranch condos are not ideal, but that particular building and that particular asset in a very affordable range.

Tell me, Mike, do you know, by chance, is that something you said you were acquiring or a colleague or friend of yours?

It's a client. So we're lending bridge money. We're making a bridge loan on the acquisition, and they're acquiring it probably 30% below the market. It's a distress.

Let me ask you something about that. That's 34 units in the condo complex. Do you know the total number of units in that complex?

Just over 90.

Okay, here's the thing I want to say about that. These are kind of interesting deals, and we saw them during the Great Recession. I was kind of tempted to do one myself. I didn't end up doing it. And I think, as everybody listening knows that's been listening for the last 15 years, 16 years. I don't like condos very much, but if the deal is right, I like everything. Okay. You know, every. I can be talked into anything at the right price at the right deal. Right. And if you can get more than half of that complex where you have 51%, you have controlling interest in the board. Those deals do become kind of interesting. 34 units out of 90. I'm not crazy about that deal because you don't have control. Condos are just so problematic in so many ways. You get litigation in that complex and the lenders don't want to lend and the prices just really tank. They're problematic. I'll tell you a deal I was offered just yesterday by a friend of mine. He has a client, he's an attorney and he has a client who's doing a foreclosure on a very expensive $2 million penthouse type condo. And he says he will sell his position, his client wants to sell his position in that deal for pennies on the dollar. And there's about a million dollars in equity. But I didn't even like that deal because there's just too much room for problems in a deal like that. The HOA dues are way too high. A high end property in this type of market where people need to be focusing on bread and butter housing, basic necessity housing, just way too risky for my taste. But I'm pretty conservative, you know, at my older age, so maybe for some of the or less risk averse people out there, that deal might be fine. I'm sure you'll find someone to do that deal. Okay, so that deal now you're doing a bunch of turnkey homes in Alabama that you're buying right now, Right?

Well, that's a 94 door portfolio.

94 single family homes?

Yes.

Okay, all right, good. You feel comfortable doing that deal? Are those basic bread and butter type houses? I assume they're not expensive. Right?

It's less than 50,000 a door.

Okay.

Required at probably 20% discount to the fair market value if you sell one off one at a time. And the RV on those things are almost.

Close to one and a half percent a month. I mean it's a very, very strong rent to value ratio.

It's a cash flow. But you realize that on those cheapo properties, the rent to value ratios are always better on paper than they tend to be in real life. Of course, you know this, I don't have to tell you, you're experienced.

We have a very competent operator that the fund manager. We're passive. So we're not going to be managing the portfolio. We have feet on the ground, somebody in that town who is the biggest fish in the town and then they can manage the portfolio. But back to the deal with the condos, very, very quickly. We're making a loan, we're making a hard Money loan with basically a little bit of an equity kicker, but at a good hard money rate. So from that perspective, I'm pretty happy to make a loan with borrow, putting skin in the game and servicing the debt and just refinancing six months later based on a fair market value with the traditional financing.

And just watch your loan to value ratio. That's all I would advise on that one. So make sure you've got some padding in there for problems. Okay? So Mike, what I asked you though at the beginning was kind of the vibe, the attitude of people. Your attitude seems gung ho. Like you're. And you're a conservative guy, by the way, but you're moving forward, you're buying more assets, you're in acquisition mode, it sounds like. What else are you seeing in the marketplace? What are other fund managers? I know you know quite a few of them. I know you know a lot of turnkey operators. You know, you, you just know a lot of people. You know a lot of lenders. Are they pulling in their horns or are they looking at this as an opportunity to acquire assets with really cheap debt?

Well, it's a mix at this point. So people need time adjusting. Right now the market feels like a dropping knife. At least the stock market, the volatility is high, it's up and down. But coming in and acquiring real estate, it's always been opportunistic play.

The folks I've spoken with in the last couple of days, there's a little bit of caution just to see, let the dust settle, sort of just slow down a little bit and let things stabilize and see what the federal government will do. But at the same time, we're working a number of deals and if they are good deals, why should we disengage and just sit on our hands and wait? So it's a. Most people I know are still running their businesses. They are moving forward. They're looking for opportunities. In fact, now the opportunities could improve and accelerate as distress increases. Distress sellers. I think I mentioned to you we're looking at a couple of deals, commercial deals, where we could step in and acquire a piece of the equity from an existing LP because they are distressed. But the project itself.

And when you say lp, you mean limited partner.

Yes, limited partner.

Let's just explain what's going on there. Okay. So many times in these illiquid alternative investment real estate deals where someone is syndicating a deal, there'll be a bunch of limited partners and there's no market for their share. It's illiquid so what Mike is saying is that he finds some of them out there that want to exit the deal but can't because they need to exit together. And there's no market for those shares. So you can buy them, those limited partner shares at a big discount, right?

That's exactly correct.

Okay, yeah, I just got to give the context.

For people, it's sort of, let's just call a short sale of an equity in the deal. So it's fascinating and these opportunities will accelerate. That's one of the drawbacks investing in these syndications is lack of liquidity when you need to exit, if the sponsor is not ready to exit. But there's no formal market for them and it does require consent of the sponsor or the issuer. But you can come in at a project that has gone through its risky phase at a pretty good discount and take over somebody else position. So that's what they're looking at as well.

Cool. Hey, do you want me to share with you my new super simplistic metric? Maybe it's not a metric, but a way to evaluate what kind of real estate deal people should go into. Remember I mentioned that to you off air? Sure, yeah. This is it folks. And since I'm not sure when this will air, you may have heard it from me before, but you may not have. So I have a new way to vet a real estate deal. And here it is. I believe that there will be a huge migration regardless of whether or not coronavirus blows over in a few months and it becomes no big deal and fades into the background as flu like things do in the summer usually, or if it becomes a terrible catastrophe and God, let's hope that's not the case. But either way, think this has instilled in society worldwide that people are going to become afraid of densely populated living circumstances. And what I mean there is, I think there is going to be a migration out of high rises, a migration out of dense living quarters, whether they be condos or apartment complexes, even four story complexes that you would see all over, you know, any suburban area in America, whether it be Palm beach or Phoenix or anywhere. I mean, you know, these four story apartment complexes have been going up like crazy the last 10 years. They're everywhere. There is going to be a migration away from that toward lower density, more suburban single family homes. Now not everybody can afford it, but many will try to get there. And I think that's really good for our product type. So here's the way you can vet, if you believe my theory, if you Believe my prediction. Then here's what you look for. You look for real estate deals that do not have real estate deals that do not have an elevator. No elevators. You know, they say the elevator business has its ups and downs. Well, I think it's going into a down cycle. There it is. What do you think?

That's a fascinating theory.

I always try to keep it really simple. No elevator. It's easy to know if you have one or not. You don't need an analyst to figure that out.

Yeah, for sure. Now with the coronavirus, it's the social gatherings and anything to do with people interacting with each other in person is a little bit at a stress point.

And you know the dangerous place that people catch diseases in elevators. Elevators are a super dangerous spot. The elevator button, in fact, is one of the germiest things in the world. Okay. The button itself. But being in that elevator means you are in a high density living environment. Not to mention, of course, you're sharing the air with people might be coughing and sneezing in that elevator as well, but go ahead.

Yeah, that's an interesting theory. I mean the phenomenon is not new. Plenty of the new developments and projects that build up to whatever city and state you're in. Like in New York, where I live.

Yeah.

Three floors and below. Actually four floors and below door.

It's usually four because. And usually the reason is the construction costs escalate dramatically. When you go above four stories, you have to do a whole different kind of construction. So that's the reason. But even a four story apartment complex has an elevator almost always. Almost always. There's a few of them out there that don't. But anything dense I think is going to be less desirable. And I think this is going to. The other thing is the telecommuting aspect that is going to become more and more popular, acceptable, promoted, whatever. Good stuff.

That's right. Just a quick comment on the telecommuting. Well, coronavirus just reset the whole industry. It basically created massive boom for companies like Zoom and other telecommuting companies.

But now Zoom is massively overpriced. I mean, it would have to go a long way to make up for the massive overpricing speculation in Zoomstock.

I'm not advocating Zoomstock. I'm just saying the pattern has shifted instantly. Almost instantly. It shifted to some level of telecommuting.

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, well, Mike, wrap up any other thoughts you have for us. Just whatever, maybe a question. I haven't asked you whatever you want to share.

Yeah, just one quick observation. I think I mentioned to you that we already have, for example, New York City, some level of oversupply of condos. But everybody knows that on the high end, condos. But what is less known is the office space. Every condo building is built medical office space and there is an oversupply of those and there's going to be some level of reset. And almost, it's almost necessary for the economy to reset. If it doesn't reset, it just continues to blow the balloon bigger and bigger and bigger. So the resets are good, they are necessary and we should not.

Be fearful of this. We should basically stay calm and wash our hands and look for opportunities to continue investing in real estate. From my perspective, this is a good thing as much as it's terrible for the country.

And health concerns are certainly something that we all take dear to our heart and there's so many friends and family get affected. But economically speaking, these type of resets are absolutely healthy for the economy and necessary from time to time.

Yeah, I agree. It cleans the excess out of the system and that's what's good about a reset. When you have these terrible forest fires, it really ultimately does the same thing for nature. It's terrible when it's happening. You know, there was all kinds of things about what it does for the soil and so forth. So. And Joseph Schumpeter, the, the economist would say creative destruction, well, these kinds of events force that upon us. So they're definitely unpleasant at the time. But overall there is a case that they are needed. I agree with you, Mike. Good stuff. Thank you for joining us. And you can be found at Big Mike Fund, right.

Big Mike fund dot com. And if you misspell it bigmic fund dot com I promise it's not a kinky site.

That's funny and that's not fun. It's fund F u n d. Right? Yeah.

BigMicFund.com But BigMikeFund.com will URL forward you to a nice kinky site. I'm just kidding. It'll URL forward to the bigmikefund.com okay, Mike.

Hey, thanks and be safe.

Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show's specific website and our general website, hartmanmedia.com for appropriate disclaimers and terms of service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice in any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate person professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show, please go to itunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you're using and write a review for the show. We would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.