1436: Tax Sales Profits with Julia Spencer, JPMorgan Chase Borrowing Standards

Yeah, I still feel like I'm on the path for sure and there's a lot more wealth that I want to grow and things I want to do. But I'll tell you, it's when I think back to where we were and what both of us, my wife and I both have done to be where we are today, it almost like if you'd have told me this is where we were headed 10 years ago or what I would have told you you were nuts. Because I could not, I couldn't have imagined we'd ever be able to buy real estate again or that I'd ever want to, you know. Here we are with several properties later and we're still chugging along.

Welcome to the Creat wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

How is everyone doing today? And what are you doing today? Oh, let me guess, you're at home. Imagine that. We're all at home. You know, I gotta tell you, I have actually really enjoyed this time. As crazy as it is, it is so nice not to have a trip coming up for someone like me who traveled at least a couple of times a month, sometimes even more. It is just really pleasant to not have anywhere to go. For once in my life, I don't feel like there's any, any level of fomo. You know what FOMO is, right? F O M O. It stands for fear of missing out. Fear of missing out, fomo. I think a lot of people feel like that. And you know what? One of my predictions in pandemic investing and I'm giving this presentation to a large, very high end mastermind group tomorrow. Very excited about that. Their priority speaker was Peter Schiff. So, hey, he's a little bit of a bigger name than I am and you've heard all my criticisms of Peter Schiff. He's been a guest on the show before, but we won't Go into that right now. Anyway, Anyway, it's just really nice to not have to go anywhere. And one of my predictions is that after we come out of this, after we come out of the lockdowns, the shutdowns, the shelter in place, orders, whatever you want to call it, the quarantines, I think, you know, let me know what your feedback is on this. This is just a, you know, this is not one of my data oriented predictions, okay, as many others are. This is just my view of how things will be after this. I think there will be a movement to a simpler life. And you know, I tell you, that's the way I'm thinking as I'm just enjoying this kind of simpler time. Now. Listen, I'm saying this and I get it that not everybody's enjoying this, okay? Many people are suffering depression, loneliness, isolation. I get it. That was already a big problem in society though. And in some ways there's some comfort in the idea that there isn't a FOMO right now. And I think a lot of people feel that way. Like, have you really thought about that? That normally if you are a person who has felt lonely in the past, right. One of the ingredients of that is the idea that you look at social media and you think all these people are out doing all these great things and I'm not included. I'm missing out. I have FOMO fear of missing out, right? And now it's like everybody's sort of in the same position.

Everybody has been equalized.

The playing field has been leveled and it's just a different world. And you know, one of the shows I used to watch as a kid was the Waltons. Do you remember the show the Waltons Good Night, John Boy? That was the famous line of the Waltons. And it was about this family. For those of you millennials and maybe even some Gen Xers, I'm a Gen Xer who don't know what the Waltons is. Okay? It was a show about a family, a large family living through the Depression. But it wasn't really that depressing for them comparatively to the city dwellers because they lived in a rural area. And in a lot of way, although their life wasn't abundant or great in any way economically, I'm speaking, they could provide for themselves. The people who couldn't provide for themselves were the people that were in the high density living environments in the cities. Okay? So that's the issue, right? Again, another one of my predictions is that people will migrate en masse. There will be a tidal wave of Migration to lower density living styles, especially suburban living styles, and suburban rather than rural. Okay. I mean, think about it. You have urban, right? That's like in the city and there are varying degrees of all of this stuff, right? But urban is generally in the city and 84% of the United States. 84% of the population of the United States lives in urban areas. Now we are doing a research project and I gotta give thanks to Charles and Arnie and Evan who are helping me work on this a little bit where we're really trying to figure out what number of people in the US and maybe even worldwide is susceptible to this mass migration movement. That will happen. Mark my words. I'm not going to be wrong about this. This will be one of my best predictions. It will happen. I would totally bet money on this. Okay. I wish I could bet money on this. How do I bet money on this? Do you want to bet me? Okay, listen, if you want to make me a bet or give me feedback on any of these things or thoughts, go to jasonhartman.com ask ask us a question, leave a comment, place a bet. Hey, you want to bet 100 bucks? 1000 bucks and maybe we'll make a bet. Of course we're going to have to define our bet. I'm not much of a gambler, but we got to define it a little bit. And so I think people are going to have a movement toward a simpler life. I think there's going to be a lot less going out to concerts, restaurants, plays. I think that stuff is, it's going to experience a massive, massive change. One of our clients is a very famous musician and I was texting with him about the music industry and texting with him and he was talking about how the concert industry is going to undergo just a massive, massive shock. A massive, massive change. So we'll see how that goes. So times, they are a changing, right? As Bob Dylan famously said, times, they are a changing. Before we get to our guest today, my friend Julia who's going to talk about tax sale opportunities, I want you to remember you can go to Bit ly taxprofit and check out our home based business opportunity. We wanna bring you opportunities. We know people need them nowadays. Work from home opportunities to make you geographically free and also hopefully help with your financial freedom as well. So Bit Ly taxprofit and Julia will be talking more about some other areas of tax sales today. And we'll get to that in just a moment. But first. Oh wait, I forgot. So, so many of you joined the webinar yesterday. Wow. On funding. And many of you signed up for that. Please give me your feedback@jasonhartman.com ask. We want your feedback on the whole process of getting that extra funding. As I have been saying, you have got to stock up on groceries, provisions, toilet paper. Gosh, we all know there's a shortage of that, right? But you've also got to stock up on cash. Now is the time to stock up on cash. You might have seen that JPMorgan Chase just massively increased the requirements to obtain mortgage financing. So these lenders, they're a little worried, as they should be. Okay? And they're getting stricter and tighter with funding. So you want to equity strip, you want to have a credit line, you want to have some backup cash right now, stock up on cash. In scary times, cash is king. It won't be king forever because we will come into an inflationary environment. But right now, right this moment, for the next few months or several months, cash is king. Okay? So if you want to join by popular demand, we had so many people on the webinar yesterday and so many people signed up, we are doing it Thursday as well. Go to Bit ly Bitly Thursday Fund, Thursday fund spelled out Thursday and then F U n D for another funding webinar. All of the questions and answers are live on the webinar every time. So bring your questions, get some answers. That's Bit ly Thursday Fund. Because tomorrow we're doing another webinar for you and we'll have these links in the show notes, of course@jason hartman.com. okay, we had a couple of questions and I wanted to just answer those. One comes from Brian hall and Brian says, hey Jason, I bought my first property through you about five years ago. Been listening a lot lately. Thank you, Brian. Appreciate you listening. My brother in law is more of a committed investor than me. I'm a musician that figured out how to make money. Hey, that's good. You know, being a starving artist or starving musician is almost a cliche, right? Well, I guess it is a cliche. So I'm glad you figured out how to make money. That's good. I've been in the cult for a while now. I'm not sure what cult you're talking about, the music cult or the Jason Hartman cult. Anyway, I hope you're a member of my little cult.

We love new cult members. I guess you're not new, been in for five years, right? But maybe you're talking about music. I'm not sure I'm not sure. Anyway, he's telling me that I should put all my liquid capital into the stock market right now because this is the cheapest IT meaning stocks will ever be. I bought two properties last year in Memphis. With my current liquid capital, I've been planning to just let things sit for at least three to six months and hop in once things calm down a bit. Not trying to time the market. And he put not in capital letters. Lol. Maybe just a little. But evidently I am missing out on a historic event right now by not being in the stock market. I'm wondering what you'll say about this. Sarah is our investment counselor. We love her. Just thought I'd see if we could get some thoughts from the boss man, Jason Hartman. Okay. And love what you're doing. Hey, Brian. Thanks for the kind words and thanks for the note. Oh, wow. Put all your money in the stock market. No.

Don'T do that. I admit that there are some individual stocks that do look like a great deal. Even me, who hates Wall Street. Who says Wall street is the modern version of organized crime? It's the modern mafia. Even I, I must say, am getting tempted. Not at. And when you say put the money in the stock market, I don't know what you mean. S and P, Dow fund or specific stocks. I admit there are some specific stocks that are looking attractive. But. But, but. But I think they're going to get even more attractive. So if you are a market timer, as we all get tempted to be. Listen, I know I'm against market timing in any asset class. It generally doesn't work. But I admit that I'm kind of looking too. Okay. Haven't pulled the trigger. But I'm thinking I should call up a stockbroker. One of the insiders, one of the people who has a nice yacht and his buddy asks him, where are all the customers yachts? Because all the brokers and the insiders have all the yachts. But not the customers, not the clients. Yes, Wall street is a scam. But even in a scam, you can make a little money once in a while. I think it's too early. I think you're too early. Corporate bonds are getting downgraded like crazy. There's more damage to come. So I would just cool your heels. We got people buying properties because they see the big game, the long term, the big picture. And I think they're making the right decision for stocks. It's just too volatile. And I would say, relax, cool your jets. But listen, on this show, you've never heard it before. Well, maybe you've heard it once or twice, but I'm going to share some stock tips for you when I think they're valid. But again, I just think it's kind of too early. So cool your jets on the stock market, the modern version of organized crime. You can become part of the crime syndicate later. Yes, you can. Okay, thanks for the nice message. Appreciate that. Okay, another question.

I saw the funding webinar yesterday and it was awesome. But I had a question. If we use the money for rental property purchases and it kicks up to 12%, meaning it's zero interest to start after 12 to 18 months, doesn't that put the income well below the loan amount plus interest? Wouldn't it make sense for a 30 year loan at 5%? I would like your thoughts on this. Thanks. Well, I agree completely. Look folks, this funding deal is an awesome deal. Join the webinar tomorrow. But the way you're going to pay it all back later is if you carry that loan longer than that initial zero interest part. Okay? You do not want to go past 18 months and start paying high interest on that loan, probably from 12%. And if your credit score is lower, it's even going to be higher. So look, that's the way they make money. Don't let them make money. Be the more disciplined customer, not like the usual customer that gets the money, blows it all, doesn't invest and uses it for living expenses. And then 18 months from now they're paying really high interest rates. You know, they're paying 12%. That's like hard money type rates. Okay, don't fall for that. This is not long term financing. This is short term opportunity financing and crisis financing, pandemic financing. Get control of some cash, but plan to pay it back. Leave yourself enough margin. I got that question from another person, very similar question just yesterday after seeing the webinar, saying it was awesome and enjoying it and wanting to do it, saying, well you know what if I get in the position where I don't refinance the rental Property onto a 30 year fixed rate loan. So if I don't refinance the Property within that 18 month period, or if I don't sell the property within that period, well you're going to end up paying a high interest rate that you should not be paying. Get the freebie, get the teaser rate that's, you know, zero interest rate and don't pay the high interest rate later. Leave yourself enough room, enough margin, enough time to refinance or sell that property beforehand. And ideally you're going to refinance and turn it into a buy and hold property. And that's going to be a great deal because there's a mass migration coming to these suburban properties, millions and millions of people. Folks, when we're talking a year from now, we are going to see how there is. You think there's a shortage of these good little cheap rental properties right now? Just wait a year. There's going to be like a shortage that you won't even believe. Okay. I mean, look, it's a prediction, but I'm pretty sure about this one. So anyway, without further ado, thanks for your questions. Join the webinar tomorrow. Also, if you're looking at our Tax Sale home based business opportunity, you've got the links for that, as I said before, and for the funding webinar. They'll also be in the show notes@jason hartman.com let's get to our guest, my friend Julia. Let's talk about tax sale investing.

It's my pleasure to welcome a returning guest back and that is Julia M. Spencer. She was kind enough to lead our Tax Sale retreat at our Savannah Venture Alliance Mastermind event a while back. She's here to share with us a little bit about tax sale investing, but also, and that's for residential and commercial properties, but also some thoughts about where things are going in this time of tremendous change. Julia, how have you been?

I've been great. Thank you for welcoming back to your show.

Yeah, well, it's good to have you on. It's good to have you on. So just for the people who may not know, I thought maybe we'd start out with just a little very mini, mini course by going over some basics. What are tax sales and what are the ways that investors can profit by getting involved in them? Just give us a little overview of that, if you would.

Yeah, I'll be glad to. For many, many years, what I've been doing is basically tracking whenever government, jurisdictions, counties, cities, it could be special assessment offices of certain areas auction off real estate for unpaid taxes basically. And these jurisdictions still have to collect their taxes and that's basically how they get their money if the owners aren't able to pay. And there is a process for this in every state, different process for every state actually. And yeah, I've basically educated myself on how it's done in the states that I'm interested in and areas and started tracking the sales and started buying properties that way. And that's how I basically grew my portfolio of income properties because a lot of Them I've actually kept. And yeah, you just basically go to the auctions and the properties that are cried out at the auctions are for unpaid taxes. And of course there's a distinction between liens, deeds and certificates and all have different rights for the new owner as well as for the old owner. The transfer process is different in each one case and in each state too. And yeah, so basically I've made it my life work to educate myself on how that's done in all the states and acquire properties at the same time as well.

Excellent. So, and when you say tax, let's just be clear for the listeners who may not know, we're talking about property taxes.

Property taxes as well as special assessment taxes. There's actually another category to this as well.

Good, good stuff. So if they don't pay the special assessment or the base property taxes, then that tax bill goes into default and then it ultimately turns into a deed if they don't pay. And people can either get a return on investment along the way or an actual property maybe as well, right?

That's correct, yes. And people do it for all kinds of different reasons. Some people are in it actually not to either get the property or get a profit on the way or actually, just like you said, in some states, people are banking on the interest or the penalty which is assessed once a property is sold.

Okay, great. Are most people investing for the yield and they're mostly investing in the tax lien or take us through a little bit more about those two different options.

So I have seen people in all kinds of different ideas how they go into this and the reasons for it. A lot of people actually go to the auctions to get property, and these are local people that have seen their neighbor's property go up for sale or something and they want to get it, or they just want to get a house for themselves. So I see a lot of people like that too. There's also a lot of institutional investors, and that's delegates that are sent from banks that are actually tasked to make a certain kind of return on the money that is being deposited with them. And so they go to the states where the penalties are the highest. And they really don't care about getting the real estate, but they are banking on the fact that the original owner is going to pay off the property within the redemption period, which is the period of time that the original owner has to get their property back. And they're basically banking on getting that interest rate or penalty rate, which is very significant compared to other investments. And Then there's people like me that are kind of like in between. I usually buy them for investment, for rental, but I buy a lot more than I could ever use. So most of mine, I just wholesale at the end or sell to other investors, and I use the profits to fix up the one or two that I keep.

Okay, so what you're saying is that you'll buy a larger number of tax liens and then you'll get the income on that lien. That's the interest rate, essentially, during the time. And then you won't take it to the sale. You'll sell that opportunity to another investor and then use those funds to maybe do a remodel or renovation on maybe the smaller number of properties you kept. Right? Is that what you're saying?

Yes, exactly. And there's many different ways to skin the cat on that, too.

I mean, that is such a terrible saying, by the way. You know, I say that saying, that is awful. We gotta get rid of the skinning the cat. Saying that is just awful.

I have a cat and I swear I want to skin him sometime.

Well, that cat just ran away and is now living in fear. Okay. Yeah. Okay, go ahead.

So in terms of. I think you asked me about liens, deeds and certificates and all the differences.

Yeah, I'd like you to go into that in a little more detail. Of course. But finish what you were saying before I got off on the tangent there on the cat.

So there's different kinds of strategies, how people get into tax sale, foreclosure, investing, and. Yeah, those are pretty much the main ones. There's institutional investors, myself, who's kind of like a small single person investor. I'm just trying to get my business moving forward always. And then there's people that actually want to buy properties to live in and to remodel and keep for themselves. So you have a wide spectrum. Oh, and there's other people, too. I mean, people. There's construction companies that just buy them for their clients so that have the access to remodeling assets, tools and materials and people. And then there's lawyers. I've seen a lot of lawyers at these auctions that just know the process. So it's easy for them to make a quick buck here and there, you know, and there's different people. Different people come to these auctions for different reasons.

And when you say come to an auction, how many of the auctions are actually live anymore? And I would assume with virus fears and so forth, a lot less will be in the future. This is all going to move online probably. But you know, I mean, some are online, some are live. What's the percentage now typically?

You know, before this virus scare, it was about 50, 50 for the ones that I've attended. So pretty much half were in person auctions. You actually had to go to in person and put down your ID and you get a number. And it's the old traditional way of going to any auction. The rest was online. And I can see that it's going to all move online here, probably with a short order, since it's. It can be done and people do it that way now. But remember, in some states, such as in Georgia right here, the law actually states it has to be done in person. So, you know, it's just. I don't know what's going to happen, but I think people are going to rethink those laws here soon.

Yeah, I think you're definitely right about that. Now, with these different jurisdictions around the country, different jurisdictions are more desirable than others. They pay different yields. They're easier or harder to work with. Tell us about that a little bit and maybe share some of your favorite.

So, yeah, we have a jurisdiction is what I call basically a state. And it could be also Puerto Rico and some of the other outlying areas as well that belong to the United States because they have auctions in those, too. So in terms of the jurisdictions, some of them you mentioned are indeed more desirable than others. And it all goes down to how easy it is for an investor to get a property within a shorter period of time or how lenient the government will be on the original owner to get their property back. So what I'm saying is, as I mentioned earlier, there's a redemption period. There's a time between the point when a property is sold on an auction and the point where the investor that bought that property at the auction can claim it for themselves. There's a redemption period. This period is usually a period where nothing can be done to the property by the new investor. Like, they can't go there. They can't use it for rent. They can't fix it up. They have no access rights at all, no possession. And that's the time that the original owner has to basically buy the property back from the investor with either the penalty rate, the interest rate, or the actual full amount that the investor paid. And so in some states, that period is very short, which is very good for the investor. And in some states it's very, very long. And you have to jump through a lot of loopholes. You have to hire attorneys to do certain kinds of paperwork processes. And in other states, it's really fast and really easy. And you've asked me to share some of my favorites. So I like my own state. Right here in Georgia, we have a 20% penalty, for example, which means that if I purchase a property at a tax sale on like today, basically, and the original owner comes back the next day and pays me off, and even if it's been a minimum amount that I've paid and I didn't bid the property up very high, the original owner still has to pay 20%. So in terms of return on a yearly basis, that's a huge return. That's not 20% if you can make it in one day. And those states are very desirable that have penalty rates that apply from day one.

For example, when you talk about the penalty rate, you talk about for the person, you're saying that from the perspective of the person who's in default, they have to pay a penalty, but that penalty makes your yield higher as the investor, Right?

Yes, that's correct.

Right. And just so people understand more broadly, let's just back up one big step. Okay. When someone doesn't pay their tax bill, the municipality is basically, they need money, so they're looking to finance. They're not getting the money from the tax bills. So what they do, not always, but a lot of them, they basically allow investors to buy these at auction, and then the investor gives that money to the municipality. Right. And then that finances it for them. So they don't have a big shortfall in cash. Hey, the government needs their money. We know governments don't stick to budgets very well, so they're always looking for money. And this is one way that they can raise money is by allowing investors to purchase these liens, correct?

Yes. Got it. And I guess the next thing that makes a state or jurisdiction or municipality very desirable is the fact that some have very short redemption periods. So an investor can go in and purchase a property for very, very cheap and immediately foreclose on it, or very quickly and then take possession and make it rental or sell it or do whatever they want to do with it. And so that's a really, really easy way to get cheap property very quickly. And so some states redemption periods are very short.

So here's the thing. Like most things in life, the easier it is to do something, the more competition you're going to have, the harder it is to do something, the more barriers there are, your competition is going to thin out. Do you like the jurisdictions that make it easy for you as the investor, where you're probably going to face more competition from other investors trying to do deals? Or do you like the harder jurisdictions where it's a hassle, but there's probably going to be less competition? Sometimes this is counterintuitive. So that's why I want to bring that up.

This is a really good question, and I love that question, actually, Julia, I.

Always ask good questions.

Because it actually really drives the point home of why I even do this. Because it's all about basically the hunt for me anyways. I'm trying to get good deals and I'm trying to eliminate competition. So what I do as investor, this is advanced taxable foreclosure investing, basically, is I'll find the little niche areas that my competition hasn't discovered yet. You gotta be really quick about this. And things change very quickly, too. And of course, as you know, I have my YouTube channel, my website. People watch my stuff and they hear me talk where I've been. And of course, next sale, all my students are in my competition, which I don't mind.

I have that flaw too. Don't feel too bad. I create my own competition too, by teaching people. But my broader goal in life is to provide a service for the world. And I know yours is too. And you know, look, the pie is pretty big. It's not unlimited, but it's pretty big in the, in, you know, in the real estate world. There's a lot of different ways to make money in this business.

And of course there's other ways to, you know, make your. Your road a little bit shorter to the end goal, basically. And that is there's many numbers of ways to work with your competition or to team up with your competition or to eliminate your competition, depending on what kind of method that particular state uses. For example, let me just give you a really brief example. I have a friend in Nevada who goes to tax sales out there, and they have a lottery system. So basically everybody puts a name in a hat, and the person that's first pulled from that hat is the first opportunity to get that property for the price as it's set. So there's no up bid, but there's also no competition. You just kind of have to be lucky being in Nevada, basically. But what he does is he basically pays 30 or 40 people to put their names in the hat, and each gets a couple hundred dollars or a hundred dollars. And so all of a sudden, he's got two thirds of the people at this lottery auction with names in there. That are basically his people. So he's going to win pretty much all of them.

Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. I'm not sure if they'd be okay with that if they found out, but, hey, people do it.

Well, no, these are people that are working for him that he's hired, he pays the money, and they agree that they don't have the money to buy the property, but they don't mind making $100 in an hour.

Right, right. Okay. So that's to buy a lien or a deed or. We're really just talking about liens now, so let's go into deeds as soon as we can. If you want to finish up on.

The difference between liens and deeds is really only that at the end of the purchase or the auction or the win for the investor, there is a redemption period or there's no redemption period. So if you purchase a deed, you really have the property clear and full and clear, basically. But I always say that even if you go to a deed auction to just wait a little while and make sure that there wasn't any mistakes made during the auction, because I've seen it where people have bought deeds and they went off and started remodeling and putting all that money in the property, only to realize that the county made a mistake in advertisement and the original owner discovered it, and then they had to reverse the sale and the investor lost all their money. So really, there's not a whole lot of difference between liens and deeds except for the redemption period and maybe the price, because deeds usually sell for much higher than liens.

Yeah. Okay. And that's because you're certain as the investor that you're going to get the property, right?

Yes, for the most part. I mean, there's risk in everything.

Yeah, right, right. There are complexities to everything, and that's. That's for sure true. Well, anything else you want us to know? Look, listeners, this is a complex area. It's like learning a whole nother part of real estate, and there's a lot to it. And Julia does a great job educating people, and there's only so much we can cover here. And of course, we'll have you back on the show for more, but we just wanted to kind of give you a little taste on this because we haven't talked about it much lately since our event in Savannah, Georgia. Anything else you want people to know, just in general?

No, I think now, just now is a really, really good time to get educated about it, especially if you're sitting at home and not really being able to go to work. Now is the time to learn because I feel like the lists and the sales are going to go up astronomically after all of this is done with the virus.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. And I think the thought is that it'll probably slow down for a little while as many areas have moratoriums on foreclos, then all of that will represent sort of pent up supply, if you will, in the system. And then when those moratoriums lift, if they have a moratorium, not everybody has one, then there will be a lot more opportunities in the marketplace. So very interesting. Good stuff, good stuff. And how can people find you?

My website is juliamspencer.com I have a number of audiobooks that I sell, but also a lot of my information is actually available to watch for free on YouTube and that's also my YouTube channel is just my name juliam spencer. There's some 600 plus videos for people to watch on just about anything related specifically to tax, sale, foreclosure, investing.

Excellent Julia. Thanks for joining us.

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