1456: Billionaire Investor Sam Zell, Post-Virus Economy, Real Estate

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1456. 1450 6000. Thank you for joining us today. As we are going to talk a little bit in the new way, the technological way, the new COVID 19 methodology. We're going to talk with Sam Zell virtually. But this is like double virtual. I'll explain in a moment, but first I've been meaning to share with you a quote, a quote that a friend of mine said. And I thought it was pretty good. My friend Pat, I was on a mastermind meeting, a virtual mastermind meeting, as I have been in all day today and I have all day tomorrow. You know, I gotta tell you, these are pretty good. You don't have to do all these in person meetings sometimes these are pretty good. I'm impressed. Considering that I'm spending $35,000 a year to be a member of these two masterminds, it's pretty good for virtual. Okay, so here is the quote and this quote. I'll just tee it up for you a little bit. It implies that in the world of real estate, investing, in the world of life, career, fitness, education, romance, anything. In other words, it applies to everything. Everything, Everything. Right. We gotta get moving. What I used to always say, and I remember many years ago when I was in traditional real estate and I was a young kid and I was working at ReMax where I became, I must say, a little pat on the back, number 59 in the entire world for ReMax at age 24. That wasn't too bad for a kid who moved to that area, to Irvine and why didn't. Well, I didn't move to Irvine then, I guess. Yeah. But moved to Orange county and didn't know anybody except my own mother. Didn't know a single person, did it totally from scratch. In doing that throughout my career, like many of us, I would have slumps I would go into a sales slump. And now many of us find ourselves in a slump. And this one was not caused by our own doing. These were external forces. And these external forces that shut down huge parts of the economy have put us into a slump. But one of the things I remember that would get me out of the slump was to simply talk to people. Yep, talk to people. And more specifically, I mean, take action. Prospect. Get on the phone, call potential customers. Call potential clients. In the old days, go out door knocking. Yes. Knock on doors and see if people want to sell their home. Right. In traditional real estate, hey, that's what we did in the good old days. We did have cars back then and telephones and stuff. But, you know, but yeah, door knocking was a very good way to get business. And what I learned is that that was the ultimate way to get out of the slump. And so I developed my favorite quote, and my quote was, action eliminates doubt. Action eliminates doubt. And if you are having doubts right now, which you probably are, I think we all are. We're all going through a period of uncertainty, of doubts, of concern. If you are going through a time like that, then the best cure for it is to take action, because action eliminates doubt. So my friend Pat was opening up one of our mastermind calls the other day for one of the two mastermind groups I'm in now, besides my own, the Venture Alliance Mastermind, but two other groups. And he said, he said this, and it was interesting. He said, you notice that when you are in your car and you're in one place and you want to go to another place and you look it up on the map, usually on your phone, you don't even use the GPS built into your car. Most of the time. You just do it on your phone. I think that's what I do. I don't even. Why. Why pay the $3,000 extra for the GPS built in the car? I never even use the thing. And you know, what you notice is you. You pick the location you want to go to, and then you push, you know, get directions and it maps it out for you. But the GPS doesn't work until when, until you start moving. You know, it can't tell you which way to go without knowing where you are. And the only. Well, it knows where you are, but it doesn't know which way, which direction is your momentum. Right. So it can't really give you any information that's very useful until you start moving. The GPS really only works when you're moving right. And You've definitely noticed this when maybe you're using your gps. When you're walking, it really doesn't work very well at all because walking is only about four miles an hour. And you gotta really start moving to have the GPS kind of work for you. And maybe you realize the GPS says, oh, now I know where he's going. Now it's actually in the other direction. So you got to turn around on that sidewalk or make a U turn on that road, because the GPS only works when you're moving. So you gotta get moving. You gotta do something. Take action, because action eliminates doubt. Now, in the typical sense, you probably know what I mean, you know, take some action, learn some things, reach out to some people. If you're thinking about real estate investing, of course, talk to your investment counselor at our company. Listen to some more podcasts, reach out, have them connect you with some local market specialists, some lenders to talk about financing. Take action. Because what you'll find is that if you've been kind of waiting on the sidelines and you're thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm paralyzed by everything that's going on in the world. Well, you're going to find that there is a large segment of the world that is not paralyzed. And they are taking action and they are moving and life is going on. Life is happening. Now, I want to do, before we get to Sam Zell, okay, the billion, the multi billionaire real estate investor Sam Zell. I want to take this a step further and say, and, you know, I'm sure many of you have noticed this too. And I remember at times in my life when I have been depressed or really just not doing well, okay? Really in a, in a rough patch, okay? The best kind of action you can take sometimes is not necessarily action for yourself, but it's action for someone or something else. And I remember one time in my life, a long time ago, I used to teach Junior Achievement as a volunteer. I would go into a class one day a week and I would teach the kids about personal finance and economics. I would go into the economics class and the, you know, the teacher would take the, the period off and sit at the desk and, you know, correct papers or whatever, and I would be doing the class, right? And, and that was fun. But they had this special program at Junior Achievement that you had to apply for. And it was really kind of the highlight of my Junior Achievement volunteering where you could actually go in and teach at juvenile hall. And I did that, and that was really cool. That was Just like extra fulfilling. I remember right before that time when I was scheduled to go in, and that was like every day you did it for.

I think.

I think I did it for two weeks straight, like every day, you know, during that time. I remember right before that started that program, I was feeling pretty down, you know, and it picked me up a lot. And one of the things that is certainly true about human nature is that it is impossible. I mean, I don't know, check me on this. Do you think I'm wrong? But I think this is true. It's impossible to be depressed when you are focusing outside of yourself. And conversely, if you are focused. Focused. If you are depressed or you are down about something, you are always focused internally. Okay. Now, even if there's an external event, like if you're worried about the virus, right. And that's an external event, obviously, unless it's affected you directly. Right. Which it probably hasn't most of the time. Just the odds are it hasn't affected you directly. Right. In terms of your own health, if you're worried about what's happening to the world, but it's mostly how it's going to affect your own life. You're focused inward. And it's impossible to be depressed if you're focusing outside of yourself. If you are, I would argue that you're always focused internally. So that's the focus. So in other words, do something for someone or something else. And I'll give you an example. Yesterday I was walking the dog and. And I discovered a family of ibis birds. And they were crossing the street, fairly busy street. There were, I think there were eight little chicks and two parent birds. And they were totally gonna get wiped. This whole family was gonna get wiped out by cars. I mean, it was terrible. So I started blocking the traffic and stopping the cars, just, you know, getting in the middle of the road. And what happened is the little babies, the little Chiclets, they couldn't get up the curb in the middle of the street, up, you know, to get over the island, to get to the other side. Every time I'd go over, you know, I was gonna just pick them up and move them and take them across the street. I couldn't get near them. The parents were. No way. They weren't having it. So I called the police and the police came out and didn't stay for very long. And they said animal control would not come, they would not help because these birds are plentiful in this area. Great. So. So they're plentiful. So animal Control doesn't care. Oh well, so anyway, the policeman was there, he stopped the traffic. He, you know, he had the lights flashing on his car and was directing traffic around this. And then, you know, he left. I went back outside a little later and no sign of the birds anywhere. It was, was dark by then. And then this morning I went out at about 6:30am and there were the birds again and they were again in the street trying to cross the street. I started stopping traffic again this morning, spent like another hour on that. And I saw one of the Chiclets get hit by a car sadly right in front of me. But wouldn't you know it, as I was stopping traffic, one guy, actually this wonderful man, pulled over and he got out of the car and he didn't say much of anything at all. He just started going over to the birds and I said, hey, you know, can you help? And he says, I'm a bird handler. What do you know, what would be the luck of that? And he knew how to get near those birds without the parents attacking. And he picked up the chicks and moved them off to the side. And there was one that fell into the storm drain probably last night because some of them huddled in there and he got a fishing pole and his baseball cap out and rescued the one little chicklet and put it over with a family. So that was really wonderful, really wonderful. But that whole experience of saving the birds, you know, I was just totally focused on that last night and this first thing this morning after waking up and you know, I just forgot about every other care in the world because I was just totally focused on, on this thing. And as people were pulling over as I was stopping traffic this morning and last night and some were getting out of their cars, they were focused on it. And here we were in the middle of this crisis that we're all going through and you see all these spots where people are focused on these community projects and sort of oriented on things together and there's a common goal and it's just a great feeling. So anyway, enough of that. That's interesting story, but hey, without further ado, let's hear what Sam Zell has to say. Now this is double virtual. What do I mean by that? I'm going to play for you an audio track and this is from Bloomberg Markets and Finance and it's good interview. I suggest you check it out. I'll put a link in the show notes and let me just play a couple of parts of this. It's a fairly long interview. Sam Zell says Some stuff that makes a lot of sense. And then he says something that just doesn't make any sense at all. So let's go through it. Here we go.

Sam Zell, Warren Buffett isn't buying anything yet.

Are you speaking of the stock market? Of course.

No, I'm just watching what's going on and not much is going on.

What do you see?

I don't know the answer. Yeah, Eric, I just. All I know is that despite the fact that we've been in lockdown for six or seven weeks, there's very little activity, very little transactional activity, very little opportunity to do anything. I think everybody is in kind of a, you know, deer in the headlights kind of stature at the moment. And at least so far just sitting here watching and we're not seeing anything happen.

So Sam is talking about deal flow in the commercial real estate market. And he is a big office and multifamily investor. And you know, I'm sure he's in other asset classes too. I don't know that much about his portfolio, but I know really office at least was his biggest thing. I'm not sure of the allocation of his portfolio, but big in the office space environment. I'm sure he has retail as well. Actually, I think he talks about retail. So yes, he does have that. And if you're going to own office, you're going to have some retail, of course, just naturally is a mixed use project really. The market's just kind of seized up in the commercial real estate market. So let's go on.

I think that is. Is it because prices aren't low enough yet?

Oh, I think that rather than referring to it as prices aren't low enough, I think that there's been very little opportunity at price discovery. My guess is that those sellers that wanted to sell still remember the prices that were available seven or eight weeks ago. The buyers are looking at a very different world.

So, you know, I always talk about price discovery and what an important thing that is. And that's, you know, one of the major functions of free market capitalism to create price discovery. Price discovery, very important thing. And isn't it interesting to hear Sam Zell, a huge real estate mogul, multi billionaire, talk about the market in such a short term time frame. That's absolutely fascinating. I'm not sure you really caught what he just said, but he talks about how the buyers and sellers are viewing the market from the way it was seven or eight weeks ago. That's seven or eight weeks. Did you really catch the significance of that? Who Talks about the market in such a short term time frame is that normally you'd say last year or five years ago or 10 years ago, especially when talking about real estate, because it's a much slower cycle. But now we are in a different world. He's talking about seven or eight weeks ago. Like it matters. Oh, gosh. Perspective, folks, perspective. It's absolutely, absolutely crazy.

And expecting to see significant discounts. Where we were seven weeks ago and when you got that biggest spread, nothing happens. And I think that's an accurate description.

What about you? What do you need to see before you feel motivated, inclined, even excited about putting capital to work?

Well, I think we're all faced with an extraordinary level of uncertainty. Uncertainty on how the reopening will go, uncertain as to when the reopening will happen, uncertain about how people will respond. How soon will anybody get on an airplane, how soon will anybody stay in a hotel? How soon will anybody go to a mall? The fact that these places may be open doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be doing business. And so I think with that level of uncertainty, rather than people taking action, I think everybody is sitting on the sidelines waiting for more clarification.

Sam, you've been through a few cycles. Every cycle ends with a crisis of sorts. And then questions uncertainty. How does this level of uncertainty compare with past cycles?

Oh, I don't think there's any comparison. I mean, past cycles have all been financial. You know, whether it was the Great recession, you know, of 07, 08 and 09, the question was, you know, when do we get financial recovery? You go back into 73, 74, 81. They were all financial scenarios over building other challenges. But this is a challenge that we have no frame of reference for, number one. Number two, the scale of it is just enormous. I mean, I don't think we've ever, you know, even during the Great Recession of 207, 8 and 9, there were parts of the world that were doing fine and other parts of the world that were suffering. Certainly a number of the emerging markets came through that whole period very strongly. I think in this particular environment that we're in right now, the problem is universal and we just don't have any, we don't have any frame of reference. We don't have any history that we can go back to and say, aha, well, this is the way it will be. And where in effect, somebody can take a position one way or the other as to which way it will be.

People are taking that position amazingly every day. There may not be enough price discovery for the kinds of investments you want to make. But there's still plenty of liquidity in public markets, Sam, given what you just described, the world being in uncharted territory.

So stock markets, the stock market versus real estate deals, right? Lots of liquidity in the stock market, obviously. And remember my rule, right? I've always said this, liquidity creates volatility. A lot of investors see liquidity as an advantage. I believe you should really view it as a disadvantage because liquidity creates volatility. So in commercial real estate, Sam Zell's talking about how there's really just no deal flow. Everybody's kind of sitting on the sidelines and there's just, you know, almost no transaction volume happening at all. Now in residential, that's completely different. As you know, we've talked about residential definitely chugging along. But this spring buying season for traditional owner occupied homes, that was hugely impacted by this because people were staying put, right? They weren't, they weren't looking at houses. But the industry is adapting quickly and the, the virtual showings and all the virtual stuff are, are picking up. And the tech is really getting better. By the way, you know, we've talked a lot about self management and Zillow has I think, done a great job, seemingly done a great job. You know, I haven't really looked into this too deeply yet in expanding their tools for landlords. And so self management just keeps getting easier and easier and easier. And the level of friction with these virtual showings keeps declining and declining and declining. And remember, all these efficiencies stay after the pandemic ends. All these efficiencies of online learning, all these efficiencies of telemedicine and tele, veterinary medicine, you know, car shopping. And I'm getting emails, I'm on these car dealers email list and I'm getting emails that say touchless delivery of your car, making it easier to shop online. Well, thank God, because I tell you, I'm sick of going to a dealership and sitting down and playing this dumb game every time I get a new car, you know, and spending hours doing it. You know, when I, when I inquired about new cars in maybe January or December, because I was kind of starting to look, you know, it's like, oh, when can you come in? Well, I don't really want to come in, okay? I know what I want and I just want a good deal and I don't want to sit there for three hours while you go back and forth with your manager and play this stupid Game. Well, now, guess what? That's disappearing. And you know what else? It's more efficient for the car dealership, too, okay? So the consumer wins and the car dealership wins. So remember, friction costs money, okay? When you reduce friction, you save money for everybody. You increase the speed of money, the velocity of money, which is good, but also inflationary. We've talked about that before. But you also increase the size of the economy in general when you reduce friction. So on one hand that, you know, that's one of the very good things coming out of this crisis. Efficiencies are increasing dramatically just everywhere you look. It's one of the wonderful side benefits. You know, every crisis has opportunities with it, and that's definitely one of the opportunities here. Okay, let's get back to Sam.

Raise for you. No frame of reference. As you said, the public market valuations make sense to you.

I'm not sure that public valuations actually reflect the reality of what's going on. I think that the public markets have historically been a reflection on the expectations of the future. So we have a lot of people betting one way or the other on the future. They're also betting generally from a diminished perspective. So the market went down 25 or 30%. It's come back maybe half of that. But I just don't think that anybody has any certainty. And that's why we're seeing such incredible volatility. I mean, we've seen volatility that we've never seen before. We've seen 1,000 points in the Dow in one day, backward up 500, down 500. We don't have any reference, we don't have any frame of reference for that kind of volatility. And so as a result, it's like a little bit like the game musical chairs. You know, everybody in the market knows that the music is playing. And while the music is playing, they gotta walk around. But they also know that there's gonna be one less chair when the music stops.

And that music is playing because the government and the Fed are stimulating like crazy. And you know what? This whole thing, just like the last, like The Great Recession, 10, 12 years ago, this whole thing just shows us over and over again that people that take big risk, it just pays off because they're going to get a bailout. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it is, okay? The people that take the big risk and do the most flamboyant things and spend, spend, spend and get Big and go into debt and grow, grow, grow. Even if it's debt fueled growth that even doesn't make sense, they get rewarded. Again, not a, not a. It's a moral hazard, frankly. It is a moral hazard. But look at who's getting the bailouts now. Everybody who's over leveraged is getting the bailout and everybody who is more conservative. The reason you think they're okay is because you can't hear the dogs that don't bark. They could have been a much bigger business, they could have been a much bigger investor if they would have taken more risk, taken more action, done more growth. They're smaller and not newsworthy because they didn't do that. And so the last decade or the last two or three decades, they didn't have much growth. And so they're just sitting on the sidelines, you know, being a smaller fish in the game. And you're not hearing about them because it's not newsworthy. There's nothing much to talk about. But what you are hearing about is all the ones who fueled their growth like crazy and did stuff that might even be considered somewhat reckless or at least rationally reckless. And yep, they're getting all the bailouts. It's certainly not fair, but it is the way it is.

Therefore, their focus is all on how do I make sure I get one of those shares. I don't think that's so dissimilar from where I think people who are involved in the market are actually making decisions.

So even though the future is as unpredictable as it's ever been before, Sam, every investor has to tilt one way or the other. Tilt optimistic, tilt, pessimistic tilt, tilt bullish, tilt bearish. You have to have a view of sorts on how long the pandemic lasts, how it changes human behavior. Right on.

Go ahead. I'm not sure I accept the premise that you're putting out.

Okay.

Matter of fact, I think that what we're seeing right now is the fact that nobody is doing anything. Nobody is taking a view. That's why there are no transactions. Can't confuse the stock market, which is slow back and forth of thousands or millions of people's betting to what's going on in the real world. In the real world, transactions aren't getting done. In the real world, transactions are getting called off. In the real world, people are saying, you know, I don't know, so therefore I'm not going to do this. And so I think that, you know, I don't think everybody has to make a bet and I.

Do you think there's even one deal going on out there in the whole country where some big institutional investor is buying a shopping center right now or buying an office building right now or, or even selling a shopping center or an office building? I bet there are many who think they need to sell their shopping centers and office buildings for sure. And they're high density apartment buildings, they're multifamily. That's high density. Because that stuff is gonna just. It's just gonna suffer greatly. We've talked about it before, but it's gonna get a lot worse. So, yeah, those transactions just, it's just completely seized. I would imagine there's almost zero transaction volume, like Sam is seeming to indicate here.

I think a lot of people are not making bets. And that's, of course, you know, contributing to the uncertainty that I described.

Sam, do you think we'll get back to what people would call normal life? And if not, what kinds of changes do you think we'll see in habits, in consumer behavior, for example?

Well, I think that in the near term, and I think I probably define the near term as the next two to four years, I think we'll all see a lot of changes. I think that the way office spaces are laid out with people currently sitting on top of each other, I don't think that's likely to keep going. I think that we're likely to see events, social events, whether it be baseball games or football games or dances or whatever. I think we're going to see more social distancing than we've been accustomed to. I think if we end up with a period of time where people gain confidence that we've, quote, unquote, beat the deal, then I think we'll slowly start to recreate the life that we previously had. But I don't see any scenario where come Monday morning everybody's going to go back to where they were before. I think that this has been an extraordinary shock to our culture and shock to our system and shock to the world. And the world is trying to figure out what to do. And I don't think anybody really knows yet.

Sam, how does an economy function? How does a society, for that matter, function? You know, on the basis of what you just described, if we're potentially living with social distancing for years and the open plan offices that we've gotten used to are a thing of the past, and baseball games, as you say, are a thing of the past, and going to the bar is a thing of the past. And convenience, easy, cheap access to Everything from food to travel, you know, kind of goes out the window, at least under the scenario that you've painted.

There are a lot of inflationary pressures in that question he's asking. Just notice all those inflationary pressures, right? And notice all the need for increased suburban homes and larger homes. People needing to move out of their tiny little high rise condos because they need to work at home. There is one good thing for the office space market, but it's mostly disastrous otherwise because people won't be working in offices very much anymore. But the ones that do, the tenants will require more office space to house fewer people. So that actually creates more demand for office space. Because I say there will be be new laws and rules or just company policies at the very minimum, or just employee desires, even, you know, the bottom of the food chain, right, that they don't want to work in these open office plans where they're crammed together like other people. Now there's all kinds of surveillance technology that's coming too. That's super scary. Big Brother's watching you, you know. Georgia Orwell, 1984. Here we are. But you know, a lot of that says, okay, the prices of products are going to go up because it's going to be more expensive for companies if they've got to have these larger offices to house less people. You know, if the old plan was you needed 250 square feet per employee, which I believe is a metric that's used something like that. Because remember, I've had several offices that I've designed and operated for for my companies. And now the new rule might be that you have to have 800 square feet per employee in the office space. Wider hallways, larger elevators, more elevators, all kinds of crazy stuff, right? That's all inflationary. That is expensive. That means they're going to have to raise prices to be able to afford to stay in business. If the concerts can still happen, well, maybe they can only sell half the number of tickets now, so the ticket has to go up in price by double or the economics don't work. Inflationary, inflationary, inflationary. We'll wrap this up in a moment here, but let me just. Let's just get a little more of. Let's get Sam's response to that.

How do things work? How does anybody pay for that?

Well, first of all, I think you're taking what I've said and expanding it a little beyond what I said.

I might have done that. That's true.

You went from one end to the other. And all I'm saying is that everybody's activities going forward will be affected by what we've all been through. So maybe if a restaurant has 150 seats, as approved by the health department, maybe it opens in at 25% and then it goes to 30, and then it goes to 40, and over a period of time, eventually it's back to 100 in the same.

Do you realize how inflationary that is? If the rest, I mean, restaurants are already a very thin margin business, right. So if a restaurant can only operate at 25 or 50% of capacity, I mean, the price of going out to lunch or dinner has to just skyrocket or you're not going to have any supply. It's supply demand shock. The supply just won't be there if they can't afford to be in business.

I think it's likely that in sporting events we'll start out with less density than we previously had before. I think we'll start out with less density in the bars than we had before. And then slowly, as people's confidence grows, so too will we move more toward wherever we were before.

All right, let's wrap it up with that because we are running out of time. But one of the things we didn't get to in that piece is where Sam Zell, I mean, you know, he made sense on everything, but this was just a completely dumb statement. It sounded like he was just kind of talking his book, as it were. And the interviewer asks him about his apartment portfolio and he says, everybody's paying rent. In other words, not everybody. He didn't mean that. I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but he says there's been virtually no change in rent payments versus last year at this time or any other month. In general, the rent collections are about the same as normal now. There's no month where you ever get 100% of your rents. There's always someone who doesn't pay okay, especially when you have thousands of apartment units. But then he asks him about single family homes and he makes this completely dumb statement. And I don't know if he even thought about it or he was just talking his book or what, but he says something to the effect of, well, you know, if I have an apartment portfolio and I have one unit vacant, only a small percentage of my portfolio is vac vacant. You know, this, this is not what he said exactly, but it's the same concept. And then he says, and if I have a single family home and it goes vacant, it's 100% vacant. Well, where did you get that stupid comparison. Sam, come on, man, you're brilliant. You know better than that. Because you know, you would have, you'd have to compare the same number of units in single family homes to the same number of units in apartments. Now granted, the apartments might be a little cheaper, so maybe you can get overall 25% more so your vacancy ratio changes ever so slightly. But it's just a silly comparison. It didn't make any sense at all. So anyway, look, I wanted to talk to you today about some other things, but I went on a little bit long at the intro. So next week we have got to get to some really good stuff where we talk about another one of my predictions coming true. Imagine that. Yes, another one is coming true. I told you there'd be a big rental assistance program. And now we are seeing those at the city level and at the state level and at the federal level. It's coming, folks. And this is more and more socialism and more and more Keynesianism. But you know what, dear landlords, investors, who cares? You, you're going to benefit from it. So stick with us and listen for more and take advantage of all this craziness in the government. Philosophy and practicality often diverge and this again is one of those times. But it's another time where you will benefit. And you can be complaining all the way to the bank. You can complain all the way to the bank. So we'll discuss more of that next week because tomorrow is Flashback Friday. Let's wrap it up for today. If you need us, reach out. We're here for you. We're here to guide you, to assist you on your path to creating wealth through the most historically proven asset class in the entire world, income property, especially single family, suburban residential income property. Wow. This asset class is the shining star right now. It really is, as everything else is just it's being devastated. This is the shining star. The home is the center of the universe and people need larger homes and roommates are splitting up and people are leaving high density environments. And you are going to continue to benefit from this trend. You ain't seen nothing yet because there is a tsunami, a tidal wave coming at this asset class. And most of you listening already own a lot of it. Some of you don't reach out to us. Let's help you get started. 1-800-hartman on the phone or jason hartman.com and we will be here tomorrow with a Flashback Friday episode. And then all next week we'll dive into some of these other topics. Happy investing. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show's specific website and our general website, hartmanmedia.com for appropriate disclaimers and terms of service. Remember that guest opinions are their own, and if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice in any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you're using and write a review for the show. We would very much appreciate that, and be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.