1509 FBF: Improve Your Negotiating Skills with Stuart Diamond Author of ‘Getting More: How to Negotiate to Achieve Your Goals’

So my name is Mitch Russo and I'm getting started in real estate investing and I came to this conference to learn more about what Jason does. After listening to his podcast and loving it for as many months as I have, I figured it was finally time to meet the man behind the voice and explore his methods for real estate investing, which so far have been fabulous. I love the way he ties information together. I love the way he sources other people to present their way of doing things as well. So for me, this conference is eye opening, it's fascinating and it will lead me to making much better real estate investments, I'm sure.

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My pleasure to welcome Stuart diamond to the show. He is the author of Getting how to Negotiate to Achieve youe Goals in the Real World. I think you'll like this approach. It's taught at the Wharton School for the past 13 years and has achieved some very high honors. And Stuart, welcome. How are you?

Thank you. How are you?

Good. So you're coming to us today from Philadelphia, right?

I am.

Fantastic. Well, tell us about the book. You're making a lot of inroads with this book. Number five on the New York Times Best Seller list, number one on the Wall Street Journal and USA Today. Congratulations on your success.

Thank you. The book has a new model of human interaction which says that perceptions and emotions are much more important in getting agreements than the usual power and logic. That valuing the pictures in the heads of the other party produces four times as much value as the usual way people do it, which includes threats, logic, my where the Highway, Batman, Take it or leave It, Walking out, and even Win Win or interest based negotiation. I've taught 30,000 people in 45 over 20 years, from country presidents to secretaries. I've collected millions of pages of documentation and I've seen clearly that the proposal in getting more works a lot better. In fact, Google has now accepted this model to train all 30,000 of its employees. The Wall Street Journal says this is the best book to read for your career this year. And it's done everything from help people do billion dollar deals to get their kids to willingly go to bed and brush their teeth. So it's meant as an interactive. Every human interaction is affected by it.

Yeah. What you say makes a lot of sense from a logical perspective, pardon the pun, because it's often been Said that people make decisions based on emotion and then later rationalize them with logic. You'd probably agree with that, right?

Right. Well, it's the human connection. Let me give you a simple example. I had a former student took an airplane up from Houston, Philadelphia in a snowstorm last winter. When the plane landed four hours late and the rest of the passengers were snarling at the flight crew. This former student noticed this, went up to the flight crew, apologized for anyone else's behavior and said to them, you know, it must be a real drag to work an extra four hours on a day like today. When he got off the plane, they gave him $600. They gave him a completely free ticket only person on the plane to get that because he made a human connection with them. When you make a human connection with somebody, they're six times more likely to give you what you want. And so the right answer to the statement I hate you is tell me more. The right answer to the statement I like your competitors better is what do you like about them more and what do you don't like about me? It's a question impossible not to answer and gives you a real competitive advantage to find out the pictures in their heads. Whether you're in real estate or whether you are driving down the street in the store on any kind of a job, that finding the pictures in the heads of the other party and using that in negotiations creates more wealth and more value than virtually anything else people could do. Google tells me that the return on investment in the first 30 days is 5,000% from using these tools, which makes this the most profitable activity that Google does.

Well, Stuart, how can we discover those pictures in other people's heads so that we can appeal to them?

Well, first of all, you can ask them, you can do Internet research or you can guess. You guess right, they'll be happy. Guess wrong, they'll tell you what's right. But I'm in there trying to find out. I wish I knew you better. I'd like to know you better so I can find out how to meet your needs. You ask me if my proposal, I have no idea what my proposal is. I don't know what your needs are, so I can guess. But wouldn't you rather tell me directly what your needs are? And so that's sort of how I teach people to negotiate better in any situation. I have a nine year old son, Alexander. I don't threaten him. I don't say, if you don't clean your room today, you can't have Legos. I Say, Alexander, there's nothing better that I want to do for you today than buy. Help me buy you Legos. In fact, I buy Legos for boys with clean rooms. Are you such a boy? He likes that a lot better. I do things for clients who treat me similarly. Are you such a client? I frequent stores who pay attention to my needs and return merchandise easily. That seems to be defective. Are you such a store? It's a way that you give people the decision in which you value them, but you also quote certain kinds of standards of behavior. Another way that you add tremendous wealth is that you find out things that are different between the parties and you trade them. And it's not just in the deal, it's everybody's billions. Synapses CEO of a major company in Philadelphia once told me the most important thing he ever did for his major client in a 20 year business relationship was to pick up the client, CEOs mother in law at the Philadelphia airport one Saturday night. Has nothing to do with any deal, but it affects every deal. Guy I know from Silicon Valley had a multimillions. Our client couldn't get the account, found out that the client's teenage daughter was having computer problems, invested half a day, went over to the guy's house, toured his daughter, fixed the computer, got the deal. And so the more you know about the other side, tangible, intangible in the deal, outside the deal, the more connections you can make. And one of the big problems is that people don't know enough about the other side.

That is really truly a way to think differently. That's the first chapter in your book, Thinking Differently. And I mean, I was really amazed at that story you told about the airplane. No passenger has probably ever approached a flight crew that way. That's got to be so refreshing for them. It's just amazing.

Yes, A woman brought back a plane by realizing that it didn't matter that the incoming plane was late and that the gate agent said no, she realized the decision maker was the pilot. And so she went over to the window, caught the pilot's eye and looked. Plaintiff dropped her bags to the floor, held her boyfriend's hand. The pilot brought back the plane. She went on to Paris for the lifetime vacation with her boyfriend. The stuff is invisible unless you see it. Unless you see it for the first time. This process I used, by the way, to solve the writers strike in Hollywood, which is close to, I guess, where a lot of readers are listeners are in California. What happened was about 3 years ago I got a call from Ari Emanuel, who's probably the most prominent agent in Hollywood. He's the role model for the TV show Entourage and the brother of Rahm, who was White House chief of staff now mayor of Chicago. Writers had been on strike for three months. No new material on tv, no contract for a year. And they wanted some advice from me on another interminable meeting they were going to have with the studio heads. What substantive issues, royalty rates, et cetera. I said, forget that stuff. Go to the meeting and ask the studio heads three questions. Question number one, you guys happy? We're not happy. Question number two, you making any money? Weren't making any money. Question number three, if you had to do it over again, how would you do it? Took 30 minutes to restart the negotiation. Took two days to get an agreement because they made a human connection with these guys, and that is really key. And I can say two things about this. One, it's not rocket science. And two, unless you already know how to do it, it's invisible. You don't see it unless you already know it. But all across the way, somebody squawks at you. There's a service provider. Maybe it's not you. Maybe the man's the last customer. And if you to them, what's eating you today? What's wrong? They might complain about the last customer. And then when you say you'd like a car upgrade, they say, how about three? Because they appreciate that you took them at face value and gave them the benefit of the doubt. And that's a really key. And in fact, it's the people that are more than half the reason why people come to agreements. The facts and the evidence are less than 10%.

Very interesting. Is that what you mean by the problem solving model or is that more complex?

A problem solving model is a bit more complex because it looks at what's my goal? Am I meeting my goals? What problem do I have that's preventing me from meeting my goals? And the third thing is, then who are these people? Because each situation is different. So what problem do I have now and what's my goal? And given those two, I actually have to negotiate with a set of people who might even feel differently today than they felt yesterday. And I have to deal with their issues and emotions right now. Which brings me to the point of emotion, which is part of the problem solving model. Emotions destroy negotiations because they distract people from their goals and what you want to do. When people get emotional, they stop listening. And that is whether it's we're a pizza, billion dollar deal and my kid wants an ice cream cone. And so the first thing you've got to do in a negotiation is not talk about your evidence, is even not develop a process. You need to find out what their emotional temperature is. And if they're angry and upset, they care nothing about win win. They want you to make them feel better for something they're angry about. I apologize, I understand. Some kind of empathy. That's what people mostly need. They want to be valued by other people, whether you're Democrats or Republicans in Congress or the clerk in the store. And if you value people, they will pay you for it.

You know, I think back to Ronald Reagan and he seemed to be very good when you mentioned the Democrats and Republicans, he seemed to be very good at crossing the aisle and having on both sides, not just Republicans. Whereas his predecessor Jimmy Carter took a lot of flack for just not having any ability to get people to get behind bills or get any consensus going or any sort of really leadership. I mean, that's what you call it, leadership.

You're so right. People liked Reagan as an individual. He treated people as individuals. He was self deprecating. And as a result of that, he got tremendous support. And I must also say people, George Bush is a very controversial person, but he was pretty likable. And so he got elected twice. I think the first time Kosi was likable and the second time because he said in his nomination acceptance speech, you might not agree with where I stand. At least you know where I stand. People do not necessarily expect you to agree with them. They do expect you to be straight with them. And that's a really big idea. And at the same point, I think Barack Obama beat John McCain in the second presidential debate where every time it looked like McCain was going to slug Obama, Obama just smiled graciously, offered his hand, which McCain didn't take. People expect you to be a decent human being no matter what they say in public to each other. And that's a real key. And in fact, one more thing I want to tell your listeners which is absolutely essential is there was a study done some years ago in France that found so much mistrust that gross national product was 5% lower and unemployment was 8% higher. And our numbers today, our reactions today, this conflictive society we have after 911 is similar to France a few years ago. And if you want to look for why we have unemployment that's at 9%, look no farther than the way we treat each other. And you can measure it, you can count it. And that's why The US Is number five in competitiveness, not number one.

Well, tell me what you mean by that. Can you be more specific? Like on the unemployment. First of all, on the unemployment thing, we talk a lot about that on the show and how the statistics are not quite accurate. But we say unemployment is in the 20s. Actually, when you count the discouraged.

Whatever the number is. But what do you mean? I mean, how is it that unemployment.

I mean, there's less trust, there's more conflict. If you look at everything from Charlie Sheen to the NFL to the NBA to Congress, to the way the media portrays people, both on television, radio and the newspapers, you see that people are conflicted with each other when they try to solve crises. Now, when you conflict with somebody, they don't give you their best stuff. And their best stuff means you take your ideas and my ideas and you take the best of it and you make a new synthesis from better ideas. If you look, for example, at congressional debt crisis, that doesn't happen. People demonize each other and that costs money. And so it's very important. And let me give you a really good, simple example of things that don't happen. A former student wrote me from San Francisco. He said, I was just about to. I was standing on the street corner about across the street and an old man with a cane tried to cross the street. And a guy with a Mercedes convertible and a blonde in the statue seat wheeled and nearly hit this guy. And the old man, as the Mercedes was going by, smacked his door with the rubber tip of the cane. This guy screeches to a halt, gets out, is about to strangle this old man. And this former student gets in the middle of him and says, stop for a minute. Are you hurt? He says to the old man, no. Is your car damaged? He says to the driver, looks at the door, no. What's your goal here? The guy from driver got back in the car, drove away, and the the old man continued to cross the street. We don't do enough of that. There's simpler ways to solve our problems that do not depend upon fighting with each other. And that's what I tried to do in getting more is to provide the anecdotes of 400 people from CEOs to school children, to individuals, housewives, lawyers, et cetera, who did this differently and who got a lot more.

Okay, so let me play devil's advocate with you for a moment on that. So certainly what you say makes complete sense. Fights are. The old saying that I always use is nobody ever wins a fight and then I Remember when, when Dennis Whateley, years ago, I was listening to one of his things and he said, you know, there is no such thing as winning an argument. There is only winning an agreement. And I thought that was very sage. But is there a time when you have to fight? Are there appropriate times in life where you have to fight? Or is it always just be the peacemaker?

I guess the point that I make is the name of my book is Getting War, not Getting Everything. Which is to say there are plenty.

Of good answer, by the way.

There are plenty of times to fight. Everybody knows what they are. Point is it's the last choice, not the first choice. And so there's a lot of things you can do if you take a step back, take a deep breath and say, really, is this the best way to do it? And that's the key. And also, maybe I'm not the right negotiator. Maybe this can be something settled if somebody else negotiates for me, somebody who's not as emotional, for example. And so there's a whole series of questions I have that I want to ask you about. What are their standards? Have they ever made an Exception to a $200 change fee? What have they promised in terms of customer service? Instead of arguing with them, I can say, are you keeping your promise to me, it's a much more powerful question. People hate to contradict themselves. And if you give them that choice, they'll usually comply. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi did that. Very hard bargainers. Mahatma Gandhi took the India, the jewel and the crown from the British Empire without ever raising his voice or a weapon. He just simply said, is the way you're treating our people acceptable? Martin Luther King said, this is the US Constitution, doesn't say that everybody has equal rights. We're confused about this. And even the most hard bargainers could not stand up to those questions. So there's a lot more you can do before you get to the point of violence. And if you don't mind, I'd like to bring up a current newsy political event now just to show you the problem. Everybody's congratulating themselves. At least the governments are for Libya and Gaddafi's demise. I don't get that at all. Six months ago, the guy said he'd negotiate. He was turned down. Instead of that, we caused a war that caused 50,000 people to die in Libya, including innocent women and children, and we spent $10 billion. Now, 30 years ago, was a model when the butcher of Uganda, IDI Amin, did the same. Saudi Arabia offered him a few million dollars and a ville in Saudi Arabia and he left. So I don't know why our leaders don't check the Internet, you know, for models. So it actually wasn't necessary. I'm sure Libby would rather have had the $10 billion to spend on health care, education and housing. And so this is what I mean, picking the hardest way to do it as opposed to the easier and better way to do it. So that's what. And also taking two biggest steps. Universal health care is a really big idea in this country and we are never going to get it anytime soon with all the constituencies fighting over each other. What the goal should be is more people insured next year than this year, more people insured the year after next year than next year. In other words, taking steps that are smaller, that get more people to get behind, to get a sense of accomplishment and then moving on from there. That's the way to solve problems from abortion to healthcare to bullying the schools.

Let me take a brief pause. We'll be back in just a minute.

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Just backing up a moment. Gaddafi in Libya. You have a chapter in your book about cultural differences. And we live in such a globalized society nowadays. Most people live in areas where you've got mixed cultures and mixed ethnicities and so forth. And, you know, they really. There are significant cultural differences. How can we negotiate better with different cultures?

That's another really good point. In getting more. I've got various studies that will surprise people. One says that in companies with work groups where there are significant perceptual differences, three times as many marketable ideas are created than consensus groups. Because difference in remote creativity, even more. For each 10% in diversity added to a US city, net income for everyone there increases by 15%, which is a vast amount of money. No magic that Silicon Valley is located outside of San Francisco. It's the most diverse city in the United States. So if we say. If you say with some frustration, we're different from each other, I say we're going to make money less, disagree more. Because from our different ideas come a better synthesis. And people that fight each other over differences are reducing prices. And so that's a really key idea that people don't understand. You want people to be different and you want to learn stuff from them because their different perceptions add value.

Oh, well, yeah, sure. But what I'm talking about is most people listening have heard about how you should negotiate differently. For example, with Japanese, I mean, they have a very, very different style.

I disagree.

Okay, go ahead.

I disagree totally. First of all, there's 130 million Japanese. You know, they negotiate all kinds of different ways. Some like New Yorkers and some like, you know, the stereotype of Japanese. I need to know the pictures of the person's head at the moment of the negotiation. And you can't, and you can't tell by externalities. And so the first thing I want to be is I want to be me. And I want to tell people that I'm me. Because if I try to be somebody I'm not, I'm not going to be credible. So I want to say, you know, if I insult you in the next couple of days, I apologize in advance. Could you please advise me? That's real. People understand that and they become more collaborative. You act like you want to act, I'll act like I want to act, and we'll talk about our differences. That's much better than trying to do a little dance.

All I'm saying is, you don't know very well. Is that like, that culture specifically is one that really, really values, I mean, all of your material values. This, from what you've told me, it values respect. But especially in that culture, I mean, that is so highly valued.

It's possible for me to respect people and so do myself. I would like to. Not only you, but everybody I talk to. Here's who I am, and so you will always know who I am. And if you don't think you're being respected, let me know. I'll do the best I can. That's much more real than trying to put on an ass.

That's a great statement. No question. You know, there's an old saying, and I'm just wondering what you think of this when you're entering into a negotiation and say it's over price or fee pay, whatever it is, it's over money. And so when you're entering into a negotiation, there are two schools of thoughts on this. The old school would say the first person to mention a number loses. And it seems like the more contemporary school, if I'm reading this correctly, says mention the number first, and then everything builds around negotiating within that context or closer to your number. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Yes. I don't agree with either of them. I agree with mentioning. I believe that both parties should mention the number last after they know what's in the deal. Money is usually not the only thing in the deal. We want to find out what's this thing worth. How have we decided what it's worth? Is there any other terms you're in the deal? When are you moving in or out of the house? Can you give me some time telling me how to get around the neighborhood? What other things should I know?

Would you leave the curtains? There's all kinds of things that I want to discuss before I get to a number. And it is true that if you mention a number first and there's a bargaining range that's wide, you will get hurt. And if you mention a number first and the bargaining range is narrow, you can anchor the other party. But there's so much more in most deals that you shouldn't get hoodwinked by thinking it's just a number that matters. It's not. People buy things from others they trust. People have all kinds of other. For example, if I buy a car from a dealership, I will pay one price. If they just give me a car, I'll pay another price. If they give me a free rental during all the time I bring in for servicing, and they'll give me another price if I refer somebody to them. So there are lots of different terms and agreements that people can put in those agreements if they find out about them, if they talk to the other side. So it's not as simple as anchoring or getting hurt by needing the first agreement. The first number. It depends on what else is in the deal.

Talk to us, if you would, a little bit about travel. Do you mean getting upgrades and things like that?

Yeah. I tend to make connections with people. I tend to. They have a lot of discretion in travel, and I want to see who the person is that I'm dealing with. I want to understand what their day is like. I don't want to demand things. I want to make it easier for them. And so many people who handle travel situations are beat upon. You get a competitive advantage by being nice to them. I've had students that have gotten the first seat on a delayed plane that they were trying to consolidate with the plane that was canceled because they were nice to the person or have gotten upgraded to carpets. I had a couple of students of mine who went to a hotel in Barbados that had a loud band. First one, me, I went down in.

You have a loud ban. I can't sleep. Your hotel shouldn't be doing this. I want a refund. And the desk told me to get lost. Second person, a woman, went down and said, you know, it must be a real drag to listen to this kind of music every night. Would you like me to call the authorities for you, or is there something we can work out? And they gave her a suite on the other side of the hotel. And that's two people, same facts. One got treated much better than the other because they made themselves a person and didn't berate people, didn't complain, et cetera. So attitude means a lot in terms of what you get. And most people forget that when they get upset, and then they just make things worse.

Sure they do. Yeah. Very, very true. You know, a lot of people listening may be involved already in some sort of heavy negotiation that's been progressing or a conflict. And it sounds a lot like you're really not just an expert at negotiation, but at conflict resolution. And I guess there's a slightly flavor there. What can someone do if the tone of an interaction has already been set? Any tips on changing and reframing the negotiation or the debate?

One of the things I say in getting more is you can't change yesterday, but you should say, what's going on? You're very Transparent about this. I would say, you know, we haven't got along so well in this negotiation support. You want to try to do better, both of us. And if they say this is all your fault, I would say I accept any fault that's mine. But the question is, did you want to try to do better or not? I mean, we can fight over yesterday forever. We can try to do better ourselves. Or as I've often said to companies, would you like to give our retained earnings to the sales department or legal department?

That's a great question.

What should we be doing with our future here? The future is what we can control. Want to fight over the past, Go to court, have a. A war. But what do we do now? Is the question. Yesterday is a sunk cost. So that's how I encourage people to think. What do we do right now? People want a concession before they move on. My answer is, if we have a relationship, I'll give you something for yesterday. If we don't, I won't. So first we have to see whether we have a future together, and then I'll talk about yesterday. But to talk about yesterday before we have a deal is a waste of time. So most people put the cart before the horse first. You find out whether you're going to get along, and then you see what you can do with each other.

Very good point. Very good point. So that's kind of like one of the subheads in your book. What can we do now? What can we do for the medium term? What can we do for the long term?

That's right. That's sort of how I want to look at it. What can we do right now to add value, which means we don't want to. And you also need to understand, to do this, other people's perceptions, because what you think you said is not necessarily what they think they heard. A mother's argue with a teenage daughter about her when going out at night. The daughter thinks, I have no freedom. The mother thinks the daughter is going to get killed. No. Or hurt. Unless the two of them discuss their respective perceptions that evening in that relationship is going nowhere. So you really have to question every time you have an argument with somebody, are they hearing what I think I said? And often they're not because they're upset. And people don't hear very well when they get upset for the ordinary family arguments and for arguments in Congress and everything in between.

So how do you make them hear you better?

Then you give them an emotional payment. You said, you say to them, first, I want to hear what you're thinking and feeling, let me know, let me have it. And you ask them questions, et cetera. And then you incrementally say, well, I'd like to talk to you about some of this stuff. A couple things you said may have a misimpression of me. I want to correct the easy stuff first. Here's what I'm really thinking. Then I'd like to talk to you about the things where we're different from one another and how we can form an agreement on that. But that makes the parties much, much more easily be interested in an agreement than the emotional complaining and shouting that usually goes on in conflict.

Very, very good material. Stuart, this is excellent. Can you tell us maybe as a way to sort of encapsulate this before we. And then we'll conclude with some other things. Talk to us, if you would, about some of the different philosophies of negotiating and where you stand on those. I mean, certainly there have been a teachers on the topic, a zillion books written on the topic, and a zillion seminars on the topic.

Great. The first thing is many people think you need to use power and leverage over other people to make them do what you want to do. The alternatives are worse for them, et cetera. They may do it, but it causes resentment and retaliation. Maybe not today, but later, and they will come back at you for it. And that's going to cost you in the future. The next thing is when you force people to do things. They don't give you your best stuff, they don't give you your best ideas, they don't give you your best cooperation whether you were at work or leave at 5, and whether you're a kid, you know, you might be not give your parents all the things they want, or you retaliate in some way. And so it's not very good. That means best alternative to a negotiate agreement, that it really, you know, is an implicit threat. And I don't want to do that. I don't want to say I can go somewhere else. I mean, I'll have that in my mind. But if I say it to you, you're going to get angry. And so you're not going to do what I want you to do. Rather, I want to find out what are your needs, what are your goals, how can I meet them? So that's the first thing people do wrong in negotiations. The next thing they do wrong is they try to make it logical. Win, win. But most people, as I mentioned, are upset. You know, whether it's As I said, world peace, a billion dollar deal, or kids kicking and screaming on the floor. And if people are upset, they don't want to know about Win win. They don't want to see your stretch. They want to know, how do you make me feel better? How do you value what I'm saying? So what I want to do instead of doing rationality, be rational, be calm, is I want to find out what's eating you. Whatever. People often say to me, but they're crazy. And I say to them back, did you want crazy people that are unpersuadable or crazy people who are persuadable? And so if you value them, you get crazy people who are persuadable. That's better for me in the world I live in. And so that's. The second thing is giving people emotional payments and not assuming the world is logical. The third thing is to be incremental, is to try things a little bit at a time. You won't clean your room. Would you clean a quarter of your room? You can't give me $1,000 raise. Can you give me $100 raise? And I try step by step to bring people where they are now, where I want them to go. The next thing is I've got to know what the pictures in their heads are. I have to ask them. I have to guess. Because if I don't know the pictures in their heads, I have nowhere to start and I can't possibly value them. And finally, this is transparent. If somebody says, are you giving me an emotional payment? I'll say, you're darn straight I am. What's wrong? This is a transparent process, not a manipulative process. People respond much better to others.

Who value them and say, what's going on? I've got a little model that sits on the back of a business card on my website and in my book. And it gives you like 20 questions to ask in negotiations. And I tend to share this with the people I'm negotiating with because it gets everybody on the same page in a process way of focusing on their goals or their needs, on getting to know each other.

Fantastic points. Very good. Tell people where they can get the book and any other information.

The book is called Getting More. They can get it at Amazon, they can get it in bookstores, they can get it at CEO Reid or Barnes and Noble. In addition to that, our website is www.gettingmoreoneword.com and they can also look on that. And that'll also give you the link to a place where you can buy the book. The book is sold very well here and abroad. It's a new idea, but it's number one in Taiwan. It's the number one business book in Britain and as it's been a bestseller here. But so what I'm really trying to do is get people to think about a different way of dealing with things so more situations wind up like the guy with the cane and the Mercedes. Seems good.

Yeah. That could have escalated into something really ugly. And it was solved very well. Four and a half stars on Amazon. So keep up the good work, Stuart, and thank you for joining us today. These are some fantastic tips and I'm sure they're helpful to everyone.

Thank you very much.

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