1598: Rising Homeownership Rates? Record Low Interest, The Covid Effect, Jenna Weinerman

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 15, 9, 8, 1598 and thanks for joining us today as we have got part two of the suburban super tsunami from yesterday. Insightful stuff from our guest in just a few moments. But if you need assistance on self directed IRAs, financing questions, referrals for any of these things, 1031 exchange, self management, talking about the bubbles, the cycles, referrals to local market specialists reach out to our team through jasonhartman.com, or 1-800-hartman and also I know that many of you attended our first Charlotte webinar, but we do have another one coming up and that's@jasonhartman.com Charlotte Charlotte market profile and a little bit of teaching on conceptual real estate investing topics before that. And then our Sweet Home Alabama webinar is available as well on replay at jasonhartman.com/. Sweet home. I like that title. Can you tell? I'm kind of proud of that title.

Anyway. That's such a great song, isn't it? Sweet Home Alabama. And wow, new construction in these markets, folks. It's so hard to come by. Good new construction that actually pencils out. And amazingly it does. And so did you know, ladies and gentlemen, that we broke another record? What is the record, you ask? Well, let's give it a drum roll.

The record is interest rates. Yes. Well, you know that we've had these incredibly low interest rates. Thank you to your rich uncle, Jerome Powell. I almost said Ben Bernanke.

No, it's your rich uncle Jerome Powell and chair of the Federal Reserve. And of course, the Federal Reserve is nothing more than a big scam. Scam. But whatever, we won't go there right now. But yeah, we broke a record. And the interest rates have reached another all time low. Lower than low. We broke that record a few times this year, but it keeps getting broken Again, we break our own records, right? It's truly amazing. So people are getting incredible rates on their investment properties. And by the way, you might want to reach out to our team and get some referrals on refinancing. You know, it constantly changes this stuff. Sometimes one lender is better than the other, and then another lender is better than that old lender that you went to last time around. So reach out to our team and we can provide the latest and greatest referrals for refinancing or of course, purchase loans. Also, another record. Let's have another drum roll, please.

You know, when I do that, the dog really freaks out. She doesn't know what's going on. Do you, puppy? Nope. She doesn't know. Anyway, the other record. Listen to this one. Now, this is not in keeping with my personal philosophy of how things should be, but no one cares what I think about how things should be. The world just does things without me. And this record is Texas homeownership rate. Now, this is not nationwide, but it is a bit of a proxy for nationwide, because although I don't have anything in front of me on this, but anecdotally I would say that the homeownership rate is increasing, okay? Which I don't necessarily think that is the best thing for society, contrary to popular belief.

I don't agree with that. I used to think that. But you know what really changed my mind about that is reading that big front page article in, was it Time magazine? I almost want to say, was it Newsweek? But you know, Newsweek isn't printing anymore. But back then maybe they did. And it was about 10 years ago, I was in some airport somewhere and I picked up the copy of that, and on the COVID it said something like, is homeownership good for us or something? Or good for society? Or something like that. And the opinion was that it was always good. You know, the idea of people making an investment in the community, establishing roots and all of that, on the surface, that seems like a good idea, right? I mean, people that have a stake in something tend to treat it better, right? They feel like they're part of a neighborhood, part of a community, part of society. Right. But the problem is, among other things, this is just one of many problems with homeownership. High homeownership rates is. It makes the economy more stagnant. It makes people more stagnant. And they found in these studies that unemployment rates were actually higher in these rates with high home ownership during this was during the Great Recession. Of course, I'M talking about. But like I've said, the best thing you can have on a resume is mobility, to be able to move to where the jobs are. Right. And that's why I don't necessarily think this is the greatest thing, but I'll share it anyway because it's news. So Texas homeownership rate reaches an all time high. Record low inventory is pushing up home prices in the Lone Star State. Now, those statements, you could substitute almost any state, not every state, but almost any state. Certainly the states we do business in. And the title would read the same because this just happens to be about Texas, but it's certainly true in Florida and Georgia just the same. Okay. It just talks about how the homeowner ownership rate is now at an all time high of. Are you ready for this? Now, just to give you a little context, okay. So during the George Bush era, Bush number two, the thinking was that it was incredible that we saw the homeownership rate in the country nationwide get up into the high 60s percentile. Now, what was it? I don't have any of this stuff in front of me, but I think it might have been 69% or 68%. Okay. Then we saw that homeownership rate decline as the foreclosures happened and the short sales happened. And people just couldn't afford to buy houses because their credit was beat up. After even a strategic default, they hurt their credit report. They cycled out of the owner market into the renter market. And we saw rental prices increase and landlords were saying, yay. They were saying.

Yeah, that's what they were saying. Hip, hip, hooray. And so as they were, you know, I entertain myself, don't I? As they were doing that, they saw upward pressure on rents and that was a great thing. But then as we went into cycles where prices were going up dramatically, everybody got worried and they thought, we better buy a house, let's get a house. Right? And then interest rates were at periods when interest rates were low and now they're insanely low. They're negative, quite literally. So with negative interest rates or very low rates, at least everybody rushes into the housing market. And that will generally cause rents to soften, right? And there will be downward pressure on rents. But right now we are hearing all kinds of stories from our clients that, that when the tenant moves, they're actually happy to get those people out because the next tenant, they can get 100 bucks a month more, whereas they couldn't get away with that increase with the same tenant. Sometimes one of our investors actually told me he was getting $200 a month more with his new tenant than he was before. So he was super happy they left. So that can be a good thing. It's like getting fired from the job and then getting a new job that's 10 times better. Or may maybe you get a divorce and you're all depressed about it and then you find a new significant other and you're like, why did I ever put up with that last one? Right? That happens, folks. You know, it happens. It might have happened to you. So that happens. Anyway, it's truly an incredible real estate market we're in right now. It is absolutely amazing. That's why you want to take advantage of those two webinars. We have new construction homes, beautiful brand new construction with beautiful countertops, beautiful finishes. I mean, these properties are pretty awesome, for sure. I would be super happy to live in any of those properties and have a rental that was that nice as a tenant, if I were a tenant.

Right.

Those, those were great properties. Check those webinars out. I gave you the links earlier. They'll be in the show notes below. But now, now let's get to our guest and let's continue that discussion of the suburban tsunami.

So Jason, we talked earlier about, in preparation for this, about what cities are making headlines and why. We talked about national trends. Now let's dive into which of these cities are notable. I know we want to talk about New York, so I sort of set that up for us. First today, let's talk about New York city. So the COVID 19 effect on new York City. So what we saw was, and this goes back to the conversation we just had about inbound, outbound growing. We saw inbound moves to New York drop year over year and we saw outbound moves grow by 20%. So when both of those things happen simultaneously, you have an exodus. And that's what we're seeing in New York City. Now, New York has been a net loss city, not by much, but a net loss city for the last four years according to our data. But the loss actually tripled during the pandemic. And that's where we see the exodus. Fun fact of the New Yorkers who moved to a different state. The top destinations were Florida and Connecticut. And there was a higher than average increase, particularly in New York, of moves over 100 miles, 41% year over year. What you're about to see on the next few slides as we talk about this is that New Yorkers actually did go very far. San Francisco residents like to stay in California. New Yorkers like to dispersed all over the country during this time period. And that's really interesting. Okay, so where did they go? Long distance speaking? What we're looking at on the screen here is a map of the states that New Yorkers move to. Not surprisingly, we have New Jersey topping the list. That was my exact path. I'm in New Jersey right now. California, we're looking at number two, and then three, four, and five for Florida, Connecticut and Texas. I want to point out Florida and what the. Jason, the numbers that you see here in terms of year over year growth. This is from New York State to Florida state. There's a 91% year over year growth during this time period. Connecticut, 141% growth. We're going to dig into. Yeah, we're going to dig into that one in just a minute. And Pennsylvania, you're about to see on a metro side, Pennsylvania and Philly, the New York to Philly corridor. That is hot right now.

Yeah.

So we're just looking at a state map right now. Let's turn that into cities.

I must say what I am surprised is California being number two. That does surprise me because, you know, you would think that, I mean, the trend that was already happening, as you alluded to, Jenna, is that people were leaving New York already. They've certainly been leaving California as well. You know, the high tax rates are pushing people out, the business unfriendliness. And so Covid has accelerated that a lot, especially if it's a high density area. But yeah, let's look city by city.

Right, we'll look city by city. It's hard to tell at a state level considering how big California is, to sort of dissect that a bit. Okay, so what we're seeing here in terms of metro areas, so if you were living in the New York metro area and you moved long distance out of New York, where did you go? And this map is showing cities all over the country. So we have Washington, New Yorkers going to Washington D.C. no surprise. To your point, Jason, about California being on the list, you have LA and Orange county being number two.

Surprises that surprises me. Numbered. That's. So people leaving New York City are moving to LA or Orange County. That's the number two move for them. And the number one move is Washington.

D.C. it could be people going home. Right. There's this concept of going home. You talk about halfback before. But there could be Californians living in New York and they said, whoa, this is a little scary right now. I'm going to go home where it's not so bad. Louisiana was not quite as bad from a Covid perspective at the beginning.

Early stages, lower density.

Yeah, right. And you can spread out a little bit there. So our top MSAs here for New Yorkers to move to were Washington, Louisiana, Philadelphia, 88%. So the New York City to Philadelphia moves increased 88% year over year. Great news for Philadelphia. A lot of people moving in, housing prices going up, et cetera. Chicago and Atlanta with a 63% year over year growth. We also see cities on the list that are a little further. We're looking at San Francisco like LA, Miami, Dallas, Charlotte, rounding out the top 10. So in terms of New Yorkers moving, as I mentioned earlier, they dispersed. You can see it here on the map. They really, they went far. And that just speaks to the fact that New York City really is a melting pot. And if there were people perhaps going home or looking for a better quality of life during this time or wanting to move to cities that are perhaps warmer, you see a bunch of warm destinations on this list. That's just speaking to the diversity of New York City to begin with, in my opinion.

Very interesting.

Yeah, very interesting. Okay. And let's specifically focus on Manhattan. I'm a Manhattanite, I had to throw this in here. So of people who did not move within Manhattan and they left but stayed local, where did they go? Number one, Brooklyn. Not shocking. Number two, Jersey City. Number three, Long Island City. Number four, Stanford. And number five, Hoboken, New Jersey. I just want to call out one here for Stanford. The Manhattan address to Stamford address increased 150% year over year in terms of growth. So Stanford is experiencing a major influx of Manhattanites, not Brooklyn Heights, Jersey City Manhattanites. And we've talked to some people in Stanford and I have some friends there and I said watch out, New Yorkers are coming in and they're prepared for that. And the one thing that's really worth noting is we did a sort of a deeper dive into Connecticut and found that obviously Stamford is an interesting home for or it's an interesting place to live for New Yorkers because it's a very easy commute back and forth to New York. It's a one shot train. However, some of the cities in Connecticut that require two trains or a transfer, those experienced influxes as well. And that made me think, like we said, we have to think about the data. I was thinking about this and our team was. And what we realized was people who think that their work from home will be Able to continue, moved further to the two trains. People who felt like they might need to go back to work stayed in Stanford. So Stanford's a great location in case you have to go back.

Yeah. Right, right. Okay.

Okay. Let's talk about San Francisco. Interesting one here. We saw this one. We saw the city on the number two, lossless based on population size. That's a huge statement for San Francisco. And San Francisco, just like New York, has also been a net loss city for the past four years, minimally. But again, losses tripled during the pandemic. And we added a line chart here for anyone who can't see this. What this chart is showing is since 2017, what has been the delta between moves in and out of San Francisco. And you're seeing a reverse hockey stick here of San Francisco holding strong as a very minimal net gain loss city, meaning the same amount of people were moving in as leaving slightly below zero, falling on the loss side. And then as the pandemic has struck, you see a very large drop off from 2019 to 2020 in terms of the actual loss that the city is experiencing right now. Really, really interesting to see San Francisco just losing some folks. And if we look at where they are going, we pulled the same maps here that we just talked about for New York state by state. So people from San Francisco, what states did they go to?

They're going to Texas. Why not surprised?

Yeah, they're going to Texas.

Texas has been the pick for Californians for so many years, and I bet a lot of them are moving specifically to Austin from San Francisco. That's a.

Should we check it out? Next slide.

Okay, next slide we're looking at now, these are the top 10 MSAs that San Franciscans moved to. What's interesting, I want to come back to Texas, what you just said. But look at where these cities are compared to New York. Every city on here, almost. Well, most of them are West Coast. So for the listeners online, we have where San Francisco's moving. Los Angeles, Sacramento, Seattle, San Diego, New York, Stockton, California, Portland, Vegas. And then you have D.C. and Austin. And what's really interesting about this is San Francisco residents stayed. West Coast New Yorkers spread across the country.

Right. Well, I think the New Yorkers figured if we're going to move in the bargain, we might as well try and get better weather.

I agree.

Yeah. So. And everybody likes lower cost of living, so. Yeah. Okay.

Especially coming from either one of these two cities.

Absolutely. They're outrageously overpriced. Yeah.

And to your point about Austin being One of the top destinations. You're absolutely right. There it is. As the number 10.

I had dinner with Tim Ferriss right after he moved to Austin and you know, he famously left Silicon Valley to live in Austin. And it's a very similar vibe. It's just a much less expensive version of Silicon Valley.

Right. I have to admit, super jealous you had dinner with Tim Ferriss. I'm a fan. I have a signed book of his.

I must tell you something interesting. Our dinner was a. I kid you not, it was a four hour dinner. You know, he wrote the book, the Four Hour Workweek. The Four Hour Chef.

That's so funny.

And then we had a one hour dessert after that. So in another place. So it was a long dinner.

I'm really jealous. He would be on my top list of people I'd want to have a four hour dinner with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe one day. Tim, if you're listening.

There you go.

Okay, so we talked about where San Franciscans are going. And then let's talk locally, just like we did for New Yorkers. Check this out. All destinations in the top 10 that San Franciscans move to locally are within, obviously within California. The top 20 cities that San Franciscans move to were also within California. We're looking at, obviously, no shock here. Within local. We're talking about San Francisco, downtown addresses, moving to San Jose, Sunnyvale, Oakland, Mountain View, Fremont, Santa Clara, Dublin, Pleasanton.

They're just moving to the suburbs. They're getting.

Exactly.

They're not moving to inexpensive areas, but they're still less expensive than the city proper and they're right there. So they still have all their same contacts, their same social circle.

Yep, exactly. You might just change your nail salon and your pizza place. Okay, so what I also wanted to do, we talked about New York, we talked about San Francisco. I just wanted to sort of pinpoint some other notable cities that you might find interesting. So we're just going to jump around the country a little bit here if that's okay.

Sure.

So let's talk about Boston for one second. So Boston has been a net loss city again for four years. However, the losses doubled during COVID Not as severe as New York and San Francisco, but we did see an exodus. And you can see a line chart here of the net gains and loss and Boston moving toward a more severe net loss in the recent months of the pandemic. Boston was also the third greatest loss relative to the population. Remember, Odessa was number one, San Francisco number two. Boston number three. Fun facts, where are Boston residents going if they are leaving. They're going to New York, number one, Washington, number two, and Providence, Rhode island, number three. Providence, interestingly, experienced an 84% growth year over year from folks from Boston. So just wanted to.

I'm not surprised they would go to New York. I mean, if you're talking about New York City, that. That does really shock me.

You know, I thought the same thing, and then I started digging into this concept of home. Right. New York is just a melting pot and there could be people from Boston living. There are not. Could be. There are many people from Boston living in New York and vice versa. They're so close together. Boston is a little bit more quaint, in my opinion. So if you're looking for that big city lifestyle, might be moving to New York. Okay, that's Boston. We have our same type of concept here. We're going to look at Vegas. You called out Vegas as a really interesting one earlier in the show. Vegas was our third largest net gain on the national list relative to population. What's interesting is net gains in Vegas have been steadily increasing year over year over year. And the widest gains, basically the gap of gain, increased during the pandemic significantly. And you can see that right here in this chart. We're looking at a line chart of the last few months of 2019 and into the pandemic months of 2020. And we see a huge spike in Vegas in terms of gain around April into May and June, which is when mobility started to pick up. People were moving to Vegas. And overall we saw a 51% growth year over year in Las Vegas in terms of inbound moves. And if you're curious where they're coming from, which I was. They're coming from, as you called it, really west coast areas. You've got Los Angeles, number one, San Francisco, San Diego, Seattle, and then Chicago is your little outlier. But some west coast big city folks moving into Las Vegas.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, no state income taxes compared to. If you're doing well, you're going to pay 13.3% in California, maybe 16.8% soon. So it's.

Yeah, yeah. Think carefully about where you're moving, folks. Okay, so that's Las Vegas. Just really interesting data here. I want to call out Denver and my next slide is going to be about. We're going to talk a minute about Denver and a minute about Austin. Denver and Austin have been on the map, metaphorically speaking, for a while as very hot cities to be about 10 years ago. They were, I would call them maybe tier two Cities that were growing, these are now tier one cities that have experienced huge relocation booms over the last 10 years. Denver's been a really hot mover destination for four years in a row. And it actually this year ranked number 11 on the national destination list, up two spots from number 13 last year. So Denver and Austin growing neck and neck, hand in hand, really well. And they're both benefiting in terms of resident growth during the pandemic. And interestingly, only two of the top 20 are origination cities into Denver. Meaning of all the cities that sent residents into Denver, only two of the top 20 were within Colorado. That means 18 of the top 20 were from outside of Colorado. People are moving to Colorado for a better quality of life. They're moving in from all over the country. And here's a full list. I thought you'd find this interesting. Net gain to relative to population. Again in Denver, we have where are people moving from? Number one, like I said, Fort Collins, Colorado. Number two, New York City. So when you look at the data about people leaving New York and people where they're going, you also then need to move over to the destination cities and look at the inbound. And that's what we're doing now. It's like, okay, if all these people are moving to Denver, where are they coming from? They're coming from Fort Collins, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Colorado Springs, San Francisco, Dallas, D.C. but they're coming from all over and they're being attracted to Denver for a lot of reasons. It's just a really hot market and it has been for quite a while.

Yeah, yeah, Denver's a great city. I love Denver.

Yeah, yeah, me too. Now you're going to see something very similar in Austin. I'm flipping a slide here. For those listening, we're now looking at Austin, Texas, again, hot mover destination. For four years in a row. Austin ranks number 14 on the national destination list. And seven out of the top 20 origination cities were from within Texas. The other 13 came from all over the country. Very, very similar patterns to Denver. And if we look at where they're coming from, number one, Houston into Austin, number two, Dallas into Austin, number three, San Antonio into Austin. So a lot of folks within Texas are moving to Austin, which is really great, keeping it local there. And then outside of Texas, you have San Francisco, New York City and Los Angeles. So there are a lot of folks moving into Austin from all over the country, same as Denver. And I just wanted to call those out as just being two cities to keep your eye On I mean as if they wasn't already. But in terms of investment, I think your viewers will appreciate that the problem.

With some of these cities, they may be great markets but they're too expensive to provide good cash flow. So for example, you know, eight, 10 years ago, that was about the last time we did any business in Denver. The last time we did any business in Austin was maybe 14 years ago. They both got too expensive and so the rents never keep up with the prices and so those rental ratios just stop working after a while. But they're both great cities, you know, and I mean compared to LA and San Francisco and New York, they're a bargain.

Right, Interesting. I'm going to skip ahead, I'm going to come back to the next. I want to skip ahead based on you're talking about cash flow here. We did put together a city, a list of cities to watch in terms of long term growth as well as for immediate impact to local businesses. And on the cities to watch list we chose a combination of cities based on year over year growth and inbound moves, pandemic specific growth relative to population size, multi year relocation trends, housing and rent affordability and also the job market in each city. So for long term growth we have three cities to watch. We, we chose Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. So curious your take on those.

And then for the only, the only ones that will work in there are maybe Raleigh, we haven't done any business there in a while. On the second list, Charlotte's the only one that'll work. But years ago we did do a lot of business in Salt Lake City. It just also got too expensive though.

Yeah, right. The low, the second chart here that you see for those listening, this is a, we called it a four local business. This is a city list to watch for local business meaning there is extreme growth in these cities during the pandemic which can impact local businesses, impact school districts, impact health systems, et cetera. So this is more just like not necessarily for investment growth but more so for hey, local economy, watch out Stanford, Charlotte and Salt Lake City. Yeah, cool. I'm going to back up one slide. I just want to hit that while we were talking about it and just back up here. So question is what should our country expect moving forward? What do we want to pay attention to? And I pulled some data here from a few different sources, including our own mover data that we've gone through. Essentially I'm predicting that we're going to see a little bit more of the same for this year. However, I think more People are more willing to move right now than they were earlier in the pandemic. Why earlier in the pandemic? A, we didn't have a grip on how long this was going to last, and B, we didn't know who it was going to affect, where it was going to affect. People were fearing job loss. And if you're not fearing job loss as much right now or your business has rebounded, you might be more willing to make a risky move. Not risky, but make a move. So I do think that if people were going to move, the relocation boom is, in my opinion, just getting started. Right. We're going to start to see shifts. So a few bullets here that we're sharing.

I completely agree with you, by the way.

Ok, good, Great. And here are just a few reasons why we feel this way. Remote work continues to be an opportunity for Americans to relocate wherever they want. It's not just work from home, it's work from anywhere. And 54.7% of newly remote workers want to relocate over two hours away or more from their current location. That's from an upwork study of remote workers who was just recently released, I think a week or two ago. But. But that's over half of people who are newly remote want to move over two hours away. That's a great sign for moving. It's a great sign for new economies. It's a great sign for all these cities that we just talked about. Second bullet here is Americans who needed a new home for a new lifestyle. They have moved. If they needed to make an immediate move, they did. And there's been a lack of home inventory at the moment, which is leading us to believe that the summer sales season slowing. Bidding wars for limited inventory may continue, though, because the inventory is slowing down.

What people need to realize about that is that, and this is not apparent to a lot of people who just look at the data is home sales can only be accomplished based on the amount of inventory available. So there may be a massive amount of buyer demand. But if there's no inventory to buy, then the sales stats lag and they don't look good. But that's not a reflection of the market. That may be a reflection of an extremely hot market market. So.

Right. Or you could have the exact reverse of that in New York City right now where 10,000 apartments are on the market and there's no buyer demand.

Don't you want to sell your place?

It's funny you say that. I'm actually from Philadelphia and I had been planning to move back to Philadelphia. Anyway, the pandemic has sparked that interest and my, my apartment is up for sale. Nothing has happened to it. So that's why I was saying earlier that like I am excited to go back. It's been sitting on the market over 100 days.

Yeah. Gosh.

Yeah. And what's funny is in New York, that's not normal. My apartment, I have a studio apartment with a washer, dryer and three walk in closets. That's unheard of. And it's been sitting on the market for 100.

How much is that? About a million. Two.

My studio.

Yeah.

Actually I put it up for, I put it up for 459.

Oh wow. That's incredibly inexpensive.

Yeah. Yes, yes. And studios are ranging from I would say 375 to 500 right now. So it's right smack in the middle of the pack. But it's amazing. Yet it's still sitting and it's just a bad market. Yeah.

Thank you. And it's one of those things. This is just a funny time. And like I said, all these trends, we're seeing them now, are they going to continue? Are they not? How is this going to shift? How is it shifting cities and economies in the long term? Only time will tell. We really need to be patient with this. So another stat here, we're talking about rent. So like what can we expect moving forward? Rents across major cities are continuing to decrease with record breaking declines. So if you did want to rent my apartment instead, you know that's available as well. But the five largest decreases year over year in rent, San Francisco rents are down 20%, Oakland 19%, New York 15%, Seattle 14.9 and Washington D.C. 14.8. So if you are looking to rent an apartment right now or you want to get rid of your home and rent something downtown and do the reverse, now would be the time to invest in a rental and lock in a long term lease as many of those property management companies let you do.

We also have mortgages are continuing to be affordable. Right. We know that the rates are really low. The prices will continue to drive down payments. It's funny, I had a conversation with my parents the other day. Never knew this story. They left their honeymoon early many years ago in the 80s. Left their honeymoon early to lock in a 14% interest rate. And they wanted to get home to make sure that they locked that in because they didn't want to, they didn't want to miss out.

You don't want to have to pay 16%, you know.

Right, right, exactly. And and look at where we are today. So if there was ever a time for you to purchase, like, or rent, give it, give it a shot. It's worth it now. So. And then additionally, 36% of Americans say they're concerned about losing their jobs right now. And that study came out just a month ago. So 36%, I think that was down from in the 50s earlier in the pandemic. So there's a little bit more stability. But still for 36% of people to be concerned, more risk averse folks, maybe it's not the right time for you. So again, there's pros and cons, there's pluses and minuses, there's different trends that are pulling in different directions. So I do think that the current mobility spikes are a precursor to a longer, more sustained relocation boom. But only time's going to tell.

Yeah, very interesting, Jenna. Anything else you want to share with us before you go, just to wrap things up?

No, I mean that was it. Unless you have other questions. We could talk all day about this.

You know we could. I love this stuff. You seem to love it too. It's really fascinating, for sure. But again, I think what you just mentioned, time will tell. But I do think that the long term trend is out of the big cities. And you mentioned Park City before. And I'll just share an interesting anecdote that my listeners may have heard. There's a well known author, John Nesbitt, he wrote a series of books entitled Megatrends and Megatrends, Something something, something. And he talked how he, I think in the 90s had moved to Telluride, Colorado, sort of comparable to Park City, Utah. Right. It's a ski town, very nice place. And he was just amazed that he could live in such a nice, what he called quality of life location. And he didn't have to have his whole operation, his whole office, his research firm in LA or New York or San Francisco. He could live in Telluride. And Jenna, the big technology of the day that allowed him to live in Telluride, Wait for it. You ready? Federal Express.

Sending documents back and forth.

That was the big technology of the era that allowed him to live.

Amazing.

I don't know if he moved in the late 80s or early 90s, but it just goes to show you that people are really adopting and taking advantage of these technologies that allow them to live wherever they want. Back in 2012 on the show I said that I've been re quoted a lot on this. I made the statement, geography is less meaningful than it's ever been in human history. And when I said that eight years ago, I was referring to autonomous vehicles and how the self driving car would revolutionize our life. That's been a little bit slow in coming, but it is coming. And.

When I say geography is less meaningful than it's ever been, what I mean is what's considered, or what was considered at least prime geography, Expensive cities, San Francisco, New York, Louisiana. You know, people just don't have to live in these places anymore. And frankly, I don't think they're that nice. I think they're great places to visit. I love going to New York City as a tourist, but I wouldn't want to live there.

It's just, you know, it requires a special personality. You know, I've done it for 12 years and now here I am living at the beach. I can see the ocean and, and I run on the beach every day. And that is just a different lifestyle. Running in Central park is different than running on the beach and.

Try everything, you know what I mean? You've shared in this segment just now, you've moved all over the country. And at the end of the day, if geography is truly less important, it opens you up to so many more possibilities. And that's what I think. If there is any kind of silver lining at all related to the pandemic, it has opened people's minds up to where do I want to be, what do I want to do? Do I want to continue working for this company? Do I want to be closer to my family in case something happens? And you know, it just, it opens your mind to, it's allowed us all to pause a little bit. And as it relates to moving and you know, a lot of people are rethinking this.

Americans, and I assume people all over the world are the same, are really rethinking, you know, what makes up a good location, a good place to live? And they're making new decisions, they're voting with their feet. And we'll see how it all turns out. Jenna, we'd love to have you back in the future to give us an update on this stuff. Do you want to give out a website or anything? I know updater is like an invitation only type thing, but sure, yeah, everyone.

If you're, if you're moving and you need moving tips or you want to access, we do have some free tools available. You can book your Internet with us online and a few other features, which is fantastic. But if you're interested, updater.com and if you are a real estate agent, a property management company Listening we'd love to work with you in part partner, to help ease the friction around moving for your clients and residents. So give us a call from a B2B perspective.

Excellent. Good stuff, Jenna. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me. This is a blast. Thanks.

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