1683 FBF: The Race for the World's Most Seductive Metal & The $20 Trillion Marketplace for Gold with Matthew Hart

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Hey, welcome to the show. This is your host, Jason Hartman. This is episode number 419. Our guest today, they will be Matthew Hart. As we talk about gold, the race for the world's most seductive metal, I like to talk about this kind of stuff because it's such a good barometer for so many things. When we deal with dollars, when we deal with euros, when we deal with yen, when we deal with any currency, any fiat currency, that is a fluctuating thing and it is not a very consistent measuring stick. But, but we actually love this. It's great because we exploit this to our advantage as real estate investors. So that is a wonderful, wonderful thing. And I'm coming to you today from Little Rock, Arkansas. It is Sunday evening and we just finished our weekend property tour, had a great time. This was kind of a smaller tour for us. You know, it's a small market, a small city, so it didn't attract the normal 40, 50 people that come to a property tour. We had, I think, 22 people at this one. It was just an awesome time. So Saturday we did the Creating wealth seminar. We spent several hours going over all these different scenarios that might impact our financial future, whether they be inflation, deflation or stagnation, and how we can play the game correctly to win regardless of the economic scenario that we face. So that was very interesting and very enlightening and we had a great time doing that. And then today, Sunday, we went out and we looked at a whole bunch of properties and we shared a bunch of meals together. Yesterday we had breakfast, lunch, dinner. We had a great dinner last night and then a great lunch today at a Japanese Restaurant. I thought it was kind of funny. Here we are in Little Rock and we're going out for Japanese food. Not exactly what Little Rock, Arkansas is known for. What it is known for is being the most landlord friendly real estate market in the country. It's the most real estate investor friendly market. Yesterday we had the property manager come in and speak to us for, I don't know, maybe about 20, 25 minutes or so. She talked all about how it is very, very landlord friendly and talked a little bit about the audio that I played on a podcast several episodes ago about how Arkansas is the only state in where a tenant can face actual criminal charges for non payment of rent while they're holding over the property. And I think that's pretty harsh. I wouldn't recommend that any landlord pursue that type of thing. However, it does work as a lever to get people to behave and fulfill their agreements. And if someone isn't paying the rent, they got to get out. Society is based on people and keeping their word and living up to their agreements. If we don't have that, we have chaos, we have anarchy. So that was very interesting and we got the real scoop, the real details on how that happens. And it was just amazing how low the vacancy rates are and the corollary how high the occupancy rates are here and how easy it is to get properties rented and how easy it is to have cooperative tenants because they pay the rent here. What a concept. And if they can't pay, pay, they move. That's very refreshing when a lot of our clients come from much more socialist markets where the landlord doesn't get any respect. You know, the landlord has looked at the big evil investor. They must be super mega rich, they must be a billionaire because they own a property and God forbid they expect their tenant to actually pay them as they agreed to in the lease. What a concept, right? Those markets where it's very, very tough to do business for landlords are places like Californ, New York, the city metro area of Chicago. Those are places among others. There are others in the northeast and so forth where landlords just don't have any rights. And one of the things we look for besides a good diversified employment base, a good appreciation potential, a nice community. All of the factors that I present in the Creating wealth seminar as what I call the lucky 1313 is generally thought of to be an unlucky number. I've identified 13 characteristics. You can get this in my Creating wealth home study course. If you haven't been and come out to see us live. At one point you can get those lucky 13 there and really learn about those factors that make a market desirable for investment, for landlords, for real estate investors. And Little Rock, it just such a pleasant, clean, wonderful town. Last time I was here, I felt the same way. I did this time Friday night. I went out to just a wonderful dinner at this gorgeous new restaurant called Cash. It's brand new, it's absolutely stunning. I went out with one of our clients on Friday evening and after just a fantastic dinner, we walked around and we went to the waterfront area. And it's just beautiful here. It's so clean. I cannot get over how clean it is. And the comparisons that come to mind are one place I used to live and that's Irvine, California, a super, super clean city. Another one is one I've been to twice and I just visited a couple of months ago, and that is Singapore. Singapore, if you, if you spit on the sidewalk, you're going to get a $500 fine. I don't know, maybe you'll go to jail or get a lashing. Remember that story about, what was it, what was his name? Michael Fay. I think years ago that during the Clinton administration, he was some crazy kid who vandalized some cars there and they lashed him. Listen, I think that's barbaric, obviously, but it shows you the reason Singapore is so clean and everything is so orderly. It's because they take this stuff seriously. And I would, of those three cities, Irvine, Singapore, two of the cleanest cities in the world. I would put Little Rock right up there too. Just a go. Gorgeous, gorgeous smaller city. Really had just a wonderful time here this weekend, hanging out with our clients, learning, looking at properties, discussing issues. Be sure if you haven't done this, come to one of our events, meet our clients. We have lots of repeat clients that come to these events and you can talk to them. You can hear the good, the bad and the ugly. We're very transparent about all this stuff and it really gives you a chance to meet our clients. So here's what I'll say about that. We're going to see if we can get one more Creating wealth seminar and property tour in before the end of the year. I'm not sure where it'll be yet, but we'll announce that as soon as we get it figured out and get it planned. And then, of course, in January, as usual, we'll have our Meet the Masters event, our annual event where providers and experts on a variety of topics fly in from all over the country. And that's a two day event, all lots of speakers. And that's the one where I'm not speaking the whole time. The experts are. I'm sort of the MC and I'm introducing people and I'm doing two or maybe three sessions, three of the speeches, two or three of the speeches during the Meet the Masters event. But mostly it's other people. It's our experts and our providers. You'll get to meet the masters at that event and we'll announce that soon. And that should be slated for January as usual. So please come and join us for one of those. Now before we get to our guest today, this just broke. This is a big, big story. Okay. If you listen to npr, as a couple of our clients do, I'm not a huge NPR fan. I do listen to it sometime. You know, I find it a little bit slow and wonky for my taste and not kind of fast and hard hitting enough. But they do have some good stories from time to time, some good in depth stories. And on their program, this American Life, they talk about the secret recordings of Carmen Segueira. And I will see if we can get Carmen on the show in the future. But this is really mind blowing when you look at the relationship of these basically, and I'm gonna say it, Wall street, the modern version of organized crime. And you know, it's really hard to debate me on that because we all know it's true. Even all of the guests I've had on prior episodes who are Wall street people, they know it's true. It's just disgusting what goes on at the highest levels of our government, our central banking system at Wall Street. And Carmen went and she felt a bunch of things were wrong. And what she did is she went and she recorded secretly a bunch of these meetings where she thought things were inappropriate and things were wrong. And it just, although I haven't had time to fully digest this yet, I'm just diving into it this afternoon. But she really, really discovered a lot of things about this cozy relationship of how the Fed and the banks are basically conspiring together. There's just no real oversight. And I got to tell you, this is true in a lot of industries. In the Bar association, the Bar association bills itself, I guess, as an agency that is there to protect consumers, to give consumers a recourse against bad apple attorneys that do bad things. And what you find in reality a lot of times is it's nothing more than a club to protect these lawyers. Okay? You find arbitration who I that I think is a complete scam. And we're going to talk about that more on upcoming episodes. And you're going to learn about why you want to avoid potentially these arbitration clauses in contracts and how you lose a lot of your rights. So look for more coming up on that. But there are so many of these things in our society where you don't even realize your rights and your recourse and your prosperity and, you know, all kinds of things are just being taken away from you left and right. So we're here on the show as good investigative journalists to expose these shams so that you understand them and you can act accordingly to protect yourself. Let the buyer beware. And the buyer is really anyone. It's all of us in society who are engaging in transactions with companies, with businesses, with other people. And we don't realize that how our rights are being diminished and our recourse is being diminished. So this Carmen Seguera thing is really, really mind blowing. It's a big, big story. Okay, so more on that on future episodes. Let's get to our guest today. Without further ado, I'm going along here. Let's talk about the economy and the metals and why they are important and why it's important for us to understand this stuff as investors and, and really just dive into it. Okay, so we will do that. Let's get to our guest today. We got a lot of great stuff coming up on future episodes, too. So keep listening. And here is our guest. It's my pleasure to welcome Matthew Hart to the show. He is the author of the Race for the World's Most Seductive Metal as well as some other books on diamonds and gold. Matthew, welcome. How are you?

Oh, I'm very well. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Good. My pleasure. And you're located in New York today, right?

Yes, I am.

Fantastic. Well, gold certainly is a seductive metal. It's just so visually appealing. It's so unique in its yellow color. You really chronicle the mining issues around the world. And I want to talk to you about whether or not we're in a gold rush. And what's the state of the world as far as gold goes nowadays?

Well, when you say we're in a gold rush, I believe that we're ending what was the greatest gold rush in history because there was gold exploration everywhere in the world, on every continent except Antarctica. Now, when we think of a gold rush, we generally think of the classic gold rush, like California. In California, they mined 850 tons of gold in 10 years. Today, we produce 850 tons of gold in three or four months. And at the time of the California gold rush, that was a stupefying amount of gold, 850 tons. Today, you know, it's a drop in the bucket. Gold is a $20 trillion a year business. But I call it a gold rush because there was, unlike California, it was the sort of classic gold rush that people in the, in the business call an area play. In other words, someone finds gold in a given area and then everybody else rushes there and digs for gold here. It was price driven. So it was that the price converted all kinds of marginally prospective land in various parts of the world into suddenly hot land. Because where gold was worth $800 an ounce in, say, 2008, at the time Lehman Brothers collapsed, gold price shoots up, and in less than three years, it's worth $1,900 an ounce. So that makes all kinds of gold targets all over the world. All of a sudden, ground that was not worth exploring before is suddenly very worth exploring. And that's what created this phenomenal gold rush, where they were drilling everywhere. They were going back to old mines that had been closed and reopened.

And the technology is so much better nowadays. You know, when you made the comparison to the amount of gold being mined today within three or four months versus 10 years during the California gold rush, it made me think of. I couldn't help but go to the oil and natural gas situation in my mind and think of fracking has made so much more of those commodities accessible to us and I think ultimately will drive down the price. We might for the first time, really become a major, major exporter of those products. What's going on with technology in terms of gold mining?

Some of the biggest advances in technology for gold mining have to do with recovery. In the last year of the 20th century, they developed to a very large extent the heat leaching and heap leaching. Very low grade ore is profitable because it doesn't have to be trees in a plant. They just heap it up and leach out the gold with cyanide. A cyanide solution leaches out the gold and then they capture the cyanide and put it in tailings pond. I know it sounds very horrifying, cyanide, but it degrades in sunlight quite quickly. And I know in Nevada, where they do a huge amount of heat leaching, in fact, you could say that Nevada, the success of the Carlin trend is to a large extent because of heap leaching, which made a lot of the marginal ore very, very profitable ore in Nevada. The environmental people in the state there, the land and water people in the state have told me that it's just not a problem. They don't have an issue with cyanide. They have other environmental issues. Mostly they have to do with de watering because as the mines go deeper, of course they have to pump them out. And a lot of that water doesn't get back into the aquifers it's pumped from, it just evaporates. So there's a lot of water loss from the Great Basin. And I think that's the environmental issue. But to me that's the big one. That heap leaching has made marginal low grade ore profitable.

And is there anything else on the horizon? I don't know if you asked someone in the oil industry before the advent of the newer technologies if they knew that because of course we're always somewhat surprised about the next technology. But is there anything that's foreseeable, Matthew?

Well, I guess some exploration techniques are better, but I think you might be looking at different locations for finding gold. For example, under the sea there are companies now that have developed submersible prospecting systems and the Chinese in fact are building a bunch of these small submarines. And again the Chinese have licensed a very large area, some ridges I believe in the Indian Ocean that they're going to explore. But there's a Canadian company called Nautilus outside of, they're located in Toronto and they had targets somewhere near Papua New Guinea. I believe they are under their sort of volcanic fence under the sea and very rich in certain minerals. And they had a gold target there. It was very, very rich. And in fact I think they had a mining plan but they'd been unable to reach an agreement. The latest I read with the local government. But at any rate there's gold under there and the fact that Chinese are interested means that if it's, if it can be got out, it will be got out because they are now the world's biggest gold consumers as well as the world's biggest gold producing country.

Do you have any concern, and I know you made the disclaimer before we started, Matthew, that you're not a gold bug per se, but obviously you're very interested in the topic, having written two books about it. Do you think any of these new exploration or mining technologies will put some downward pressure on the price of gold?

No, I don't because I don't think that's what would put pressure on the price of gold because we're always consuming the supply, we're always eating up their reserve. So mines are always becoming potentially less rich with every day they mine. So you have to find new reserves all the time. I think the gold price is driven by human affairs. I mean, yes, I know there are technical analyses of the gold price and very qualified people who measure the amount of gold supply coming into the market, the market's demands and all that, but I think fundamentally brush that aside and get down to the core driver of gold's value, because why should it be worth anything at all? It's this feeling that ultimate, that it's an absolutely indestructible asset because we've always thought it was an asset. Man has always regarded gold as valuable, and I don't see that changing. What started the bull run in the first place, the big bull run in the price was a general failure of confidence in other asset values such as mortgages, equities, even currencies. So that when by the time Lehman brothers collapsed in 2008 and really kicked the afterburners on under the gold price, they gold prices had already been rising for like five years. So I could see that happening again. If you get into a situation like, well, just look recently, what happened when the Dow plunged because all of a sudden investors were very nervous about the emerging economies, the economies of developing countries that seem to be rather uncertain right now. So what happened? Well, the equities all fell down. Gold went up, it came $15. So I think gold is a measure of where we are in our feelings about how the world is going. If people are tranquil, then gold tends to steady down a bit.

It's the fear investment and it's also the lack of faith in currency investment. So no question about that. I agree with you. What do you think has been the effect of ETFs? There are many people out there saying, and I don't know if you have any of these slightly conspiratorial thoughts about it, but that the ETFs, this is kind of a Ponzi scheme, because the gold isn't really there, you know, the physical gold.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist about it, but I don't think you have to be a conspiracy theorist to look at the ETF scene out of the corner of your eye, because the ETFs bring a lot of volatility to the market simply because they allow so much gold to be traded so quickly. For one thing, they allow people to buy in quickly and allow people to sell very quickly. So if the bull price seems to be just, if the real price starts to go down, it's easy to sell, it's easy to unload your position. Let's say you have a holding like a spider. Well then at the end of the day the ETFs have to rebalance and by the way, the reported ETFs selling brings down the price. And then at the end of the day the ETFs have to rebalance by actually buying or selling the amount of bullion selling, in the case of sellers, to rebalance their share position so it matches up with the bullion they have. So then they sell bullion and that bullion just dumped into the market in one go because that's what they have to do. So that tends to intensify the swing. It doesn't cause it, but it intensifies price movement. So price movement, I believe anyone in the gold market would agree price movements are intensified by the ETFs. Now, whether they have the gold or not, does the spider have the gold? They say it's all in allocated accounts, meaning that their gold is held separate from any other gold. And you can go online, of course, and onto their website and navigate through and see what purports to be a picture of their gold. And then you can also look and see the bar numbers of it all. If you believe in a conspiracy, then you think that's all bunk. And have I actually looked at it? No. And has anybody gone in there and drilled the bars to make sure that they're.

No. So, you know, it's. I understand people have misgiving, probably rightfully so.

Whenever Wall street gets involved, it creates so many smoke and mirrors in any equation that everything becomes murky and engineered. And it seems like the simple basic laws of economics like supply and demand, they become very mass by these products, these financial innovations, as they call them. Talk to us a little bit, if you would, Matthew, about what you think makes gold so fascinating and so fickle. You alluded to that before.

Well, fascinating. It's only quite recently, reasonably recently, that we had any idea the antiquity of our fascination with gold. And in 1972, a backhoe operator in the town of Varna on the Black Sea coast of Bulgaria unearthed a Neolithic tomb by accident. Now, he was just a backhoe operator and he was digging the foundation actually for a little apartment building when by accident, as I say, he unearthed this tomb and they sent to the archaeologists, they opened it up and inside was this treasure of beautiful little gold objects. Any of your listeners can just go online, type in Varna, Varna Necropolis or Varnet Gold, and you'll get all kinds of images of what they found. I have a catalog from the little museum that they built there, the Varna Museum. It's got these beautiful little objects. Those objects, they dated them 6,000 years old. Neolithic men and women were treasuring these gold ornaments and making beautiful little ornaments 6,000 years ago. That's at the dawn of our civilization. That's before writing. It's before Egypt even gets going. The very dawn of our tradition of civilization. People cherish it. So you can go back to this question. Why do we value it? Writer after writer has struggled with this, including great economists and thinkers. The best anybody in the motherhood we just seem always to have. It seems to be hardwired into the human brain. I mean Jastrom, the economist at Berkeley who wrote the Golden Constant, the book that studied the relative purchasing power of gold over centuries, said he thought it was a race memory. So somewhere back there, somewhere back there glitters this impression that gold made on our very distant ancestors. In probably a brutish world when they just picked it up, this little lump of something that never corroded or rusted was malleable. They could shape it into anything they wanted. So that hasn't gone away.

I wonder if Bitcoin will stand the test of time like that, huh?

Somehow my feelings. No, I don't have anything against Bitcoin. It's what it is. I don't have the interest in it. It just doesn't have this huge cultural range that goals does.

These companies that are talking about sending probes to asteroids to mine them. This seems like the most far fetched, incredibly expensive idea ever. But apparently it's. Maybe it's not a spacecraft that would go and mine metals from heavenly bodies and bring them back to Earth. That just blows my mind. I'm sure you've read about this. I mean there's one company that's raising money and I don't know if they're near an IPO stage or not or if they're. They've already done it. But it, it's amazing to me. I mean I can't, I can't believe that would actually pencil out.

Well, I don't, I have no idea. I've never seen the sort of the math on it. But things I guess tend to seem less absurd the further we get on in time. Certainly if they do manage to figure out some way that they can retrieve this, well, I guess it wouldn't be heavy in space, would it? It would weigh nothing. But get it back into Earth without it all just Sort of blowing up or something or there's a lot of gold out there that we do know. I mean NASA just in June released this very interesting. In fact one of the, one of my interviewers told me about it. I went up and looked it up online and NASA had observing this distant stellar event in which stars had collided or there was some kind of explosive event far, far off in the galaxy. These very, very super heavy metals were created, including gold. And they could measure this how exactly? I'm not sure, but they have ways of measuring matter in distant space. And the scientists said it would be the equivalent of 50 Earth sized planets of solid gold. What would that do to the gold price?

Wow, that is amazing. Investors and speculators alike, they really have to consider this, don't they? This may not actually be that far off. There may just be a massive abundance of this. The thing that makes it valuable is its rarity. Maybe gold isn't the thing for the next 20 years. It might be the next thing for the. It might be the thing for the next five years.

I think the space mining is probably a fairly long way out. But looking at other sources like undersea mining, that's not so far out. But on the other hand, other big deposits will run out. I mean, look at South Africa. South Africa, you know, the Woodwaters run gold deposits. 40% of all the gold ever produced in the history of the world comes from that single deposit. And they're certainly running down. So these big gargantuan deposits come to an end. I don't know what the predictions are for the life of the Carlin trend. Certainly those mines are big, million ounces a year, bruisers down there. But how long can they go? Eventually they'll mine the last ounce of gold.

Well, I don't know if the last ounce of gold or the last barrel of oil will ever be mined because it'll cost $2 trillion.

For the last piece.

Well, there you are. It also becomes totally a function of price, doesn't it? I mean, whether we run out of gold or not depends on the price of gold. Gold is. If gold turns out to be $10,000 an ounce. Well, there's an awful lot of ground there that all of a sudden becomes.

A gold mine, that's for sure. One more issue along those lines, along the supply lines I'd like to ask you about is you wrote a book about diamonds. What is the title of that book?

It's called diamond the History of a Cold Blooded Love Affair.

You profiled a new diamond discovery in Antarctica, isn't that correct?

Yeah, in the Arctic. In the Canadian Arctic.

Okay, the Arctic. Wrong. Polar cap. Everybody has long criticized Beers for monopolizing the diamond market and so forth. But one thing that's interesting is I was reading an article a few years ago about how they're making diamonds in the laboratory now. And they're, they're real. I mean, they're not, you know, fake. This is an actual diamond. It's just made in a laboratory. Any thoughts about that?

Well, the, the main use for industrial diamonds, it's a very big business. In fact, the Beers is involved and they certainly don't control the diamond trade anymore. They used to, but they haven't for quite a while. The industrial diamonds. The biggest maker of industrial diamonds is General Electric. They have a big press in Ohio. I forget exactly the name of the place. I think it's Worthington or a town that sounds like that. Anyway, it's in Ohio. They make. They're generally used for industrial uses like drill bits and things like that. The actual making of gemstone diamonds. There have always been stories about this, generally about the Russians, how the Russians are making high quality gem diamonds, manufacturing them. And I was asked to comment on that by an interviewer recently in England. And I just said, well, I guess if they could actually do it and you couldn't tell the difference because so far you can tell the difference between them then would destroy the value of gem diamonds because their value is based totally on rarity. But they haven't so far and it wouldn't be. It would be very expensive to do. You would be destroying the market you were developing this technology for. So I don't know if anybody could, unless they could figure out a way to do it cheaply. But other than that, it's not complicated. You need sort of a little seed of carbon and then it's just pressure and heat that makes a diamond and you compress into a very short period what nature takes much longer to do.

In your book, we're talking about the gold book now. The Race for the World's Most Seductive metal. In your book you have a chapter on the Camp David coup. What is that about?

Well, that's about basically the end of the gold standard in 1971 when the Nixon government came to power and ended the. Ended the gold standard. It wasn't really a gold standard at the time. It was the remnant. It was the last.

It was a pseudo gold standard.

It was the last version of the gold standard, the United States dollar at the end of World War II. The United States had 75% of all the monetary gold in the world, roughly, that's generally accepted. So that would be about 20,000 tons. So the other countries after the war, they couldn't be on the gold standard because they didn't have enough gold. The US had all the gold. So other countries tied their currencies to the US dollar and the US dollar was convertible to gold.

Now what happened isn't that interesting, though? And then we backed out of the deal so we could inflate our way out of our spending problems.

Well, you backed out of the deal because it wasn't working. What happened was the economies of other countries improved after the war. And so Americans started buying Japanese cars, German cars, more foreign electronics, all things like that. But they weren't buying the same kind of amount of American goods. So what happened was American dollars flow to the country to buy these other goods. US Dollars pile up in these foreign countries, but they don't need the foreign dollars to buy US products. So they just take them to the treasury and cash them in for gold. By the time Nixon came to power, this outflow of gold had turned into a gusher. And from 20,000 tons of gold, the United States was down to 8,000 tons of gold. And Nixon put a stop to that, as we know, by simply canceling the whole deal and saying, from now on, paper is paper. That's all you get.

Paper is paper, but we will still be the bully of the world and retain the world record reserve currency status so we can control the value of that paper and the amount that we want to create of thin air. That had to be the best deal the US Ever got in history. And we'll see if we can hang on to it. It's bothering people all over the world quite substantially.

Completely the best deal.

Good. Well, give out your website if you would.

Yes, it's Matthew Hart. M A T T H E W H A R t dot net Matthew Hart. And that's got buttons for buying my book. And you can read a little about what I've done and my background and it' reviews and articles that I've written. It's very comprehensive.

Fantastic. Well, Matthew Hart, thank you so much for joining us today.

Well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it a lot. Jason.

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