1762: Collective Report, Construction Workers Shortage, Lunch with Robert Kiyosaki, Elon Musk Space X, Logan Mohtashami, Zillow Debacle, Big Drop in Home Prices Could Take Awhile

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My name is Jeremy. I'm a big supporter of Jason Hartman and grateful to Jason for a lot of what I've learned over the last four years. I can attest to him. We've had some good success using the strategies, being a little more conservative on some of the decisions, so we've purchased a couple of properties through Jason's network. I feel like I owe a lot to Jason and the team.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1762. 1762. And thank you for joining me and greetings from beautiful Scottsdale, Arizona. Just finished the collective Mastermind event this weekend. It was our inaugural kickoff event. We had probably 50, I guess we had about 55 people attend, something like that. And again, this is the new Mastermind group that I launched with George Gammon and Ken McElroy. And it is kind of an elite group, fifty thousand dollar annual membership fee. So not inexpensive by any means. But again, that's sort of one of the things that it's for, is that you know that everybody in the room is doing some big stuff and there's capital raising opportunities and just all kinds of stuff. So it was really a great weekend. We went race car driving and I tell you, I have never done that before. I mean, go karts, yes, but never actual race cars. And if you have not done that, put it on your bucket list. It's pretty darn fun to drive these 800 horsepower horsepower beast cars and skid them around the track and not worry about crashing. And, well, I mean, you always got to worry about crashing, but, but to be reckless a little bit and to go really, really fast, it was a lot of fun. And then Saturday evening we had just an incredible fashion show. If you're Friends with me on Facebook and you happen to see the fashion show and the dinner and all the lights and the flowers. I mean, it was just, it was maybe better than any high end wedding I've ever been to. It's pretty nice. We could easily hold weddings at these events because they are. It's just off the top, you know, or is that the right word? Anyway, it's over the top. That's the right word. Anyway, so it was a great event. And if you're interested in the collective, talk to us about it because we'd love to have you. Our next event is in February in Florida. So that's the plan for that. So construction workers, we have a. Do you know what I'm going to say? We have a shortage. Yes, a shortage. Imagine that. There's so many shortages everywhere, right? And a shortage of construction workers. Of course, we've talked about this before, but Real Trends is out with a new study on this. And they say construction worker shortage has reached crisis levels. Crisis levels. There are currently 300,000 to 400,000. I mean, those are insane numbers. 300 to 400,000. Almost half a million open construction jobs on a monthly basis. That is absolutely staggering. So the story goes on to say if people are looking to switch careers and looking for an path that doesn't require a college degree, they could do a lot worse than getting into the building trades. Now remember, our embattled former president Donald Trump was really promoting vocational and trade education and work and wanting to really expand this part of the workforce versus people getting sold overpriced, worthless college degrees. He was really a fan of promoting this kind of work. And I gotta tell you, I agree. It's a good thing. We need more people doing this type of stuff in this country. And they can make very good money if you subtract the cost of an overpriced student loan for an overpriced college degree. And look again, I'll say it, I'm not anti college. I'm just anti college. Rip off. And that's what it's become. Decades ago, college used to be reasonably priced and they weren't promoting worthless degrees. If someone goes to college to get a STEM degree, if they're in the sciences, if they're in engineering, if they're in medicine, you know, technical stuff, I mean, that's great, that's awesome. And you need college for that. But pretty much every other profession does not require a college degree. We spent time yesterday just going back to the collective for a minute. We had lunch at the home of Robert Kiyosaki yesterday and before. And by the way, going to Kiyosaki's personal residence was just a great experience. It was just a beautiful, beautiful luncheon. It was about four hours long. So we spent about four hours at Robert Kiyosaki's home yesterday here in Phoenix. And it was just a great experience. But before we went to his home, he talked. He. He gave a presentation at the. At the resort where we're. Where we hosted the event. And he talked about how he was a C student and how he didn't really like school and he struggled with school and so forth. And, you know, different strokes for different folks, right? There are people who are great students and they're good at school. And, you know, just my own personal experience with school, when I liked the class and the teacher or the. Or the professor, because I did go to college for two years, I was into it, and I got good grades, you know, when it was a thing that interested me. But there were so many things that just didn't interest me, and my grades weren't that good. So it was a very mixed bag. You know, it was funny. And I'll tell you, one of my college courses, I actually flunked it, and I took it again. I flunked it even though I loved it. I know that sounds kind of odd. And that was Introduction to Logic Philosophy. You know, I just didn't want to do all the homework, and that's why I didn't pass the first time. But I took it again because I just loved the topic. I was so interested in how they actually construct dialogue with math. It's actually mathematical, which is fascinating to me, you know, and I just didn't do much of the homework the first time, even though I was very interested in the topic. And I took it again and I passed it. Yeah. So, you know, it's not for everybody. School is not for everybody. And nowadays you can learn so much. I mean, information is free, right? And that's the world we live in nowadays. It hasn't always been that way. You know, Andrew Carnegie, when he donated so much of his fortune to create our library system, he really expanded access to information to the entire country. And that was a great thing. Of course, before him, Gutenberg, with a printing press in what, the 1400s, expanded access to information. You know, before that, it was only like the high priests, all the religious denominations that had the information, right? And so then the Internet came along, and of course, it's just completely democratized information. Now, granted, it's censored and it's a. And it's a scam and all of that stuff. But there's still a lot of great information out there. You know, you can just learn the Elon Musk says that he basically learned how to do rocket design and rocket science by just surfing around the Internet. And he runs SpaceX, of course, that's his company. And it's going to be an incredibly valuable company. It already is. And he's really revolutionized access to space, you know, with SpaceX. And so it's phenomenal. You know, you can learn rocket science by watching YouTube videos. It's an amazing time. Or the Khan Academy, another great resource. So it's just not what it was. And anyway, I took a picture at Robert Kiyosaki's house in his garage. We took a picture together. You know, it was at the back of his Ferrari. And on his Ferrari it has a license plate that says C on his yellow Ferrari. And he brags about being a C student. And there is a point to that, right? There is a point to it. So there's no shame in blue collar trades in being a construction worker. This is a necessary part of the economy, especially nowadays. I hold a lot more respect for people that do these jobs than someone that goes gets some funky, worthless college degree, right? And you know, of course we need the humanities and we need philosophy and we need all that great stuff. But again, you got to do what is practical in the world and what pays you where you can earn a living and support yourself and your family, right? So the construction industry needs more than 61,000 new hires every month if we are to keep up with both industry growth and the loss of workers, either through retirement or simply leaving the sector for good, said Homebuilders Institute CEO Ed Brady. From 2022 through 2024, this total represents a need for 2.2 million new hires for construction. That's a staggering number, unquote. Now, what does this mean to us as real estate investors? Well, of course it means upward pressure on the price of housing because we have shortages of all these materials that we've talked about extensively. Of course, we've talked mostly about lumber that went way up. It came down some, but it's still very expensive compared to its price 20 plus months ago and all of the other materials for housing. I mean, I went over that just recently on a podcast and on a live stream. So it's truly amazing. The article says since the last housing bubble burst, when there were a million residential construction workers who lost their jobs. A shortage has developed. Now the need for new housing supply is acute. It's an acute need for new housing supply. 12 million households have formed since 2012, yet only 10 million units were built during that time. So there's a 2 million unit shortage right there. Right. Per an analysis of Bureau of Labor Statistics by the national association of Home Builders, the construction worker shortage has reached crisis level. The situation will only become more challenged in the coming year when other industries rebound and offer competitive wages and benefits to prospective employees, said Brady. So this is truly phenomenal. Okay, now let's talk about the pay for these construction workers because this when we talk about, and I've taught you over the years about packaged commodities investing or assembled commodities investing, my trademark terms to explain the Hartman risk evaluator to mitigate downside risk when investing in real estate. So we've talked about that many times and we need to examine all components or ingredients in this recipe that is needed to build a house. Right? And this is one of the huge components, the construction worker shortage. The pay. The article says the pay is also typically higher than the US Median wage, with half of the payroll workers in construction earning more than $50,000 a year compared to the U.S. median wage of $49,000 per year. The top 25% of construction wage earners make at least $71,000 compared to $67,410 in the U.S. overall. There you go. Now I just want to caution you, don't confuse that with median household income. That's different. Obviously that's a higher number. This is just for the single worker when talking about construction workers and comparing them to other jobs. So really quite acute and very much inflationary pressure. Not only general inflation in the economy, but also inflation of real estate prices. And speaking of inflation, Thanksgiving is coming up now. One year ago, a 16 pound turkey cost $28.80. That was one year ago for Thanksgiving last year. This year, the same 16 pound turkey, same weight, no shrinkflation here or skimflation. This is just turkey to turkey, apples to apples. But that same 16 pound turkey cost $55.20. It has almost doubled in price in just one short year. Now this is a source from the Texas A&M Ag Life Extension College. Okay? And there you go. This is set to be the highest projected cost of Thanksgiving in history this year. So if anybody actually thinks there's no inflation, they are really not paying attention because inflation is very significant, very severe. The turkey price has almost doubled. And as I've Said many times, I think the real inflation numbers right now are about 12% annually. And think about it, even the official inflation numbers. Oh, and by the way, this is one of the things we clarified over the weekend when Robert Kiyosaki was on stage yesterday is that, you know, we've talked about negative interest rates and how you arbitrage the mortgage and you get paid to borrow money off. Obviously that's my trademark technique called inflation induced debt destruction. Been talking about that for 18 years. But like I said, I think last week this is probably. Well, not probably. Well, it depends when you were born, right? But if you were born before the early 1940s then this won't be true for you. But most of you listening probably weren't born before the early 1940s. So in your lifetime, and certainly in my lifetime, this is the first time ever in your lifetime or my lifetime where official inflation numbers are higher than 30 year fixed rate mortgages. That is truly amazing. For years, as I've been teaching you about inflation induced debt destruction, the official inflation numbers were slightly lower than the mortgage rates. But now officially, now the unofficial numbers, always the, you know, the real inflation rate is much, much higher than the official numbers because they are a lie. They lie to us through weighting, substitution and hedonic indexing. And of course I've taught you about that over the years. But now the official rate of inflation is higher than the mortgage rate. So the opportunity for inflation induced debt destruction for getting paid to borrow is nothing short of phenomenal today. So take advantage of that. Reach out to us@jason hartman.com Let us connect you with some of our best investment property lenders. You will be able to outsource that debt repayment to make it a self liquidating debt. You'll be able to outsource it to your tenants. And that is just a beautiful, beautiful equation. It's part of my ultimate investing equation strategy. Okay, now part two of today's episode. We're going to listen into an interview with a guest who's been on the show several times and that is Logan. He's a good economist, he writes all sorts of great articles and we're not actually having him on the show today. We're going to play a small part of another interview he did that I was listening to when he was on the housing wire show. And this is quite fascinating. So I think you're going to enjoy it a lot. He's talking a lot about the Zillow debacle and I completely agree with him. When he says that it'll be very unlikely for the CEO to stay. Right. And you all know about this fiasco with Zillow, right? We've all relied on zestimates, Zillow's estimate of value, the zestimate. Right. For many, many years. And clearly now we see that those zestimates are not reliable because Zillow used their own pricing algorithms to buy over half a billion dollars worth of property. And they are taking huge, huge losses. It's staggering. Now maybe, maybe they'll hold them long enough and the market will start to catch up with them. One of the things I think they could do to be smart, but I don't know if their financial structure probably doesn't allow them to do this, but they could sell those properties and finance them and carry back seller financing and probably earn a decent yield on that. If they were short term loans, you know, maybe they could offer sort of a specialty loan program. But it's, it's a complete nightmare that Zillow has created for themselves. And we'll see how it unfolds. It continues to unfold, but it's, it's absolutely crazy. So we will wrap it up with a small part of this interview and let's listen in. And of course, we'll be back Wednesday with a lot more reach out to us. If you need us, Jason hartman.com or in the US you can call us at 1-800-hartman and we haven't even talked about the Zillow stock price and how it's taken a huge hit because of this. So, yeah, it's absolutely going to be really fascinating to watch this fiasco play out. All right, here we go with the interview.

Well, welcome, Logan. So glad to have you on HousingWire Daily today.

It's a pleasure to be here.

We wanted to talk, we had scheduled you to talk already because we wanted to talk about your article on waiting for home prices to drop and some of that news. And then yesterday we got the announcement from Zillow that they were stopping their iBuying program and really wanted to. You wrote a great piece for us last night and would love to talk about that first. So let's jump into Zillow if that works for you.

Yes. You know what, the Zillow story isn't too shocking, but you know, their stock price had been going down for, for some time and you know, everyone was talking about how they were overpaying, but to the extent that their models, you know, when models go wild, they go bad. And then you have to shut down your business model. It must have been a really big, big shock to them how, how much they were losing money on these purchases. So, you know, the whispers were going around for months now that Zillow was overpaying. But to this extent I would be surprised if the Zillow CEO even survives this because most likely more info will come out over the next few months. But this was, you know, again, for my work has always been housing is always the cost of shelter to your own capacity to own the debt. You know, it's primarily always driven by mortgage buyers. But when you're in it for, for money and the kind of flipping has been falling for the last 11 years, even the profit margins were flipping. So it just kind of seemed like they were really overpaying now and the price growth and we talked about that in the article we wrote for HousingWire yesterday. It just didn't seem feasible. But I just assumed that they knew they were losing the money and they weren't. And I think that's the big story, that if they were surprised that this was happening, that's a management issue more than anything else.

I think that's a great point because to your point, when we saw that, oh wow, you know, I mean, those reports came in that they were paying $150,000 over what it seemed like a house was worth or something like that, then we all just assumed, well, they must have a strategy behind that. That must be part of like the, you know, I think something you mentioned was Amazon strategy just, okay, we're going to just grab market share so we don't care if we overpay. But if instead it was that they didn't realize they were overpaying, that's a larger issue. And I think one of the a quote you pulled out in your article from Zillow CEO Rich Barton where he said, we've determined the unpredictability in forecasting home prices far exceeds what we anticipated. I thought that was very interesting.

It is in the sense that the rate of growth, of pricing is unsustainable. If you thought that was going to continue, let's assume they had a six month pricing model. You would need a credit boom to facilitate that. Something like we saw from 2002 to 2005, we didn't have that this year. I mean, housing demand is stable, we're at pre cycle highs, but there is no credit boom. So in a sense, Zillow is the overpaid housing entity. Now they're so tiny in the scope of things out of the total home sales. But it just really shows how bad the concept was if there was an actual coherent game plan to lose money and it was okay, they were to take market share, but it wasn't. So this was a major, major bad management call because they should have been, or even if their models were telling them home price was going to grow, the rate of growth is just not there. And that's why flipping hasn't been that big of a thing lately. So I think it's. I honestly believe this. I don't know how the CEO survives if more information comes out or if people were raising the red flags on this a few months ago. So it's pretty early in this, but it is a big oops.

Well, you know, especially, you know, some people are jumping on this going, you know, iBuying is unsustainable as a whole model. But that's not exactly true. I mean, we do have, we have offer pad. You have other people doing, you know, the right, doing it, if you want to say the right way, or at least a more profitable way than this. So I don't think that, I think it's too much of a stretch to say because Zillow didn't do a good job on this. Ibuying as a whole is just, you know, is dead in the water. What are your thoughts?

Here's, here's the thing. When housing becomes a profit model, or you need a business model around the price of it, you have to be very careful because home, home buyers, in a sense, they buy it for shelter. But if you're trying to compete with other people, then I don't know where the profit margins are going to come from unless there is some kind of pain. You know, we used to always say, you know, cash buyers buy at a discount, they don't overpay. Right. That's kind of the token rule. So if you're trying to make money buying something, fixing it up and selling it, if it's not for a profit, then what are you doing? You're either buying, you either just tell people we're going for market share, we're going to lose money always, or you're trying to incorporate this as a bigger model. This is one of the reasons why I don't think Amazon has got into housing. It's not that it's not that easy, but the fact that they were buying homes, paying for cash, overpriced and then losing money, and this was known for some time, not a good business model. So I understand what the other ibuyers are doing, but again, you have to have a vision and you have to have a game plan on what the purpose of this is. And if it's not to make money, then you got to let your shareholders know. And I think at some point Wall street was letting them slide on this for a long time. Not anymore. The last few months showed it and they just got boom, taken out.

Great points on that. Love that. Logan, thanks for jumping in there. That segues into the other article you wrote this week, which was the headline is waiting for a big drop in home prices. It could be a while.

Yes.

Yeah. And in that context it's really interesting because it goes back to a lot of the other things I've talked about for many years going into this crisis. Homeowners financial profiles look very good. That wasn't the conventional wisdom for those people that are saying home prices are going to go down 30, 40, 50, 60% because Americans are distressed, they can't afford their homes, they can't afford food on their plates, whatever the ideological takes are. But it wasn't, it wasn't the case. And we saw that early in Covid that certain buyers just said, I don't really need to sell, I'm just going to hold back. Six, seven weeks later, the market started coming back. Okay, now I could sell. Homeowners not only looked good going into this crisis, they got a lot better. Right? And some of those charts that I put into that article, you know, household debt service payments as a percentage of personal disposable income, all time lows. Now the same with mortgage payments as well. The quality of loans are that these are fixed long term debts. They're tedious products. Right. They're 15 to 30 years. Homeowners are staying in their homes longer. You know, that's such, such an important story because the velocity of inventory doesn't move like it used to. People think that the housing market is like a stock. This is why these, these crash people have been wrong for going into year 11. Now people buy their homes to live in. They live there, their kids go to school, they raise their families. They don't look at it as an investor. And this is why the constant theme I try to bring is housing is the cost of shelter to your own capacity to own the debt. In theory, the marketing pitch is all, is it a good time to sell? Well, if it's a good time to sell, that means you have to buy, right? So the whole pitch, the whole pitch is a fraudulent pitch. If you're selling, you're selling to buy or in theory you maybe rent A home, but typically you sell to buy another one. So the equation is flawed because people go, well, it's a great time to sell. Okay, well, it has to be a great time to buy too, right? So it's just there's so much more to the housing economic story. It's terribly boring, I know, but it explains a lot of the things that goes on. In that article for Housing Wire, I just wanted to show that, wow, homeowners looked really good going into this crisis. Boy, they look a lot better now. I mean, the last two years you could say that homeowners in America have never looked this good. Maybe in the history of not US economics, but you go back to Cleopatra days. The amount of their fixed low debt payments with these long term debt structures in here, boy, they're solid. They could sit there. Why? Because the cost of shelter for them is not that much compared to what it is out there.

Well, and some of the points that you made in that article was the fact that home tenure is now so much longer. So now we're closing in like 10 years. People stay in their homes. So the idea, and we'll see it, I'm sure you've already seen it. You are, you know, you are the master at social media. People using the Zillow example to say, you know, oh, this is. In fact, I had a conversation with someone in my family last night who was like, so does this mean housing's about to crash if Zillow had to do all this? And I was like, oh my gosh, no.

This is why my job was to always go after the housing bubble boys. The forbearance crash, Bros. The anti central bank people. These people have been wrong for year 11 now because they're not data people. But the narrative of how housing gets discussed. And I wrote that in the Zillow piece. We just had the weakest housing recovery ever from 2008 to 2019. I separate my work in those two timeframes. You don't have a housing crash when demand is soft. Running into it just doesn't work that way. So people are prone to fall for these YouTubers and anything. And this is why I've argued Some of these YouTube people talked about Q4 housing being in a crash. Everything is a crash to these people. It's like they wake up in the morning and go, housing has to crash. Because I honestly believe this. The great American bears of our lifetime, Right? When housing crashed, they really pushed on it. And when they really pushed on it, they talked about how this is not, you can't buy a home. Why would you buy a home? Home prices are going to go down. You know what, your equity is going to get wiped out. These are truly bearish American people and they lost. America won. America itself, its people has crashed. These people, why? And they will never change because they wake up every morning. They are the troll. They are not the detective.

Well, you have been the detective throughout this process and we so appreciate that. I think, you know, to really understand what a crash would mean or even what a huge drop in home prices. So you know, the article you wrote this week was like waiting for a big drop in home prices. So even if it wasn't a crash, the whole thing is like if you have people who have, they have a low payment right now, I mean they just, they refi, they've got a great rate housing tenure is going up. What would, what would incentivize them to sell at a loss? That's what would have to happen for home prices to drop.

The way I pitch this is that after being wrong for 10 going into year 11, now, now the now the conventional wisdom is that educated high cash flow home or very positive cash flow homeowners have to willingly sell you their homes at a 40 to 50% discount with no market bid in housing during that period with rates. And like I said, I am so tedious with my work that I give people sales ranges, mortgage rate levels, things to work off of inventory channels. This is not very sexy. I know, but it gives people a pathway. So sub 3.75% interest rates with the biggest housing demographic patches or with the most positive cash flow homeowners ever. And these people are going to willingly sell you their homes at a 30, 40, 50% discount just to justify some of the more tyrannical, trolling American bearish people of our lifetime. No. Could you imagine telling your wife or your husband, oh, by the way, so and so said the house is going to crash. Let's put our home on the market at a 40 to 56% under the market bid and sell our home there so we could get out of it and lose the nested equity. This has gone to the parts of insanity right now. And this is why the housing crash people who said 2021, the forbearance crash grows, Americans are poor, they're going to sell their house at a major discount. Does not happen. Right? It doesn't operate. You need forced selling. What we had this year is forced bidding is the opposite. So there has to be a model created. And that's why I Always say, every housing crash person you meet, ask them for their total sales forecast. Ask them where their home price decline is based on their models. They will never give you an answer why none of these people work that way, right? They are not the detective, they are the troll.

So George Gammon, Jason Hartman and I have, we've created a high level mastermind group called the Collective. The goal of the Collective is for you to learn from the three of us as well as of course the other members on how to build and more importantly, how to maintain your wealth. In this video we're going to go into detail about what the Collective is and what it can do for you. Enjoy. So I'm Ken McElroy, I've been in real estate for over 30 years. Started with a two bedroom, two bath using my own money and now I own over a billion dollars worth of real estate that I bought over the years. Built a big company, we have a construction company, a development company, a property management company, and of course an investment company. And typically now we syndicate and work with large, both private and public institutions for the equity and the debt. And so what I bring to the Collective is how to scale, how to grow. Starting with one really small property with no experience at all and growing it into an organization which I've been able to do that basically runs almost without me. So that's what I'm going to bring to the Collective. We decided to start the Collective because one I met George Gammon and George brings a very interesting perspective about the economy and the Fed and the way money works and Bitcoin and alternative types of investments, which quite honestly I was super focused on real estate almost the entire time and even I want to be a little bit more diverse. So when I talk to George and to Jason, they're always doing very, very different things. On the investment side, Jason specifically is more focused on the single family housing and what's going on in that market so that we could collaborate and have different viewpoints on different things. And so that's why I thought the Collective would be good because I think everybody's kind of searching for the same kinds of answers. So the Collective means to me basically the collective group, the whole. And I've always been a big believer of team and collaboration. So for me it really means collaboration of everyone kind of coming into a room and learning from each other based on their individual highs and their individual lows and to be very, very respectful of all their independent views on things and to be more open minded, transparent and authentic. So I cannot Wait for the group to get together each and every quarter. Because we all have very different walks of life that we're going through. And so it's very, very cool to get into one room with like minded people. I think the right person for the collective is somebody who's into personal development, somebody who's trying to be a better individual, somebody who's trying to have that work life balance, trying to figure out good decision making on the investment side, specifically good decision making on the personal side perhaps, certainly on their health and on their wealth. The members that have already signed up are people typically that have businesses that they're growing, businesses that they've started, or businesses that they've sold. So typically they're higher net worth and they're trying to figure out what to do with their money. They're probably a little bit afraid of inflation, they're probably a little bit concerned about where to invest. And they're obviously looking at real estate as one component. Somebody that's trying to do the right things both on the personal side and on the financial side. So some of the experiences that members can expect from to get out of the collective are certainly the network and I think that's always super powerful. I've been involved in groups like this before like EO and ypo, the Entrepreneurs Organization and ypo, which is Young Presidents Organization, which is kind of a peer to peer network. And I that's what I envisioned and I think people are going to certainly get that out of there. They're going to have lifelong friends for sure from this and they're going to meet people at every single single event. But also we're going to have fun. So as an example, things like race car driving and doing all kinds of really cool things and meeting celebrities and things like that and fashion shows are going to be part of it. So it's kind of a how do we have fun and learn together? And we're going to have that at each and every event. So thanks for watching. If you guys are interested, there's a link below you can click on. It'll take you right to the website which has a load of information on exactly what the collective is, where the next events are, and what exactly you'll be getting if you become a member. Thanks for watching.

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