1771: Protect Yourself From Inflation, Largest Wealth Transfer We’ve Ever Seen, Are We in a Housing Bubble? Hartman Comparison Index™ Part 1

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My name is Andrew and I live in the Pacific Northwest. So far, I've got six properties in about three and a half years and I'm pretty happy about it. And it's all because his team of experts and just his. His knowledge and his time that he spent doing it, he can really guide you through it. And his podcast is excellent and I highly recommend it for anybody, whether you're a beginner or an expert. There's a ton to learn there and it'll help you get to the next level.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to episode 1771. 1771. Boy, those numbers are getting a little harder to say as they get higher and higher. I love it though. I'm glad we have a lot of episodes. A wealth of information free at your fingertips for you. Yes. Well, greetings from Scottsdale, Arizona. Yes, I am here again. The last time I was here was for our Collective Mastermind event and we just had one of our monthly zoom calls for the members of the Collective. Tonight, head of Very interesting conversation on the stock market versus the bond market and what it's signaling for. Mortgage rates and then property prices and then the totalitarian things that are going on in the world. When you look around the world at these other countries and you think, could it happen here? Well, what is happening in democratic countries is absolutely startling. It is really, really startling. But hey, we'll stick to the financial topics. And speaking of financial topics, I was in Sarasota, Florida before I came here celebrating Thanksgiving in Sarasota and my mom has been purchasing some rentals. This weekend I met with her in Sarasota and then I flew out here to Arizona and I've been looking at properties and I cannot believe how competitive These housing markets are just absolutely incredibly competitive. Multiple offers on everything. It really makes you think there is a tulip mania going on. But then you look at the numbers and you look at the payments and when I'm surfing around the Internet looking at properties for example, and many of the sites now of course calculate the mortgage payments and the taxes and the insurance for you automatically. And in context, the payments are actually quite reasonable.

Yes, I know the prices seem high. I get it. When you're paying cash, the prices are high. I mean of course they're adjusted down for inflation. If you compare them to the price 20 years ago and if you compare them to other things as the Hartman Comparison Index, which we are going to be taking a deep dive into that today with a live presentation I did in Snowbird, Utah just recently. I know, I talked about that. Well, we are sharing that presentation with you today and I want to tell you that I was one of two keynote speakers at this event and the attendees for this event paid $15,000 to attend. And you get it for free. Yes, you get it for free, part one today and part two on Wednesday. So you'll get they and the entire speech for free. Save your $15,000 and buy another property. How's that sound? But anyway, looking at those monthly payments, they are so reasonable. Why? Because the interest rates are so artificially low. And that is a phenomenal opportunity. But again, it's all about the debt based asset class and the incredibly cheap money. So the decision we as investors have to make is if we're thinking now this is the context of oh, I'm waiting for a correction, I'm waiting for a crash, I'm waiting for the market to change and then I'll have a bunch of cash and I'll swoop in and buy everything. Yes, you've heard it and you probably had that thought yourself, didn't you? Yes, I know you did. I know you had that thought because we all have. And I hear it, I hear it somewhat regularly. I hear that thought. But here's the problem. First thing is ask yourself the question if the correction happens, and undoubtedly there will be a correction at some point in the future. But what is going to cause the correction? The greatest likelihood of that cause will be more expensive money, more expensive mortgage money. We're dealing with a debt based asset class in a debt based economy where literally our currency units are created by lending. All money is debt, money is lent into existence. Of course we've talked about that before over the years. So the question we have to Ask ourselves as investors, assuming we're thinking, oh, there's a correction coming, right? And there's always a correction coming in the broader context. But do we want the property cheap or do we want the money cheap? Do we want the property cheap or do we want the money cheap? Now we know that we have almost, they're not quite as low as they were, but we have almost the lowest interest rates in 5,000 years. Yes, you heard me right. Read David Graeber, the late David Graeber's book, debt the first 5,000 years. It is a fantastic work, really good book, highly recommended. And you just realize when you look at very, very long term interest rates over the course of millennia, money is incredibly cheap. And when there is a correction, most investors sit on the sidelines thinking it will get more corrected, if you know what I mean, the price will go down even further. So how do we know when we're at the bottom, when it comes to prices? We don't know. We never know. But when it comes to the price of money, we have a lot of wealth, just a huge amount of historical reference. And when the interest rates are so low that they're quite literally near zero and the only way they can go is negative and arguably we do. Well, not arguably, actually, actually, truthfully, reality, we have negative interest rates now vis a vis inflation. And for the first time in probably anybody's lifetime listening, we have the official rate of inflation.

Higher by a factor of more than double the owner occupied mortgage rate. That is truly, truly incredible. So do not miss the opportunity. Do not miss the opportunity. Okay, you want the money cheap or do you want the property cheap? Well, in the future you might think the property's cheap now because every deal looks great in the rear view mirror, doesn't it? Yes, it always does. I was talking to Ashley about this today. There's a lot of FOMO in this business. There is a lot of FOMO in the real estate business. Yes, I know. If you look back and you think of the properties that maybe you owned and you sold and you look them up and see what they're worth today and you think, why did I ever sell that? Right. We've all had that thought. Yes, we have. We've been investing or, or just owning personal residences. We've had that thought. So a lot of fomo. Fear of missing out, Right. You look back in time and every deal looks fantastic in the rear view mirror. And if we're not in a position because we followed my 10 commandments of successful investing, if we're not in a position where we ever need to sell because we know that cash flow investing is quite reliable and appreciation investing is very unreliable, very speculative. We simply hold on to the property with our super cheap money. And if the property does get cheaper, who cares? We just keep it. And the way we ride any economic storm is with our super cheap money, our super cheap mortgage rates. And if those mortgage rates get lower again, you'll probably see more and more flare up in prices and higher prices as housing affordability increases due to lower interest rates. But the question, of course, how much lower can they go, right? Not much in terms of mortgage rates, a lot of reference with rates, not much reference with property prices. Now, I know some of you are thinking, well, Jason, I can show you a chart of property prices over the last 10 years or 20 years or 50 years or 100 years. Of course you can. But each time you look at that market cycle and if you give it a 10 year span anywhere, the price is higher and it's higher and it's higher and it's higher. It never goes down over a long enough span. Right? So of course you can try and time the market, but it gets really, really silly to do that when you've got such cheap money because timing, the money doesn't get much better than it gets now. And I think that's one of the reason, of course, the markets are so, so competitive. So competitive. All right, without further ado, let's get to our guest today, yours truly. Yes, yours truly. I am the guest today and we will get the part one of my Snowbird Utah speech. So let's go ahead and dive into that. If you need us, of course, reach out Jason hartman.com or in the United States, you can actually pick up the phone and call us 1-800-hartman. We're always here for you. And you know, remind me of, I need a reminder, folks. Remind me. I didn't get a chance to talk about it today, but I want to talk to you more about tax planning and the two tax codes, which really are sort of like how I talk about the two economies, the time and effort economy and the results economy. You've heard me talk about that many times over the years. But the two tax systems we have, we have two in this country. We have the 1040 tax system and we have the 1041 tax system. We got to talk about that on a future episode. Okay, we'll do that. But let's dive into the HCI and some other stuff I think you'll really like. This, this talk that I did. Hey, the audience loved it, I'll tell you that much. So here it is.

Welcome to the stage, Mr. Jason Harvick.

How you doing? How you doing? Isn't this great? How many people live in Salt Lake or this area at all? Everybody. Mostly people from out of town. You know, I'm from mostly Southern California, but I've been living in Palm Beach, Florida for the last three and a half years. And it is just such a treat to come up here and see the leaves changing in that crisp mountain air. I just, I love the mountains. So great place to have an event. Let's give Bridger a hand. And it's just kicking off really nicely. So awesome to be here. So today, I hope I can answer a big question. That is a question we get a lot. I basically have a few businesses, but my main business is a real estate investment referral network. And so we have thousands of investor clients. We help them build portfolios of mostly single family homes nationwide. And the question I get from our clients and from my podcast listeners and YouTube followers is the question, are we in a bubble? And is that bubble going to pop? So I'll try and answer that question for you today, but also I will try and tell you why it doesn't matter that much. Yes, really, I'm serious when I say that it doesn't matter that much. So the bubble question will try and answer that one. And just a little background on me. I have a YouTube channel and I did a video right after I met Bridger back in maybe January or early February of this year. And this got over 800,000 views. It's definitely the most viewed video of all. I'd encourage you to check it out because I dive very deep into this subject of inflation and how it impacts our investments and how really we can game the system, how we can win because of inflation. Sadly, it hurts most people. And what the governments around the world and the central banks around the world, and especially our government and our central bank, speaking as an American is doing to people is literally criminal. It's awful. I mean, what they're doing is disgusting. It is a crime. It is thievery on the highest level. But we can protect ourselves. We can win with this system. And we can help investors in funds or following our investment plans win as well. And I always say that governments and central banks are the two most powerful forces, except for God, that the human race has ever known. They are. They are the two most powerful forces. And, you know, we can complain about what they're doing. We can philosophize about what they're doing. We can do that all day long, but it won't change. What they're doing is financial repression in just a massive way. And 911 gave them more license to do that. Just over 20 years ago, the Great Recession increased their power to do this even more. And then, of course, the pandemic, and I inserted that L on purpose, by the way.

Gave them even more license to do what they're doing. So let's kind of dive in and talk about how we can beat the system, how we can help our investors beat the system as well. And I think it will help you attract more investors. And that's what we're all here for, right? So just a little background on me. My investment business holds live events, live conferences. We just had one a couple of weeks ago in Orlando. And this wasn't that event. This was another event. But we do lots of live events and podcasting. YouTube. I also own a software company called Real Estate Tools. Its flagship product is called Property Tracker, and that helps people analyze and track real estate investments. And one of the things that I Learned back in 2004, when I originally got into this business of helping people invest in properties nationwide, is you must standardize data, Right? You must standardize data. Very, very important. And this software has really helped me do that and helped our investors do that. With the podcasting, I've got about 6,000 podcast episodes now. My main show is called the Creating wealth show, and that's over 1700 episodes. I started podcasting back when nobody knew what a podcast was in about 2005, 2006. And, you know, I learn so much from interviewing all these guests. I've had eight serious presidential candidates on my show. Ben Carson, Pat Buchanan, Steve Forbes, whole bunch of others. And I just learned so much from talking to these people and interviewing them all day. It's a great source of business, but I tell you, I do it for free, just for the education. It's pretty awesome to learn from all these people. You know, when you look at the dollar and you look at what has happened to the dollar since the Federal Reserve, the US Is third central bank, came into existence back over a hundred years ago on Jekyll Island, Georgia. Which, by the way, I took a bunch of my mastermind members there for a retreat at the Jekyll Island Resort. And so, just like the health care bill, Obamacare, just like the Federal Reserve, just like all of the sneaky, crappy stuff our government does, they formed the Federal Reserve right before Christmas when nobody was really paying attention. And since then, even though the mandate of the Federal Reserve has been meant to even out bumps in the economy and to keep the dollar strong, what has happened is the complete opposite. The dollar has lost well over 96% of its value since the formation of the Federal Reserve. And, you know, it's not a secret. I mean, it's part of what they say publicly that their goal is to have inflation. They have a target inflation rate of 2% pre pandemic. But since then, Jerome Powell has just said, we don't care about the 2% target. Whatever it takes is, you know, we're just going to pump so much money into the system or so many currency units that, you know, the 2% targets out the window. And how many of you think inflation right now is above 5% in real terms? Okay, so I'm talking to the right audience mostly. Now, just out of curiosity, how many people think it's lower than 5%? Okay, so how many people aren't voting?

How many people, like the last election are voting more than once? How many dead people are voting? You know? Yeah, but you can't talk about this on social media. Oh, by the way. So yesterday was my birthday, and I got one of my birthday wishes yesterday. Facebook shut down for about six hours. So I thought that was pretty cool.

What these social media companies are doing is absolutely disgusting to the level of what the government Federal Reserve is doing. I mean, the censorship, it's just insane that we live in this world. For about 10 years now, I've been saying that these social media companies, one or two or three of these things needs to happen. Number one, they need to be regulated like utilities under common carrier laws. If we're talking on the phone and we say something the phone company doesn't like, they don't have the right to disconnect our service as long as we pay the bill. But then you say, well, Facebook and Twitter are free. No, they're not free. You're paying for it with your data. You are the product. We are the product when it's free. Right. Or they need to be busted up under antitrust laws or their algorithms need to be made open source and public. So we know why we see what we see when we search Google and why we don't see what we don't see when we search Google. So that's my soapbox for today. But, you know, I mean, seriously, this may be the biggest problem humanity faces. The fact that our speech is being censored. It's anathema to the idea of America. And, you know, the Constitution, possibly the most important document that has ever been created in human history because it told us that the government is here to serve the people rather than the other way around. It was really the second document in history that did that, the Magna Carta being the first. You know, this is a big deal, folks, and we all really need to be really worried about this. One of the things I talk about a lot on the podcast is how you can't hear the dogs that don't bark. You know, we don't know why we don't see what we don't see. And we don't know it exists if we never see it, if we never hear it. And that's why this is so incredibly important because it shapes the way we think. And, you know, part of that is monetary policy and fiscal policy. So it's a big deal, a big deal. But let's just talk about the money side. For example, so I was talking with my friend Ken McElroy. We actually have a business together, a mastermind group called the Collective. How many of you know Ken McElroy, the rich dad author? Yeah. And I was talking with him about a month ago about this and I said, ken, you know, I feel like I'm long on everything. I'm long on real estate. Yeah. I've got a little bitcoin, I've got some gold and silver and platinum and palladium, and, you know, I've got some S and P shares. I'm just long on everything. And, you know, if there is a bubble and if the bubble is going to pop, maybe I'm making a huge mistake. Right. But then I realized after that conversation, I'm short on one big thing, and that's the US dollar. So shorting the dollar is a really, really powerful strategy because there is no question in my mind at least, that the long term macroeconomic view is inflation. Now, granted, there may be bouts of deflation in the short term, but overall, liken it to this, there is a war going on. And the war is between bad fiscal and monetary policy on one side and really great and impressive technology on the other side. So if it was a boxing match, and, you know, you said, in this corner we have bad fiscal and monetary policy, and in this corner we have technology. The bad fiscal and monetary policy is inflationary, the technology is deflationary. Right. We'd all agree. Look, I mean, my Last iPhone cost $1,500, but my first cell phone cost $3,200. You know, of course, this one does a lot more. Technology is a deflationary force. So who will win the war of the inflation or deflation equation remains to be seen. None of us really know yet. So can technology outpace this money printing, this incredibly loose monetary policy we have? I don't think so. Even though technology will bring incredible things to us. And the reason is because technology has limits to it. But bad fiscal and monetary policy have no limits. They can create as much fake money as they want, as much fiat money. So remember, the two primary value drivers for anything in the world. Anything. Just think about this. With everything you value, you come into contact with. The two major value drivers are scarcity, right? Scarcity is one of them for sure. And the other one is utility, right? So scarcity and utility. So your significant other in your life, right? You value them because they are scarce. There's only one, right? The value of the money you have is valuable because of its scarcity. If they keep making more of it and it's less scarce, scarce, it becomes less valuable, obviously, right? And then of course, it's utility. How useful is it? Right? And so those are the two primary value drivers for anything. So what I want to talk about in the first part of my talk today is shorting the US dollar, how we can do this very successfully, efficiently, and in there, why we should do it, right, why it benefits us. So I teach a strategy called inflation induced debt destruction. I know it's a mouthful.

So let's say it 10 times fast. Inflation, Come on. Inflation induced debt destruction. Inflation induced. I'm just kidding. We won't do that. But it's a strategy about how we can win this game of the inflation problem. So we have these two idiots running the world and, you know, they are just creating money like going out of style. In fact, when I was a kid, my mom being much more frugal than I am, you know, typical kid, right? The generations, this is kind of the way it works. Except millennials are pretty frugal generation, oddly, maybe because their formative years were during the Great Recession. Possibly that's a reason. But my mom used to say to me when I was a kid, she said, jason, you spend money like it's going out of style. And what I realized when I grew up and started studying economics is that I was actually right. Because money is going out of style, okay? In fact, in the idea that it's getting less and less valuable because more and more is created. So the government has put itself in a very tough position. It has huge obligations that it simply cannot mathematically meet. And it's not just the debt it has now. It's not just the deficit that it runs, but it's also the unfunded mandates, the unfunded entitlements that it has promised to all of us and to foreign countries. Right. There is no way they can mathematically solve this problem. It is mathematically impossible. Okay, so what do they do? Well, the first thing they could do is they could simply default and say, hey, look, sorry, we. We overspent and we can't keep our promises. No Social Security, tough luck, no disability payments. We're going to have to cut back on all kinds of government services. We just overspent. Ronald Reagan, possibly the greatest president in the modern era, if you ask me, but we can argue later, he used to say, to say that the government spends money like a drunken sailor is an insult to drunken sailors. Okay? And you know, he was right about that. Right? So they could default. They could just say, sorry, you know, no deal. Right. But that's very unlikely because it's very politically unpopular. Look at what happened in Greece. Look what's happening all over these socialist European countries. They can't afford it either, and they're just collapsing right in front of us. Okay? You know, green, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy. It's just a total mess, right? The only reason the US really isn't in the same mess is because it has the reserve currency of the world. And a lot of people say this will not continue. I think they're wrong. I think the reserve currency will be the US Dollar for a long, long time because the US has the military to keep it that way. We have 12 or so aircraft carriers. We can project power all over the world. World. You know, when countries fall out of line with the system, Iraq, you know, they tend to have problems from our military. Not saying it's right, just saying it's the way it is. You know, North Korea, same idea, right? Okay, so they're not going to default. That's unlikely. They could raise taxes, eat the rich, raise the taxes, right? Well, if you taxed all the richest people at 100%, meaning that they would just, here's your money, you earn, give it all to the government and, you know, good luck living right there, still wouldn't be enough to solve the problem. In fact, I had Lawrence Kutlikoff, the Professor Lawrence Kutlikoff, on my show a few times, and he's done probably the deepest studies on the unfunded entitlement problem. And he says it is not a $60 trillion problem. Trillion with a T, as most people would say. It's a 220 trillion dollar problem. Now just understand what that means. The GDP of the entire country, in fact everything the country produces. And it's a highly manipulated statistic because this new infrastructure bill that Biden wants will be considered part of the gross domestic product, the gdp. But it's not really like production in the typical sense. It's not like something we make a widget and we export it to another country. That's real productivity. So that's counted in the GDP, and that's about $20 trillion every year, give or take. So think about how big 220 trillion is when you have a deficit every year and you already have a giant debt obligation. It's just mathematically impossible. It doesn't work. Okay? They could have a yard sale. Hey, remember 10 years ago they were talking about selling the ports to Dubai? You know, the U.S. has assets. It has all this great land. It has other assets. You know, remember years ago when they were talking about selling fighter jets to Libya? You know, a poorly managed government does all sorts of imprudent things that really aren't smart, right? So there's, you know, many examples of that. Okay, we could steal, we could use our military, as it's been done throughout history. I mean, one of the most famous militaries, leaders ever, Napoleon. Really what Napoleon was, is a thief with an army. Okay? You know, throughout history, the whole map of the world is pretty much drawn on stealing the resources of another country. It's not fair, it's not right, but it's the world. Okay? Technological innovation, this would be positive news, right? This would be great. If there's some great technological innovation that creates a ton of prosperity, this is good news, right? And hopefully that'll be the way things go. But the likelihood is inflation, because inflation makes sense. It is the best business plan for governments and central banks because inflation allows them to play the game that I just told you about. Remember that mouthful phrase, what is it? Inflation induced debt destruction. That's what the government is doing. So why not just align our interests with these two most powerful forces the human race has ever known? Governments and central banks, they're using inflation induced debt destruction. We should too. Okay, so let's get excited about this, right? What does it really mean? To understand inflation, we need to understand the difference between real and nominal. Meaning nominal just means in name only, right? That's the, the name of something. So for example, what is this.

It'S not a trick question. Anybody? A note? Yeah, see, everybody's answering the technical. It's a Federal Reserve note. No, just tell me what it's commonly known as. It's a dollar or a buck. Okay, you got it? Right. Okay, so that's what it's called today, A dollar or a buck. What was it called in 1970?

Same thing. Right. You talked about. John talked about how in 1971 Nixon temporarily suspended the ability to trade dollars for gold. And over 50 years later, here we are on this temporary government program. You know, Milton Friedman said there's nothing so permanent as a temporary government program. Right. And he was right. Definitely right. So understand, real and nominal, the name of the dollar is still the same. The value of it has changed dramatically. It's declined dramatically. And understand the difference between price and value. Understand that inflation is this insidious hidden tax. It's a pickpocket, it's a liar and a thief. And it steals the value of our savings, our stocks, our bonds and our equity in real estate. Why? Because even our equity in real estate, although real estate is the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. But our equity is denominated in what? Dollars? Right, it's denominated in dollars. So the value of that equity declines as the value of the dollar declines as well, which is a reason that we don't necessarily want to have big equity. And I'll get to more on that in a moment. Okay, so. But thankfully it destroys the value of our debt. Now I have often said that debt is my favorite four letter word, okay? Because inflation destroys the value of the debt. Think about this. Say you just get a mortgage on a house, maybe it's a rental property, and that mortgage is a 30 year mortgage, but the first 10 years are interest only. And say you borrowed, you know, $100,000, just for example, and today you get your mortgage statement and it says you owe $100,000. And in 2022 you look at another one of your mortgage statements a year later and it says you owe $100,000. But there's been some inflation, right? Maybe 4 or 5% by the official statistics. So how much do you really owe? You. You owe less. Well, let's take that all the way to 2031. We get our mortgage statement, it still says we owe $100,000. But the value of that hundred thousand dollars has been diminished through inflation. In fact, it's probably only going to be worth, and this is a somewhat conservative estimate by the way, of maybe $45,000 in real value. So if it's interest only, we didn't pay any principal over that 10 years. But inflation induced debt destruction destroyed the value of the principal balance of that mortgage. Now it also destroys, in a good way, the mortgage payment obligation. When my mother bought her first house in Los Angeles when I was a kid, I remember her being very, very worried about her mortgage payments.

And her mortgage payment on this house, the first house she ever owned, was $416 a month. She was extremely worried about how am I going to make the payment. But guess what? Over the course of time, that payment felt lighter and lighter and like less of a big deal. Four years later, in fact, it felt a lot lighter because inflation had reduced the value of the monthly payment. Even though the amount of the check every month was the same, the value of it was lower. And this is a wonderful thing. So we're going to use this to our advantage, okay? Inflation is the most powerful method of wealth redistribution. On my podcast, I actually interviewed Joe the Plumber. Remember him? Back in 2008, he walked up to Obama when Obama was campaigning and he said, you're going to redistribute my wealth. And you know, he was right. Obama did do that, by the way. But that's through taxes. That's what Joe the Plumber was talking about. Inflation is much more powerful than taxes. Taxes are for amateurs. Inflation is the pro way to redistribute wealth. If you don't believe me, just look what happened since the pandemic broke out, right? So the rich have become extraordinarily rich during this time. And the poor have become mostly poorer and the lower middle has become mostly poorer. And the upper middle, if they played their cards right and they invested in income properties and owned real estate, they got richer because of inflation induced debt destruction. And it's a transfer mechanism. It's a way to transfer wealth. In fact, one group that it transfers to and from is it transfers from lenders to borrowers, from lenders to borrowers, because you borrow at today's dollars. So you get the dollars at today's value and you pay them back at tomorrow's lower value. That's a pretty great deal, isn't it? It's like putting something on layaway. Remember when they used to have layaway before credit cards were popular? That was before my time, actually. But this concept was that the parent would go into a, they want to buy a present for their kids, they put it on a Christmas layaway, right? It would be like putting something on layaway and then coming in to pick it up before Christmas for your kid and it's on sale. It actually got cheaper, right? And that's a pretty great deal. So it transfers wealth from lenders to borrowers, but also from old people to young people. Now, most people think that the transfer of wealth between the generations is through inheritance, and that's true. That is one way. But there's a way that it happens while everybody's still alive through inflation. Why is that? Well, because most young people have debts and most older people hopefully have assets. They have savings, stocks, bonds and equity and real estate. And guess what? The savings, stocks, bonds and equity in real estate get diminished through inflation and so does the debt.

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