1803 FBF: Financing Multiple Properties & The Perfect Investment, Creating Enduring Wealth from the Historic Shift with Paul Moore

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Welcome to this week's edition of Flashback Friday. Your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has hand picked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new story slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Greetings from beautiful Palm Springs, California. Yes, I am in Palm Springs, California, enjoying a nice weekend out here. Yesterday we went to the wine country in Temecula and, and enjoyed that. And we're in Palm Springs for a couple of days. I tell you, Palm Springs, what a great little town this is. The only problem with it is that it happens to be in California. Oh, well, can't live here. You gotta pay California taxes. But it's a great place to visit, I'll tell you that. I remember coming here many, many years ago, more than I care to even calculate for. Well, in high school, this was quite a spring break place. People would come out here, high school and college, Memorial Day week, spring break, Easter break, and then really party it up. It was crazy. And then I remember a few years after high school and college, they, they kind of shut it down. They shut the Palm Springs down. They said, you know, we don't want to be a spring break destination anymore. Yeah, the money's nice, but it's not that great, I guess for all the trouble those kids caused. But it was really fun back then. And amazingly, many of the places that I would visit way back then knowing that real estate income property is such an enduring asset class, it just lasts forever. For example, many of you listening, I'm sure know there is a restaurant here that's a popular restaurant. I'm not saying it's anything great, I'm just saying that it's been here a long time. And I remember visiting this restaurant when I was maybe 18 years old. It's called Las Cas. It's still here folks. Yes, still here. That property is still here. I don't know who owns it. I don't know if the restaurant owns their own building or if a landlord owns that building, but it is still here at least 35 years later. Think I don't know when it was founded, but the Venture alliance restaurant we visited on our first Venture alliance event in San Diego years ago was there for 50 some odd years. You remember me talking about that Income property is such an enduring asset class. It really is. It is just, you know, all those same properties that you saw as a little kid in your neighborhood, if you go back to visit, guess what? The vast majority of them are still there, still producing income for their owner. And that's why we love income property. The most historically proven asset class in the entire world. Hey, if I didn't mention it, this is episode 1086. 1086. I have a quote for the day. This relates to what I was talking about last week when I was talking about the power of selecting your friendships and selecting your associations. And mostly in real life to do that, well, you need to join a mastermind group. And Carmen, who has been on the show before, was showing me or having me listened to, I guess I should say an interview with Tony Robbins. N. Pitbull? Yeah, Pitbull. The what is he a rap singer or something?

No, it's not rap. It's more of a, I guess reggaeton.

What is it? Whatever that is. Well anyway, I'm so not hip when it comes to music, but I do have great taste in music. As you know if you come to my events. I commonly DJ for all of you and occasionally I do a little karaoke like we did in Hawaii. So we were listening to this Pitbull episode and why were we listening to that? Because. Because I was thinking about hiring Pitbull to come and speak at our upcoming Meet the Masters event. His agent works with us. His agent booked Ron Paul for us. And then you know, I found out the price and I thought maybe we're not going to be hiring him. But Carmen, I got to tell you, that was a great interview. Why do you like him so much? He's got a good story, doesn't he? Yes.

And I think he's a person that is still have clear what his roots were and he doesn't forget that. So as much as success that he had now, it's just he's still a Down to earth guy.

Yeah, he is. His interview was really good. It's a great kind of Horatio Alger rags to riches story. It really is. He's a very grounded guy. From listening to that interview, I was very, very impressed with it. It's a great story. He has a saying and it reminded me of the mastermind group saying, Carmen speaks. What do you speak, four languages?

I speak Spanish and a little bit of Italian and Portuguese.

Good stuff. So growing up in Venezuela for the first 20 years of your life, this saying is good. Folks, you ready for this? You're gonna hear it first in Spanish and then in English. And you're not gonna hear it in Spanish from me. You're gonna hear it from Carmen. So, Carmen, what is this great quote for the day? I love this.

Dime con quienandas y tedire queneres.

And tell us what that means.

It means tell me who you hang out with and I'll tell you who you are.

And Pitbull said that on the interview with Tony Robbins, right?

Yeah, and that's just a very common saying, but he brought it out on that interview.

That's a great saying. Thank you for sharing that. You know, it reminds me of, like I said last week, the Jim Rohn quote, your income will be the average of the five people you spend the most of your time with. Good stuff, huh?

Yep, I agree with that.

Okay, great. Well, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. Before we get to our guest today, we're going to talk to Paul Moore about the perfect investment. The perfect investment. And hey, guess what that is, folks? I bet you can't guess you're going to hear that. No, it's not Bitcoin, and no, it's not Ethereum or any other cryptocurrency. And no, it's not gold and silver, and no, it's not the stock market. So you'll get that here in just a moment. But I want to answer a few more of those FAQs, those questions about financing, those questions about financing. One question we get all the time is we have people, they listen to the podcast, they come to our network and they say, hey, can I finance multiple properties at the same time? Can I finance multiple properties at the same time? Can I do that? Are you able to do that? Can you finance multiple properties simultaneously? And the answer is yes. Yes, but carefully. But carefully. Because that can get a little bit complicated with your credit reporting and especially if you're using multiple lenders and disclosure issues and so forth. So as I have always counseled you make sure you are working with a mortgage person who is an investment property specialist. Financing investment properties really is different than, than financing your personal residence. So it is a different thing. It really is a specialty. And of course, we at our network interview them all the time here on the show and we can offer referrals for you. And again, we don't make any money off those referrals. We simply want our clients to get good people, knowledgeable people that provide good service.

Welcome to this week's edition of Flashback Friday. Your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has hand picked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy.

Okay, another question. How's my credit score affected by multiple loan applications? Now remember last week we talked about the balance sheet concept and how many people, although hey, it sounds cool. Bragging rights love bragging about how they have an 800 plus credit score. And I say counterintuitively that, that if your credit score is higher than 720 or hey, you could even argue 740, okay, if you want to be really good, it's just too high. You know, you're not using enough of your credit. You need to use more of it. It's an unused asset. Your credit score can be affected by multiple loan applications, okay. Because that's what we're talking about here, can be negatively impacted by these multiple applications with multiple lenders, okay. Especially if you're purchasing properties in multiple states. But there is some good news, okay? Many of the lenders we work with lend in either all 50 states or the vast majority of the states you're going to want to purchase properties in. And remember, we recommend that you diversify at least three markets, but not more than five. And that initial credit report that is pulled, right, that's the tri merge credit report, all three bureaus for mortgage lending, the FICO model they use, it's good for 120 days. You can use it for a while before you go and get another inquiry on your credit report. Okay, another question that comes up and this one isn't as common, but do I have to go to a title company to close my loan? Well, this is different in different states, right? And the answer is no, you do not have to go anywhere really. Okay. Because you can use a mobile notary service. Now there is a little charge for this. They do charge money for that and it'll show up in your closing cost. But when you're buying properties all across the country, right in Three to five markets. You will want to have a notary come to you. A mobile notary service you can use. And it depends on the state. Sometimes it's the title company, sometimes it's a closing attorney, a law office does it or an escrow company. But whatever your closing agent is, you can do a mobile notary service. Okay, here's another one. Can I use a power of attorney, otherwise known as a poa, Power of attorney to do your closing? Not always. Okay. And there can be some dangers with this because remember you are giving legal rights to another party to act on your behalf so that always can have some risk to it. So you can do it. Just be cautious with it. Right. Fannie Mae says yes, you can do that. They require this person though, this power of attorney to be an actual attorney or a family member. Now remember, a power of attorney does not mean it has to be an attorney. You can give power of attorney to your spouse or your cousin or your best friend or your enemy. Okay? You can give a power of attorney to anybody. That doesn't mean they are an attorney. Right, but Fannie Mae requires that if you want to give a poa, a power of attorney to someone to close your, your real estate deal and close your loan, that person has to be an actual attorney or a family member. Now, Freddie Mac will allow a family member, attorney or friend. Friend to sign on your behalf. So I guess they can't be an enemy, but hey, they gotta be your friend. I don't know how they quantify that. Could it be just a Facebook friend, A casual acquaintance maybe? Someone I've never met? Hey, in the world of social media, strangers are definitely friends. So. And I always like that saying, strangers are just friends that you haven't met yet. There's another quote for the day. Strangers are just friends you haven't met yet. Okay, Be sure to let the lender know that you want to use a power of attorney before closing the deal. Okay, I've got a few more of these I'll get to hopefully on the next episode. But you know what time does not wait. So let's get to our guest today and talk about the perfect investment. Now before we do that, just a couple quick things. First of all, congratulations to our contest winners last week. Look for Meet the Masters sign up. It will be announced shortly. So that is coming right up. Look for that. But also one more very important and more urgent thing. Look for our Cyber Monday sale. Yes, the products that we have, that many of you have purchased and many of you I know, are thinking about purchasing, are going to be on sale, our biggest sale of the year, probably actually our only sale of the year because we don't really deal with our info products too much in terms of doing sales or promotions or anything. But, but we have one coming up and it's going to be pretty darn good. So look for that announcement probably on the next episode, Cyber Monday. Okay, let's get to our guest and talk about the perfect Investment.

It's my pleasure to welcome Paul Moore. He is managing partner at Wellings Capital, best selling author of the Perfect Investment, Create enduring wealth from the historic shift to multifamily housing. We're going to talk a lot about renters today. He's also host of how to Lose Money podcast. Love it. Hey, I've lost some money too on some deals. So I can tell you that's a good title. Paul, welcome. How are you?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on, Jason.

Yeah, it's good to have you. One of the things I want to ask you, let's start off with the topic of demographics. It's really one of my favorite topics. I am just astounded. I mean, I've been saying this for a few years, but I'm, I'm still going to say it and I'm not going to change the number of years from my chair. The next 10 years have phenomenal demographics for landlords. Now, I don't know if you agree with that or not, but what do you think? It looks pretty good to me. Kind of a bunch of factors coalescing to make that true, in my opinion. What are your thoughts?

I absolutely agree. You know, I was in my early 50s and I had all kinds of ups and downs over the years, you know, which led me to do the how to Lose Money podcast. And Jason, I was looking for something that has long term strength and predictability of demographics that I could do for the rest of my life and pass along to my 4 kids someday if they wanted to be involved. And I couldn't find anything else better than rental real estate. And I had done a lot of different things in the past, but there are a lot of different things that are driving this. As we know, the government got involved, you know, in the 90s and they were tampering with the housing market and they changed the laws and the regulations that made it possible for anybody who could fog a mirror to get a mortgage. And in 95 or 6, those, those rules were relaxed. And as many of us remember in the early 2000s, it was amazing. The people who were getting mortgages, My friend who made about 40,000 a year as a multifamily maintenance guy, seriously, he bought a $600,000.

It was actually an old mansion in a coal mining town that had gone downhill in West Virginia. And he literally made a few payments on that before it went back to the bank. And not sure what he was thinking, but at any rate, the housing ownership homeownership shot up from the early. From the low 60s where it had been for decades, and it peaked at 69.2% in 2005 or 6. And then, of course, the recession hit and it plummeted back to a more historical norm of around 63%.

This is controversial. I get some flack for saying this, but, hey, I get flack for saying a lot of things, so I'll take it. At least I know people are listening, even if they hate me. You know, I think the homeownership rate really should go down. I think the real homeownership rate, if you got all of these artificial factors out of the market, would be around 50% now. You know, there was a time when we all thought maybe Fannie Mae will go away. It didn't, you know, but that's a government subsidy for real estate, and it's not right. It's just like the student loan thing, and it inflates the prices artificially and does all kinds of things. And, you know, I just hate to see this tampering in the market. But look, it's not going away, okay? We're going to have tampering at least for the foreseeable future.

Absolutely.

So it just begs the question, what happens? I mean, people have to live somewhere. I don't think there's any big stigma against renting like there used to be. I mean, I own lots of property and I rent, and I love the flexibility. For the last few years of my life, I've wanted to move around and try living in some different states and cities. And, you know, if I had to sell my house each time and have all these strangers coming through and make the bed every day, it's a huge hassle. You know, the mobility factor of being a renter, people being able to go to where the jobs are, there's a lot of advantages. So that stigma seems to have gone away. Right, right. So, you know, it's like, no more, oh, are you an owner or a renter? That used to be the way it felt, you know, 15, 20 years ago and before. I just think we're moving toward A more renter oriented population.

Absolutely. I mean, I think there are three major demographic groups that are driving this shift. And I do agree, by the way, Germany, you know, it's. I don't know what it is right now, but it's historically been the 40 to 44% homeownership range. We become like that. I don't know if we'll ever get to 50 or 42.

I'm so glad you mentioned Germany. Look, I was born in Europe, okay? And I'll tell you, Germany is. Do you know they have such strong rent control in many places that people can literally will their rental apartment to their heirs? I mean, really? Yeah. Mind boggling. You know, at least in places like the Socialist Republic of San Francisco and New York. I think when you die, the landlord's allowed to go get rid of you and get a new renter.

Right? Wow.

Not in Germany, from what I understand. Again, I'm no expert. I just talked to some people and, and that's what they told me.

So, you know, that is amazing. Well, you know, you talk about this demographic shift and the fastest growing segment of renters is among the baby boomers. And statistics say, Jason, when people, when baby boomers rent, they never go back to owning a home again.

Isn't that wild? It is. Thirty years ago, I would have never thought this would happen this way. What do you attribute that to? Any, any particular thoughts?

I think it's a couple of things. So we heard from the Depression era, you know, our parents, the World War II generation, etcetera, that owning a home was the big deal. It was the way to build wealth. It was the American dream. It was all those things. I think we found out in the Great Recession that it wasn't true. It wasn't the American dream, It wasn't the greatest thing ever. People saw, you know, hundreds of thousands of their so called savings be gone in just a year or two around 2008. And so I think people realize, hey, this is not all it's cracked up to be. And also, you know, they're looking for, they've got more money and they've got the ability to downsize or the ability to go to rental homes or apartments in some cases and lower their maintenance and lower their hassles. And I think that they want more flexibility, they want the opportunity to travel. They've seen how hard their parents and others they saw before them work for something that like, you know, a lot of us have gone through our parents stuff and realized that a lifetime of stuff that they accumulated and homes, they accumulate and all that stuff. It's boiled down to a few boxes in a storage unit. And we realized, you know, I mean, a lot of us who are 50 or 60 have seen our parents die at 80 or 91 or two storage boxes. That's it. That's all they left. Of course, there's all kinds of other things, but anyway, so baby boomers are renting more than ever. The second group is millennials. Now, millennials are the in demographic U.S. history, about 80 million, 4 million larger.

Than the baby boomers. I mean.

Yeah, that's right.

It's a huge demographic. They've got all this student loan debt. They're very portable in their thinking. There's a portability thinking going on in society. And I, you know, certainly technology has enabled that. And then the sharing economy. Millennials just love the sharing economy. They're, you know, they don't even get driver's licenses anymore. Like, when I turned 16, that's the first thing I wanted to do is get a driver's license so I could take girls on dates. Right. In a car. What a cool thing. Millennials, they don't even care. They just take Lyft and Uber. You know, it's just a different world. It really is.

It's very true. So they're tied down to all the student debt. They've got huge credit card debt on average, although that may be changing. They don't see the point, Jason, getting tied down to a seemingly overpriced mortgage, a contract for 30 years, locking them into one suburb where they might get new friends, new opportunities, new job ideas across town or across the country next year. Why should they lock in and they're not.

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I've been saying, you know, you mirror a lot of the thoughts I've been saying for years, so. Very true, very true. Okay, so as landlords, I mean, look at. We've kind of pooh, poohed the idea of homeownership. And I think there's a lot of validity to that. You know, there's another trend. I mean, there are a few others, but one I think that's very significant that you did not mention is the trend away from marriage and household formation. And I think that's very significant because in the last three presidential elections, maybe the last four, but the last three, for sure, there is a voting bloc, a big demographic cohort that nobody even recognizes as a demographic cohort. Usually they say, well, women or men or minorities or whatever. Right. Or blue collar people or white collar people or, you know, whatever. Right. Those they would think of are people, you know, retired people that are members of the aarp. Well, you know, what that nobody considers to be a real cohort. Singles. We have the largest adult single population ever in history. And you could say it's the. Hey, I'll tell you folks read a book called Men on Strike. It's pretty interesting. I'm gonna get the author on my show. It's. It's scary actually. I think that's bad for society that this is happening. I don't endorse it. I think it's, you know, I think marriage is good. I think it's a good thing for society. But there are lots of, you know, there's been a war on marriage for decades now and it's working. They're winning. Okay. You know, the legal system and a bunch of other factors. And so it's more likely that people will rent when they're single than versus being married, right?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

And I agree. And I think another group is the immigration. You know, the immigrants are. Even though the trend is being fought against right now, immigrants are continuing to grow as a segment of American population. They typically rent more often and for longer than people born in the United States.

Uh huh. Yep. I agree. So all these factors, what do they mean to us as landlords? Well, they mean good news. They mean more customers because renters are our customers. Is there more to it than that?

So I think that every 1% drop in the homeownership rate has meant a million new renters in the renter pool. And I think that what the problem this has caused, if I can go in a little quick, little bit different direction, is I think your listeners would agree it's very, very hard to find single family rental homes and duplexes and multifamily right now. And it's caused a potential oversupply of investors and a potential that people might be willing to overpay for a home and bank on appreciation. And, you know, anybody who was around as you were in the Great Recession knows that if you just bank on appreciation, you are in trouble. You could get burned. Yeah.

You know, of my ten Commandments, successful investing commandment number five is thou shalt not gamble. In other words, the property must make sense the day you buy it or you don't buy it. And how do you know if it makes sense? Well, the major factor is cash flow. Cash flow is the major factor to know if a property makes sense or not so. Yeah, good stuff, good stuff. Well, so, you know, a lot of these people think they're investors, but they're really speculators, right?

Absolutely. You know, Paul Samuelson, the first US Nobel Prize winner in economics, said investing should be more like watching paint dry or watching grass grow. If you want excitement, take $800 and go to Las Vegas. A lot of the folks who are saying they're investors, and I've been saying I was an investor since the late 90s, but I was really speculating a lot of times and I tell a lot of these stories on my how to Lose Money podcast. I think investing is when your principal is generally safe and you have a chance to make a return. But speculating is when your principal is completely at risk and you have a chance to make a return. And a lot of times when I said I was investing, I was really speculating and I have the losses to prove it. Jason.

Yep, yep, there you go. Hey, I got a few losses to prove those too, with speculating. When I thought of myself as an investor many, many years ago. So definitely not a good place to be. What other investment philosophies do you want people to know?

I think that there is a long standing principle of risk versus return. And you can picture a graph where on the X and Y axis, you've got risk, you've got return, low risk, low return. And that's generally true investing in T bills or investing in money market, etc. And then we see at the other end of the spectrum, you know, this 45 degree angle, high risk, high return. And we have that in our minds. Jason, you probably don't, but a lot of people do. And you know, the truth is it's not true. It's high risk, high potential return, but it can also be high potential loss, including the loss of all your principal and that difference, you know, that high risk, high return concept. If people could get in their minds that it's not really true, that they would begin to realize sometimes when they think they're investing, they're really speculating. Or even gambling, of course, gambling has a negative expected return. But it seems so much fun. You know, a lot of people, a lot of angel investors realize that, what is it, 8 out of 10, I guess their investments, they expect to lose money. That sounds fun. And those stories are told on blogs and those stories are told, you know, in bars, at the corner, in your town, in my town. But those stories aren't sustainable for the vast majority of investors. You know, I think it's 93% of people that speculate in the stock market lose money. Yet the stock market we saw today, the day of this recording, the S and P hit an all time high. But 93% of people who are day trading or trading, you know, in and out for profit are losing money. It's not a sustainable strategy for most people.

It's definitely not sustainable. And go back to the comment about watching paint dry. I couldn't agree more. You know, one of the things that I think makes the stock market and other investments like that so attractive to people is that it's like the studies they've done on social media. You know, it's a dopamine hit and it's like pulling the slot machine. And, you know, we're all animals and we're all human and we're all susceptible to the same types of follies and manipulations and persuasions. And investing is just a long term process of creating value over time. If you've got to pay a lot of attention to something, it's probably not an investment. It's either a business or a speculation, you know, one or the other if you're, if you're trading all the time. So, yeah, don't, don't be a traitor. I agree.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. What else?

Another thing that I like to chat about is, you know, it's a lot easier in a lot of cases. I could, you know, you could find a way to disprove this. I think it's a lot easier to look at people's mistakes and learn from those and learn not to replicate the mistakes that it is sometimes to replicate their success. I heard about a guy who was sitting in an airport. He struck up a conversation with another passenger who was getting on a plane, and a month or two later, that passenger sent him a million dollars to fund his new startup. And they both made hundreds of millions of dollars. They did very well.

That was a pretty good plane ticket.

Yeah, no kidding. You know, so I hear a story like that, perhaps on something like NPR's, you know, how I built this podcast, and I'm applauding and I'm excited. What am I supposed to do with that, Jason? Am I supposed to go sit at an airport and wait for a millionaire? I don't know how to fix that, but if I hear that guy tell the story of his failure, his mistakes, how he blew it, I'm much more able to go, okay, I know what.

It's something you can use. You know, it's a usable thing. It's a usable thing. To learn. Yeah. That's why I try to share my ups and downs with my listeners. I think sometimes I bore them with it, but. Well, yeah, you know, yeah, it's definitely not all ups, you know, you, you definitely are going to feel the bumps in the road. You're definitely going to have problems, you're going to have evictions, you're going to deal with bad people, you're going to deal with property managers that are bad, you're going to deal with tenants that are bad, you're going to deal with repair people that are bad. But when the investment is so powerful because it's a multi dimensional asset class, you know, it can overcome a lot of those things just because of the nature of the asset class and the fact that it has universal need. Everybody needs housing, right?

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've been doing is because multifamily or rental housing is so overcrowded right now, I've been turning to self storage to look for opportunities there. But I told somebody yesterday, you know, I think 100 years from now, these rental apartments that we're buying or single family rentals people are buying are still going to be there, they're still going to be rented out, they're still going to be essentially similar to where they are now. Warren Buffett said, I don't invest in the Internet because the Internet will never change the way people chew gum. And I don't think the way people live is going to be different essentially 100 years from now. Self storage, I'm not sure. It may be completely different. They may be completely automated, might be on conveyor belts or whatever.

It might not exist because we might not be needed. You know, it might not be needed. It's just a different thing. The self storage thing is hard. You know, that's a whole different concept. Predicting that and understanding that, that's a completely different business. You know, those self storage facilities are like erector sets, you know, they can go up really fast and so a competitor can come into your market really quickly and entice people away with a, you know, with a free moving truck they can borrow and, you know, free first month's rent or whatever. But I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's different. But housing is a very sure bet. A very sure bet. And you know, I was recently reminded of this. I mean, I'm reminded of it all the time. But I was with one of our actual clients who is a friend of mine, and we took a trip Together. And she and I went up the California coast. And it's great not to live in California, but to still enjoy it. And I don't have to pay taxes there. But, you know, to go and enjoy. To go back to where I grew up, right in LA and Orange county and stuff. And, you know, it's like, all the same. We went by a couple of my old houses, and they're all still there, and they're all still producing money for somebody. They're all still producing income. You know, I lived in this apartment. I lived in that apartment as a kid. You know, that was where we went to lunch close to my school. And, you know, that restaurant's still there and the real estate owner still owns that. And it's producing income for the owner of the property. It's just an incredibly durable asset class. You know, 40, 50, 100 or hundreds of years later, you go to Europe. And I remember once I stayed in the oldest hotel in Paris. I think it was like 900 years old. It wasn't very nice. This was years ago. That property is still producing income for somebody throughout the generation.

It is absolutely true. And I think that. And that's a lot what we can learn from people like Warren Buffet, he's buying and he's not predicting on the latest technology or something that can be swept away. As great as Amazon and Google and Facebook are, we have all seen how they've been overcome. Companies like that are gone. You know, people looked at MySpace 15 years ago and thought, that is the thing. Well, where is it now?

Exactly. Exactly now. Very good point. Very good point. Everybody can get the book. It's on Amazon and all the usual places. Got great reviews. It's entitled the Perfect Investment. And Paul, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks, Jason. It's been great. It was an honor to be on your show.

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