2082 FBF: Bradley Birkenfeld - LUCIFER'S BANKER, How An American Banker Caused the Collapse of the Multi-Trillion Dollar Swiss Money Laundering Industry

Welcome to this week's edition of Flashback Friday. Your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has hand picked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy. This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit hartmanmedia.com. Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slang on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors. Welcome to the Creating wealth show, episode number 806806. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm your host, Jason Hartman. Of course. And today we're talking about Lucifer. Yes, Lucifer, a bad dude. We're talking about Lucifer's banker. Our guest today will be Bradley Birkenfeld and he is the most significant whistleblower of all time, exposing these crooked banksters. You know, it's not easy to expose the powers that be. Even the powers that sort of half be can be pretty tough opponents. And you're going to hear about that in this story as he talks about UBS and you know, his, his whole adventure there of exposing the Swiss banking money laundering industry, a huge industry. And so you'll hear about that in just a moment. So we'll talk about that. But, you know, first I want to just tell you that I am really excited, I'm very excited about our upcoming Memphis property tour. It's in less than two weeks. This is the third, I believe the. Yeah, the third tour we've done in Memphis. It's one of those cities that just makes such a fantastic rental market. You know, I'm actually more excited not for the tour per se, but there's two components to these. There is the seminar. I'm really excited to do my Creating wealth seminar. And you know, I need to do this one more often. This is my favorite seminar, the one I have been doing the longest, the first one being way back in 2004. Yes. That was 13 years ago as people stood out the door of our old office in Newport Beach, California and lined up out the door as we were in this crazy real estate market. And you know, these cycles, they always come and they go and I've been in many cycles in my life, my career in real estate, my very long career in real estate. You know, it's. It's just interesting. It gives you so much perspective when you're new in this business. You just don't get it. And I know you parents or anybody who's got some life experience, you try to talk to someone younger and you try to explain to them what this is all about, what that's all about, what, what business is about, what relationships are about, what politics are about, and you know, they'll sort of nod their head and I don't know, there's different levels of getting it in life, right? There sure are. And so anyway, you know, it's just great to have that perspective of going through so many cycles as I have been in the real estate market. And you just gain this kind of. It's sort of this native deep understanding. I just don't know how to explain it. And, and I know probably the people that understand this the most are parents who are talking to their children and trying to save them the trials and tribulations of life and explain things to them to make their life easier. And boy, you know, it doesn't always transl. Does it? Yeah, it doesn't always translate. I will try to impart my long deep knowledge of real estate cycles and real estate investing to you when I see you in Memphis. We will be doing that Saturday morning. What is that? April 1st? Yeah, I think it's April 1st. Right. But it won't be an April Fool's Day. And then we will be doing it again Sunday morning and of course Saturday afternoon we'll be on the bus. We'll be looking at properties. We've got a lot of new construction on this tour, so if you are a fan of new construction, be sure to get there. We are just about sold out. I probably should shut up and stop talking about it because some of you listening to this literally will not be able to get tickets. We've only got a very small number of tickets left. Our local market specialist there was talking about getting a chaser van. The bus holds, get this, I think the bus holds 56 people. And we don't want to completely fill the bus because we need room for the cooler with the cold drinks and a Couple of extra seats, you know, just so it won't be totally crammed. So we want to make sure it's comfortable. You do have a beautiful class A motor coach. I saw a picture of it they sent to me the other day. So that's exciting. We will be touring in luxury. When you go and register@jason hartman.com the autoresponder will email you back the hotel information and we'll get you all set up for that. So last chance pretty much on the Memphis Creating Wealth Seminar and Property tour. I'm really excited about that. And I'm excited about today's guest. Again, not totally on the real estate topic per se, just on the broader financial topic, but interesting nonetheless. And I know all of you listeners are multidimensional people, so you want to talk about multi dimensional things now. Some interesting stuff going on, of course, as always in the market. I just thought before we got to our guest I'd share this interesting quick article with you. And again, this might be counterintuitive, right? And why might it be counterintuitive? Because you might think that you want to invest in properties in the places where people have good credit and they have high credit scores and avoid places with low credit scores. Well, actually not at all. That's counterintuitive. As landlords we, we need to be willing to accept non class A people if we want to get class A returns. And what I mean there is that in, in high end markets where people have super high credit scores of 720 and 740, those aren't the markets that make the greatest renters. Obviously not because they have terrible rent to value ratios. Those people go and buy properties, they push up prices to where they don't make sense at all. So I'll just share this interesting article, a survey by WalletHub. And by the way, we had WalletHub on a prior episode. I can't remember which one, but I know we talked to those people about some of their research. I'll just share a little, a little bit of this article with you because it's kind of interesting about us cities with the highest and the lowest credit scores. So Here you go. WalletHub calls your credit score a numerical representation of your financial habits. Welcome to this week's edition of Flashback Friday. Your opportunity to get some good review by listening to episodes from the past that Jason has handpicked to help you today in the present and propel you into the future. Enjoy. And I'd also say your organizational abilities and your choices because sometimes people make choices that affect their credit score actually very proactively. And we saw millions of people do do that during the mortgage meltdown and the following Great Recession several years ago. To figure out what US Residents had the best habits, the site looked at the average credit scores of more than 2500. That's a big survey. US cities, residences, residents in the villages of Florida did. The best was with an average score of. Get this, this is phenomenal. Average credit score of 778. Whoa. On the other end of the spectrum, it was the folks in Camden, New Jersey, not so good. Their average credit score was only 566. That's pretty bad. Okay, and now here are the five highest and lowest U.S. cities. Okay, so check this out. And this probably isn't going to surprise anybody listening to too much because you guys, you listeners, you investors, you know what's going on in the world. Okay, number one. Well, nah, I'm gonna do it kind of the way Jay Leno does it. We'll go bottom up. Okay, number five. Drumroll, please. Boston. Boston, Massachusetts. Terrible place to invest. Nothing makes any sense in Boston. Number four, San Jose. Number three, Seattle. Number two, Honolulu. And number one, that Tech City. Very high priced real estate. You know what I'm gonna say? San Francisco. All right, the lowest credit scores in the country from the bottom up. Number five. You know, just entering the list of the lowest credit scores, Baltimore. Number four, Milwaukee. Number three, Cleveland. Cleveland's pretty good place to invest. Number two. I was just talking about number two, Memphis. Yes, our local market specialists like to say that Memphis is the greatest city to be a landlord. Now, they're a little biased. Obviously they're being biased. They say Memphis is the greatest city to be a landlord because Everybody works at FedEx, has a low credit score and makes 40 grand a year. That's the way they stereotype it. Obviously not completely accurate, but it's a stereotype. So number two was Memphis. Number one, Detroit. Lowest credit scores in the country. So there you go. Thought you would think that's interesting. And. Yeah, well, that's. That's interesting. Okay, let's move on. Let's talk about the Swiss money laundering industry. And on our next episode on Wednesday, we will dive deep into some real estate specific, practical and tactical investing techniques. So here is our guest. It's my pleasure to welcome Bradley Birkenfeld to the show. He is the most significant whistleblower of all time. He's a former banker for UBS and he's author of Lucifer's Banker. How an American banker caused the collapse of the multi trillion dollar Swiss money laundering industry. Brad, welcome. How are you?

Well, I'm wonderful, Jason, thank you for having me on your program.

It's great to have you. This is a fascinating topic. You've got a fascinating book and you are just to give our listeners a sense of geography, when you were at ubs, you were working where I was.

Working at a Switzerland, on the US desk there in Switzerland.

Okay. And now you're in, I believe, southern Italy, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm in Italy at the moment, yes.

Fantastic. Okay, good. Well, let's dive into this scandal and give us maybe just sort of a chronological overview of what went on and when it all happened, if you would.

Well, that, that'd be great. And I think for your audience, it's important to understand that Swiss bank secrecy is legal in the country by a law that was passed in 1934. What had happened? Just to go back in history, it's important to understand that the beginning of all of this is that when the Third Reich, the Nazis came to power, they said that anyone who moved money out of the country would be killed. So the Swiss countered that with something called Article 47, which meant anybody who banked in their country, they would never disclose their identity. So for years that worked as a very nice system, such as attorney client privilege, medical privilege, and this was financial privilege. It made sense. But unfortunately, as time went on and the world became a global trading partners with all these different countries, people used Switzerland as a haven to hide their money. It was politically stable, it was economically stable, and numbered accounts were the standard for nefarious acts. I started with UBS in 2001 and I worked there from 2001 to 2006. And when I was there, I then saw some things that actually caused alarm. And I was a director of the bank and I thought it was important to report that to my superiors. There was a three page Internet document which is in my book, Lucifer's Banker. And that document was hidden in our Internet, which pretty much contradicted everything we were doing. So this was something which was really protecting the bank, but not protecting the colleagues, the clients or the shareholders. So when I brought that to the attentive management, they shunned me. And I went to the head of legal department, the head of the compliance department. I documented it for months. They did nothing. They never responded. And I was forced to resign because I felt as though that they were doing criminal activities and they were not responding to a director at the bank who brought it to their attention.

Bradley, are you saying, are you saying that a bank would actually engage in criminal activities?

No joke.

I'm being sarcastic. Go ahead.

Well, we all know the Swiss always claimed to be so innocent, Jason, and what had happened. We can go back in time and look at the Holocaust issue and all these different issues with the Swiss banks where they were hiding money and not giving it to their heirs and, and women that were divorced from their husbands were trying to find out information and they did not share information or with tax authorities and so on and so forth. So it's really quite an amazing story. And then after UBS wouldn't do anything about it, I resigned. And then I blew the whistle under their whistleblowing policies internally and I sent it to the board of directors at the bank and they called for an investigation, which they immediately buried. And I knew this was a cover up. So I then went to my own government, the US Government, and I thought that they would be welcoming me, but unfortunately the Department of Justice actually turned on me and they were bitter and hostile. So I knew at that point I had to go to the securities and Exchange Commission, the Internal Revenue Service in the United States Senate, which I did. And it's all documented and you can see it on my website, lucifersbanker.com and you'll see the fact that one single man, Brad Birkenfeld, exposed the largest and longest running tax fraud in history.

Wow, that's just amazing. Let me, let me, let me get a couple rapid fire questions in. That'll just, I think, solve some good things for the listeners, if I can. And then please remember where you want to go on. First of all, why would UBS want to cover this up? Why would they shun you? Why would the government do the doj, the Department of Justice in the US do that too? I mean, it's just UBS was probably profiting from it, I guess. Right, but why the Department of Justice? I mean, were they just in bed with a, you know, the world's biggest bank?

Well, this is the problem. And if you look at the administration in the United States as an example, the Vice chairman of the bank was Phil Graham, and he's a Republican, and the chairman of the bank was Robert Walter Wolf, a Democrat. So you would ask yourself, geez, that seems a little bit odd. Why would you hire the former chairman of the Senate Banking Finance Committee to be the Vice chairman? And his wife, by the way, was on the audit committee of Enron. So there's some dirty laundry there.

God, you can't make this stuff up.

It's all there. And then Robert Wolfe, who was the chairman of the bank with Phil Graham in America, he was the largest single contributor to Obama's campaign for president. And this is what's very troubling, because then Barack Obama was taking millions of dollars in bundled campaign contributions from ubs. But at the very same time, I went to the U.S. senate and they had investigations. He was an acting member of the US Senate committee as a senator, but he never showed up for one of the hearings. But at the same time that they were investigating UBS for their criminal conduct, he was accepting millions of dollars from the bank. I mean, he should have been impeached for this. Quite frankly, it's treason. It's economic treason, in my opinion.

Not just impeached, imprisoned as well as.

Imprisoned because he had. He took an oath to the US Constitution to defend the US Constitution, and he failed. And he betrayed the American people. And he took all these monies then, then he took Robert Wolf, the chairman of UBS and Americas, and put him on two of his committees. He played golf with him, he invited him to the White House, and so on and so forth. This is not even a conflict of interest. This is beyond a conflict. And not one media outlet ever really touched upon it. A few slightly touched upon it, but if you go back and look at the facts, people will begin to say this was absolutely criminal. So not only do you have big business in bed with big government, but the problem is the Department of Justice is a political tool. And these folks hate whistleblowers, number one, because it makes them look foolish. Why didn't they uncover the largest tax fraud? Why did it take a courageous individual to come forward and bring it to their attention and then force them to do something about it? The other problem is that then these DOJ prosecutors go into private practice, as they did in my case, and then they defended people they should have prosecuted. Once again, another conflict of interest. And the American government cannot be trusted.

Well, I am not surprised, sadly. I am sadly not surprised. So give us the kind of. The broad stroke here of what was going on. You know, we hear the words money laundering, laundering bandied about all the time. What exactly is money laundering? And who was doing it here? Who do you blow the whistle on? Well, I mean, the bank was helping people do it, but. But who. Who were the customers doing it? Were they drug dealers? Were they. You know, who were they?

Well, what I exposed just on the US desk alone was 19,000Americans with $20 billion in assets in undeclared accounts, numbered accounts. So think about that for a moment. Those are some cities across America that are 19,000 people. But these are the rich of the rich. The minimum account size was a million dollars. And some went up to 50 million, 100 million. And you begin to realize that these folks were CEOs, some politicians that we've never heard about. And the problem is that they buried this through amnesty programs. The IRS major, they covered this up so they would never expose the names of these clients. So what has happened here is in my book, there's one particular client, the largest account in Geneva, the Iraqi national who lived in a $50 million condo in New York City. His name was Abdulaziz Abbas and he had $420 million in six Swiss secret numbered accounts. And you can see those in my book, Lucifer's Banker. It's actually in there. And I gave that as Exhibit 1 to the Department of Justice back in June of 2007. They did nothing, absolutely nothing.

Okay, but, but I don't think you said what he was, he was doing or what, what money laundering was happening. I mean, like, what is money laundering? You know, just to give a sentence on that, you know, what were they doing?

Well, this gentleman in particular, just to touch upon him was he was making illegal oil sales with Saddam Hussein, okay? And that's very serious because he violated the UN embargo against Iraq at the time. But money laundering in essence is taking monies that are ill gotten gains in whatever business you're in and then putting them into the banking system and then using them to your own means, meaning maybe making investments in stocks or bonds or real estate or what have you. And you're laundering that money because you're taking it from an illegal business and then trying to make it legal. And that's really, really dangerous. You also have other nefarious acts such as insider trading, bribery, extortion, drugs, guns, prostitution and so forth. And the problem is with secret numbered Swiss accounts is if you have no accountability and no transparency, you don't know what's going on.

Yeah, right. Okay, so how did this interplay with the broader financial crisis? I mean, this is right about that same time frame. You know, just link those two together for us if you would.

Well, the problem is, is that the majority of the major banks in the world were a part of this mortgage meltdown, if you will, the auction rate securities and so on and so forth. And most of these banks were bailed out by their governments or even the US Government, which they did across the board, because they claimed that if they let one of these banks fail, the whole system would fall apart. Well, don't you think that they're responsible from the first place to let them get that big and to be so reckless in their investments and, and then somehow the taxpayer has to bail them out. So really what you have is you have this secret Swiss bank accounts where the rich of the rich in America are hiding their money. And at the same time the same bank, UBS in this instance was actually invested in all these toxic investments in the states and taking tremendous risks with their balance sheet. So again, the taxpayer pays, the bankers walk away with their bonuses and the Federal Reserve bails them out.

What a deal. Corporate socialism really just, just, it's just disgusting. It really is. Okay, so you discovered that this money laundering activity was going on. You went to your bank, they were hostile. You went to the Department of Justice in the us they were hostile. And, and you were telling us who else you went to. You went to the irs, you went to, I can't remember what agency. But what happened after that?

Well, what had happened was because I worked in Switzerland and lived in Switzerland, if you give up client names, you will be breaking their law. And that was the law of the land where I resided. So all I asked the Department of Justice for was a subpoena or immunity. And they refused both. They said, we're not going to give it to you. I said, well I can't give you names then. So I went to the U.S. senate. They were happy to give me a subpoena. Within a week they gave me a subpoena which upset the DOJ tremendously because they couldn't control the investigation and take credit for it. So the US Senate, as you can see on my website, lucifersbanker.com and in my book that they had three hearings and they produced three massive reports of about 350 pages, all thanks to me, my documentation, my testimony and all of this information was out there. So then the Senate held these hearings and exposed UBS and the DOJ was furious. And what they tried to do was make me the scapegoat and let all of my bosses walk away with secret non prosecution agreements. And they tried to say I was the bad guy.

Unbelievable. Yeah. Thank God we have different branches of government in the U.S. right? At least. At least.

Exactly correct. And that was, that was why I did that. Because I knew I couldn't trust the DOJ because they were a part of the problem. As we always say, you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. They are the problem. The Department of Justice is not only corrupt, but they covered it up. And the fact of the matter is, how is it that we've not seen indictments of all these rich millionaires and billionaires. They just let them walk away because they then went in to work for law firms that represented these people who are paying them thousands and millions in fees.

That's pathetic. That's just unbelievable that, that, that happens that way. You know, you start out your career with some low paying government job working at the DOJ or whatever, right? Or the sec, and then you get hired away by the companies you're supposed to be investigating. And you know, that's just such an obvious conflict of interest. It's just, it's pathetic. It's unbelievable that this kind of stuff can happen. Crazy, crazy stuff.

And it goes a step further because what happens is your listeners who pay their taxes, who work hard every day to make a living, they get screwed by the system. And these people think because they have all this power and they have immunity from prosecution, the doj, prosecutors, there's nothing you can do and there's no oversight. And the politicians don't do anything because they're in bed with them as well. So the whole system is a toxic sewer of corruption. And I can tell you the problem here is this is what we know about because as a whistleblower, I exposed it. But how many other cases do we not hear about because these folks are so corrupt?

I am sure there are many, many other cases. Let me ask you. You know, the Swiss, Switzerland has been famous for its numbered anonymous bank accounts for many years. They were always the, you know, the big player in that world. But there are many other countries and really jurisdictions, for example, not even countries, just sort of jurisdictions like, you know, Jersey comes to mind. Right. And these others that offer all sorts of banking secrecy opportunities for, for people, some, you know, just want privacy, but many are doing bad things. I'm sure it's a mixture of both. You know, why isn't the government able to. Well, the US Government, I mean, the US Government, the Obama administration, I guess to its credit, you know, there's probably more to the story than that. And I'm not quick to give Obama credit for much of anything, but, but they really crack down on this stuff. And from the public view, from what I could see, it seems like the Obama administration really kind of ruined this for Americans at least to be able to do, you know, all this Swiss banking. But there are other jurisdictions I mean, people can move their money to all kinds of places around the world and have privacy, right?

Well, the problem. Yes, that's correct. But the problem is this is the Obama administration was a facade. They had to do something because I exposed it across so many departments with the government. As I said, the IRS, the SEC, the DOJ, the U.S. senate, they had no choice but to do something. I actually checkmated them. And by doing that, it forced them.

Had they not done something, it would have looked so bad. Right.

Well, that's it. And they tried to do everything they could to cover it up with amnesty programs. And they sent two Guantanamo detainees from Cuba to Switzerland to settle the case. And if your readers and your audience goes onto my website and goes under the UBS scandal and looks at the Hillary Clinton CIA memo, you'll see that it was a political solution. And that email was exposed by WikiLeaks. And this is so powerful, it proves there was a political fix to this. And the American people got screwed by the Obama administration.

Wow. Yeah. So what haven't I asked you that people should know about this?

Well, what has happened here is this, as you rightly point out, there were other jurisdictions as well. But you have to understand that, sure, there was Gibraltar in Luxembourg and Monaco and Panama and so forth. But the problem here is that who represents the US Interests in Cuba, Libya, and Iran? The Swiss do. So the US Is in bed with the Swiss. And if you indict ubs, you in effect, indict the Swiss government, which would never happen. And all you have to do is look at the deal that Obama made with Iran, sending $1.4 billion in cash. And it was sent there by a private jet from Geneva. Now, does the US Government have bank accounts in Geneva? Why is this happening? Why is the American people taking this? And this is where Barack Obama is guilty. Now, I can tell you, the CIA publicly had these accounts in Geneva. They were laundering money from the drug trade. Because there's no oversight, Jason. Nothing. There's no accountability. So they can just run roughshod on anyone in Geneva. Just to give your audience an idea, Geneva was about 200,000 residents, and there was 140 banks at the time I worked there. 140. So think about that. How many are there now? Well, there's about 80 now because of what I had done. But think of it this way. That means it's per capita. That's 1500 people per bank. And it's not Swiss money in those banks. And this is what's so troubling now, if the Obama administration was serious about doing something, we could have eradicated the problem in Africa, in Asia, with bribery and extortion and dictators. They all had their money in Switzerland. It was all there. But they were too cozy with the Swiss. The US Government and the Swiss government are in bed together. They represent them in those countries. I mentioned Tehran, in Libya and Cuba. I think this is ridiculous. So we feel as though that we have to make these little secret side deals. Now. Of course they're going to say it's national security or something like this. No, this is a criminal organization operating worldwide and publicly listed on stock exchanges around the world. UBS is a criminal organization.

Wow. And how much do they pay in terms of fines for this?

Look, we made 200 million a year on the US desk. And just for the eight year period. That's 1.6 billion just for an eight year period. But they only fined them $780 million. And 200 million of that went to the SEC. So really effectively, they fined them 580 million. But yet where's the other billion just for the eight year period, Jason? So again, 300 million Americans got screwed by this deal and UBS was happy. They paid it. They write it off on their taxes. So the Swiss taxpayers have to bear that burden and the legal fees to. To represent them. It was around 55 million. The UBS shareholders pay it and the bankers walk away.

Mm. Wow. This is just. This is pathetic. Is there anything we can do about these kinds of things? You know, it seems like we have laws against everything there. There's just a law for everything. We're all committing. As you know, one of my guests, the title of his book, Three Felonies a Day. Right? And we don't even know we're doing it because, you know, ignorance of the law being no excuse is impossible today with so many laws. But the problem is it's total selective enforcement. If you're too big to fail, if you've got access, you know, you can get away with murder, quite literally. Is there anything we can do about this stuff other than talk about it, expose it?

Well, you know, the problem is the government is so massive, and the problem is we have two large parties, Democrats and Republicans. And unfortunately, they're part of the problem as well. They don't want to see change. And this is so ingrained because if this ever got exposed again, 19,000Americans, Americans, millionaires. Not just millionaires in Switzerland, but millionaires in America. So who wants to expose the riches of the rich, the powerful Judges, the senators, the CEOs. It just, it's not going to happen. And I did my best to do what I did, but they continued to cover it up. That's why I wrote my book Lucifer's Banker and why I set up my website so your audience could really understand the facts, not the spin of the government, not the lies they keep telling us. No, this must be told so people understand exactly what happened. And that's what I did.

Yeah. Well, amazing. Talk to us for a moment, if you would, about Hillary Clinton's involvement. I mean, she was, she was pretty involved in this and I guess it wasn't even her. Her role to be involved. Right.

Hillary Clinton as a Secretary of State should never have been involved in an international criminal investigation in the UBS matter. What she did was she got involved and under the guise of President Obama to settle this case politically. And if you go onto my website, lucifersbanker.com under UBS scandal, you'll see the CIA cable that was released by WikiLeaks. Thank goodness. That shows that she made a political settlement with the Swiss by sending two Guantanamo detainees to Switzerland and made this political settlement. This is not only treason, this is ripping off 300 million Americans. And we sit here and take it as though it's normal. It's not normal and it's criminal.

Yeah, that's just what we've sort of come to expect, haven't we? Unfortunately, give out your website and tell people where they can find out more about your important work.

Well, the website is lucifersbanker.com and, and you can buy the book there. Either the hardback book through Amazon, Barnes and Noble or the E book through Kindle and Nook and so forth. And I think your audience should really look at this seriously. Not only just individual readers, but also universities, law schools and business schools alike, because this gives a real insight into a story that will never be told again. I was the first Swiss private banker to come and expose and destroy Swiss bank secrecy. This is monumental. And it's not just in the us, it's in many other countries around the world. And I've helped foreign governments help retrieve these billions of dollars back to their tax authorities because of the Swiss doing this nefarious business for decades.

Yeah, you know, I gotta say, Bradley, the book is fairly new and it's got 85 reviews already. Four and a half stars. Number one in the white collar crime category, number number one bestseller in financial services, number one bestseller in banks and banking. So you're definitely getting the message out there and readers I would encourage you or listeners I would encourage you to check this out. It's really, really interesting. And Bradley, thank you so much for joining us today.

Well Jason, thank you and God bless to your audience.

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