2192: Beyond the Property Manager: Empowering Yourself as a Landlord

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Welcome to episode 2192 and greetings from beautiful Croatia where I've been talking to you from the last few episodes. Actually, today we're going to do something really special. We're going to give you some free content that is normally only accessible to our empowered investor pro members. And that is such an important topic we've been wanting to teach you and we have been teaching you for man, maybe 12, 14 years now about self management. And this takes a deep dive into it. So I think you're really going to like that. That'll be the main part of our show tonight. But first, since I am on the super yacht that I chartered and invited a bunch of great friends and experts for a mastermind, I have got one here that is going to answer the question and we're going to do a full episode with him and a lot of content with him later. But I just wanted to introduce him because he's one of our attendees here and he brings to bear an expertise that a lot of you ask me about literally many times a week. And that is becoming a global citizen. And there really may be four major pillars to that. One is second citizenship, second passports. The other is visas and residency programs. The other would be offshore asset protection. And then the fourth pillar might be tax savings, tax avoidance, tax planning. So I want to introduce to you Matthew Sumner, who is an expert on becoming that Global citizen. And Matthew, you can have a glass of wine in your hand.

I do.

We've got about 25 people here at the Mastermind with us on the super yacht this week, and we are just on our way to dinner in a few minutes. But just wanted to talk with you for a moment about this world that is really like this cottage industry that not too many people talk about. So, Matthew, it's great to have you here and you've been a real asset to the group in talking about all kinds of great stuff. Tell us a little bit about what you do and about your, your industry.

Sure. Thanks, Jason. So the first thing, and the reason why I believe this is so important, considering your options for second citizenship, residency, etc. Is just like in your investments, you wouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. Right. Because that puts you up for a lot of risk if there's a major decline. So we look at citizenship and residency in the same, in the same way. If you have all of your eggs in one basket, if you only have one passport, one residency, then basically that country has a monopoly on you.

Right. And whatever comes a good way to look at it.

Yeah.

The country has a monopoly on you.

Yes. And your money. Because, you know, with a flip of a switch, they can change the laws, they can impose new taxes, wealth taxes, all sorts of different stuff. And even in the case, for example, during COVID which I think Americans saw for the first time, your global mobility went from around 160 countries, visa free entry down to 78, the same level as a Cambodian passport.

If you're an American.

If you're an American, you've got a global audience. Global audience. Okay. So you wouldn't want to give anyone a monopoly on you in terms of, you know, your, your earnings, etc. And one of the best ways to plan for that, either if you have ancestors who are European or of another nationality, or you want to go the fast route, citizenship, you know, by investment. And of course, there's a few other variations of this, but one of the first core tenets of becoming a global citizen is to make sure that you have your global mobility planned. Having residencies, having multiple citizenships.

Yeah.

And you're doing that yourself extremely well. I mean, you are really following your own advice because you currently live in Milan with your girlfriend who's Italian, and you got her set up in Portugal because it's got better tax treatment. You met her in China. Okay. So, I mean, and you know, I've had Doug Casey on the show many times. As you know, if you've been following my work for any length of time. And Doug Casey talks about being the international man, right, and planting your flag in multiple jurisdictions. I don't know if he calls it the six flag formula or the flag theory. Flag theory, yeah. Tell us what that is.

Yeah. So the basic concept behind flag theory is that you can live in one place, hold a passport from another place, put your, maybe your liquid assets in one place, your, your hard assets or your movable property in another place. And the reason that that's important is because there's a lot of preferential treatment as long as you're not earning money and living in the same country or holding your assets and your job and everything in one country. And so the flag theory basically gives you a lot of flexibility. It makes governments much more difficult to pin you down, tax you, you know, abscond with your assets, whether it's bank accounts or real estate or whatever. And so the idea is you just, you know, you diversify, you know, your, your life and your assets across multiple flags to give you the best flexibility and optionality, which is important, which is.

An absolutely great thing. And I love how you say having a monopoly on you. You know, this is about your sovereignty. And that's what we talk a lot about on the show, is not being dependent on, you know, the system, where we talk about beating the system and using inflation to your advantage, for example. So there's just a lot of opportunities for. But you know, Matt, who is this for? People listening might be thinking, gosh, you know, this is for like billionaires, this is for James Bond, you know, this is, this is not for me. At what point, you know, like, what kind of net worth are you talking about to where people need to start thinking about any of these, you know, sort of four pillars or, or maybe there's one or two of the pillars that I described at the beginning y that you think about it, one level of net worth and maybe pillar three and four come in later.

Yeah, absolutely. So even just for people who maybe have an annual six figure income, you can start taking advantage of some of the opportunities that exist either on the tax side or the residency planning. And then as you go up in net worth, then those are compounding benefits that you can get by implementing more strategies. And of course it has a cost, but let's say six figures and up, it's worth starting to think about. Even if you just think about the destruction of wealth, if you're paying taxes of 30, 40, 50% in some countries, you're losing half of your money before it even comes to you. And there's ways to even plan, you know, even on a relatively, you know, upper middle class income of six figures, you know, single digit six figures.

Excellent, excellent, good stuff. So look Matt, there is so much to what you do and you know, you organize conferences for this industry all over the world, but it's really incredible, it's been incredible to get to know you on this trip and about a month ago beforehand as well when we met in Milan. So we will do more on this folks, I promise you. We've done a little bit on it over the years, but we'll definitely take a deep dive into it. Today though, we're going to talk about self management and share with you some good free content. You know, that is part of our membership program. So you really should join Empowered Investor Pro. Go to empoweredinvestor.com to learn more about that. But today you're going to get some of that for free. So here we go.

Thanks for joining everybody. First of all, I want to start off with none other than Carrie, who's got a good story to tell you about how she converted to self management for one of her own properties. Carrie, you want to start off by sharing that?

Yeah, sure. So yeah, I went through the wonderful phase of having a property manager and yeah, so far, I mean I did the turn all through using him Lane, they're really helpful getting me up and running. I use them for the turn, the move in, the move out. I hired contractors. I even, you know, denied some and I went and I did Jason's mom's strategy and I went to the sixth page of Google and my own key master and re keyed the property all in all through the whole turn and getting the property occupied. I mean it, it took maybe a week to get the property attendant placed and I increased the rent doll from what my previous property manager had it. So I probably saved $2,000 on the turn on the turn costs and the lease up costs because you know your property Manager, they took 75% of your first month's rent and handling took $600. So I saved.

How much is the rent on that property, Carrie?

1600.

Okay, so that's significant savings.

Yeah, yeah. So that alone just made sense for me. So yep. So everything was cleared and my tenant has been in there. I gave her 10 days to move in early, just was still touching up some things. But I said if you want to move in, go ahead and it's been great communicating through hemline is a piece of cake.

So, Carrie, did you have much involvement in the tenant screening and choosing the tenant? Because 100%.

Yeah.

Okay, tell us about that.

Yeah, so, and I was pulling it up here. I had 39 people actually go and not necessarily apply, but show interest. They showed some communication with Hemling. They used mostly Zillow, is where it looked like a lot of my potential tenants came from. But they use several different platforms and they would reach out and some would say, you know, apply. I think I had four apply and a few had some showings. So I got to see when they were going to the showings, all of that. And in full communication, I could see them communicating with Hemling. And then I would chime in sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to, but I did and say, hey, I'm, you know, the owner. Can I give you a call? And so I talked to a few of them even, and then just kind of slowly weeded them out based on credit score or their month, you know, how much month's rent they had, qualifications, and. Yeah, and then. And then chose. It came down to two of them and we. We chose one.

So on the credit scores, there's a counterintuitive philosophy, of course, we've all talked about, and that is that you don't want people with exceptionally good credit as your tenants. You know, the common sort of, you know, first level thinking is, yeah, you want, you know, great credit score, that's going to be a better tenant. But those people tend to move out. They don't stick around too long. So tell me how you turn people down with the credit score or weed it out.

Do you say, well, here, let's just say this. I didn't say I took the better credit score, but let's just say, okay, so here it came down to, we'll take a poll about who you guys would take. One was a lower credit score and had hud. HUD voucher. Yeah. Brand new to hud. I've never done it. And through hemline, I was like, okay, well, we can work this out. We'll figure it out. So there was that. The other one was a military. Good credit, but has a small dog. So anyone want to take a poll? Who would you pick? Did I make the right decision?

Well, so do you. Do you have the actual credit scores you can share? So we can really Quantify.

It was 560 and 620. 560 for the HUD, 620 for the military.

Okay. Wow. 564 is pretty low. Okay. That's low. Now, the military tenants. I have had great experience with military tenants. The only problem is they can break your lease if they're, if they're deployed. Right. So, you know, you can't. I mean, a military person always has the right to break a lease if, if they're ordered to go elsewhere. Yeah. So 560 was the HUD voucher person. And with that HUD voucher, did you know, I don't know if you got this far with it. Were they paying all of the rent, section 8, or a portion of the rent? Section 8.

She was short about a hundred dollars she would owe. And then she did get her mom to co sign because she didn't have. She didn't meet that. Two times the monthly income or three times. She only had two times the monthly income.

Can you imagine only having to pay 100 bucks a month or nothing in rent? This is like a foreign world to us real people. But some people, a lot of people in this country have that deal. It's pretty good if you can get it. Okay, so which one would we take? Well, folks, anybody want to weigh in or ask questions or military. Bob takes the military.

Yeah.

Anybody else military?

Yeah, military. Okay. What's the pet rent? Oh, yeah. Are you charging pet rent?

It was $50 extra a month and a $200 pet deposit.

I like the pet rent. Yeah, 50 bucks extra is a lot for a small dog. I mean, like for one animal. That's. That's pretty good. Yeah. Carrie, did you feel actually rolling up your sleeves okay. And doing this yourself versus having it far away with property manager? Do you feel a lot more empowered now.

As a landlord?

Yeah, I do. I mean, it did feel nice that I knew exactly what was going on. I knew how much they were charging me. You know, I've heard some stories lately of some, some of our old property management careers that we don't really use anymore, but they're not getting itemized receipts. They're not getting, you know, you're just getting billed here. I, I charge you $500 for paint. There's nothing, you know, itemized about it. Just you had to charge. Pay for paint. When I knew exactly what I was getting. One of my. I didn't end up using this guy. He was like $600 more for paint. But he went and did a whole video walkthrough. And we're going to get this wall. This wall, this wall. So I got to see everything that was in the house too, that, you know, there was scuff marks there. Was a crack in the ceiling or whatever happened in the ceiling that they needed to fix. So, no, it was great. It was great to see it all photos, the photos come in instantly from hemline. So I got to see everything. I ordered, did what Jason would do, and I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Amazon and I shipped it to my handyman. I said, here you go, it's gonna be. I wasn't charged extra and. And I now have a lockbox at the unit that my tenant just stored away too. So any future situations that she can just put it back on.

Yeah, that's cool. So now you're ready and you're empowered. You know, I remember when I banked with the same big bank for many years. Well, those criminals at Wells Fargo. And I remember when I left Wells Fargo and I thought, oh my God, I hate this bank. I just don't want to because it's just too complicated. You got all your bill pays set up and all of this stuff. And once I did it and I just bit the bullet, I got all the addresses off the bill pay, I copied and pasted them into a document so I could put them into the new bank. And once I did it, I felt like now I'm empowered. I can move banks, right? And moving banks when you have got a lot of affairs is kind of a big deal, right? And now I think that's how you feel that you are self managing so that you're really empowered and you're kind of a free agent now. You know, you're not beholden to any property manager or anything like that. And you have a relationship with your tenant and your tenant now has the social pressure of having a relationship with you, which I find to be extremely effective versus them dealing with some, you know, amorphous property management company out there in the ether. You know, they don't know, they don't care. It's like they're going to just ask for everything and anything. It's like an institution, you know, but you're a person, right? And usually people feel, I mean, decent people, not everybody, unfortunately, but you know, decent people feel a pressure of a social relationship and that can work in your favor. So, yeah, good stuff.

No, she's text me. I'm very happy. Thank you for everything. So I did end up going with the military. I figured that would kind of be, I don't know, it just felt. So then I made Hemling go and because I talked to both and the one that didn't get the property, I had Hemling tell Her, she didn't get it that they accepted a different.

Oh, so you made them do your dirty work. They made them be the bad guy.

I couldn't do it. I felt so bad.

Now, one interesting thing is, you know, you can make a little bit of pocket change off these applications. And you know, landlords do this. I mean, big institutional landlords do this. Like, it's really ridiculous how much they take because they'll charge a $200 application fee or some ridiculous thing like that. But, you know, I used Inago on a couple of my rent ups. Okay. And with Inago, and by the way, all of these demos are on my rent YouTube channel. Okay. All of these software demos, whether they be Inago, Hemlane Rent ready, all of them, you can go see me interview the founders, most of the time the founder or CEO, and they do a software demo on that YouTube. That's not my main YouTube channel. It's my small YouTube channel that is sort of dedicated toward software and technology. Anyway, with Inago, you can charge whatever you want for the application fee. Okay. And then you can select which of the three things, you know, unlawful detainer filing, credit check and criminal. Right. Or you can do two of the three. Or one of the three. Or whatever. I do all three. But you actually pay them like, I don't know, $30 for it and you charge 50 for it. Right. So, you know, you make 20 bucks on each deal and sometimes you get a lot of applicants. Right. So this is a common thing and, you know, just don't abuse it, obviously. But you know, it's a little extra pocket change that the property manager's been pocketing. Okay. And the property manager's been pocketing late fees a lot of the times, so on and so forth. So I just really want people to get empowered and self manage their properties. Any other questions, thoughts on this topic? What market was it in Alabama?

Alabama. Montgomery. So down south.

Montgomery. Thanks. Cool. How many people are self managing at least one of their properties? Yeah. Okay. Okay, Good, good, good. Real quick question on that. Montgomery, Alabama. Did you have a problem with the previous property manager? Is it. Was there a particular reason that you chose that one?

Well, the previous property manager, for one, their base wasn't near my property. They were a couple hours away. And then the tenant I had in before basically didn't pay for six months. And I tried to ask for eviction. This, I mean, should I go into this one, Jason?

Yeah.

Okay. So they ended up not paying. They paid the first month's rent and the deposit of course. And then they didn't pay for the next six months.

And what was the property manager doing all this time?

Right. So I kept asking, you know, you know, let's do this. No, I think we can get it worked out. Whatever. I don't know why I listened to them. I just was stuck in my own. Okay, they know what's best. So around September, I get a big lump sum of money. And I said, well, great. They made it up. They paid. This is awesome. But then the next month, they moved out, and I terminated my property. Property manager said, oh, by the way, you owe us back that 4,500.

Oh, don't give it back.

Just my previous tenant had paid on the credit card and then disputed the credit card charges, and my property manager lost the dispute. So now you get what I'm saying.

In my opinion, that is their problem.

Yeah. So they asked me.

So did you give it? Did you give the money back? Yeah. Don't do it. Keep the money. Okay, first of all, my money.

It's their fault, right?

Of course it's their fault. All right, look, did you agree that they could take rent payments via credit card?

Well, and that's what I asked them.

And how do you lose a rent dispute on a credit card? Like, either they rented the house or not, you know, I mean, I don't know if any of you. How many of you have merchant accounts in your business? Do you have a business with a merchant account? Yeah. So we have this. And occasionally we get some scumbag that disputes a charge, and we always fight it, you know, now sometimes it's legit, and, you know, we just give in and give them the money back. Right? Because, you know, sometimes they click the button too many times. And, like, we just had one that paid, like, three times for one of those. That was you, right? We gave you your money back. Okay, but, you know, some of these people, they're just evil, right? And they just go around charging things. It's like writing bad checks. Okay, you get that sometimes. And that's what these tenants did. Maybe, if the property manager is being honest with you. Right, but did you agree to let them accept rent via credit card? Like, rent should not be on a credit card, folks.

I guess I'll have to look back, but they said it's common that credit cards. Otherwise they wouldn't. You wouldn't get rent paid if you didn't accept credit cards.

Yeah, I don't. I've never accepted a credit card for rent. Okay. And I've had probably now you know, and this is a guess, but maybe 2,000 tenants or more in my life, you know, in my own properties. Okay. And I've never accepted a credit card ever. All right, so don't take credit cards. That's too easy for them to screw around. But I bet the property manager lost that dispute because they didn't do anything about it. They probably just ignored it, didn't fight it, didn't do what they should have done. And it's their problem. Keep the money, Carrie. Okay?

That's what my attorney Mathias told me. Just keep the money.

Your attorney Muthaya.

Oh, Muthaya is not an attorney. That's why we're laughing. Anyway, okay. Any other questions or thoughts about this? So, Carrie, you had a victory there. Then you did get paid for all those months. Yeah. Good. Hello. Good night.

I'm Anja Are here.

And this might be still a question, but basically, just like the one time we self manage, which we don't do it now, but we're about to do it to Sam.

Right.

We just made the tenant pay the.

Money on our bank account and we.

Didn'T have any processor like Himalayan or anything. So is it highly advised to have.

Himalayan or in Algo one of these things?

Or can we just get the rent.

Let them deposit it on the bank account or like.

Good, good question. I really want to answer that question. Okay. That's a great question. So I did it with him, Lane for a while. And you know, it's pretty good, but it's not perfect. Okay. Because there is a little delay, like the first time. There's definitely a delay. You're gonna have to wait like a week and a half or something on the first payment. But then, you know Dana, who's by the way, been on here and we'll probably have her on again. She's one of the hemline founders. Right. She says it gets faster and faster. Right. But I just like getting my rent on the first. Okay. And I don't like it when they deposit the money in the account. And I don't like it when they wire the money because I can't tell who put it in there. And I do have. All my rents are slightly different, so I can tell by the amount, but they don't always pay the right amount. Okay. What I like is I like them to pay via Zelle. Okay. Because with Zelle, I get a notification when it comes in with a wire. Unless your bank's different or. I don't know how to do this with my bank. You know, I Got to go and look. And I got to constantly, like, log into the website and look and see if it's there or with a deposit where they walk into one of the branches and deposit it. I don't like that. I want it just via Zelle, that I know who it's from. I get a notification when it came in. And, you know, on my Google calendar every month, I have an alert on the 3rd of the month, it says, rents delinquent. Okay. It reminds me, right, that the rents are delinquent. I personally like Zelle best. That's my opinion. And from what I understand, they cannot reverse a Zelle payment. Okay, so if we're using Zelle, then do we. Must we use him, Lane? Or like, I mean, I just want to know. Good question. All of these softwares, and I don't want to make this all about him, Lane. Okay? There's other systems besides theirs. Okay. But you know, they're one that's available, and Dana's been very supportive. Okay. But with any of those systems, you can use all the other features of the software and not use the payment system, because remember, that clears through their bank first. And if they go under or if. Exactly. Crooks like, I don't want to. I just want the most direct payment I can get, okay? If I don't get the Zell on the first. I know it. And that's it. It's just clean. Okay? Okay.

Yes.

Perfect. Thank you. Thanks.

Well, you can use all the other features they have and not use their payment system.

Okay?

That's. They want you to use their payment system because they make the float and, you know, they're getting some credits. I'm sure when I used to own an escrow company years ago, you know, you get what they call analysis cred. Okay? And so I had an escrow trust account and, you know, had millions and millions of dollars. If I was a crook, that would have been a good time to be a crook, okay. Because I could have just taken off with the money, right? And you know, we get what's called analysis credits. They don't actually pay you, but what the bank does is they'll, like, pay for your software. Okay. You know, your escrow software, they'll pay for this, that or the other thing, right? And apparently this is all totally legit and legal. And so. So that's. I'm sure what himlane or whatever company is getting, you know, so they're getting some benefit to doing that, and that's why they want you to process it through their Systems, but I just like to be correct. Agree. Thanks. Other questions?

Yes, I have one. Hi. Hi everyone. Thank you so much. Mr. Hartman, I'm your new client. I just started investing in the progresses with Mmallen and Associates and I'm super happy. So my question. So basically two of my. Two of my new properties are managed by America's rental management managers, right? So basically I'm happy with them and they put the tenants in place because I live in New York and so my properties are in Alabama. And my question is. So like I, I think maybe from the point, ethical point of view, so this is a good management company which helped me to put tenants in place, right? So who play who, they prove them, pre approve them, they make sure that the tenants pay the rent on time and everything is great. And by the way, those properties are new constructions. The point is like, what is the line, I guess between like when I need the manager to move forward and when I don't need it and how ethically politically correct, maybe I don't know how to say it right, to distinguish this point when I can move forward with self management.

Okay, great question and thank you for being a new client. And Bob, this relates to the question you asked me earlier on Voxer. Okay? So maybe we bring this. Here's the thing, folks. You know there's an old saying in the world of banking, right? And the old saying, you've all heard it, is he who has the gold makes the rules, okay? And that is also true with real estate. And here's what I mean by that. Whoever has the asset makes the rules because they have such a big advantage in having the asset that the whole world wants, okay? Even when it's more of a buyer's market, there's still a scarcity of real estate assets overall, okay? And so you kind of have to play their game. And one of the prices you pay for playing their game and getting them to sell you the property is you usually end up agreeing to their management. And their management might start out well. And I hate to burst your bubble, Elena, but it's not going to be good forever, okay? It's kind of like dating, okay? It's really good in the beginning and then it usually fizzles out, okay? Hopefully not always, but ultimately you just want to be independent of that. If you've got a good property manager, which is such a rare, rare thing, then keep them. But make sure you don't think they're good when they're not really good, okay? Because you're not maybe paying close Enough attention to what's going on. Okay. So that's the one thing I would say. So just watch them evaluate the relationship and just understand that there are some just like industries and you know, this is just my opinion. Okay, Argue with me, anybody if you want to. But you know, where usually consumers just don't have good experiences with a few different industries. Right. I've given the examples on my show. Right. Lawyers, usually people don't have anything good to say about their lawyer. Okay. I mean, you know, and definitely not the other side's lawyer. Right. Or the legal system in general. Right. And then, you know, contractors is another one. Right. Whenever you need something done at a property, like you know, contractors that are notoriously late, they're notoriously over budget. The same with a lawyer. You know, it's like it's never cheaper than you expect. It's always much more expensive. The results rarely quite as good as you expect. It's usually worse. Right. And that's true with property management too. Most of the time it's just not good. I mean, look, we've given them the benefit of the doubt so many times over the last 20 years that I've been doing this working with investors nationwide that I just kind of given up honestly, you know, and if you're new to investing, have your manager in the beginning, learn from them and then gain the power to be independent. And I just bet you a lot of money that you're going to have a better experience self managing. It's really quite easy. And my argument is less time, okay? I spend like no time on self management. When I have a property manager, I got to go argue with a third party who's, you know, got their hand in the cookie jar. Okay. I don't want anybody controlling my rent checks. I just want to get the whole check every month. It's just a funny thing. When I self manage, I always get the full amount. When I have a manager, somehow, some way, I don't know, the property always needs this, that and the other thing. Somehow I just don't get my checks. Right. I don't get my full amount. When I say check, I mean zelle payment. But you know what I mean? Check is kind of an old fashioned way to say it. Brett, did you have a thought on that?

Thank you so much.

I actually went through that and I got 12 houses through Jason and Jason, thank you because I, I got my first house in 2014. So we're at about 10 years with you now like and you're now.

Congratulations.

Yeah, well, Actually, yeah, you made me a millionaire and I've never been my whole life and you actually did it. So you are, you are the guy I speak very highly of.

I'm honored.

That's awesome.

But I feel like you give the best advice. I think you just, you're. It's in your DNA. You know, you just kind of have a good eye for things. So you had said that to self manage and you know, I was a little uncomfortable with that at first because it's just like the all unknowns. But what I did, after I accumulate a few properties, I just decided to just pick an area because I had like the Deltona, Florida area and then I had Memphis and then I went into Alabama. So those are like my three areas. Because you say kind of do like three markets, right? So I said I'm just going to do one thing at a time and as I grow with that, I'm going to go deep and then I'm going to, after I get in deep, I'm going to go wide. Perfect. That's what I did.

Great idea. So you do one market, you do all your properties in that one market and then you do. Yeah, yeah.

Then I started to see clearly what I need to do. And I have my own system and I would kind of do my own spreadsheets. I just do Google sheets for my expenses and I do cash flow and I just create all my formulas. That took a little time, you know, but I have my own way of doing it. You know, I would just call like, I mean you're going to need probably like an electrician and appliance guy, maybe like a septic person if you got like a septic. You know, city, city's always better, right? You know, just your basic contractors and talk to three of them or four of them and just get a spreadsheet. You know, commit to yourself. It's an investment of your time. And I would just kind of price out. I would say, hey, you know, even if I didn't need work, I would say I'm looking for someone. I have a few properties here and I'm looking for a handyman. Can you tell me like what you charge and how you do it? And I would just kind of, you know, you'd be surprised. Like some of them don't really tell you till later on the conversation, like, oh, there's a travel fee or here. And I'm like, I didn't know there were travel fees for contractors. But there is for some places, you know, but some are just very Upfront, and those are the kind of the ones, you know, that I like. But that's what I did. And then once I. After, like a year or two went by, I could tell which. Which ones are more, like, prompt. Good. You know, you just learn, and then now you have a relationship and just sticks. And then you. Now once you get that, you just go to the next market. It's easier, you know?

Right, right. But, Brett, it's even easier than that. Where are you sourcing your. Your contractors from all your maintenance people?

Yeah, I mean, I. I go online also, too. Is I. I know you could do it. You can kind of look at reviews off of. What's that website?

Yep.

Was it?

Yep.

There was another one, too, just for contractors. Yeah, yeah, that's.

I would just go on Google a lot and then just look at, like, reviews, but I would kind of watch how far the reviews go back from the current day. Because when you see chunks of reviews done, like the 25 reviews done in, like, the same, like, time span, like two months, you know, they're all like, friends and family, you know, Probably a scam. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But look, it's better than what you're going to get from the property manager, because with property manager, you have only their review, and their review might be, you know, unduly influenced by the fact that they're getting kickbacks from them. Right. So it's so easy. You are so empowered to just go directly nowadays. It's so easy to go to taskrabbit.com thumbtack.com. yeah, Yelp. I mean, Yelp has a whole thing now where you just fill out the work order on their website. It's so easy.

Oh, really?

Unbelievable. And TaskRabbit, it takes, like, a minute. It's so quick. It's just. Just easy. This stuff's easy nowadays, folks. You know, it didn't always. It wasn't always that way. Okay. I mean, now you're just much more empowered than you used to be. Okay. And you get to know what things are worth, what they cost, what's. You know, when someone's scamming you when they're not. And it's just easy. Like, you. You never have to even talk to these people. You just do it through the interface on the site and it's just super quick. You know, a couple keystrokes and you're taken care of. So you're empowered. Okay.

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