2329: Gold That Pays You: Solving the Age-Old Problem of Non-Yielding Gold with Keith Weiner

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Greetings, empowered investors. Welcome to episode 2329. 2329. We're getting up there, aren't we? And welcome to listeners from 189 countries worldwide. It's great to have you. Today we are going to talk about that ancient unit of monetary value, real money. And that is gold, as opposed to currency like the dollar, the yen, the euro, the peso or any other fiat currency. We're going to talk about gold today and an interesting solution to the gold problem that I have talked about for the last 21 years and that is the idea that you can't earn a yield on gold. Well, check out this interview with our guest coming up in just a moment. In just a moment. But before you do that, I want you to go to Jason Hartman.com Phoenix Jason Hartman.com Phoenix and join us for upcoming JHU or Jason Hartman University. Now this is a workshop type event, small setting, it's not big like Empowered Investor Live. And this will be in Phoenix at the end of September. It'll be a great time. We have a bonus property tour attached to the event. You will learn the math of income property and you will solve the problem that most people haven't solved where some investors simply don't know how to do the math. They don't know how to truly evaluate an investment. You will be using a pen and paper and writing and engaging and building your real estate portfolio at this event. We haven't done a JHU event in quite a while. I started doing this event maybe I want to say about 12 years ago was maybe the first JHU event and we're going to be doing it again in Phoenix, Arizona coming up at the end of September. So go to Jason Hartman.com Phoenix and get your tickets for this. Tom. That's a very inexpensive, easy, low key event. Not a big production like Empowered Investor Live, but heavy on learning. And we are going to see some distressed properties at this event as well with some motivated sellers. More on that later. All right. Our master class is also coming up. Those are free every single month the second Wednesday of the month. Go to Jason hartman.com Wednesday to register for that. So two things to do. And now let's go ahead and get to our guest and talk about earning a yield on metals. It is my pleasure to welcome someone who solves a big problem that has existed since the beginning of time and that is Keith Weiner. He is the founder of Monetary Metals. As you probably know, they are a sponsor of the show and I wanted to bring him on because of his sponsors solution to this age old problem. What is that problem? Well, the problem is that people have invested in precious metals since the beginning of time and they don't produce a yield. They just sit there collecting dust. So it's a pretty good insurance policy. You should have some. I've always recommended that. But Monetary Metals provides yield on that gold and silver. So let's dig into this. Keith, welcome. How are you?

Doing good, doing good. Thanks for having me Jason.

And you are a self described computer nerd and you are coming to us from London and I guess your background is you had a software company, right. And an exit and then started Monetary Metals.

Yeah, I had a software company called diamond where we made a 3D spatial audio technology for voice communications.

Okay.

Virtual world, you know, running around in virtual reality or something like that. Sold that in 2008 to Nortel Networks. And then watching the crisis unfold first I felt, you know, sort of amused.

And the crisis you're referring to as the global financial crisis, the GFC that's right.

Everything collapsing and I had my exit just squeaked in under the door.

Right. In 2008.

Yeah, August 19, 2008.

Wow.

It was very real. But then as I was watching that unfold, I was like, I could lose everything. I just spent 14 years working on what is going on here. And so I got deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole like so many people do, studying this stuff and, you know, came to realize gold is part of. There's a problem and the dollar and gold is part of the. Part of the solution.

Yeah. So it's been, you know, thought of by many as an insurance policy. Right. Just have some just in case. Right. Because we all know the fiat money story and, you know, the Federal Reserve and the whole thing. Right. We all stuff by now. Back in the old days, though, 18, 20 years ago, when I was starting to teach this stuff, I mean, people just didn't understand it. You know what I think brought people's attention to the whole corrupt monetary system we have, and that is bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. People today are aware of this stuff. And of course, the. The Creature from Jekyll island, the famous book she had, Rude Griffin's been on the show many times over the years, the author. And now people get it, but they don't always know the solution. Right.

Yeah, I was going to say, you know, before bitcoin, and I'm not, as people who know me know, I'm not a big fan of bitcoin.

Yeah, I have my reservations about it too, for sure.

Before bitcoin, getting people to talk about the monetary problem was you might as well ask people to start talking about, I don't know, root canal or lobotomy or something. I mean, it's just, you know, nobody even wanted to think about it. And, you know, post that you have millions and millions of people talking about the monetary system and the fact that it is corrupt and the fact that it is irredeemable in more ways than one. And so thanks to bitcoin, yeah, that conversation is happening and there's an audience out there for it for sure.

Right, right, I agree. So I just want to tell this quick story. Many of my listeners have heard it over the years. You know, I've told it more than once. I think it's a good lead into what you do and how you solve this problem. So here's what happened right before, like the Great Recession, you know, maybe it was, I don't know, you can look it up. But 2005, 6, 7, something like that. I got a telemarketing call from a company called Monix and they're a gold dealer, right? They sell precious metals, silver, gold, that kind of stuff, right? The typical standard type of company. And you know the salesperson starts pitching me Iraq, Iran, the Federal Reserve, this, that, the national debt, all the other, you know, all the usual stuff, all the usual arguments which makes sense, right? And he said you should buy these gold coins. And so I said look, I'll buy the coins, stop selling me. I, you've got, you got the order, okay, I'm going to send you the money. I'm going to send you cashier's check and you send me the gold coins. And I said but I have a couple questions for you. I said I'm a real estate investor and you know one of the things I like about my real estate is I can rent it out to somebody else and they will send me income, rental income, right? And I said, you know, do you know anybody that I can rent my gold to? And he said no, we don't do that. So, so you guys have solved that problem. And that's what's really interesting about your business model. Tell us how that works.

It's exactly that. It's renting it out. So the question is who is the renderer who actually wants to rent gold?

Yeah.

So you know there's about a dozen different verticals. Jewelry manufacturers, jewelry wholesalers, jewelry retailers, refiners, mints, recyclers. And when you're done with your mobile phone you drop it off at the AT&T store, Walmart or wherever you got it. And you know there's a whole ecosystem of companies. Somebody wants a glass, of course, somebody wants a battery to recycle the lithium. The chips have some value in some market and then you end up with a bare naked circuit board. It turns out there's a little bit of gold. They have gold plated contacts. So you know, people buy you know, shipping containers full of those circuit boards and the purchase price is based on the gold value obviously the big discount because it takes a lot of processing to get the gold out of it. But it's based on the gold value. So there's about a dozen different verticals where they have gold as inventory or gold as work in progress. And so if this were copper and copper is $5 a pound, you need to just buy the copper and be done. It's not that much money, forget about it. But gold at $3,300 an ounce has got to be financed. The Conventional finance is you go to the bank and you get a loan, you know, so let's say you have a million dollars worth of gold inventory you need to buy. You borrow a million dollars. You buy the million dollars worth of gold, what do you do? If the price of gold drops 10%, which you could do, you know, if you own gold long enough, you will see a 10% drop somewhere along the way. Now you have a $900,000 asset, but you still owe a million dollars in liability. You're insolvent. And you know, banks tend to get upset about that sort of thing.

Yeah.

Take your business and force you down to the mat.

Sounds like what you're really talking about here is kind of a mark to market problem that they have. Right. And why?

With a conventional solution.

Yeah, right, right. With a convent problem. But that's their problem that you're explaining. Right.

They need to borrow like a million and a quarter, buy a million worth of gold, stick a quarter million in a brokerage account and short gold futures on margin. That's what they normally do. And then of course, if the gold price goes up, then they, they get host. So we come and say, look, instead of this borrowing, how about we own the gold and lease it to you? You can rent it. And as long as you're always maintaining that inventory of, in this case, a million dollars or 300 ounces, I mean, leases would be a lot bigger than that. But in this example, as long as you're always maintaining that inventory of 300 ounces, then you know, we're happy to own it and allow you to change form and work it and do whatever you do. And every day you're buying more supply, and every day you're selling more finished product. But you always have 300 ounces in inventory. Then all you have to do is make a rental payment and you don't worry about just like renting, you know, if you have a business, you want to rent an office or do you want to own the office?

Right.

Office. You have obviously all the maintenance and repairs, but you have the capital gains and losses. If you just want to run a software company, you're better off not complicating it by trying to own real estate. I learned that lesson in my software company. Boy, did I learn that lesson hard.

Well, tell us about that quickly. Just. I know that's a little bit of a tangent, but tell us.

I had two business partners. We formed an LLC to own the real estate for the office. And then we moved into a bigger office and we bought Another one, some office condos. And when it came to a parting of the ways, it's like, okay, I'll buy out your interest in the real estate LLC in exchange for largely their interest in the software company. Few dollars of cash exchanged hands. That was easy. That was fine, except the company had co signed was a guarantor on the, on the loans. And so when it came time to sell the company, the fact that the company was a cosigner was a real problem that had to be fixed years later. And neither the bank nor the ex partners were especially inclined to make that easy. So I, I jumped through some hoops and barked like a seal and did all the things.

So, so it wasn't the real estate that was the problem. It was the, it was just the business arrangements. I got it. Okay. Okay, so go ahead. Let's, you know how, how you solve that problem then so you sol market problem for them, right?

Yeah, we rent them the gold and then they don't own it and it's not their problem. The price risk goes to the investors who own it and off of the, off the shoulders, you know, away from the business that's using it.

And what kind of gold are you renting? Is it all bullion bars? Is it ever coins or what is it?

What tell us as a deposit, you know, bars and coins, but we'll turn that into a sort of fungible pool. And so if this is a jewelry store now, it's hard to picture in the United States because jewelry stores don't really have all that much gold. And you know, you pick up this gold necklace and it's very delicate and it's very fine. It could be 14 carats or 18 carats. It's clearly not a lot of weight of gold in it. We go into a jewelry store in the Middle East. There's 50 kilograms of gold by weight in that store.

Wow.

About $5 million in gold.

Yeah.

When we do a lease to one of those jewelers, and they do have stores in the US but generally those stores cater to, I mean anybody can walk in and buy stuff, but they market to the ethnic communities, typically Indians that go for that kind of jewelry, at least inception, we're essentially purchasing that or swapping. So we have the investors gold, let's say, in the form of bars at a brink swalt, and we swap it for the same weight of metal in the form of rings and bracelets and necklaces and earrings and pendants and whatever in the store. And then right after that, the store says, okay, Liquidate those bars. They want to get the cash out of the inventory to repay the previous finance probably, or whatever they're doing with that cash. And so the monetary metals, you know, clients own that inventory of that store. So it's not bars and coins, it's jewelry. And they literally own that jewelry. So, you know, gold being fungible, the theory is if you have an ounce of gold, it doesn't really matter that much whether that's an ounce in the form of a necklace or that's an ounce in the form of a gold eagle. You've got an ounce of gold. It's an ounce of gold.

Right. And by the way, just, you know, fungible isn't a word people commonly hear or use. So I just want to explain that, you know, dollars are fungible. Right. Like gold. Because it doesn't matter which dollar you have, it has the same value. Right. That it doesn't matter which bar of gold you have, it has the same value and it's universally useful. If you want to elaborate on that, feel free.

Yeah. There was a Supreme Court precedent in the 19th century. Some farmer had brought a whole bunch of wheat to a grain elevator, you know, parked it there and then X number of months later went to withdraw his wheat, quote, unquote, his. And, you know, sued because it wasn't exactly the same. Wheat kernels, some other farmers, wheat kernels. And when it was the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court said, weed is fungible.

Yeah.

The kernel of wheat is a kernel of wheat.

Right. The world around. Pints a pound. The world around, as my great grandmother used to say. Yeah.

And, you know, if you wanted to store your wheat kernels, you could have stored it in your own barn. But by putting it in a grain elevator, you accept the fact that you're going to get. They're just going to scoop whatever you know, they scoop, and it's not going to be, quote, unquote, yours. And that became, you know, the several precedents. Commodities are fundable, and that's one of them.

Right.

Of course, gold, you know, is element 79. It has atomic number 79. Any Au 79 atom is the same as any other. So as long as you have a lump of metal that has a certain weight that's equivalent and has the same value plus or minus the premium. Okay. Eagles may have a bit, you know, 1% more because it's an eagle, but conceptually, that's what. So we rely on that. Our clients are okay with that. And as long as they're getting, you know, 4% return on it. That's what makes the whole exercise worthwhile. If we said we want to pay you zero and want to do that, everybody, like, no way. Of course.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, good. So I think one of the problems people might anticipate with renting gold is, you know, how do you keep track of that collateral? Like what kind of rent payment do people or these companies make on the gold that you rent?

So they're paying us, you know, gold lease fee. We're paying 4% to the clients. Obviously, the lessee, the jewelry store, is paying a bit more than that. So we make a little spread in the middle. And it's in gold, by the way. So if you have 100 ounces of gold in this lease, you have 104 ounces at the end of the year. So they're paying off some gold. We're paying the clients in gold. And how do you keep track of it? Yeah, we have a software platform that we built proprietary to us that we call Goldmine Gold Mine. Can track every serial number, every sku, down to the gram, actually down to six significant figures. Every ounce, a lot less than a gram. And every day we're getting inventory reports from every dueler and every lessee, you know, generated by their computer. In the case of the jewelry, we have an additional layer on top of that, which is RFID technology. So every piece of jewelry is tagged, a little RFID tag, and the jeweler has to scan each piece of jewelry every day, thus proving the inventory is still there. And if the tag is tampered with, it doesn't function anymore. It won't scan.

Interesting. Okay. All right. Okay, good, good.

You know, we have insurance, you know, on top of that, you can never say zero risk. Right. Anybody who promises a return without risk, run, because that person is a charlatan.

Sure.

But this is the lowest risk thing that we can think of to do something productive with a metal and hence earning return. And I. I think it's pretty low risk.

Yeah. Have you had any default problems or tell us about that? I'm sure it's happens once in a while. Right.

No client has lost any gold.

Wow. So. And, but. But have. Have you had a default and just had insurance that. That when you say client, is the client? Is the client the investor or the lessee of the gold?

When I'm saying clients, I'm talking about the people who own the gold and put it out to get a return.

Got it, Got it. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. Interesting. Okay. Any other use cases you want to Share for the renters of the gold, how it works behind the scenes on the counterparty.

We've had a lessee for a very long time. It's kind of on again, off again, sometimes at least you know, terminates and restarts, whatever. But they make a product that is called the Aurum. So it's a manufactured product about the size of a dollar bill. But it's two layers of clear plastic with a very, very fine foil of gold, like atom thick gold sandwiched in between. So it's durable. You can crumple it, fold it, stick it in your pocket. The gold isn't damaged, but they can manufacture very precise quantities of gold in there, down to 1/1,000th of an ounce or 1/10th of a gram. The way that's made is they use a high tech process called sputtering. So sputtering is a giant machine and there's a big vacuum chamber in there. So you suck out all the air and you have this big target of gold which is, you know, it's almost a meter long and 8 inches wide and a few millimeters thick. And that goes in the machine. And then the machine has this almost like, think of like a read write head for spinning disk drive, except the head moves around an oval race over this bar, this target it's called and it's, it's blasting it with I think it's high energy electrons, but don't quote me on that. The gold becomes superheated to like 8,000 degrees. At a little point, the gold becomes ionized. The gold ions fly through the vacuum, find the plastic, impregnate themselves into the plastic which has the opposite charge. And then you can get this not only very thin layer, but very, very even and very consistent. But now the physical challenge of the machine is because you're going around an oval race, you can't get to the center, you cannot get to the corners, and you don't dare over penetrate it. If you go through the layer of gold, you get to the copper or the aluminum which is the carrier, and then you mess up the machine, you spoil a lot of work. So you have to stop it before you actually consume to the bottom depth of the gold. So about 2/3 of the weight of the gold is not consumable. And so we lease them the non consumable portion of the gold in that target. And because there's a number of targets, those targets are fairly big, that ends up being quite a lot of gold. Again, if it was copper, you just buy it and forget about it, right? Gold if you're talking hundreds or thousands of too expensive needs to be financed somehow.

And so that's very interesting.

Totally different use case than versus jewelry. You know, it's manufacturing, but again, there's a lot of gold there. The gold doesn't go anywhere. The gold can't. By the physical design of the machine, that gold cannot be consumed.

Okay, so they need to use the gold, but they can't actually. They don't need to consume the gold. So they rent. That makes a lot of sense for that business to rent that.

Right, right, exactly. So they have one rental payment, easy tax deduction, no price, risk. No. Anything else. Risk.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, let's. Let's move to what the listener slash investor could get on this. They. They basically, the system works. They buy gold and then they lease the gold out and they get a 4% return in gold. Right? Okay. Now the interesting thing about that is 4% may not really be 4%. If gold is on the upswing, that could be a much better return. Right. I always called it this kind of boring asset. Right? It just didn't do that much. You know, it's like, okay, you know, it's an insurance. Right. I treated it like that. But lately, gold has been doing pretty well. Talk to us about that.

If you like the term fungible, I have an even better one for you. The finance people will talk about convexity, okay? This idea that, okay, you know, you buy whatever a hundred thousand dollars worth of gold with monetary metals, put it to work, and the interest, you know, the yield or the lease fee, whatever you want to call it, is rising with a rising gold price. You know, you think, okay, I put $100,000 to work. 4% is $4,000. But if the gold price were to go up, you know, 25%, then you're actually getting $5,000 in interest instead of $4,000 in interest. Now, we don't tend to really promote that too much because in our view, gold isn't actually going up. It's the dollar going down. And I love to use an analogy of suppose you're standing on the deck of a ship, and the ship is both, number one, slowly sinking and number two, it's tossing around in the waves of a very stormy sea. And you're standing there on the deck of the ship talking to your friend, saying, there's a lighthouse over there. Why is the lighthouse going up and down and mostly up? Well, the lighthouse isn't going anywhere. You're actually on the deck of a ship which is going down and up and mostly down.

It's all relative, of course.

Yeah. So we don't, you know, really talk about, okay, gold's going up and you're capturing that. Of course, if you own the gold, that's your gold. If it goes up to $4,000 an ounce, that's your gain. You're just renting it out. Nobody owns it but you. And the, the rental fee, which is paid in gold, the gold is also worth more. And so, you know, all that gain is yours. If you, if you think of a rising gold prices gain, as I said, we don't, I mean, however you slice it, it's yours.

This is, I got, I got it. But since, since. Look, Keith, I mean we live in a fiat money dollar world, right? So it is going up if you look at it that way. Because everything else you might invest in, you're going to compare it that way. Right. And of course, you know, you have to take out the real rate of inflation, not the CPY as I call it, to determine what your relative position is. But you know, it's, it's going up relative to the context in which we live, which is the dollar context. Okay, so do you have a calculator that shows how that might work? I would really like to see a calculator like that. Because if the price is exactly the same, then the return is 4%. If the price goes down or up. What does that. Convex tivity. Convex tivity I guess is the word. Yeah. What does that look like?

So let's say, you know, my example, you know, gold is whatever, 3,300 right now. So you buy $100,000 worth of gold. If the gold price doesn't change, then the 4% added to your gold is 1.2 ounces, you know, 30 ounces, 4% of that 1.2 ounces, which is worth $4,000. So you could say, okay, at that point owning 4% gold return is equivalent to owning a 4%, you know, T bill return. But if the gold price goes up 25%, then the convexity means the interest is also going up 25%. And instead of a 4% return, you get a 5% return. So not only does your principal go up 25%, now you have $125,000, but you got $5,000 in interest on it versus 4. That makes sense.

Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Yeah.

So that's conflictivity. Now if your thesis is the gold price is going down, then this is less attractive. But the only thing I can say is if you own gold without a Yield. The downside is greater than if you own gold with a yield. The yield will cushion the downsides and accentuate the upsides.

Yeah, absolutely. Now that's probably worth going into because if the gold goes down in value, you're still getting your 4% as long as you don't sell it at that point. Right. So who controls when the gold is traded?

It's up to the client. We have no discretion. It's your gold. Okay, so if you want to just, you know, participate for 20 years, then what do you think the gold price is going to be in 20 years? Now the Keynesians would say, oh, gold will be $5 after 20 years.

Right.

Leave that, then we have a bridge to sell you in New York. Most likely the gold price will be multiples of whatever it is right now because the dollar is being debased at an increasingly terrifying clip. So we certainly think, and in fact our experience is that the vast majority of our clients keep the gold from year to year and they just renew every year. You have the right to pull out the one year contract, at least more than 99% renew and just keep earning that yield. So we give people their account statements. Of course it does say what the dollar value of the metal is. Everyone wants to know that. If you didn't put that on the account statement, you know, there'd be a mutiny. But front and center is how many more ounces or grams you have. You start out with X number of ounces and pretty soon you have more ounces and people remarking on that, it's like, wow, my ounces is going up.

Why do you like to pay the interest or the yield in gold rather than fiat dollars? I'm just curious about that. Did you pay it the other way before?

No, it was from, from day one it was, you know, paid in gold yield gold paid in gold. That's our trademark. We just want it to be simple interest and a pure gold play.

Yeah, right.

It's actually easier to calculate, it's easier to conceive. If you're paying in dollars, then you have to say, okay, the value of the gold at what date then? Now you're disputing. Oh, on that day, I think the gold price was this. No, no, we're using the PM fix. A lot of Americans may not really be thinking about the PM fix. It just becomes more complicated. It's like you're taking a gold bar and you get this green wrapping paper and you go to this elaborate ceremony to wrap the gold bar with the green. Just tear the paper off. It's just simpler to deal with it as. Wait for weight.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. So are the contracts a certain length of rental? Like, you know, on a. On a property I own, you know, I lease it for maybe a year or two years at a time. Exactly. Or can I trade it anytime?

Typically, leases are one year. They'll never be more than one year, but it's possible it'll be less. But with each lease, you know exactly what the maturity is before you decide to go into it.

Understood. So if I buy the gold and lease it to a company for one year, and if at the end of that year I don't like the price of gold and I don't want to liquidate my gold, I just turn it into another lease, right?

Yeah, you can just roll it over either into that lease or other leases.

Okay.

Typically you're building a portfolio so you have some other leases. The maturities are laddered so you wouldn't have it all maturing on the same in a day. Typically.

Good. What is the exit here? So if I invest with monetary metals and I love it for a time, and then, hey, I decide I want to do something else with my money, do you liquidate my gold for me and pay me FIAT dollars or can you ship me my gold or how does that work?

Yeah, we can. We can ship you your gold or we can liquidate it and send you the dollars.

Okay, interesting.

Your. Your discretion, your control.

Yeah. And you also just directly sell gold and silver, right?

Yeah, I mean, we're not. If you just want to buy some gold eagles or something, you know, call Mon X. We're not going to be a great way to do that. We're not efficient at doing that.

Right.

Not our business. But I was going to say there's a really interesting, subtle, but important point here, which is if you don't get any yield on your gold, the only way you can ever realize any profit on it is by selling it. So you kind of have to go back on whatever your thesis was for buying it in the first place. Monetary debasement. And now that you're selling it, you know, you're selling it to get the gain. But at the same time you're kind of saying, well, I'm happy to own the fiat again because I don't think it's being debased anymore. I'm not exactly sure. But if you're getting a yield on it, you don't necessarily ever need to sell it because you're actually making money. You know, every day on it. So you could, and we certainly have clients who do, you know, they earn the interest on it and they sell the gold they make on interest every month or every quarter, whatever it is, and use that to pay expenses but never actually sell the principal which is, you know, how things used to be before the era of inflation. You know, you're not living on the principle, you're living on the interest or the dividends. Same thing with equities.

In other words, that used to be the philosophy especially for retirees. They would just like put their money in a cd, they'd ladder it and that's how they would, would live.

Right, right, exactly.

Yeah.

So that's what we're enabling now with gold.

Yeah. And you can't do that anymore with dollars because you're basically forced through the financial repression that we've all been suffering for so long to go further down the risk curve. And you know, here's a way that you can not be in, in the fiat world and have a yield at the same time which. Did anybody ever do this before Keith, or are you the first one to do it?

There's been a couple of, you know, sort of half hearted individual dealer would say okay, we'll lease a little bit of metal, you know, bespoke basis from a few clients. Nobody's ever really built a platform for doing this at scale. And most of the guys who have done these sort of self dealing leases, you know, things didn't necessarily work out too good either. They don't necessarily put the controls in place when it, you know, inconvenient to themselves. Yeah, there's been some, some bad, some sad stories of things that have happened.

Sure. Yeah. There's no shortage of scams in everything under the sun basically. So we all know that. Okay, any things you'd like to wrap it up with? Any, you know, closing comments or maybe answering a question or addressing something I haven't asked.

You know, there's, there's a philosophic purpose to what we're doing which is we're trying to bring back the use of gold as money, trying to be monetized gold. And there's an immediate self interest appeal. But it's not just you know, pie in the sky, you know, mom and apple pie kind of stuff. It's also, hey, you know, think about your own situation. Are you not better off owning gold versus not you are. And then secondly, if you own gold, you're not better off earning a yield on it versus paying storage fees. So we're trying to appeal to both sides of that. You know, the sort of the high ground and the very practical of, you know, make some money on your gold and either accumulate more gold or use that for living expenses without eating into the principal.

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Keith Weiner, thanks for joining us. Did you want to share your Twitter link?

Yeah. I'm Eelkeith Weiner. That's K E I and W e I.

And I should say X, not Twitter.

Still called oh, X. That's right. I'm being politically incorrect.

It's tough to change brands after, after a while, especially with something so well known. Keith Weiner, thanks a lot for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

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