2363: Men on Strike: Why This Monumental Social Topic Impacts Real Estate and Household Formation with Helen Smith PhD

This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit hartmanmedia.com so I closed out last month on the real estate side, sold three houses, got two more under contract. It's been a long time coming. But all that stuff that Jason and the rest of the team and I have been working on since Jacksonville, all coming through. So all good stuff.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Greetings empowered investors. And today we have got a very important topic for you. A very important show. Now this could have easily been a 10th episode show, but we are going to cover it on this because I want to get this interview out. I read this book in let's say circa 2018 and after reading it I got my girlfriend at the time to read the book and it had a big impact on both of us as it has on many other people. It's got almost 1400 reviews on Amazon. It's a really important social topic that will be of interest to everybody if you are a man, if you're related to a man, if you're married to a man, or if you know a man, that pretty much covers it, right? You will really want to hear this interview with Helen Smith. She is a PhD and the author of Men on why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood and the American Dream and why It Matters. And let me tell you, this has such wide ranging impact on real estate investing, on household formation, on household size, on just so many things. It's a monumental topic and we're going to get into it with an in depth interview with Helen Smith here in a moment. She has just covered this topic so, so well in the book. A lot of stuff that's in the book is not covered in this interview. So I'd highly recommend you get the book as well and definitely read, give it to other people, spread the message, because it is a really important thing. Okay, just a note on real estate and monetary policy for a moment before we dive into the interview, folks. The money printer is warming up. It is turning on and you know what that means. It means easier accommodative monetary policy. The new Fed chair. We think we know who it's going to be and maybe I'll talk about that on, on a future episode here. But the new Fed chair is only a few months away and this new guy, the most likely candidate, is an easy money, pro growth, dovish Fed chair. And that is great news for you as a real estate investor because what does it mean? It means lower rates, more mortgage credit availability. Remember, it's not just about interest rates. It's not just about the cost of money, but it's about the ease of availability of money. Which, by the way, you must join us for our masterclass. It's the second Wednesday of every month and this one will be a really important one on this topic because it's going to show you how you can easily obtain up to $250,000 in credit to get incredible builder cash discounts on properties. You can use this credit for that purpose. We have some amazing deals where properties are being discounted by 30, $40,000 and you're not really buying it with cash, you're just going to buy it with cash and close quickly for the builder's sake. But then you're going to turn around and you're going to do what's called delayed financing. You'll get a purchase money loan as a delayed loan. Right. And of course, this is always all subject to qualifying. Wednesday's masterclass is getting your new mortgage is always subject to qualifying, of course. So that's my disclaimer. But this opportunity has loosened up. The floodgates are opening. I wouldn't say they're totally open yet, but they are definitely opening. And you do not want to miss our upcoming masterclass. We're going to end the year with a fantastic masterclass. Jason hartman.com Wednesday Jason hartman.com Wednesday it's totally free. No obligation at all. Just register for that and join us because this one is going to be really important if you want to get more money available to scale your business, money that doesn't show up on your credit report, that doesn't affect your debt to income ratio. I mean, it's just a phenomenal opportunity. And we presented this opportunity many years ago, but it just got a lot better. It got better. So join us next Wednesday. That's one week from today at the time of recording. But Wednesday, December 10th masterclass Jason hartman.com Wednesday okay, really important there. But the new Fed chair, he's an accommodative growth oriented. He's like the opposite of Jerome Powell or maybe he's more like Jerome Powell was during the COVID era, right? He kept those rates too low for too long and now he's keeping them too high for too long. But it's all going to change. What is that going to do? We have just about 830,000 homes for sale in this country and we are going to have a big availability of credit, mortgage credit, and that's going to mean millions more people who can qualify for the median price home. They're going to enter the market. Many of those people, you know, I'd estimate a third to half of them will enter the market because we've had this very slow market the last three years and that pent up demand is going to come into the market. A lot of people have been just delaying decisions. And this is a recipe for appreciation. By the way, rents are firming up nicely, all of that excess apartment inventory. Now, apartments and single family homes don't directly connect, but they do influence each other for sure because the apartment market has been so soft for the last few years, oversupplied too many units, not enough renters and they just overbuilt. But guess what, that's firming up. Okay. And rents are now finally rising in the apartment space. And what does that mean? That means upward pressure on rents for single family homes. It's been kind of just very muted, very boring, very quiet for the last few years, but a lot of pent up demand, a lot of people waiting to make decisions. And that is going to benefit you in a big, big way. So be sure to join us next Wednesday. Jasonhartman.com Wednesday and let's get to our interview with Helen Smith, Ph.D. the author of Men on Strike. Very important interview. Here we go. It is my pleasure to welcome someone who I have wanted to have on the show for many, many years, ever since reading her book about six years ago. And that is none other than author and psychologist Helen Smith. She is the author of a very, very important book. Why is this book so important? Because it has so many ripple effects and knock on effects as far as society and how culture works and how relationships work. It is just critically important because it leads to marriage rates, birth rates, everything, divorce rates, everything. So the book is entitled Men on Strike and it's about why Men are giving up. And the interesting thing about it is the book was written many years ago. Helen, welcome. How are you?

I am fine. Jason, thank you so much for having me on your show.

It's good to have you. And the book is 2013, I believe.

Yes, I wrote it in 2013. I did most of the work for it around 2012, but it actually came from a lot of the work I did on a blog in 2005. So it was literally like almost 20 years ago that I started sort of getting a lot of these ideas for my readers.

Yeah, well, it's interesting because most people, if they read that book today, they would think it's just written about contemporary culture. Right. And really these ideas were developed really for another generation almost. I mean, you know, these generations happen pretty quickly. So, you know, it's been, it's been 20 years since he started formulating this stuff online. Helen, before we get into the thesis, the book, your background, you're a clinical psychologist, right? Do you want to talk about your background a little bit?

Yes, my background is in. It's clinical and school psychology. And then I ended up going into forensic psychology, so working with legal issues. And I was always interested in kids, mainly kids who were violent. A lot of those kids would be boys. And I found out a lot of those kids didn't have dads. And it would be just really interesting to see how lost some of those kids actually were. And my practice, even I went to grad school in New York. So back then I would see a lot of men in my practice. And at one point in my practice, when I was in my early 20s, I dealt with a man who was in a wheelchair and his wife was beating him. And at that time I was trying to get help for him, but there were no resources available. And because nobody cares about men, Nobody cares about men. That's how bad it was. Like, even if a man is being beaten, who's disabled, nobody would help. And that's when I really started thinking about all of the things that men go through in our society and how just nobody really cares about, honestly, the average man in our society. Or even, you know, people think, oh, well, if you're rich or if you're, you know, it doesn't matter. All men in our society are susceptible to just an anti male bias that kind of grows across all demographics. If you're male, like, you can have problems today. And, you know, even this really didn't start 20 years ago. It probably started more like, I would say 40 or 50, starting at 60 sort of transition where I think there was just such a feminist movement and there's been such a focus on women and girls and what they need and want, which maybe at the time, you know, I mean, there's debate about that was necessary. However, I think it's morphed into this anti male, anti, you know, toxic masculinity that so many men are having trouble with today. And our culture and our society is suffering as a result of so many men just, I don't want to say bailing out because I think that sounds. I, I called my book Men on Strike. But if you want to know, today, I think that men, they're not opting out. Men are finding new ways to live in the world that are positive for them. And that's what my new forthcoming book will be about. The happening.

What's, what's the title of the new book?

The new book is his side. It's Men Speak out on Dating, marriage and life in America. And that was sort of a book that I thought about, oh, 10 years, you know, it's been like, what now 12 or 13 years since I wrote my last book. And one of the things that's so fascinating to me is what I found with men is the young guys are smart now. I mean, maybe you interact with them in your work, I hope. But a lot of the guys, especially those younger men between 18 and 29. When I went and interviewed men, I broke it down into younger men who were 18 to 34, more middle aged in the 30s, 40s, and then older men. But what I saw with the younger men is they are very, very aware of what's happening to them today with the discrimination and the things that are going on. And when I wrote my book in 2012 and interviewed men, a lot of the young ones didn't really understand at that point.

Yeah. So if a woman is listening to this, she's probably tuning us out right now saying, oh, this is preposterous. Are you kidding? You know, history. Women have been the disadvantaged class and men ran the world. And, you know, I think that's true, largely. Right. Women had their things too, throughout history too. Okay. I mean, they weren't, they, they weren't always such victims as they're portrayed, but whatever. Right. You know, certainly the scales got balanced and now they're imbalanced again. So your new book is, did you kind of do this as a survey of men? It sounds like it's a bit of a.

It was really more in depth interviews because I think what happens is A lot of people write books about men and you'll see them and they'll be like statistics about men. What people don't do is ask men themselves. And people always say, why is a woman writing a book? It's because I always have had an interest in men. And it's not coming from me. It's coming from of the thousands of patients I saw over the years, the thousands of blog readers I've had, the men that I've interviewed. So it's coming directly. What are they saying? So I've always just been fascinated by like, what. What is going on? So I interviewed men and each, each person I would interview between two and four hours, sometimes more. And we exchange, you know, after that, maybe phone calls in or, you know, more information, if I needed it, to really get in depth into how does this play out in a man's life? Like, what are some of the things that men are going through? And that could be anything from discrimination in the HR department at work, where all the men are rounded up, literally rounded up and told, if you're especially a white man, you're not going anywhere. You're going to be staying on the same level. You're not going to get a promotion, which obviously is discrimination. But remember, nobody really cares about that. It's just sort of. I think people are starting to. I think there's more awareness today.

There is, yeah.

Yes. And I think people are starting to say that dei, all the diversity, equity and inclusion, we're starting to see that with this administration. People are looking at that and saying, okay, this has, you know, kind of gone on long enough. But it's not only that, it's men on day to day life. For example, on the college campus, a lot of the men in the book, new book, I have one thing that was interesting is I got to go to a fraternity house and talk to a group of men about how were they experiencing. And I have to say all the men were very positive. There was no, you know, people think, oh, it's the manosphere that, you know, like, oh, a bunch of misogynist men out there. Nobody was like that at all. It was, everybody was friendly and just wanted to share their story. So going back to what you said, if a woman was watching this rather than tuning out, I would say there are so many people out there, from your sons to your brothers to people who are dealing with real issues. And we see today that so many men are committing suicide, are depressed, are living at home with mom and dad and people like, why? And I Guess my book is the story of why, what's happening and what are men. You know, how. What's the why and how do men feel about what's going on? Because I think we ignore it to our detriment. It's very poor, like you said, for society, for, for everything.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. You know, the, the suicide rates among men have skyrocketed, the depression rates. But, you know, men don't talk about that stuff, right? They don't organize, they don't have a rally, they don't create a voting bloc. You know, they just move on.

Because look what happened in this election. They did get a voting block because Elon Musk and J.D. vance were up there, young men were looking to those people. And I'm not saying, you know, if you're left or right. I'm just saying look at what's actually happening, right? They're looking at these men and they're saying, here are these, these men who are showing us kind of the way. They are not afraid of masculinity. They're out there. There was like they had in Madison Square Garden, I think it was Elon Musk and I think Trump, but there were a lot of men there and everybody was calling it a bro fest. But look, all the men were there. They were all organizing, and they're all looking for something like, better, how can we get better jobs, how can we organize? I think that is. Has been a problem. And you were saying men don't speak out. People think this, men do speak. Nobody wants to hear it. If the man tells a woman what he's thinking, he's getting a divorce, she's not going on a date. And, you know, if a man started crying about all his problems, do you really think a woman is. How many are going to lose?

Yeah, no, women, they don't care, okay? Like, they don't. They don't care. You know, women expect men to just deal with their struggles, win the game and show up with the prize, you know, which is the money or, you know, the support or whatever it is. And if you don't do that, you're not a man. And you're supposed to just like, suck it up, right? And deal with it. You know, women can come and, you know, they can cry, they can, they can complain, and it's just more acceptable, right? And I think men can deal with that. It's. It's okay. Like, that's the way men are wired, right? We're different creatures. Obviously, the part that gets bad is when there's just no appreciation for what men do and the contrary. You know, they just want to be like, appreciated and respected. That's it. You know, that's all they got to do. And they don't have to, like, complain about everything and cry about everything and bitch about everything. You know, they just want some peace and some respect. Right?

Yeah, that's exactly what I found in my book. I mean, in both books, it's like men are just looking for, number one, respect. So definitely, if you're a woman out there, I think the number one thing is respect. And you know what's really interesting is I've noticed more and more my husband runs a website and he's constantly sending me things from trad wives, they call them. I mean, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not a trad wife. I don't, you know, I don't know anything about it, but apparently.

So let me just tell the listeners about it. So there's this movement, and you see it on TikTok and Instagram and all the places, right, of the trad wife or tradcon wife. And these are women who are supposedly adopting traditional values and, you know, staying home and being the homemaker. And, you know, they say they love it. Right. Which may well be true. However, I will say, and I don't know if you're familiar with Aaron Clary, a mutual friend of ours is Rich Cooper. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him or not, but he's been on the show and he thinks a lot of that is fake. You know, he thinks the TradCon movement.

Is a lot of skeptical. I. I don't really know. I mean, I can't tell whether it's. They're doing it maybe to get some hits on Tick Tock or something, or.

Maybe they're just doing it to like pander to men and they want to catch a man that way. You know, I don't know.

I mean, a lot of the women have a man, so I don't know that they're pandering to men or anything. I mean, they honestly. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some may be honest, I don't really know.

It doesn't matter. But the movement's out there and it's a thing. So what were you going to say about it?

Well, I was just going to say at least some women are talking about to other women about how to have some respect for men, because that seems to be their basic message. But I don't think it has to Be any fake thing. I think men are just looking for some peace and quiet and a nice woman who likes them and is, you know, I mean, I know it sounds awful, but in this, this is awful. But here's the way I see it. Women are looking for this idealistic situation where there's a six foot plus man making, you know, all the money, this whole thing with a six pack and all that. And all a man is usually wanting is just some woman who might, might think of maybe helping him cook or making him some dinner or that maybe just likes him and might appreciate something he would do. I'm not saying that's all it is, but I'm just saying in general, I just think. And that is so hard to find right now. Like men tell me all the time, it's very, very difficult. Now. Women have their own problems. They're not finding anybody either. But I think. Have you ever read the book Erin Clary wrote, edited the book by Myron Gaines? Did you ever read it?

Yes, I read it. Yeah.

Yeah, I read that a million times. I actually.

It's a very short book.

Yeah, it's a very short book. And at first I looked at that book and I'm like, this is the craziest thing. You know, this is. And then I read it and I said, this is genius. He really, in those pages, explains exactly what is happening in the world. And even though people might look at that.

And by the way, the book is called Women Deserve Less. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, women deserve Less. And it's a very. And you know, I'm sure it doesn't sit well with women or whatever.

Does not sit well.

No. And I've watched that podcast, Fit and Fresh and I mean, it's a little.

It'S, it's out there, I agree, of course, but, but you know, that's the younger movement and that's, you know, younger people are much more base. Right. You know, than older people. So it's fine, you know, it's. It's just everything they do is like that. It's very, you know, it's very rough. Okay. But the interesting thing about it is why women need to pay attention to this stuff. And I will tell you, when I first got your book, I had my girlfriend at the time. It's not my girlfriend anymore, but at the time, listen to the book, the audio. And she said, you know what? It's, it's true. She's right. You know, she agreed with you. You know, I'd like you to talk just so we can give our viewers and listeners. Some context though. Talk about the book Men on Strike. You gave some great examples and just some great stories there. Just let's go back to that for a minute before we go on.

Yeah, Men strike is just about how men are operating out of marriage relationships and just it's basically become a situation where the incentives for men were so few and the demands are so much. And there's this, you know, almost like an economic situation where men are looking at this and they're saying, you know what? Marriage just isn't worth the gamble because I'm going to be gambling with my kids, my money. The government and the society devalues men and they also don't have anything in terms of like legal rights. Used to you were talking about how women didn't have any rights and in the old days men had what's called coverture over women. Women in a marriage, a man had coverture. He was responsible for the women and the kids. However, that responsibility also came with the fact that if his wife did anything, broke the law, he himself would have to pay and go to jail. So in some sense men were also in a, in a bad situation. Right.

If you're, it's kind of like having a minor child, you're responsible.

Yes. Which of course is. This is all, you know, good thing. This has been, you know, this is, it's been updated. But, but now if we actually look at it, I talk about in the book, there was a professor, law, law professor Michael Higdon, who talked about the fact that coverture is actually is held by the woman now. So women now hold all the rights in marriage. And I do think that is changing just a little bit. But when I wrote my book, it was like 80% of women were getting custody of the kids. Remember, alimony is only paid by 3% of women. It's mostly 97% of all alimony, which I think is antiquated. I mean when you're supposed to pay somebody the rest of your life because you made the mistake to marry a person you don't want to be with. And you know, you think about that and, and it's just that at any time the woman. I have had so many stories of men from kids who are 12 to, you know, maybe 15 years old. Getting there was an example I gave in my book. A 15 year old got pregnant by a 32 year old and the 32 year old woman got pregnant and that 15 year old had to pay child support.

Wait, wait, wait. The. Who was male, who was female in that story?

The female was 32 and she had sex with a 15 year old.

Wow.

So.

So even though she basically statutorily raped this 15 year old, the woman did. The woman is the rapist. Right. And the man has to pay child support.

His family had to pay child support. And not only that, but the state of. I believe he was in California. The state of California said that it was. Even though it was, that they agreed it was statutory rate, but they didn't care. They said he has to pay anyway. And at that point, when I wrote my book in 2013, there had never been a case where a boy, where somebody like a young, an underage boy had not had to pay. In every case they had had to pay child support. So you look at that and you're like, in what manner is a 32 year old woman less capable than a 15 year old boy? But that's the way they see it.

That's insanity. So.

And that's an extreme example, but there are many other examples that I give.

The 15 year old basically pays child support until he's 33. That's just insane. I mean, wow. But what's worse than that? Well, maybe not worse than that, but it's just egregious is when I see these court cases where, Helen, you know, it's estimated that 10 to 25% of children that men are raising are not their children. Right. They don't know that because only the woman is in control of the birth and the conception. Really knows. Okay. You know, these women have cheated and I will tell you that I have a story of an ex girlfriend who did exactly that and she was going to commit paternity fraud. She told me the story, you know, but she said that her husband at the time that she later divorced didn't look enough like the other guy. So she didn't think she could pull it off, if you can believe that. Right. So what happens though is it's bad enough that paternity fraud would occur. Right. But then the victim of the paternity fraud, the man who was raising someone else's child for all those years, has to pay child support after the marriage ends for a kid that's not even his. The courts have ruled that way many times. That is insane.

They, they have to. There is a certain period of time in some states and there's a really fabulous guy, Carnell Smith, that I interviewed and you can go on. I think it's carnellsmith.com it's just C A R N E L L. But Carnell Smith the same thing happened to him. He had a child, found out it wasn't his, and he was forced by the state of Georgia to continue to pay. But he fought all the way up to the Supreme Court to get that law overturned, and he managed to do it. And that's really the point of the work that I'm doing is to say, you know, there are many. You can stand up. I think many men feel that these things are just, you know, used to. I think men were just felt helpless or they would. That. That's really the crux of. Of, you know, we think women have this learned helplessness, whereas, oh, women are helpless, you know, or something, or people are acting like that. It's actually men and men have such learned helplessness, they don't even try to do anything. Because when I would talk to men, especially when I did my first book about these situations you're describing, they just be like, well, what could you do? And the anger and the frustration they have is so real and so damaging and so psychologically depressing for people, and it is outrageous. But I do think some of these things are changing. I think some of the laws are changing. One of the things that I really.

Do appreciate is the law is always the slowest thing to change, though. You know, it is.

The culture changes first. And that's why I think it's so important for us who care about men, all of us, whether men or women, it doesn't matter. I mean, everybody. Sometimes people get kind of annoyed. They see, you know, like I said, a woman coming out to speak up. But I think everybody who's concerned, I think it's so important because the way, like you said, culture runs downstream. For it's the. The culture changes first and then the politics, then the laws. So how do we change? We change it by being aware, making educated, and helping people understand what's really happening. And so that the laws can change. And one of the ways they've changed it is more and more men are fighting. They're fighting for custody of their kids in ways they used to just, you know, wouldn't do.

Yeah, right, exactly. Exactly. You know, here's the thing, though. I want women to understand that it's really important that we get this straightened out because both parties are losing. Okay? That's the thing, you know, to make any deal in life, right? It has to be a win, win deal or it's never going to work. You know, when you go into a business deal, when you buy a property, like both sides have to win or the other One's gonna go on strike, okay. They're just not going to do the deal, you know, and, and that's what's happening sadly with marriage. And this has such huge knock on effects for society and the economy and health and crime. I mean, you know, it's just so important that we get this straightened out. If women want a good man, this has got to come back in balance or, you know, men.

We also have to understand that we have not just for women, because everybody talks about, for women. I guess my goal here is to talk to men directly and just say, you know what, you yourself can stand up. It isn't just about women. I believe very strongly that men like they're autonomous beings and people deserve to live in a fair and egalitarian society. And if men and to like you said, it's not just feeling respected, it's going in places and say you go to college from every day of a man's life, from when you're a little boy and you don't see a male teacher to you don't have a dad. Remember, 43% of boys in this country are being raised by a single mom. Again, not to knock any single moms, I mean, great that they're doing a great job, a really good job or the best that they can. But the thing is, is when a boy doesn't have a father, Warren Farrell, and I think you had Warren Farrell on or you did a. One of the things I think he says is, you know, a boy not having a dad is like taking part of that boy's life away from him. You know, it is something that he doesn't have. And I think that we try to say that men don't, you know, boys don't, you know, need these fathers, but we know how important dads are. And I think when a boy goes through life, goes through the school system, go college and you don't see other men, you don't see those types of role models. You, you don't really understand one, how to have relationships, how to have boundaries, how to understand how the workforce, how things work, how to organize, how, you know, there's many things. But I do want to say that a lot of people dis the manosphere and say the manosphere is no good. Well, it depends what you look at is. We can look at anything online and it could be, you know, something very negative. But I think there are so many areas that are positive. Like there is a, a man that I interviewed, his name is Bradley Grunner and he has a Great place called the Male Space, which is on YouTube now. And you've got Aaron Clary, you know, who's wonderful, who's gotten great advice and great books and for, for men. And I think there are so many places that men can go. And the other thing I want to say is, like, male friendships. There's been such a big drop in men having friends. It's gone From, I believe, 3% of men in 1990 had no friends. 15% of men today have no friends. 15%. And men have sort of been. When we've driven this wedge, we don't have any male spaces. And so I just think it's so important to look at all of these issues. And I talk about all these things in both of my books, and I do get some tips for women in my new book. And it'll be. When it'll be out, probably three or four months. But it will give tips to women on some things that, yes, they can do to have a more successful relationship with men.

So men going on strike. I mean, you talk in your book about this movement called mgtow, and it's an acronym. It means Men Going Their Own Way. And, you know, many people have heard about that. Now, is it sort of like, sort of fight for this and women will. I, I know you talk about how men don't organize and they don't, you know, they don't have a parade that says, hey, this is wrong, what's going on in society. Right. Women will do that, though, maybe speak to that a little more. We alluded to it earlier. But can you.

About men not speaking up, you mean? Well, yeah.

And, and, and the MGTOW movement as well?

Yeah, well, men going their own way. I mean, a lot of men just. When I say opt out, it is men kind of going their own way. But a lot of those men have found happy lives. They have gone out. They don't have a woman, but they don't necessarily want one. They're basically out. They've found things. For example, the kind of work you're doing now, I'm going to assume, like, a lot of men might get into real estate investing. They might get into the stock market. They might get into crypto. They. They find ways where they don't have to interact too much. You know, they want to be their own boss. They want to, you know, they might own their own home. And they're not doing things to avoid women. They're just. They just don't want to be involved with a, you know, a potential situation where they're Controlled or basically don't have any rights and live in a marriage or a situation that they feel isn't going to be right for them. And I think a lot of men, even the men who are doing pretty well, have just decided, no, it really isn't worth it.

I know, but Helen, I know that's happening and I agree with you. It's happening, but it's terrible. Isn't this terrible?

You know, you know, is it terrible for the individual man to say that I'm happy and I'm out there? I don't really know. Is it terrible for society? Yes. If you're talking about the western society and you're talking about the crash of civilization, hopefully there'll be some men that are still interested in being married. And if we can turn this around, and I think it is, and here's what I want to say is actually the men who are college educated, you know, the college educated people are getting married more and more. So really what's happening is men who are making less and less money are left out in the cold. And I, and, and that's what a lot of men said to me, is that the average man is sort of laughed out in the cold. But if men are like, they have a college degree and a lot of women don't want a man without a college degree.

But here, let me, let me just speak to the problem. The colleges are mostly attended by women now. Men aren't going to college.

They don't go to college. And they're almost 60% now women. When I wrote my book, it was 55, 45 is now 60% of the colleges roughly are women, 40% men. Men are finding other things to do. One of my relatives, in fact, he's 22. And four years ago, rather than go to college, he went and got a welding degree. He's doing great. He, he's amazing.

And a lot of those blue collar trades are very lucrative. Those guys do make a lot of money, some of them, but women.

But here's the problem. The women don't want it. A lot of the women, sometimes they do. But a lot of women are looking at that like, oh, well, they're only a welder. And it's kind of like to me, I'd be like, oh, that's really cool. But not everybody feels that way. So if women only want a college educated man, that's going to be harder and harder to, to get. So I think one, women maybe need to not lower because I don't think it's a lower Expectation, I think, I don't know. To me that's a really, the trades are really cool jobs and. Yeah, yeah.

Well, most women don't feel that way. Okay. So. No, it's not, not most of them. But here's the thing, it's funny because, and I think, I think this is probably true. It's just sort of switched, right? The pendulum has swung. A long time ago I heard about something called centerfold syndrome, right? And the accusation was that men have such unrealistic expectations because, you know, they look at these beautiful women in magazines or in portrayed in advertising or whatever, you know, maybe in a centerfold actually. But I'm just saying in general, right? In marketing and media now that's not true anymore because the media definitely portrays mostly, I think, ugly people. Okay, Nowadays, right? We've seen these, these plus plus sized mannequins, you know, when you walk through them all, it's, it's ridiculous. But that's another discussion. But the funny thing is, you know, men were always accused of being the players, the cheaters, the ones with unrealistic expectations, right? Now that has flipped if you ask me. Women are the cheaters, the players and the ones with the unrealistic expectations. Now am I wrong? What do you think?

No, I think what your experience is, is women are trying to be the men they accused of being no good. So women are told in our society and it's, this is what, it's interesting from a psychological or sociological viewpoint because women are basically told to act like men now and men are rewarded if they act like women. So it's a real problem because men in general don't want to act like women. But they're told that the only thing, for example, we're told now that all skills need to be soft level skills. Soft level skills being you have to have empathy and you have to know how to talk to people and you have to know how to communicate.

Emotional intelligence.

Yes, emotional intelligence. And you think coming from a psychologist, but you know what? Emotional intelligence and people look at it and they think that in today's world, only women, any intelligence is only good if it's coming, if it's a female intelligence. And I think for men it's like what they are is toxic. Everyone is told they're toxic. So all the young men, if they act like guys, you're toxic. Women have these standards and they're always looking at men and being like, I only want this six, six foot, whatever man. They've got to be this certain way. Exactly what you were saying about this whole centerfold thing, whereas a man's just looking for somebody who might be nice. I mean, not always. I'm not saying that. Believe me. I meet men all the time who are very.

Yeah, I know. Look, we're making generalizations.

We're making generalizations. The generalizations hold true. If you actually look at the dating sites and you look at the literature, you see that only 80% of the men on the dating sites women rate is undateable. Remember, they're only. They're only looking. And people don't like this 2080 rule and try to dispute it, this, that, and the other thing, but it actually shows that. And maybe the dating apps, I really don't know. I don't use the dating apps, but.

Well, look, you know the nice things about having those apps available. One of the founders of OkCupid actually wrote a book about this. Right. And you probably know about this book. I read it a long time ago. And it's really interesting. The stats, you know, now we actually know how many times men have to approach to get a response, how many times they have to approach to get a date, you know, and the statistics are abysmal. Like, they're terrible. Why would any man use those apps? It's just demoralizing. Okay. And it just doesn't work for men. Right. So the companies, you know, the biggest one is. Is Matt, I think it's called match, that owns match.com and all the other. They own a bunch of others. I think the company is just called Match. You know, they're struggling. I mean, they are really struggling, these app companies. Their business is nowhere near where it used to be. So they're very concerned about it, as they should be, because the whole thing just isn't working for both sides.

Yeah, I think I actually read that more people are trying to meet somebody in person or trying to meet through a friend, or they don't want to meet strangers anymore. Because I think people are so afraid of what they don't really know. Like, you know, if you meet a stranger, it's just a lot harder. You don't know anything about their family. You don't. You know, I think people are more likely to want to meet somebody that they kind of know. Maybe it feels a little safer right now with everybody moving around. You don't really know who anybody is. So I think a lot of it is just. We don't have those networks anymore. Right? We don't have the families. We don't have the contacts. Apparently, guys don't have Any many friends of the men that do have friends? I was going to say, like they. I think that is one of the biggest things that I found is men seem so much happier when they have other male friends. And, you know, I think that is a big piece of what's missing is that male camaraderie in our society where men can get together and talk and aren't so isolated. Because I can't tell you how many people tell me they've got a son at home, 30 years old. He's home. He's just sort of depressed. He's not really, you know, maybe he's working a job, but he's not doing a whole lot. And you kind of like that is really is a. It's too bad. And a lot of it is partly psychological and partly. There's just no real support. A lot of men told me, and you can appreciate this, there's a lot of this has to do with risk. Young men now aren't willing to take the kinds of risks people used to take. And I don't know if you've ever read the work of Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the book the Anxious Generation. He's a social.

I've heard of him, but I haven't.

Yeah, he's around a lot. He said NYU had a number one best seller this year, the Anxious Generation. But he talks a lot about how risk taking has really dropped, particularly for young men. More young people are. They're what girls used to have, very low risk taking. And now he finds that both sexes don't want to take risks. Right. Men are becoming more like women and that they don't want to take a risk. So when you look at it, maybe men don't want to take a risk for the relationship or they don't want to take a risk even in the work you're doing. I would think that in real estate investment, for example, it's mostly made up.

Of men, but, oh, no question about it. I can tell you that our audience is like 70 male.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the reason is because men are willing, more willing to take a risk. But what do we do when those risk takers go farther and farther down with each generation that comes up? That's not a good thing because what is it that makes an entrepreneur? How do we make new discoveries? That's how many. I mean, there aren't any Elon Musk video on Musk or some of those people. But when you're actually just looking at who are the risk takers? If we teach men to, you know, sit home in the basement and not to take that risk. Many more men are afraid, and that.

Is a society will not advance if that is the case.

That is exactly right. And when you talk about fear, that is. That is a big thing. I think we need to teach both sexes because it's, you know, it's happening with both girls and boys, but particularly with boys. They're afraid to take that risk and a lot of them are ending up paralyzed and almost either doing nothing or taking a safe path that isn't to anyone's benefit.

Yeah. What would be the main couple of points you want to make before we wrap it up found in the book or in. In all of your research?

Helen, what I want to say first of all is men love women. That was the biggest thing that I found is every time I interview or talk to a woman, from my last book to this book, men really, really respect and like women. And I think that if a women could have a little bit more compassion and understanding for what men are dealing with. Yes, that. But that's a big ask. But I would say my main message is to men, and it is to get a microphone. The biggest thing is don't sit back and don't and don't, you know, just say, my voice isn't going to be heard. Your voice has to be heard in this. This is your fight. You know, I mean, a lot of us are right there with you, but it is your fight. And do not back down. Go forward and don't let people tell you you're toxic. Search out male friends, and if you're unhappy, there are places that you can reach out. And I think that just finding people who respect you and like you and finding ways to make it in the world, and I think all of those things are important.

You mentioned before about the lack of male spaces because, you know, it's literally illegal to have a men's only.

It's illegal, Right?

Right. Yeah, right.

It is, yes.

The funny thing is when women make a group, men don't try to break into it. Like, women will try to break into the men's group, but women, Men don't try to break.

Well, do you know that of the million Boy Scouts that are out there, 196, 000 Boy Scouts are girl now.

They're just scouts.

Yeah, they're just scouts. I'm like. But boys aren't allowed to join the Girl Scouts. Yeah. The thing is, we go on and on about how men don't have any friends or this or that, but they've done away with all male spaces where anybody can meet. There's no male. There used to be male lodges. Those. Everybody just looks at you like you're some kind of a just aberration if you've got any kind of male space. And people go along with this. When you look at the polls, they find that most people think women should have their spaces. And some people, mostly Republican, believe men should have some spaces. But most people are really, you know, mostly think girls should have their spaces or women. But men also need their spaces. And I think that these are things that we could work on. And honestly some of them may be governmental and legal aspects that we really need to focus on in society. The other thing I want to say is I used to not really be big on single sex schools, but of all the men I talked to, which was again a huge sample, but the men I talked to who went to a single sex school said it was the best thing that ever happened to them. They understood what it was to be a man. They understood boundaries, they, they were around other men and they. And it really helped them to relate to women and to have better relationships.

Yeah, that's very interesting. Do you have any advice for men about, you know, any hobbies they should take up or, you know, where they can have that camaraderie with other men?

A lot of men actually I talked to are just going around and they're doing pickup basketball, pickup pickleball. I know somebody was talking about their son and he's a pilot and he goes around and he, he, he will. There's a lot of these pickup games where you can just register and go. You can find people there. A lot of men tell me they really enjoy the gym. I see lots of men having conversations. I've even seen men fighting it out at the gym. Like they'll go and I mean, but it's kind of interesting. They'll be like really upset about something and talking to their friend and then doing this squats. And I think the best way to help yourself when you're down is to have, you know, like a friend. Because a lot of people mention going to the gym to solve a problem, but it didn't seem to be that big of a help. But hobbies. A lot of men really do enjoy the gym. A lot of men are, if you notice, they, they play golf, but golf is like a huge, like, I think that's seems to be really fun. A lot of men fish if they like solitary activities or, you know, I think there are so many hobbies and things that men do. Now, I'm sure there's places online that you could go to find other men that you can do things with. And I think the big thing is don't be afraid of it. Don't be like when people say like, oh, you know, if you have a girlfriend, they get angry if you've got a bunch of friends, but you know, unless the friend's dangerous and like or something. I think it's great for men to have other male friends and to be doing things with them. And I think that, and to encourage, like if you have a son or brother, anybody, encourage men to, to be in groups together. I think that definitely helps.

Helen Smith, thank you so much for joining us. I would highly recommend Helen's book for men and women of all ages. Parents, brothers, sisters, spouses, boyfriends, girlfriends. You all need to read her book, Men on Strike. It is so important because if the men are on strike and the men aren't approaching and the men aren't making the first move, not much is going to happen and society is going to suffer because of this. Birth rates plummeting, marriage rates plummeting, depression rates skyrocketing, suicide rates skyrocketing. This is important stuff, Helen. People can find the book in all the usual places. Your new book is coming out soon and they can find that one in all the usual places. Do you have a social media handle or anything you'd like to share, People?

You should just reach me through Facebook. You can message me, you can get on my side. I have a public side. It's just Helen Smith, Ph.D. at Facebook. You can get on there and I'll usually answer if you have a question or concern. Yeah, and you can just find my books. The new one doesn't come out for a few months, but Men on Strike is available and then Amazon, you can get, you can pre order the new book, which is his side and it's should be out three to four months.

So I can't wait to get it. I can't wait to get it. I'll pre order it now. Helen Smith, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for doing your important work.

Thank you so much, Jason. You have a wonderful day.

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