2370: Body Language, Intuition and Lie Detection in Business with David Jaison

Welcome to the show. This is Jason Hartman, your host. And every 10th episode we do something kind of special, kind of different. What we do is we go off topic. So regardless of which show it is on the Hartman Media Network, whether it be one of the financial shows, economics, real estate, investing, travel, longevity, all of the other topics that we have, every 10th episode we go off topic and we explore something of general interest, something of general life, success, value. And so many of our listeners around the world in 164 countries have absolutely loved our 10th episode shows. So that's what we're going to do today and let's go ahead and get to our guest with a special 10th episode show. And of course, on the next episode, we'll be back to our regular programming. Here we go.

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Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

It is my pleasure to welcome David Jason to the show. Yes, you heard that right. Although it's spelled differently than my name, his last name is also Jason. He is a mentalist and an expert in detecting lies. We all want to know if someone we're dealing with is being tried truthful. So we're going to talk about that and how to negotiate the best deal you can in all different circumstances of life. David, welcome. How are you?

I'm good. Jason, how are you?

Good, good. It's good to have you. And you're coming to us from Jacksonville, Florida, and we are going to start off with a little interesting demonstration. This is visual. Some people will be audio only, so let's make sure we explain it to them so they can visualize what we're doing if they're listening on audio only. But yeah, it's all yours.

Absolutely, Jason. And before we dive into it, just a little background into what we're going to experience over here. So, yes, we're going to talk about lie detection later on and maybe some negotiation skills and how some of these skills are transferable. But we're also going to talk about trusting your instinct because. And you know this from making deal after deal after deal, you have all the science, you have all the data that indicates one thing, but then at the end of the day, you get a bad vibe. Something tells you don't sign. And that's. This is a survival mechanism that we've developed over generations to keep us alive. So this is going to deal more with your instincts because you're extremely successful. And it's amazing since you started when you were 19 years old.

I can only imagine intuition is a powerful tool. Usually it's more developed in women than men, but we all have it. So let's see how we can use it and also trust it.

Yes. So, Jason, you look down here, you recognize at least four out of these five stocks because these are the hottest trending stocks from the last couple of weeks. We have Super Micro Computer. We have Tesla, Nvidia, Palantir and Robinhood, right?

Yep.

And there's an envelope over here for anybody who's not watching. There's an envelope. You can see it the whole time in here. Inside is something that I wrote down, prepared for you. And I have five piles, five little markers, cards. They're numbered one through five. Okay, Now, Jason, I'm going to ask you in a moment to rank these stocks. And you don't have. What's that?

Okay.

And you don't have to rank them based on the value. If you know the valuation of each one, it's not. You don't have to be that precise. Just in your head, how would you rank them from favorite to least favorite or from greatest to not greatest, or.

In other words, if I was going to invest in these stocks.

Right, if you were going to invest or if you want to just have fun and just. You like Nvidia's logo, right?

Yeah.

Okay, whatever. Whatever speaks to you. But I'm going to let you know that on the back of these rankings are something related to a lot of these stocks here. So start with one. Who would you rank number one?

First, I want to tell the listeners and viewers we did not rehearse this. I had no idea what was coming. The only thing I saw is David showed me this screen with these company logos on it and the question mark envelope and the number one. That's all I saw. I didn't Know what he was going to do at all until right now. Okay, so my ranking is. I would rank Nvidia number one.

Okay. So hold on one second. I'm going to. I'm going to put that one over here for a second. Before we continue, though, I wanted to ask you a very important question. Outside of these five stocks, or of course you're not limited.

Yeah.

But is there any one stock that right now you've been contemplating in your head maybe the last couple of weeks?

Well, I've been. I mean, I think about all of them except the fifth one or. Well, the one I don't know, really know, not familiar with.

Okay, but what if we expanded this. Outside of these five, is there any stock in the world, any company that you're interested in right now that you've been thinking about?

Sure. There are lots of companies I hear about in the news and think about. Yeah.

Which one would you say right now?

Which one would you think that's not on the board?

Right.

Microstrategy.

Okay.

Now called strategy.

Okay, now, you said Nvidia would be number one. So now who would you rank as number two here?

Palantir.

Palantir. Okay. And then who would you rank as number three?

Tesla.

Tesla. I just bought a Tesla.

Yep.

Who would you rank as number four?

Robin Hood.

Robin Hood. And then that would leave super microcomputer number five. I. Now, of course, I want to make sure that you feel in complete control here. So if you did want to, for some reason, switch one of these for another, you're completely. You have free range here.

Okay.

Otherwise, you know, that super Michael could.

Have felt like almost like I picked them. They're good.

You do?

Yeah.

Okay, so here's what's interesting, Jason, because all I did was mention that there's something on the back of these related to these stocks. You had no idea what it was. Something deep down inside, something instinctively told you to rank Nvidia number one, to rank Palanter number two, and so on and so forth.

Yep.

What if I told you on the back of each one of these was the stock ticker for each one of these stocks?

Oh, wow.

And you successfully ranked Nvidia with its ticker.

Yeah, but keep going.

And that's. That's Palantir.

All right.

And that's Robinhood, and that's Tesla, and that's Super Microcomputer. Now, of course, this is only 1 in 120, but if you consider what's 1 in 120, that means that less than 1% of the population would actually succeed in doing this.

Yeah. I mean, I think everybody would have said in video number one. Right. Because that's obviously a very well known stock and. Sure. And you know, maybe they would have put Tesla's number two. I think Palantir is less well known even though their stock has been doing great. So. Yeah, it's amazing. That's amazing. Okay, keep going.

And the envelope, Remember the envelope that's been here from before we started? We spoke about it, we called attention to it.

Yeah.

I said inside was a message.

Right. This is going to blow my mind.

This, this might be very interesting because I asked you to what stock you would be thinking about outside of these.

Yeah. No way. That's impossible. That is. It says microstrategy.

And again, we didn't speak beforehand about this whatsoever. You had no idea this was happening?

No, I am.

No, no idea that was going to happen.

You know, the only, the only way that could have been done is that you, you played a trick with the video, which I, I don't even know how you do that. But anything's possible, right?

Of course. Anything is possible. Of course. You know, you're, you're gonna think about this and, and your brain wants to come with some sort of a resolution, you know, in your head to, to make sense of this. I understand that, but although I could assure you there's no camera tricks. That's.

And by the way, you know, if you're following my social media or something, I haven't posted anything about any of this stuff that, that, you know, would have clued you in.

And again, I like to do something like this specifically with successful people because it, you, you really do have to rely on your intuition more than the regular person.

I think it's your intuition. You're intuiting what my picks would have been somehow combination. It's amazing. How do you do that?

So I'm actually, again, I am working. I come from, again, my, my background has been more structured in performing and entertaining. But as I've been learning a lot of different skills that I bring to my performances. One of them specifically is what your listeners and subscribers might be interested in is reading body language, specifically how to detect if somebody's lying or if they're withholding information. And I'm working now with a couple of attorneys and lawyer friends of mine. We're working on a program. So I'm going to be able to teach this skill and as a skills workshop a little bit further on down the line. But we could definitely talk about Some very basic ideas about how the brain works and how we respond to certain things and the history behind all of this. If you wanted to talk about that.

Yeah, definitely. I would love to know how to do what you just did. That's amazing.

And also, full disclosure. Not everybody will end up getting to that level from. From learning this stuff. Everybody's gonna learn, you know, at different paces and learn different skills. And some skills are not necessarily 100% teachable, but we're gonna get somewhere in this specific program. But what's interesting is, you know, we get asked a lot, especially, you know, you're in a deposition, litigation, talking to a witness. Right. How do you know somebody's lying? How do you know somebody's withholding information? What more could we get from them? Same thing.

I think the first principle of that is you have to assume they are lying.

But assume everybody lies. Yes. I forget what the average number is, but I think there's an average number that everybody tells. I don't know if it's four or five lies a day or an hour. There's some, like, crazy stat there. You're getting lied to every single day by people.

Yeah.

100 small lies, big lies. But the small lies are the ones that all day.

Yeah. Wow.

Or exaggerations, which is a form of lying.

Yeah. Or omissions.

Omission. 100%. And those are harder to detect than an outright lie. Obviously. You know, if somebody's just omitting something, then they're telling you something that's truthful. But this is what's interesting. And we go back, we're going to talk about how this science even came about. And one of the pioneers of modern times, Joe Navarro, worked with the FBI. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's, like, the leading expert right now in body language.

Okay.

And his. He started this in the beginning. They were interviewing some suspects. There was a murder that happened, and there was this one suspect that they were interviewing. This is an FBI interrogation, and he was considered at the time a minor suspect. And in the interview process, Joe was asking questions. If you would have committed the crime, would you have used a gun? If you had committed the crime, would you have used a knife? Would you have used an axe? Would you have used an ice pick or a pickaxe? I forget what the weapon it was. Exactly. But each time he was asking the question, when he mentioned the pickaxe, the suspect's eyes kind of went down, and his whole, you know, body changed slightly.

And they never Released, indicating that it was the pickaxe. Right. That's what he did.

It was the pickaxe that the FBI at the time, they didn't release to the public the weapon that was used. So nobody knew it was the pickaxe. So they were just randomly asking these questions, and they saw. He saw that his eyes shifted downward as he was thinking about the pickaxe. And that clued them in. And then they started pressing harder, and it ended up that he went from being a minor suspect to admitting to the crime. And that was like the beginning.

This is why you take the fifth and have a lawyer, folks. Yes. Do not answer questions for the cops.

That is solid advice. It doesn't change.

And I would say, even if you're not guilty, by the way, because we've all heard the stories of, you know, people that were not guilty, that no.

Words get misconstrued, taken out of context. Always they're looking. But anyways, yeah, so that was. That was like the. The beginning of learning body language and looking for these incongruencies or inconsistencies between your words and your actions. And then before this, Dr. Ekman, Paul Ekman, in the 60s, he started studying this. And this was based on the premise Darwin all those years back. His theory was that facial expressions, emotions are universal. Right. So everybody in all different cultures would react the same to, you know, some sort of an emotion. And there was a lot of arguments back and forth over the years. And then Dr. Ekman came and he proved it scientifically through a lot of studies. The. The facial expressions.

Sure, sure. So, you know, the. The tongue can lie, but the body will betray you because it acts instinctively and tells the truth. Right?

The body will betray you. Yes. And there's no, like, one single body cue that will betray you. But you take a context, clues, and then you have your baseline. And so what happens is when your. Your analytical part of your brain, the. The neocortex, that's where you do all of your decision making and your analyzing, and that's where you could come up with the lies.

Yeah. Okay. Well, we all understand the principle, and we all understand there is something to body language. I think everybody believes that, of course.

Yes.

But tell us how we can use this, like maybe a couple of specific body language things, you know, movements that betray a person, that. Where we can analyze them, you know, reliable things. Because, you know, sometimes body language can mean two things. Right. You know, if you. If you cross your arms, it, you know, could just mean you're cold. Right.

So it's going to be hard to go through it, like, visually. But if you. When you break it down, there are six facial expressions of emotions. Okay. There's. There's surprise, there's happiness, there's sadness, there's fear, anger and disgust. Those are the most widely studied expressions.

Got it.

And in those expressions, there's facial expression, there's micro expressions, and then there's macro expressions. Right. The macro expressions, they last a little bit longer.

The.

The micro expression is called the micro expression. It's like an instant. It's like a split second.

Right.

And one of the challenges we have in Western society specifically is that we're from our society etiquette. We don't stare at people when we speak. Right. We're taught to. We're uncomfortable keeping a gaze. So when you're looking for these expressions, you might miss them unless you're recording it and you watch it later, which is a lot of times in some of these interviews, how they catch them or you have to really be in tune with what you're looking for and you have to look for these expressions.

Yeah. And there, of course, was a TV series built around micro expressions.

Lie to me.

Lie to Me. Yeah, right. I remember seeing a couple of those episodes. Yeah.

Highly recommend that show, by the way, if you're interested in this. Again, that's based on the work of Dr. Ekman.

Right. Lie to Me is the name.

Great show. There's an example. I mean, there's a lot of examples we could talk about, but it's the expression and the words you want, you look. And we said you're looking for those inconsistencies. So somebody might be. If you ask them a yes or a no question. Right. The answer comes out. If you ask me a yes or no question and I'm not lying, my response is just going to be. It should just be a yes or a no. If I start repeating your question or I start giving you like a whole story to explain how it's a no, that's a red flag.

Mm. Right.

When. When somebody's nervous and they're coming up with a story in their head, you should be able to see if. When they're talking to you, if they're. If they're recall, you could. You could see it in their body language, if they're pausing and looking for words or if they're pulling it from their own experiences. There's a difference.

Like in the study of, you know, nlp, neuro linguistic programming, they talk about the eye movements. Right. And you know, that Goes way back to Richard Bandler and John Grinder, I think, were their names. They wrote this famous, well, slightly famous book, I guess, called Frogs into Princes. And, you know, they, they were the ones that sort of figured out this eye movement thing. Like, you know, if you look one and I can't remember which way it is, but, you know, if you look up one way, you're remembering and recalling. If you look up the other way, you're constructing, which means you're making it up, right? Yes. So I just think that's really interesting. I don't know how to do it, but I guess it's true, you know.

I don't know, but it's a combination. So it's a combination of the facial expressions because. And you said it before, right? Your emotions don't lie. The limbic system or doesn't lie as well. You could, of course, if you're an actor and you're really. And you really rehearse, then you can.

You can rehearse how to lie. Right? Right.

But most people can't. And when we introduce this emotion of surprise, surprise is an interesting emotion because the surprise, it quickly transfers into another emotion based on what the implications of the surprise is. Right. If somebody surprises you with a gift, it makes you feel good. You're gonna. Then once you realize what the surprise is, then it converts into happiness or delight. But if the surprise is something that's negative to you, it could then go into fear, it could go into anger or disgust. And these are all the micro expressions that you would see. So if you're, let's say you're sitting across on a negotiation table, you just ask a question that takes somebody you want to, you want to catch them off guard and you want to confuse them to get a real, A real emotional response.

Right.

You want to, you want to try to find questions and prepare questions that are going to be hard to be rehearsed. And then when they're not rehearsed, that's when the body is going to give away what's really going on. So they, they're going to struggle with the answer. But more importantly, you're going to see. You'll be able to see the expressions once you study them. You'll be able to see, is this something that they're saying when they believe in it for real?

Right.

But that's all based on one recognizing the expressions, learning the expressions. And there's, there's programs out there that you could learn how to read the facial expressions and also how to read the body Language and the body language, how you're postured, if you're, you know, when you take up more in front of you, that's confidence. When you cower over like this or your hands are, you know, not shown, that's, that's, that's not being confident.

Right.

That's insecurity.

So in other words, confidence would show that the answer is likely to be true. And towering and, you know, decreasing your body space would be. The answer's maybe false.

I would feel more confident with that, yes. And again, it's all, every situation, there's, there's baseline, you know, also based on the conversations that you've had, but also context. But yes, more, more, more likely when you see those, when those behaviors, when the body doesn't match what the, what the brain is saying or conveying, that's a red flag. And that, you know, invites you to maybe poke more in that area. Or that could be a red flag that. Wait a second.

The thing I've heard about this, by the way, is I, I did interview a guy about this years ago, like, I can't remember. But is that people take this stuff out of context. You know, if they know how to do this, they make the wrong interpretations because they, they don't establish a baseline of the. The witness, if you will. Right, right. And that's what, by the way, you know, my ex girlfriend, a former boyfriend of hers, was a lie detector expert, and he had a company that did like lie detector tests. Right. And so you're talking about polygraphs. Yeah, well, that's what I call a lie detector, but yes, polygraph. And so one day I asked if I could do the test. Right. Because I was in the office and I said, hey, put me on that thing. I want to see how it goes. And the first questions are these kind of like inert questions that just establish the baseline of how you are, whether. Whether you're really reactive or not. And so what's your name?

Where'd you go to high school? Where'd you grow up?

Probably not going to lie about. Right. So they can establish the baseline, and that gives you the context. Yes. Right. Yeah. Okay, good point.

Obviously, if somebody comes in there, they're nervous to begin with, they might just be a nervous person. See the demeanor shift. When you see those subtle changes in the behavior, that's when again, you start raising, raising awareness. And I'm going to say this, this is. At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. Right. And that's, that's as true today as Ever before. You're. Again, that. That whole limbic response, that emotional response, it's. It's very hard to hide and fake. If somebody comes up to you, right, and prepared a meal and said, hey, Jason, I just prepared this, you know, the steak, you know, how is it? And you take a bite out of it. If it's delicious, it's going to be delicious. If it's not, you could say, this is amazing. But you're going to have an instant reaction to that first bite. You're not going to be able. Your face is going to give it away.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. So I know these two topics are tied together. We've talked so far about truth detection or lie detection, but how do we use this in negotiation?

Well, a very simple. Is that your best deal?

Oh, okay, got it.

How's that? Yeah, that could tell you a lot. What's your bottom line?

Okay. Right.

So it's.

It.

It's not. It's about asking the right questions, but then looking in clues in the response.

Sure. Okay.

Obviously you also did your research anyway, so you, you know, whatever you, whatever your research was to get you to that point. But when you hit them with the hard question, that's where you know, what's your. What's your top line? What's your budget? That's where you could start. You could start feeling around if there's really. If that's. Is that really a hard number? Is there room for negotiation or. But that's again, part of reading the whole situation.

David, one of the big problems with this stuff is even if we learn it right, another big problem is that so many of our meetings and negotiations are not in person anymore. So this is harder to use on, say, a zoom meeting like we're on now. Right. It's better in person and we just don't meet in person as much as people as we used to. Right.

Well, what's interesting, you're right in that sense. That. Yeah. That in person. I felt that way when I was performing. When I started performing full time, it was few months before COVID hit and I thought I was done for it again. My wife suggested I learned how to do it virtually. My instincts said she's probably right. And I was. This wasn't really a platform and a medium that performers were using at the time, but I figured it out, had to shift a little bit, a couple of things, did a couple of test runs, and then I ended up doing 100 shows on virtual platforms because I went with it. There are advantages to seeing somebody's face up close on your screen as well. So if you wanted to just look at the facial expressions micro and the macro expressions, there's no better format than a screen. And there's, you know, you could put programs into your, into your platforms to freeze a screen, to pause to. You could have somebody right next to you rewinding, watching, and you could be doing this in real time. So there's a lot of advantages that there are afforded to by doing this virtually as well.

Okay. Okay.

Because again, the facial expressions, those are very hard to lie. Those are very, those are very hard to hide.

Right, right. But it is harder on a virtual type of system. And certainly can you do any of this with just voice only, like if you're just on a phone call and not seeing the person?

So there might be. And I'm still learning a lot more about this, especially because now I want to prepare to teach. So I'm, I'm still learning a lot. There might be, I don't know about that, but I mean, you could hear breaks in the cadence and how they're speaking.

Right, right.

There's telltale signs for that when somebody pauses or isn't sure of themselves, just for sure. But I don't know if there's anything in the actual, you know, pitch or anything.

Yeah, okay. Okay, good.

But I would imagine there is. And I'm going to keep exploring this and hopefully one day I'm going to have this skills workshop that's going to be developed.

David, anything else you'd like to share? Any question I didn't ask you or just whatever you want our audience to.

Know, I would just say one, this is one component of what I do as a performer, mostly I do is entertainment. So this is a new field for me. I'm very excited to be working on this and I'm hoping again to have this skills workshop developed in the next, you know, six to nine months. And we're going to be rolling it out to, specifically to law firms. And I've also, I have a couple of friends that are in the sheriff's office and they think it's very interesting. They told me that a couple of years back they had somebody that came in to speak from the FBI. But there's definitely a demand for this. But I would again tell to tell your listeners, at the end of the day, you're making, you know, million dollar decisions. You're a lot of it is going to come back down to those instincts that we spoke to, spoke about before. And I would just say, you want to trust your instincts. If something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right. That's what history has shown us. And there's a really another good book I would strongly recommend. It's by Dan Schilling. It's called the Power. It's called the Power of Awareness, I think, but it's by Dan Schilling, you know, the power of awareness. And he talks about his time doing, you know, spy work for the CIA, but also learning to trust the instincts because that was really life or death. And he really explored that.

Excellent points, David.

Give out your website My website is David Jason. My name J A I S O N.com DavidJason.com and I would love to talk to anybody that's planning a conference or retreat or any type of event if they want, team building, morale boosting, a trade show. I customize all of my experiences to your brand and to your company. So I appreciate your time. Jason.

Excellent. David Jason, thanks for joining us.

Thank you so much.

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