290: Communicating & Talking To Yourself Like a Buddhist with Cynthia Kane

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Welcome to the show. This is Jason Hartman, your host and every 10th episode we do something kind of special, kind of different. We what we do is we go off topic. So regardless of which show it is on the Hartman Media Network, whether it be one of the financial shows, economics, real estate, investing, travel, longevity, all of the other topics that we have, every 10th episode we go off topic and we explore something of general interest, something of general life, success, value. And so many of our listeners around the world in 164 countries have absolutely loved our 10th episode shows. So that's what we're gonna do today and let's go ahead and get to our guest with a special 10th episode show. And of course on the next episode we'll be back to our regular programming. Here we go. It's my pleasure to welcome Cynthia Cain. She is the best selling author of two great books, how to Communicate Like a Buddhist and her new book, Talk to yourself like a 5 mindful tools to Silence Negative Self Talk. Cynthia, welcome. How are you?

I'm doing well, thank you for asking. I'm really excited to be here and talking to you today.

Yeah, good to have you on. And this is, this is a great topic and you're coming to us from Washington D.C. is that correct?

That is right.

I guess. Today we'll look at the external nature of communication and also the internal nature of communication. Since it's maybe more obvious. Let's start with the external and go internal after that. Externally speaking, how would one communicate like a Buddhist and how would that make.

Them more effective to communicate like a Buddhist? They speak kindly, honestly, with compassion, they don't exaggerate, they don't gossip and they use helpful language. So the majority of the time one is speaking, others can actually hear and understand. So they're very conscious, concise and clear and really understanding what their responsibility is within a communication so that their words, what they say, they're not responsible for how the other person interprets or reacts to them.

When people don't communicate clearly and they don't Speak kindly and helpfully. That really presents a roadblock in the communication process, doesn't it? Because the other person, they might put up walls or they might ignore. I mean, there's all sorts of things that go on in the other person's mind, right?

Yeah, for certain. Often what happens is in communication, there's a tendency to become very defensive, especially when what's coming out of the other person's mouth feels like an attack or feels like a judgment. And that's one of the pieces with communicating like a Buddhist, is that there's no judgment attached to the language that you're using. So there's no evaluation. It really is coming from, you know, the direct experience with really the intention to be helpful and not hurtful. And so a lot of times when having, you know, back and forth, it's very easy to feel attacked or criticized or judged. And this is what brings our defenses out. And we default back to getting passive aggressive, overreacting, lashing out, or sometimes, you know, people shut down and kind of stomp away.

Right. And maybe the oddest paradox here is that the closer and more important the person is in our life, the more susceptible are to that defensiveness and all of that, aren't we?

It's true. There is a tendency to speak to those we love the most in kind of the most hurtful ways, when really what we want to do is we want to be in those moments and see the other person with, you know, love and care and respect, that the person in front of us is someone we want to support and we want to help. And that the keeping, really the integrity of the conversation intact is what becomes the priority, which is if the conversation is veering towards something that is hurtful or it's no longer helpful, then the role is really to reset the conversation so that it becomes that. Or, you know, to leave the conversation so that it keeps that integrity.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I sort of wonder why that part of human nature exists. I mean, and I'm. I'm certainly guilty of it too, from time to time where I'll be nicer to a stranger than a loved one, you know, and I just. I kind of don't understand why we do that. I know we all do it, but. Any thoughts on that?

Well, I think it has a lot to do with the sense that the person will always be there or that there's almost a taking for granted for in those situations that the person that we care for or families will just unconditionally love us. And so I Think because of that, there's a safety in lashing out, and there's a safety in expressing ourselves in ways that we wouldn't normally, you know, in a work environment or to people that we're just meeting. And we're able to kind of let go and let our guard down. Although oftentimes what happens is by doing that, it ends up poisoning a little bit the relationship, because it then becomes difficult for that, you know, one instance to be forgotten, and then it becomes a cycle.

Yeah, that's true. Good point. So there's mindful listening. Listen to ourselves, listen to others. Expand on that a little bit, if you would.

So to communicate like a Buddhist, you're really using the elements of right speech in Buddhism. And the elements of right speech are to tell the truth, don't exaggerate, don't gossip, and use helpful language. But to be able to actually do that. Right. It's all really wonderful in theory, to be honest.

Yeah, sounds easy. That's what she said on the podcast. I'll just go out and do that. Right?

Yeah. So it's actually, how do you actually do this? So for me, when I first learned the elements of right speech, I thought, okay, great, these are guidelines I can follow. But how does this actually happen? So that's where the practice of communication is born. There's a practice, there's a process and a method that you use to be able to speak aligned with the elements of right speech. And that is really to listen to yourself, to listen to others, to speak consciously, clearly, and concisely, to use silence as a part of speech in a way that brings intimacy and connection, and then meditation. And so it's the process of going inward and really starting to pay attention to how we connect with ourselves, how we speak to ourselves, how we speak to ourselves while we're in conversation with other people, even, and learning how to kind of move out of speaking to ourselves in a hurtful way so that we can then speak to others in a kind, honest, and helpful way. Right. So we start there with the listening to yourself. And then you move into how to actually be present with others and be open, even in those moments where you disagree and, you know, even in those really heated discussions where all you want to do is lash out or shut down, how do you actually stay in those conversations and have them be productive and come to resolve potentially. And then with silence, it's about using it for connection and intimacy and to rebalance the conversation to recenter and come back to that purpose of it being kind, honest, and helpful. And then meditation is really the glue that holds it all together in the sense that meditation teaches you really how to respond instead of react. Right. And how to be kind to yourself. But it's the formal practice of what I call. I call this intentional communication. And so meditation is really the formal practice of that because how. How you are in meditation is actually how you are in conversation.

Talk to us a little bit more about the silence aspect. I find that to be particularly interesting. How do you communicate with silence?

So now, you know, if you think about how silence is used, it's really used to punish, to shame, can be used to kind of ignore. Right. To really disconnect and push others away. It can be used to assert authority. You know, a lot of people that I work with, within company settings, silence is often used as a tool to promote discomfort or to have the other person kind of move over to the other person's side of thinking, that type of use of silence. And so instead, what we want to do is we want to use the silence to create more connection. And so what that means is looking for ways to pause during your conversations so that you're really going inward and knowing if you're speaking in a way that the other person can hear you, if you're speaking in a way that is aligned with the elements of right speech and choosing that path to do so. It's in those heated moments causing. Getting very quiet so that you can choose how you want really the rest of the conversation to go. And then it's in the moments that are really joyful and wonderful, taking that time to pause and to get quiet so that you can get closer and you can choose to share and to open up. So that's one way of using silence is really bringing in the pause into the conversation. And the other is so that you can, again, like I mentioned before, it's really recentering you, so it's bringing you back into the present moment so that you can decide in that moment to really, you know, be kind and be respectful.

Right. So it. The pause in that respect is used to remind ourselves what we're doing so we're not just going off in a direction without being mindful about it.

Right, Right. And it's also. It's that pause itself. It's a way to break the flow of the conversation sometimes as well. Right. So if something isn't going in, the most wonderful way to be able to step back, you know, even to say, I need a minute. I need to take a minute to get my thoughts together. It kind of de escalates the situation.

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. And very interesting. Good stuff. Can you share any, like an example of any of these? Maybe one conversation that isn't going right and maybe one that is, you know, like just so people can compare them. I know I may be putting you on the spot with that, but if you can think of anything, or maybe it's an example from the book, I don't know.

I mean, you can take a small everyday example of going and ordering a coffee and the person making the coffee maybe gets the order wrong. So you could react right instantaneously and just blurt out, this isn't what I ordered. You know, I'm late right now, I have to be getting somewhere. Could you redo this for me, please? Or the opposite would be, you know, in that instance, you're reacting right away, right? So you're not really paying attention at all to how your language is being used. And it's really coming from a place of judgment and blame. Because most of our gut reactions, they're coming from a place of defensiveness. When we feel uncomfortable, when we feel fearful, when we feel threatened. That's why we defend ourselves in this way. So that's why we react so quickly. In the opposite way would be for the same situation to happen and there actually would be, you know, a pause. And that's when you would go inward and you would assess the situation, right? You'd understand that this person isn't trying to make you late, that this person wasn't trying to mess up the order. Right? And so really all that happened was you got the wrong drink. And what you really need is get the right drink. So then your interaction would be more along the lines of it looks like you gave me a decaf soy latte when I really wanted a decaf almond latte. You know, I know that wasn't your intention. Would you be able to remake this for me now?

I just can't help but think first world problems when you're talking about this. But you know, yeah, it's a fair example. First world problems, Right.

Example though the reason why I highlight it is because it really is these small day to day conversations that lead to those bigger conversations, right. That lead to people having overreactions and, you know, other people feeling the need to defend themselves and then happen constantly.

And it becomes, I guess there's a couple elements to that that are important. Number one, it becomes a habit. If we keep doing this, we sort of rationalize and support and continue our own bad behavior, right? That's one part, right? But the other part is that it has that processional effect. You know, you're throwing the. The stone into the pond and into the world, and, you know, the whole world becomes that way because then that person treats the next conversation differently. And that, you know, it's amazing how procession works, right? We affect hundreds and thousands of people with our actions. It's. It's truly incredible, you know, to think about that. It really is.

It's the way that I see it, it only takes one person to change the conversation because the more you interact differently, the more people begin to notice and the more people actually stop to think about how they're interacting. This situation, you could take a more intimate example or a personal relationship would, you know, would be maybe a boyfriend and girlfriend or people in partnership. And one person is constantly on the phone all the time, and it really bothers the other person. And anytime they're on the phone, one of them just overreacts and just says, I hate it when you're on the phone. You know, I feel like you don't care about me and you don't see me and we don't talk anymore. And all you do is spend your time on the phone and it just. That kind of language, right? And then the other person, because of that can feel completely attacked, judged, when maybe they were on their phone, catching up on a work email. We don't know, right? You don't know in those moments, so you're just assuming you don't necessarily know the truth. But on the opposite side, it could be, you know, the person is on the phone and instead of kind of going into that gut reaction of really coming into yourself to get present, to understand, okay, this person is not trying to be hurtful to me, right? This person is just on their phone. What is this making me feel and what do I need for this not to happen again? So then it becomes more phrasing where it's, when you're on your phone, I feel invisible. I know that's not your intention. The next time we're together, could you be on your phone for 15 minutes and then spend the rest of the time with me?

Okay, so I want to switch gears, if we can, to self talk. And the inner determines the outer, right? And then, you know, the outer determines the inner to hopefully a lesser extent, but it's certainly important. So it's been said that the most important conversation we will have is the conversation we have with ourselves. So how do we self talk like a Buddhist or talk to Yourself like a Buddhist as the book titles to be more accurate.

Yeah. So I mean, the same questions kind of align, right? In the sense of is the language that you're using when you talk to yourself, is it promoting suffering or not? Is the language you're using making you feel bad, discomfort, ashamed, embarrassed? Any type of language that brings those feelings about or less than, that's negative self talk. The way to communicate with yourself as a Buddhist is to reach what I call the middle path of communication, which is not being your worst enemy, not being your biggest fan. Right. But reaching that state in the middle where you can really see yourself objectively. Right. So it's a, it's balanced language, the way that you're talking to yourself and it really does follow the same principles of it being honest and kind and helpful and knowing that exaggeration is an extreme and taking things personally is an extreme.

So the middle path language. Yeah, the middle, the middle path. Okay, so give us an example of, I mean, someone might say to myself, themselves, you know, why do I always do this wrong? I'm such a loser. You know, whatever they say, right? All this like negative self talk and then the opposite side is, oh, I'm Napoleon, delusions of grandeur. Right. Or whatever. So the middle path, like, do you have some examples of those?

Yeah. So there's a lot of different ways that we talk to ourselves negatively. So if we just take the personalization, right, where kind of everything is, we think everything is our fault and we're the worst possible person and nothing's going right because we've done something. What you want to do instead is you want to replace that with balanced responsibility. So that means that you're coming from a place of observation. So you acknowledge your role, you that you had within a situation, but nothing further. So instead of it's all my fault, it would look like I played a part in the situation. Right. Or I'm doing my best and I'm only responsible for my own decisions and actions. Does that make sense?

Sure. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It's great. I'm curious though, because I think anybody listening will agree that negative self talk is not going to be helpful. But the interesting thing about the Buddhist middle path in communication is, you know, any motivational speaker will say you should pump yourself up. Right. And I'm the greatest. You know what about that, do you think like the middle path would be not positive self talk, it would be neutral self talk.

Right.

Or is there a distinction there I'm not seeing?

No, that is Correct. Because boosting ourselves up in that way is an exaggeration and it's not truth. Right. So with the middle path, the idea is to see the truth of the situation, right? To see the direct experience, to see who you really are and really what your responsibility is in certain situations. And so it's more about leaving the judgment behind and really coming from a place of observation. You're not exaggerating into the best version of yourself, but you're also not going to the opposite extreme either.

You know, I almost wonder if, I mean, some of the better goals, and I know that we're not talking about goal setting, but I think it's almost analogous. Some of the better goal setting advice that I've heard might be, you know, set goals that are just out of reach but not out of sight. Right. There's something that will stretch you, but they're not ridiculous. Right? They're realistic, but they're a stretch. So in the middle path concept, shouldn't we try to talk to ourselves with a little bit of a pump up, with a, you know, not a crazy ridiculous exaggeration, like just out of reach but not out of sight, but like promoting this growth concept. I mean, certainly Buddhism believes in growth, right? So there is a, I mean all of us have a better version of ourselves and then there's a ridiculous, unrealistic version. Right.

Or I don't know, is that. Yeah, I think the big piece is that when you're talking to yourself in this way, it's talking to yourself with compassion. Right? So you're talking to yourself as you would a friend. And it's really, you know, just being very gentle with yourself and being very friendly with yourself. And so with that, I mean, there is positive there, right? Because you are coming to yourself really with this sense of appreciation and understanding. And it's also knowing that your language is going to be helpful to you. Right. And not hurtful.

Yeah, good, good. I like that you talk about in chapter six, the practice of questioning. Now, I don't know what you mean by it, but I find that a lot of ways in life to diffuse becoming upset about something is to just question it. If someone acts badly to you, you know, you certainly view it that way, obviously and get all upset about it. But you know, maybe just ask yourself a question about it. You know, I wonder why they'd act that way. Maybe something's going on in their life. Maybe a close person in their life just passed away or was diagnosed with a disease or maybe they were, who knows what people are going through, nobody would. None of us ever really know, Right. Even the people that are closest to us a lot of times don't even really, really know. You know, maybe they know the thing, but they don't know what's going on in our minds. Right. So what about questioning?

Yeah, I think that's a really great point because what often happens is we just go with the thoughts in our heads and the beliefs that we have, right? And rarely do we slow down and just stop and get quiet and ask questions. And so I think asking questions does shift the way that you see it can shift how you're seeing another person, seeing a situation. And it also makes you look at how you're using language. I mean, when we stop and we ask ourselves kind of what judgment am I making or how am I actually adding to this observation, right? Because there's the actual direct experience. And then we have a tendency to add evaluation and add judgment and all these other add ons. But if we strip all those away, then we're really left with what we really often need to focus on, which is the truth. And so just asking ourselves, what judgment am I making about myself? How am I evaluating myself right now can change the way that we see ourselves?

Good points, Cynthia. There's a big body of work here. Obviously couldn't ask you everything. Is there anything else you just want to share with our listeners? Anything else you want them to know from either of the books?

What I like to tell students is just that it is a practice, right? Communicating is a practice. It's a skill. It's a learned skill. And often it feels difficult and exhausting. But once you know a method and once you know a process, then it becomes a lot easier. And this process, right, of communicating like a Buddhist or the practice of intentional communication, it's doable. And what it helps you do is it really helps you become, you know, more responsive than reactive and you so that you're no longer led around by your emotion, but you actually are able to be in those difficult conversations with your emotion, breathe alongside them and still be able to choose how you interact in those moments. And so it's possible to change your communication, Although it may not feel that way, it definitely is. So that's what I would say.

Good points. Give out your website.

It's cynthiakane.com T Y N T H I A K A N E Fantastic.

Cynthia Kane, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me.

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