467: Peak Prosperity with Chris Martenson

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Welcome to the Holistic Survival show with Jason Hartman. The economic storm brewing around the world is set to spill into all aspects of our lives. Are you prepared? Where are you going to turn for the critical life skills necessary to survive and prosper? The Holistic Survival show is your family's insurance for a better life. Jason will teach you to think independently, to understand threats and how to create the ultimate action plan. Sudden change or worst case scenario, you'll be ready. Welcome to Holistic Survival, your key resource for protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Ladies and gentlemen, your host, Jason Hartman.

It's my pleasure to welcome back a returning guest, and that is Dr. Chris Mart. He is co founder of PeakProsperity.com, developer of the educational video series that I watched many years ago called the Crash Course, and co author of the book how to Prepare for the Future and Create a World Worth Inheriting. Chris, welcome back.

Thank you, Jason. It's really great to be back with you and all your listeners today.

Good to have you. Where are you located?

I am in western Massachusetts, little town called Greenfield, right on i91 that cuts through Connecticut up towards Vermont.

You know, in our virtual world, I always think it's kind of important to have a sense of geography. That's why I almost always ask my guests where they're located. So, Chris, the economy is doing crazy things. I know that you're talking about how the next 20 years will be completely different from the past. What do you mean by that?

Really, the larger sweep of the story that I've been telling for a while is that humans is a species across the whole globe. This isn't an American centric story that we've grown kind of to the edges of our flask. And this next period of time is about learning how to adjust to some really, really big things, including this idea that you can't grow infinitely forever in a finite space, whatever your fixed volume is. Now, ours is the world. And we've got tons of data that says, well, you know, in terms of freshwater, soil, insects, species that we're kind of at the edge of what we can take. And as well, most of us eat fossil fuels. That's just how we live, unless we live an agrarian lifestyle somewhere in Africa. So we're coming up on a very big phase transition in how humans are going to need to organize ourselves in very new ways.

It's Kind of a weird thing if you really think about it, that the economy of the globe, like all economies are based on this concept of you gotta keep growing, you gotta keep growing. And growth creates a whole bunch of what they call externalities, doesn't it? And those externalities are the things you just address, whether it be species extinction, pollution, whatever. But Chris, what else can you do? I mean, people just kind of demand that, you know, we have growth, that things get better. Does progress always or now? Maybe you want to dissect those two words, progress versus growth. Maybe they're not the same thing. A lot of economists would say they are. But does it always involve the externalities that we've had in the past or can it be done differently?

Well, this is a great thing to dissect because it really does need to be pulled apart. And so let's take needs and wants, let's separate those for a second. You and I, we would want more progress, right? We don't need it, but I would want it. Right. I would love the next biotech revolutions to come along. I'm really excited by some of the technological progress we're making. I think we can do things a lot better. I want all of that stuff. If it doesn't happen, it's not really terminal to this condition. So we want the progress. The need in this story, though, comes from our monetary system. It needs to keep growing. It's like a shark, the proverbial shark that's either swimming or it's dying, right? So it has to keep moving. And so our financial system requires this constant growth and it would take a lot. And the crash course does this. You have to peel back and understand how it's constructed and how money is created and how all this stuff. But if we can just hold that on faith, article of faith, people can go to the crash course or other means and figure out if this is true.

My listeners understand, because we've talked about it ad nauseam, that money is lent into existence. The concept of fractional reserve banking and all of the. It's just a big giant scam, frankly. But it is what it is. We're not going to change it. So I just kind of give in and I say, hey, align your interests with the powers that be.

Right, well, that's good.

Well, that's kind of fatalistic, I guess, but it's good to understand it. So we have this system we have now and it's in some ways toxic, you would say, I guess. Right. So what do we do?

First thing is it's Kind of like when. If you've ever been to AA or similar program or.

I have not, but I'm familiar with it.

If you've ever been in a serious life changing moment, there's two ways humans change. Psychologists know this very well. We change through insight. All right, so we got some critical insight. We listened to a Tim Ferriss podcast. We're like, oh my gosh. And we changed ourselves in some important way. Or listened to Jason Hartman and we go, oh, with that insight, I will change. That's wonderful. Also rare, the more common way humans change is by pain. We run up into some intolerable condition and go, oh, fine. And we change ourselves or the situation. So in this story, not enough people really understand the nature of both the problems. I'm using these words very carefully. Both the problems we face and the predicaments we face with the differentiation between those being problems have solutions. Predicaments just have outcomes. You have to manage them as best you can.

Right, okay. So you know another way to say that Would people change through inspiration or desperation? Right. And I don't know if it was Jim Rohn or his copycat Tony Robbins who said that, but it's a good way to look at it.

I like that. I heard that. That's good.

Yeah. And it's saying the same thing you said. But what change needs to occur? What is the change? So, yeah, that's how we change. But then what change would be needed?

Well, we have to begin living within the limits that exist out there. And so for a long time, a number of years, I was in corporate strategy.

Right.

I wore the suit and helped corporations figure out how to do what they did better. And here's the essence of a strategy. A lot of complex things you could learn at a big consulting house, but every strategy boils down to this. What's your vision and how are you going to get there? Right. What's the plan? What are the resources? And so what we really need to do in this story is understand that our entire story has changed and we need to begin using things very wisely. So here's a quick example. I love the technology and I know a lot of people in the business who do extract shale oil from way down. Horribly complex, amazing stuff. What they can do with this drilling technology is astonishing. But if you pull that stuff out of the ground so fast, all you're doing is flaring the associated gas into the night sky and using the resulting oil so that you can sell a few more years of F150 trucks. You're probably wasting your opportunity in this story. And so the oil in this story represents our resources. If we were going to do things differently, we would say, hey, there's not an infinite amount. There's some. We use it for really critical things. What are we going to use the remaining balance on? And if we come up with an idea that says we have to use half of it to build a new future and we'll use half to sell more F150 trucks, fine. But we don't even have that articulation of that larger master plan. And that's what people are starting to detect. You know, you want to talk about this idea of where's the culture going, the social pressures we're feeling that are building, whether it's the yellow vest or Trump getting elected or the Catalonia breakaway or Brexit, These are all things that can be understood once you back up and see where we really are in terms of the larger resource story, which, by the way, spoiler alert, we can't grow the pie like we used to because the really easy to get resources are all gone. Hey, we're getting after this deeper, harder, more dilute stuff. Fine, but it's more expensive. It just means the pie can't grow like it used to. But every authority, monetary, fiscal is trying to push that car so that it can go the same speed that it used to go, and it can't. So this huge challenges and opportunities.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so before you go on, let me play devil's advocate with a couple of things you said. I'll just rattle a few things off and you can address whatever you want, or all of them. So didn't they kind of disprove the peak oil theory from the 70s? Haven't people always thought, hey, there's this kind of, you know, Malthusian thing? And then some technology comes along to solve the problem later, which you address shale and, you know, we can talk about fracking and stuff like that. I get there's dangers and costs and so forth. And you look at the cost of, you know, just a gallon of gasoline, and I mean, adjusted for inflation, at least at the moment, gasoline is quite cheap. You know, my friend just posted on Facebook that she went to Costco and got gas for $1.80 a gallon. Now, if you adjust that back for inflation, that's cheaper than it was a lot of times in the 80s and maybe even the late 70s. It's kind of amazing. You know, America's an energy exporter now, and of course we're not talking just about the US we're talking about the whole planet. But, you know, is there some room for any debate on some of those issues?

Well, it's a very complex area. I don't know if we have time to get into all of it, but I totally get where you're coming from. And if we could just peel the covers back just a little bit here. Have you taken a flight where you've flown over a shale basin and you look out the window? I'm sure a lot of your listeners have. And you see that checkerboard quilt like, like there's like these one to two acre drill pads just scraped with monotonous precision. Checkerboard precision.

It doesn't look good, I'll agree. A lot of the stuff people are doing to the, you know, the rainforest or whatever, you know, you look at that from above and you're thinking, wow, this is a cost costly consumption, right?

The scraped areas will grow back if necessary. But here's the point I want to make around that. Once upon a time, when we were first in the golden era of oil discovery and they're discovering the Ghawar field in Saudi Arab, the Spindle top in Texas, those things are down about maybe 1,000ft roughly. And they stuck a straw down and then that straw would start producing three or four thousand barrels a day. And some of those straws put there in the 30s, 40s and 50s are still producing three to 4,000 barrels per day per well. It's amazing. Now let's look at one of those little checkerboard pieces. Let's say we're in the Bakken and this amazing company parks this big giant rig on there. They drill down 10,000ft, they slanted sideways, and they go sideways another 10,000ft. Then they do 100 stage frack. Maybe I'm using extreme examples. They might throw 15 to 20 million pounds of sand down that hole. Millions of barrels of water. It's just astonishing, right? And they do that. And that well starts flowing maximally at 1,000 barrels a day to start, and then it's lost 85% of that in just three years. And it's producing maybe 40 barrels a day in three years. So think of the energy it took to drill 20,000ft and do all that other stuff and what we got back out of that. Because what matters in this story is what we get back from energy exploration, because that's what you and I live on. That's what everybody listening to this lives on, unless they're in the energy business directly. So when we look at this story we can clearly say we went through the easy stuff which was like a buck a barrel. Now we're into the harder stuff which is like $50 a barrel and now we're drilling into the source rocks. There's no pre source rocks. Right. We're all the way down to the shale its and it will last for a while but many of the shale basins that got drilled 15 years ago are already past peak and it's a quick flash in the pan. It's great stuff. I'm not saying don't do it but to think it's going to last like the old stuff did from the 40s, 50s and 60s. It's just a totally different beast.

Are we moving to alternative energy? Is that, I mean, you know we always hear and read about it but it's not really anything real like wind and solar and geo. So it's a drop in the bucket, right?

Well it really is. Hydro's wonderful. They call it renewable but we basically dammed up most of the spots that are suitable though there'll be a few others but we're not going to triple it from here for example and geo, who knows, maybe geothermal's got more to it. Fingers crossed, let's hope. But the wind and the solar story, increasingly we're understanding now that a those aren't replacements for liquid fuels. Right. You can't. Nobody runs jumbo jets on electricity yet. Nobody drives a giant container ship across the ocean with electricity yet. I'm not sure that we will without some amazing breakthrough in battery technologies. Fingers crossed there. But what we found is that at current rates to really replace our energy infrastructure at current rates of adoption and people are all excited like oh but Chris, 50% growth rates per year, wind and solar, wonderful. But at that rate It'll still take 400 years to replace our energy infrastructure. We don't have 400 years in this story. Every model I've looked at says that global output of fossil fuels has a peak at some point it just does. And we'll drill into source rocks and maybe we'll find a way to harvest vacuum up the clathrates, the methane clathrates off. Who knows. But there isn't the easy cheap stuff. It's now more expensive. This alone helps us understand why global economic growth rates have been subpar for the past 15 years. The pie just doesn't grow like it used to. It's easier to grow by with dollar a barrel. Saudi oil that comes out as much as you want right now it's a little harder. That puts some sand in the transmission. The next stage of the story though. So when you started with why the next 20 years? Right. Well, this next 10 years we're going to see a lot of changes because all those old legacy fields are depleting very rapidly and we're going to have to see the world turn in an enormous way towards shale and we're going to drill that. But again, if we do that without a clear understanding of why and how we're using that energy to build out a new future, hey, it might be exciting, it might be profitable for a while, but it doesn't give us that sense of belonging to a story where we can follow the plot line and say, I get it, I see where we're going. And I think young people today are increasingly starting to lose the plot line in this story.

Now why are they losing the plot line? And when you say that, just explain that a little more, if you would.

Well, there's a really important piece of work that's come out now. They say that young people now have about a 50% chance of experiencing something called depression by the time they've reached the age of 30. Now 50%, that's off the charts level. The problem is that once they peel that back a little bit, they said, oh no, this isn't depression. Depression's either situational, meaning, you know, you lost your job, your dad died, something happened, or it's chemical and we can give a, some sort of a chemical treatment to that.

Yeah, be careful of that. That's a whole other conspiracy theory I have.

Well, well, for a while it can help boost you out. But if you're on long term, I'm not a believer in that. It just doesn't work out.

Pharmaceutical drugs. I just say stay away from them unless absolutely necessary.

Absolutely. But what they're finding is that of these things where they're marking these kids down as depressed, they're finding it's not. You can't talk them out of it, you can't drug them out of it. And so they realize there's a word at play and that's demoralized. Right. And so what happens? As opposed to a depressive disorder, demoralization happens. It's really an existential breakdown. It's what happens when your cognitive map just doesn't match up with reality anymore. So this past week, before we recorded this in Europe, tens of thousands of students, they did a school strike in marched and they were doing it around climate change and their beliefs that climate change offers them no future. Right. And so that's an example of what happens. Their prime message, Jason, was why should I study if the world's just going up in flames? Like that's their cognitive map says I'm being asked to participate in a system and become a good student so I can get a good job, so I can participate in a system that I'm trying to hold this other belief that says that system is destroying the planet. And they can't reconcile those two things. So out they go marching. Right? And I'm not here to either say anything about whether they've got the right message or the right cognitive maps, but so many young people are reporting that demoralized sense of saying I don't have a sense of meaning or purpose. And fundamentally the consumer culture that we've grown up in is kind of meaningless. Right. You know, it leads to a lot of people. You know, we just this past week also saw the data that said people were either drinking or drugging themselves to death or committing suicide directly at the highest rates ever.

Yeah, yeah, right.

So, so that comes out of that demoralization. Again. So that all sounds like problem definition. Chris, where are you going with this? To me, there's also. That's the fuel as well, because again, if people are either going to change from pain or insight, that pain is here and the question is great, what are we going to do with that? And I think this is where particularly young people are coming together and saying, hey, can we imagine a different, better future for ourselves? And the answer is, of course we can. Right? We can always do that. But we're starting to feel it's a very complex story where because of how the central banks did what they did, they created this enormously unfair wealth gap because oil is no longer as cheap. It's still abundant, but not as cheap as it used to be. It's 50, 60 a barrel, not 20 anymore. Because of that, we're starting to experience economic growth just get a little laggy on us. But now we've got 250 trillion of debts outstanding in the world and that's creating its own pressures and more people with student debt. All these things are pressures that come together and they're synthesizing into this next 10 year window and it's gonna create huge social upheavals. Already started. That's what the yellow vest protests are about. It's gonna create enormous political whipsaws which is gonna be very hard to plan for. Like how would you go from Trump to Bernie Sanders if that's the Next switch, if that's how it plays out.

Or Obama to Trump.

Or Obama to Trump. That's a sort of political whiplash that as a business person, very hard to plan for. And it create upheavals as well. And a lot of these are reactions to the stimuli that are coming. And my work is about helping people back up enough so that you can see what the stimulus is, so that you can choose how to respond rather than react to the situations. Because if you're in reactive mode, you're going to get worn out, you're going to get burnout, you're going to get demoralized, and that doesn't have to be the case. But if we can see what's happening and understand it and it's not personal and we can abstract ourselves, I think we have a better chance to position ourselves personally, professionally, for what's coming.

Okay, you've alluded to the culture war a few times. Just here in the last few minutes. Take us into that a little more. And I call it the culture war. Maybe it's more accurately called cultural decay. I just, I am not optimistic about sort of the ethos of Gen Y and Gen Z. Maybe I don't know Gen Z well enough yet. Nobody does. But. But these are the most catered to generations in human history. You know, certainly there's a lot of talent and a lot of ambition in those generations, but by and large, there's a lot of apathy too. And you've alluded to it. I mean, just now, you know, it's like this sense of, you know, what's the direction, what's the point? And a lot of it is, you know, when you grow up looking at a small screen and you're worried about what everybody thinks of you all the time on social media, of course that impacts everybody, not just them, but they're. They're really, you know, it's like their life. You know, there's this sort of like connection but disconnection at the same time. It's hard to wrap one's head around it. In England, they've appointed a, like a minister just to address loneliness issues. These are, you know, major social problems. People are so isolated nowadays, but yet they're connected at the same time. So how do we reconcile this?

Well, gosh, a lot of very interesting directions to go with all of that. It was recently I was watching a former Facebook executive come out and say, oh my God, this stuff is absolutely horrible. This product we created, and I won't let my own kids use it. That's because there's been this incredible explosion of knowledge about how our brains are wired and how we are as organisms and primates and what the dopamine pathways look like and what reward centers do. And gamers now who are game developers, boot camp for game developers is all about the dopaminergic pathways and how to boost them and what's the right frequency and pacing of rewards and scaling them and all of that stuff. The game looks like fun to you, but somebody spent a lot of time figuring out how to map into your pathways. And by the way, cocaine gives you a dopamine burst. We're going to discover, I think, just like GPS came out, love the technology. I can't drive through Boston. I won't go anywhere without gps. If my GPS map goes off, I experience panic. You know, I love the technology. And it also allowed fishermen who used to sail out six hours or two days into the ocean, drop their net somewhere and scour around for a bit to actually pick up six inches to the left of where they stopped last week. And because of that, fish stocks collapsed all over the world because the culture of fishing wasn't ready for the technology. And so I think a lot of what you're talking about here is we have these wonderful technologies. I love my smartphone, I love all the apps, I love what it can do. And we're starting to find out. It's like every technology, it's two edged sword. We might say one edge is blunter than the other is sharper. So we like it. But we're going to discover, and we are discovering that children raised in that environment of being constantly manipulated, if you will, through the dopamine and other pathway experiences that they don't necessarily have the fortitude or the skill set for handling complex stuff. Right. By the way, even going down to your local town hall and trying to get involved in a decision to whether or not to raise fees on a parking garage is a complex sort of a decision that requires a lot of grit your teeth and fortitude. So I think there's a case to be made here to say that the kinds of challenges that we're really starting to face are really hard. They're going to call for sacrifice. There's no immediate gratification to be seen anywhere. And then how are people going to react and vote as they carry forward into a world where there's a lot of really complex stuff. Guess what? We're going to fumble around for a bit in this story.

Yeah, yeah. So the future of the economy, inflationary or deflationary. What do you think? Next 10 years? Yes. Yes to both.

Here's yes, here's why.

Talk about. Hey, listeners, talk about Chris betting on red and black at the same time, right?

Come on, you can't do that.

You need get to, you need to get yourself a one handed economist. So here's why I say yes to that. First, the deflationary forces are there. They're very potent and if they were allowed to take their natural course, we would see a lot of deflation happen. So deflation meaning. Let me define it. It's a destruction of the overall stock of money. And credit is money. So if you look at where we are with auto loans, it's saturated market. Student loans, same thing, student loans, those really want to go forward.

Thankfully this time not real estate loans though, I don't think.

No. Well, watch your segments carefully. Commercial might have a different story to tell you than real estate in residential areas. But leaving that aside, we have a lot of debt in the system. It's just crammed to the gills. Deflation is ready to take over. The central banks have no interest in deflation whatsoever. They're going to keep pumping as hard as they can to see if they can create inflation.

My prediction for the next we're going to have another deflationary scare. We'll see the markets fall a bunch. We'll see things start to maybe, maybe there's an institutional failure or maybe even a sovereign failure like Greece, we don't know. But it'll scare the central banks enough that they'll go to the next round. And that next round is not money for Wall Street. This has got to be money for Main Street. This is where I don't think people have been talking about the MMT theory, which is more just deficit spending.

Give me a break. Modern monetary theory. I had Mike Norman on the show and he was interesting. People love that episode. He actually hung up on me when I asked him a question. I mean, I just asked him a question innocently, you know. And then I had another MMT professor on last week from, I don't know, maybe it's Berkeley or something, I can't remember. You know, that just seems like a fantasy. Like you can't just spend and create prosperity with spending. I mean, well, actually maybe you can. We have been doing that. It's just artificial is all. But that's a minor detail.

Well, there's a lot of critiques about MMT too much to go into here. My fundamental critique is that I think they have it upside down. And they believe that money is the thing that creates the production. If we just had more money, then we could get production. It's exactly backwards as far as I'm concerned. Money is just this medium of exchange and production comes from real needs being met by real goods and services. The biggest critique I have of it is they just assume everything into existence. But leaving that aside, the showstopper is show me one place in the world where MMT has been applied and been successful. So it's all academic theory right now. There is no example.

Great point. I'm so glad you said that because I would say the same thing for its derivatives of communism and socialism. Show me one point in history or place on earth where those systems have been successful and then everybody's gonna say, oh, Scandinavia. Not really. I've, you know, busted that myth a few times on the show, but again, too long to go into. So, yeah, go ahead. But that's great, great question. Yeah.

You know, where this is all gonna go though, is so let's imagine though that you're part of the 99%. And let's imagine that your health insurance bills have been going up, just your premiums, you're not even sick. They've been going up at, I don't know, 5, 8, 9, 10, 15%, depending on the year. And even when you try and use it as just this horrible experience and it's just not good. And all the neoclassical economists and all their Republicans and Democrats have managed to make their class, the protected class, very happy and healthy. They've offshored all the jobs and capital's won this story and labor's really lost out. It's not a hard stretch to imagine that people weighing the balance saying, well, we have this sort of crony capitalism. It's not really working for me and somebody's offering me this more socialist sounding stuff, but free education and a much cheaper healthcare experience, that sounds better. I'll try that. I think people are ready to try stuff. And I'm not saying I support it, I'm saying I understand it. And that's the pressure that's coming forward, because so few crumbs have been left at the table for the average person. So that's really the social pressure that's building up. And that's why it's essential people understand the headwaters of the Nile in this story is that central banks cannot print up prosperity. They are redistributive organizations and they've been reverse Robin Hooding this for a while. They've been taking from the many to Give to the few. And I understand why they thought they had to do that. It was a crisis, but the crisis should have lasted six, eight, maybe 12 months. They're 10 years into this, they don't know how to get out of it it. And so they're a little trapped and stuck. And so they're going to keep printing. And that's why when you ask deflation inflation first, deflation enough to scare them and then they start printing like crazy. And you are going to detect that as a one time temporary tax cut. No taxes owed this year. That's money straight in your pocket. Maybe a refund for last year as well. If they go further, maybe it's a check direct from the treasury funded by the Federal Reserve. We don't know. But that's what money for Main street looks like. And once we get to that point, that's where I tell my listeners, that's when you have to have your buy list ready. You have to know where you're going to invest because I want you to run, not walk to those things. And that includes real estate. This is the hard asset story, you know, the tangible, real asset side of the story. Once we get to that money for Main street, you don't want to be holding the paper claims anymore. You want to be holding the real assets. And of course those, as you know, those are harder. You don't hit the easy button and buy a Bitcoin or a share of IBM. You got to run out and understand your markets and to have a team and know what's going on. And it just takes more work.

Yep, I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, the hard assets are real things. They're real commodities that people need. They could be, you know, metals, they could be real estate, they could be, you know, food and water and bullets and ammunition. Yeah, I mean, you know, just real things, that's what it always comes back to. You can play games with the Wall street economy all you want with financial engineering, with the central banking system, it's all just a big game of smoke and mirrors. And at the end of the day, it all comes down to real hard assets. That's what really is there when the smoke clears, right?

Absolutely. So if I'm right and we get this deflationary pulse first, what's the best asset to hold? Well, cash. Cash is a legitimate position. Obviously. Keep your hard assets if you've got them. If you positive cash flowing properties, great, keep them. But otherwise, you know, this is a great time to sort of just get ready get your buy list ready. You know, I live in New England. I'm pretty excited by, you know, where the price of woodland might go. And I like woodland for a lot of different reasons. I love what's possible in a lot of different real estate niches that are up and out there. And again, real estate isn't a single asset class, obviously, it's a bunch of, bunch of little ones. But I love some of the stories that are coming in down there. Residential assisted living or the collapse of the large brick and mortar retail stores, that's going to have a huge impact on patterns of where people live, work, eat, play. These are all big trends. I love trend investing. I do believe in my heart of hearts that 2000 was a bubble. It was bad, it was ill advised, it was stupid. We shouldn't have done it. It was a credit bubble. It was Greenspan trying to replace a business cycle with a credit cycle. It blew up and we should have said that didn't work. But they fished around and they got this guy Bernanke who said, I know how to fix that. We just didn't do enough. So he went up and blew up a second bubble. And we called that the housing bubble, but it was bigger than that. And that blew up and that should have been the learning. Instead they tripled or quadrupled down, depending on how you like to add stuff up, and went on a 0% negative interest rate blowout extravaganza that was global. We got an everything bubble. And here's. Look, I might be wrong, but I'm not confused. Credit bubbles burst and when they do, they're worse than business cycles. So the thing they were trying to save us from, they replaced with something worse. You know, we got rid of the cold, but we got cancer. It was just awful what they did.

Yeah, it's really something else. These are, these are complex issues and it's just very important that people study them and really, really pay attention to all this stuff.

Chris, give out your website, peakprosperity.com and we've got a lot of information there, a lot of it's public and free. And we also have a subscription newsletter for people who like to go a little deeper into these issues.

Fantastic. Well, Chris Martenson, thanks for joining us again.

My pleasure.

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