494 FBF: Whitey on Trial: Secrets, Corruption, and the Search for Truth by Jon Leiberman

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It's my pleasure to welcome John Lieberman to the show. He's an investigative reporter for the Howard Stern show on Sirius XM and host of Lieberman Live at Five, a weekly news radio show airing on Howard 101, crime contributor for CNN and HLN. And he's got an interesting new book about Whitey Bolcher. John, welcome. How are you?

Hey, Jason, thanks for having me. Doing well, how you doing?

Yeah, good. It's great to have you on the show. You're coming to us today from New York City, right?

Indeed, New York City, where there is snow and more bad weather.

Yeah. And you're right in the Sirius XM offices now, I believe, right?

That's right. We're right in Midtown Manhattan.

Or should I say studio? Maybe both.

A little bit of both. A little bit of both. Offices and studio.

Good stuff. Well, tell us what you're working on nowadays, John.

Well, our new book, Whitey on Trial, you know, is kind of a labor of love. I was a national correspondent at America's Most Wanted for seven years. And while I was there with Fox. I went around the world with the FBI Whitey Bulger task force searching for Whitey. Of course, it turns out he was hiding in plain sight in California the whole time. But regardless, I teamed up with a Boston attorney, Margaret McLean, to write this book, which, you know, chronicles, I would say, a once in a lifetime type trial. You know, 19 murders pinned on Whitey, convicted killers coming face to face in the courtroom. Whitey even writing us a letter for our book. So it's really one of those cases that just doesn't come along very often. And we spell it out in our book, Whitey on Trial.

And so what's the government corruption angle, though?

Well, look, the reality is that many in the government, in the Department of Justice knew exactly what Whitey Bulger was doing. Look the other way. And by doing, I mean, brutal killings, amassing millions of dollars in the drug trade on the streets of South Boston and really ruling that entire area out of fear. And the reality is that some of the corruption came out in the trial, but there are other hints of it that we still haven't been able to get a full grasp of. And the reality is that, yes, informants are incredibly important when you're talking about law enforcement, when you're talking about gathering intelligence on crime both domestically and abroad. But the question is, how far can you allow your informants to go? And in this case, I would argue, and I think many would agree, that Whitey Bulger, James Whitey Bulger, was allowed to go too far.

And so what is the reason that the government acted this way?

I mean, I guess you'll have to speculate as to their reasoning, because you don't know for sure, probably. But that's the reason.

Well, no, I can tell you the reason. And the reality was twofold. One is that Whitey had at least one agent, John Connally, in his pocket. They were childhood friends, and Connally's currently sitting in prison in connection with one of the murders in this case. And in fact, in our book, we have an exclusive interview with John Connally from prison, the only one that he's done in which he claims that he was simply the fall guy, the scapegoat, but that the corruption went much higher than him in the Department of Justice. So one reason, of course, as I said, is Whitey was friends with this agent. Another reason is that the government was hungry to get information about the Italian Mafia, and they felt as if Whitey Bulger, leading the Irish American Mafia in South Boston, could help provide them with intel on.

The Italian Mafia, which they wanted so badly because a lot of people's careers hinged on bringing down the Italian mafia in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. And so they would basically do anything to get that sort of information.

Yeah. Unbelievable. You know, it's just. I mean, you know, any thoughts on how we can end or attack this kind of dirty dealing that's going on inside the government? You know, so people there can be real justice?

Well, I. Yeah, I mean, that's the billion dollar question. But I do think that in this day and age, with 24 hour news cycles and a lot of different Internet sites, I mean, I do think the watchdog function of the media hasn't gone away. And in fact, in some ways, it's actually more than it's ever been because now you have citizen journalists and a whole bunch of different people looking out. But one misconception about Whitey, too, was that he and his crew simply killed other mobsters. Well, the reality is they did not. And we tell a story in the book of a woman named Diane Sussman, who took the stand in Whitey's trial. And she describes how she was on a second or third date with a guy named Louie, and she and Louie were in a car with a third person. The next thing you know, the car is riddled with bullets. She is badly wounded. Louie, the guy who she was on the second or third date with, was paralyzed, and the third guy, Mr. Milano, was murdered. And this was completely a case of mistaken identity. Bulger and his crew had the wrong people. And the story that we tell in the book is how over the next 30 years, Diane Sussman, who was in her early 20s then never missed a month, going back to visit Louis, the guy that she was on the date with. So she would go on to get married, have children, have a family and a career, but she would always be tied to this man who she was wounded in the car with on her second or third date. And to me, you know, it shows kind of the power of the human spirit in the context of such a dark, dark event. And it really was an amazing story.

Yeah, that's just incredible. Okay, well, now you do. I mean, you do investigative stories for Howard Stern. That's pretty interesting.

I do. I do a little bit of everything. I do news for the Howard Stern show, as you touched on. And then, of course, I host my own show on Sirius called Lieberman Live, which is every. And then I'm a crime contributor for CNN, HLN, which is CNN's sister network. And then for a website Called Wild About Trial as well. And I blog for the Huffington Post for their crime section. So my career has been based, you know, very much on covering crime and digging into and investigating criminals.

Who else have you investigated? You know, what are some of the more interesting, interesting ones? I mean, you know, you're deep into the Whitey Bulger thing because. Because you did. But there's gotta be some other fascinating cases, right?

Well, for seven years that America's most wanted. I mean, I was on the road seven days a week, you know, chasing. Chasing down fugitives. You know, I've done cases of mass murder, of prison escapees, of rapists, of bank robbers. You know, I've come face to face with probably upwards of three dozen convicted killers that I've interviewed in prison. And look, the one commonality is everybody has a justification. Everybody says they have a reason why they killed.

Or.

Don'T they just first say they're not guilty? I mean, the prisons are full of innocent people.

I know. Yeah. But surprisingly, surprisingly, some of them say that they're not guilty, but others say, yeah, I did it, and here's why. And they always have a justification. It's mainly the sex offenders, actually, that always sort of have a rationale for why they did what they did. They perpetrated this rape because of X, Y and Z. And that's really sickening in some ways. You know, in my career, I found that sex offenders are even more offensive in some cases than brutal killers.

Yeah. Because of the recidivism and the like.

Yeah, well, yeah. For example, give us some examples of these justifications. I mean, I can't. I can't imagine you could justify any of this stuff, but what do they say?

Oh, well, I mean, look, domestic murders are the number one type of murder that we see in this country. You know, murders by spouses or boyfriends or girlfriends. So, you know, I've heard every excuse in the book. You know, she. You know, she demeaned me. He. And it goes both ways, too, frankly. I mean, I've done cases of men killing women and women killing men, and, you know, and, you know, relationships are so volatile that, you know, I've heard every excuse in the book in that regard. And, you know, and sex offenders truly think that in a lot of cases that they're victims are asking for it, number one. And number two, that they just have an impulse that they can't control. And they. They don't see it in black and white terms like many of us do. You know, they feel a lot of gray in what is appropriate and inappropriate you know, with children? That's been my experience.

What do we do with these guys? I mean, do we double tap them? I kind of wondered, what is the deal? You never hear much about it. Like, what about chemical castration? I mean, does that just not work that well or.

Well, it's tight. You know, you have so many civil libertarians who fight against that. I mean, I remember when I was a reporter in New Mexico, there was a big push for chemical castration, but it kept getting defeated and defeated. Look, the reality is that we're stuck in a terrible situation, because if it were up to me, I'd say for sex offenders, you know, you lock them up and throw away the key. The problem is that that's not the reality. And they get out of jail at some point. So then the question becomes, how do you rehabilitate them when they're in, or how do you try to rehabilitate them through treatment? I don't personally think the treatment works, but if you believe like I do that treatment doesn't work, then you also have to believe that simply they're going to be incarcerated for a finite amount of time, then they're going to be released and do it again, which is what I believe, you know, and so it's. So it's a struggle. I mean, but I hate, absolutely hate to see when sex offenders are released and they don't register as sex offenders and they end up perpetrating again. And they do, and they do because they. They prey on young children.

Yeah, that's. That's just. That's just scary. I mean, it's disgusting, obviously, but just seems like these guys would just volunteer for this stuff. I don't know why there's a civil libertarian issue here. I mean, you know, I'm sure the ACLU cries. Cries foul about it, and sometimes I agree with the aclu, but not always. Probably mostly not. But I mean, would it be an issue of is it foolproof? Like, if they do chemical castration, could these guys be released? I mean, wouldn't. Gosh, if I were in that. Spend your life in prison or be chemically castrated and be released after, you know, a shorter sentence, Wouldn't they all choose release? And I mean, as long as it's foolproof, it, you know, it seems like you give them a choice, they don't have to do it.

Yeah, but criminals don't get a choice. That's the thing. Like.

Right, but it's an either or choice. It's a Faustian choice. Right? It's a. Look, if you want to get out early, because we've got overcrowding and we've got, you know, a problem paying for all these prisons, it's very expensive to incarcerate people. If you want to get out on the minimum side of your sentence of, say, seven years or whatever. Right. Versus 20 years, I mean, that seems like an easy decision.

Yeah, I'd be for it. I mean, look, those who argue against it say that once you've done your time and you're going to be released, you know, you've done your time and you deserve to kind of get a fresh slate. I don't, you know, personally subscribe to that theory, but that's what those who support that do.

Yeah, I'm just kind of wondering. I mean, you know, it seems like there must be some logic, but. Yeah, I can imagine. These guys are just incredibly manipulative. Any other really stunning excuses. That's what I want to call them. Not reasons or, you know, justifications these guys have made. Yeah. For their crimes.

Well, I remember. I remember sitting down with a, With a convicted sex offender who re offended he had a bunch of victims down in Texas, and I remember sitting across from him and kind of reading the victim's statement out loud to him. And, you know, and I ended after reading off a laundry list of what this guy does. I said, so do you feel as if any of this is inappropriate? And he looked at me in the eye and he said, it depends what your definition of inappropriate is. I mean, and that's how the, you know, I just listed off a laundry list of some of the, you know, grossest acts that one could perpetrate, particularly against a child. And so then to, you know, to have his retort be. It depends what you define as inappropriate. I mean, gives you a good glimpse into the mind of a predator, Right?

Yeah, it sure does. But I just have to say, you know, for the record, I mean, you go to Middle Eastern countries and I mean, it's. I saw this disgusting video. I couldn't believe it. It's on YouTube and it was about some Middle Eastern country and all these men marrying these kids that are, they're so young. I mean, it's unbelievable. Five year olds, it's just unbelievable. And, you know, where there's no age of consent, there's no protection whatsoever.

I know, I know.

I can't believe that, you know, and so, you know, you put that guy over there and he can just lawfully do anything he wants. Right?

That's right. I remember When I was in America's Most Wanted, we did a case of a predator here who fled to India, to an area of India where they. Where sex tourism is a huge trade. And it's just. As you just mentioned. And it's just. It's horrible. Look, our system is flawed, but it's still the best criminal justice system in the world, in my opinion.

Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. Okay. So any other crimes or just interesting stories or. Yeah, I kind of like to. I don't know why I'm curious about this, but maybe it's a morbid curiosity. How do some of these guys get away? Like, whenever I hear about one of these, there was that show. I never got into it, but I know a lot of people did Prison Break. I'm thinking, how do they. I mean, these modern prisons are so good compared to.

Yeah, but you can have all the tech. Look, you can have all the security measures in the world, all the technology in the world. And most escapes come down to two things. Either, either faulty technology, meaning that alarms on doors weren't working, or something like that, or more likely, help from the inside. Yeah, I mean.

I mean, corruption again.

I did a case in. In Indiana where a woman named Sarah Pender escaped. She was a double murderer in for a hundred years, and she escaped. And how did she escape? She escaped by befriending a jail corrections officer, starting to sleep with him. And, you know, and there you go, he set up, you know, he actually helped her escape. She went on the run. She was on the run for six months before it tipped into America's Most Wanted caught her. So, I mean, the reality is, again, and I'm not suggesting that every correctional facility shouldn't do everything they can from a technological standpoint, but look, I mean, I actually just talked to a GEO guard the other day who told me that because of budget cuts, you know, they had nobody manning the towers inside the jail. So in other words, it was just a dummy. It was a dummy up there. There were no armed guards manning the towers, you know, looking. You know, looking out onto the. Onto the facility, and that's more and more common. So many security cameras aren't manned. You would be surprised. So many security cameras aren't manned. They don't record video. They're just there as a deterrent. But when push comes to shove, I've seen. I've covered so many cases of kids who were snatched where, you know, yeah, there's security cameras either on the side of a building or somewhere on the street corner, but either they were Broken or they never rolled tape or, you know, so I mean, you know, unfortunately, nothing is foolproof.

Well, do you deal with white collar crime?

I've covered everything, Yeah, I mean, I've covered everything. You look at the burning madoffs of the world, you know, speaking of white collar crime and bill talking bilking people out of a lot of money, I did a case again when I was in America's most wanted of a guy who preyed on the disabled and actually was a financial guy, but ended up bilking disabled people out of millions of dollars and then going on the run. He actually has not been caught to my knowledge. So look, bad guys come in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions. They just do.

What do you think about prison overcrowding? You know, we were talking about these guys getting out of prison and the budget cuts. And on one hand I want to say let's be tough on crime, but on the other hand, I think prisons, it's just become a business in this country. I mean, we've got the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized country. I know that maybe the highest incarceration rate in the world, I'm not sure. But this is just crazy. I mean, you know, like Alex Jones has that website, Prison Planet, and I'm, you know, thinking that's really what this country has become.

Well, you know, part of that is true and the reality is that private companies run a lot of our jails, a lot of our prisoners, prisons now, and they are for profit companies. However, the decision was made to hand many of our inmates over to these companies because they can do it more cost effectively than the government can do it. So I don't know that necessarily it's whether it's a private or public facility, but more so, yeah, I think we lock up many, many minor drug offenders. Shouldn't be, you know, shouldn't be in jail, shouldn't be in detention centers. I mean, prison should be reserved, in my opinion, for, you know, kind of the wor of the worst. Anybody with a gun crime, a sex crime, you know, those sorts of crimes. Victim crimes, not victim. That's crime.

Right, exactly, exactly. So I gotta ask you then, because we talked about a lot about the sex offender crimes. You probably think that, you know, at least maybe marijuana should be legalized, I would guess.

Well, look, I think that the war on drugs has been, you know, a tremendous failure. I think most people can agree on that.

I agree, by the way.

Look, that being said, I mean, I've been down to our borders many times and you Know, you can, you know, you, most of our borders, people think that there's some big walls separating our countries. And look, the reality is that most of our borders, especially the one that the ones that I think of firsthand. Yeah, New Mexico, Arizona, those are the borders I've been to with Mexico firsthand. You just walk across. I mean, nobody is, you know, so I think that the, the flow, it's awfully difficult to stop the flow of drugs into our country. So.

But you know, how to stop them is make it legal. Then there's no business for them.

Well, that's right. Unfortunately, if you legalize it, you are then accepting that. You're essentially accepting that it's going to be here and we have to find a way to regulate it if you can. You know, the government hasn't been all that effective in regulating most industries. So I'm not quite sure, I'm not quite sure that they could regulate the drug industry, but certainly, is it time to try something new? Maybe it is.

Well, I don't know what happened. And I'm going to be interested to see in a year, a couple of years, the stories of Colorado and Washington State, you know, who have legalized marijuana. Because I mean, my assumption, although I do not even know this, is it must be a lot less expensive to just go into one of these stores and buy it, you know, where it's legal. Right. I assume that, I assume that they take the money out of it when it becomes unprofitable, then all of the black market goes away, all of the drug trafficking goes away because it's just not, it's not profitable. So it's not an issue really of the government regulating it so much as just plain and simple free market economics. It gets cheap because it's legal.

Right. And it'll be interesting, it certainly will be interesting to see what happens in Colorado and Washington State for sure, as kind of the guinea pigs for this project.

Right, right. And that wanted, I mean, I want to kind of wrap circle back to a couple other things that you're working on. But I just wanted to ask you on that note, where we've got these private prisons, where we've got, you know, stories we hear now and then, they're not super common, but of the prison, the prisons have lobbies that are lobbying to make everything in America illegal. You know, and the lobbyists go and they go under the guise of, let's be tough on crime, you know, know, let's lower the, the drunk driving standard even more because it becomes this business it becomes lucrative. And so then you look at the, the whole issue, and I've kind of wondered about it lately, of prostitution. I mean, we've got this. I did a show on sex trafficking. Talk about disgusting. I mean, the human trafficking is, that's far worse than some predator who has a couple of victims. I mean, this is a, this is a business, a global business. Right. So, you know, it makes me think, you know, if you want to solve it, make it unprofitable for these scumbags, just destroy their business. I mean, I doubt there's any human trafficking going on in Amsterdam, for example. Right. Because, you know, it's legal.

So I don't know, it's definitely, it's an interesting way to look at it. And human trafficking. And look, it happened during the Super Bowl, I mean, so, you know, and frankly, a lot of people dismiss it because they say, well, these are at risk youth anyway. Well, I don't subscribe to that theory. I think everybody is equal. And whether you're an at risk youth from a poor family or you're a rich kid in a great private school, anybody, everybody should be treated equally.

So you're saying, and I didn't catch this part of the story, that people actually tried to justify that it was okay because the victims were at risk youths. Are you kidding?

Well, that's why it doesn't get as much media attention as other crimes. Because whether you call it sex trafficking or you call it forced prostitution or, you know, it's all about how you frame it. But that's certainly why it doesn't get the kind of media attention that it should, in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, very interesting. Well, in the Whitey Bulger case, just to kind of circle back to that for a moment, what happened to the FBI agents?

Well, John Connally is serving a prison sentence. He's appealing. And, you know, this is a case where a lot of people got deals, a lot of people got sweetheart deals to testify with. The irony being that none of them ever thought that they would have to come face to face with Whitey Bulger in a court of law, because nobody in that courtroom ever thought he was going to be caught. So, you know, one of the most fascinating dynamics of the case was watching these old time killers, you know, stare down each other. They hadn't seen each other for many times, 20, 25 years. These are men now in their late 70s and their 80s, and to watch that dynamic was quite fascinating. And to watch, you know, there were profanity, lace tirades in court between Witnesses. It was. It was fascinating.

Wow. I bet it was. I bet it was. Don't these guys at that age kind of just lose their mojo a little bit?

No, because you have pride. It's all about pride. It's about pride and image and legacy. And everybody in the Whitey Bulger case, including the FBI, are worried about pride, their legacy, how they'll be, you know, looked at in the future, you know, looking back on these three decades in Boston history.

Wow. Unbelievable. Just an amazing case. Really. An amazing case. John, tell people where they can find you and get the book.

Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Jason. You can go to whiteyontrial.com and you can see everything about the case and pick up our book. And for any true crime lover out there, I think they'll enjoy it because this was. It was a federal case, so it wasn't televised, so you can't see all of the action. So the next best thing is to read all the details. And we sure have all the details in there, including behind the scenes interviews with the jurors and with the attorneys, with the witnesses, with the killers, a letter from Whitey Bulger himself to myself, my co authors. So a lot of good stuff in there.

Fantastic. Very interesting. And you also have your website, johnlieberman.com as well, right?

That's right, I do. You can check that out for all of my other projects.

Fantastic. Well, John Lieberman, thank you so much for joining us today. Very interesting. Talking about some of these critical issues and we'll hope that getting the word out there about this stuff moves the needle a little bit.

I enjoyed it, Jason. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

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