501 FBF: Ebola Threat: Real or Hype? with Dr Lee Hieb

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It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Lee Heeb to the show. She is Iowa's libertarian candidate for governor and she is a practicing orthopedic surgeon. She has become kind of the go to person on the subject of Ebola. We've got to think, is this hype or is it a real threat that we all need to be very concerned about? Lee, welcome. How are you?

Well, very good. Thank you for having me.

Good, good. It's good to have you. And we tried our interview before on Skype and the connection just wasn't working so well. So we are on a cell phone and we'll do the best we can with sound quality here. Ebola. Real threat or a lot of hype?

Well, it is a real threat. I mean, right now I think we're all holding our collective breath to see how many people pop up with this. It's for which we have no vaccination and no treatment except supportive care. So we can take care of the onesies. Twosies, you know, the Eric Duncan. But the problem is if it starts spreading like wildfire, we've got problems. And you know, we have a lot of really smart people in the cdc. They really do know how to take care of this. The problem is the people that are in charge of the CDC and many government agencies are political and they're choosing to be politically correct and not really choosing the right medical answer. You know, I just tweeted out the link on my tweet feed about the CDC's article on quarantine. The problem is when you have no treatment for a disease, the only way you can get it under control. Something this bad is to stop the transmission. And that means stop the movement of people.

It's just got to be done. It's absurd to say that you're in self isolation like this doctor in New York and that self isolation consists of going in the subway and then going bowling. I mean, you have to ask yourself what's not self isolation? Vomiting and Macy's. I mean, it's just absurd. So we really have to, have to. And you know, it's not. I'm a libertarian. I believe strongly in libertarian principles and the Constitution. But you don't have the right to threaten somebody with a baseball bat. Even if you don't hit them with it, you can't just keep swinging at them. And essentially that's what you. When you've been exposed to something like Ebola. And let me tell you, the bioterrorist threat that is the most fearsome is smallpox. So if we can't handle this, this should be a non on the door. We have to have a system in place for dealing with these things because they're out there and they're bad guys that want to get hold of them. And in this case, they can get a hold of the agent. Now, for most Americans, let me just tell you, I'll tell you what I've told my boys about smallpox. And to a lesser degree, it's true about this. If this really starts cropping up in multiple cities, personally I would stop flying for a while. And the way you protect yourself is simply not going to the area of outbreak and not being in transit where people with the outbreak with exposure. This isn't something you need to duct tape your windows.

Flying is the same as cruise ships. I mean, a cruise ship would be dangerous as well, right?

Yeah. I mean, if there's really an outbreak that's not under control, I purposely wouldn't go on mass transit. That's exactly right. That's the first thing I would cut down. And you know, the solution in Liberia, this is the sad part, this could be solved in Liberia. What they need to do is they need to shut their borders. Not to people coming in and giving them help from the outside, but to them flying out. That's just common sense. And then the second thing is they need to stop transportation between cities and towns. And then in those towns where the Ebola that are considered hot zones where the Ebola is raging, you stop transportation between households and the role of the international community. Really, in my opinion, this is just my plan. But this is the tried and true plan we've used over centuries is then we bring medical care and food to your house. You don't move. So people that, you know, we could supply food and hazmat suits as to the rest of the international community and let people be taken care of in their homes, but don't have people running out foraging for food. That is what's going to cause this thing to keep continue. This would burn out in two months if we just. That's how it used to be when it was just in the jungle. It would just burn out in a couple months or less.

And it would burn out because the people who have it would. They die.

They would die. And you know, the sad truth is we can't make Liberia a first world medical facility in the time it would take to solve this problem. So what we have to understand is, and to some extent, we can't even save our own people. You know, look at we've had, I think we're up to 24 Doctors Without Borders and I think 16 are dead. So, you know, the problem is those who are going to die are going to die. Those that are going to live are going to live. But then it's going to be done. It's not kinder to fail to quarantine people and let this kill thousands.

Couldn't agree more. Of course, stop it now, okay, so let's talk about the treatment side of it. There is no treatment and no cure. But we've had a couple of recoveries, haven't we?

Well, you know, your ability to recover. I mean, they had done one. I shouldn't say there's no treatment. They have done one treatment now that seems to be helpful and that's they've taken blood transfusions from people who have survived Ebola and presumably have antibodies to it. That makes a lot of sense. You know, how much of that blood is available is the question that helps them. Again, when you have one or two victims, not if you have thousands. But.

I suspect that our survival in America is going to be much better than in Liberia based on sanitation and health, general nutrition. So our immune function is better. It's just like George Washington survived smallpox because he was just a tough dude and he had a great immune system. People, in the old days, the healthier you are, the better chance you have of surviving it. People have certain quirks of their immune system that may make them more susceptible or less susceptible. But it's right now it looks like this particular outbreak is about 50 to 55% fatal.

What can one do to strengthen their immune system?

Well, actually I have a. I don't know if you this, but I'm also fellowship trained in anti aging medicine and that's kind of my new career path and my big hobby and my semi retirement, but basically. And I have a book coming out called Surviving the Medical Meltdown, which is.

What to do when you don't have a doctor available in the future. Because I'm afraid that the medical system is about on the bridge of collapse. But the whole center of that book is exactly what you said, is how to be as healthy as you possibly can. I'm going to tell you, if I had to pick one thing to tell people the biggest, it seems to be one of the miracle hormones we have is vitamin D. It's not really a vitamin, it's really a hormone.

You said D, right?

D as in dog. Yeah. Okay, D3. It turns out that almost everybody's D is low. Unless you happen to be a native aboriginal that lives on the equator and wears a loincloth. Your D levels are low.

In other words, because that person, that aboriginal, spends a lot of time in the sun. Right?

The sun.

Yeah, but the problem is the sun. The sun has bad side effects too, like skin cancer. So getting the D from not just sun is a good idea.

Right, Right. And honestly, we just don't live a lifestyle that that would work for. It's not just about the hours in the sun. It's also that if you take baths, it takes the oils out of the skin. And there's lots of different things. A friend of mine who played 18 holes of golf six days a week in Arizona, where you are, I guess.

His D was 20, which is really, really low.

He wouldn't believe me until I kept telling him, you should take vitamin D. No, no, no, I play golf. Well, it didn't work. I take 10,000 units a day. It's been shown there's never been an overdose of 10,000 units a day of vitamin D3. And in the Japanese study they did about influenza, they showed that having vitamin D levels 11 was more protected than the influenza vaccine. Now, influenza is a virus also, and presumably it just seems to be that people that their D levels are up, have less diseases, including cancer. It turns out you get your vitamin d level over 55 and your risk of breast cancer goes down by 83%. We never hear that from the government agencies, but the truth is there's a lot you can do to make yourself healthy. And that's probably. If I had to pick one thing.

Vitamin D3 actually heals the telomeres, the ends of your DNA, so you have less replicative mistakes. So I get all my patients on that.

I have another show that I'm just launching called the Longevity show, and I am. Actually, I had my telomeres tested because, you know, I'm interested in doing research for my show. And fortunately, according to my telomeres, I'm a little younger than I really am, which is good news. But I started taking TA65, which is one of the other things they say you can do to lengthen the telomeres. I'm not exactly sure about that yet, but. But it is, it's fascinating.

Oh, yeah, no, this is. Well, yeah, no, that's very interesting. And I thought about doing that, but I'm not convinced about the drug. You know, I mean, if I were convinced about the drug, I'd test my telomeres. But, like, I'll hear from you to see what she said.

Yeah, I'm not convinced either, but the jury's out. I'll let you know in a year.

Yeah, yeah, definitely take D3. And, you know, other things. Obviously, good nutrition. Now I'm a real believer in eliminating gluten from the diet. I think when we look back in medicine in 30 years and I have a whole chapter about why your doctor's out of date in that book, and it has to do again with and I don't say this, this is why I'm a libertarian, is because I've seen what government does to everything and everything it touches. It poisons in some way and it makes. We're practicing 30 year old medicine. If you're doing a longevity show, you know this. But the standard medicine your doctor stand gives you is out of date because of and one of the main reasons is the government says the state medical boards, basically all states, say their standard of care is if you're not doing what 90% of your colleagues are doing, you're out of date. We consider you wrong. Well, in the old days we consider the 10% leaders in their field, but now we thump them. And so people tend to go back and use these old methods just not to get trouble. But it's not ideal. So I think we're going to look back and say gluten was a bad actor. It turns out there's no question that gluten is the cause of autoimmune disease like rheumatoid arthritis. Big Scientific American article on that a few years ago. There's books been written about that. But in my own experience, getting off gluten has changed lots of things in my health.

You can see it happening in people when they get off gluten. Lots of things get better. It's a constant foreign protein that attacks your immune system. Now it attacks people in different ways. But if you want to be as healthy as you possibly can, don't die from these bad viruses that are going around. That's one of the things to do, I think.

Okay. Okay. So D3 get off gluten. Take D3 get off gluten. Anything else? To become strong. Like you said, George Washington was just a tough dude. I think everybody wants to be tough when any sort of thing goes around. It's not just ebola, of course. Dr.

Right. Well, like I said, I think gluten is a huge one. And in general, get off the low carb diet or get off the high carb diet. I mean, we were meant to be meat and fat eater. Paleo really, I'm really the typical paleo diet person.

I think in general.

I think you need good sleep. And a lot of people we extend. There's a Great book by T.S. wiley called Lights Out. It's about the problems of us extending our daylight hours through electric lights. And we really screw up our hormone production and do a lot of bad things by trying to instead of living by the sun cycle, some of the healthiest people I know are the old farmer friends I have here in Iowa who live by the sun cycle. When it gets dark, they go to bed. When it gets light, they get up and go to work.

Being in harmony with nature is a great idea and I try to do that myself. Still can't seem to sleep long enough though. But you know, I do. I wake up a little bit before the sun usually and dim my lights in my home so that I naturally become tired in the evenings.

Oh, that's good. Yeah, no, that's the way to go. That's what Suzanne Somersault talking about how she dims her light. You know.

The pillars of anti aging medicine are basically good nutrition is the basis, good sleep, exercise. I think I love weightlifting. I think it's probably the most beneficial exercise you can do for yourself. We were meant to pick things up and put them down, heavy things.

And then take the right supplements. And if you're like, I'm 62, so it's bioidentical hormone replacement I believe in. So I do all those things and I feel pretty good. So I'm doing what I can. But the other thing is, like I say, if it gets to the point where this is really popping up all over the place, it's time to cancel that cruise, in my opinion.

What else should we know about Ebola? So be strong. Have a strong immune system.

More on the government's response and what the government is, you know, doing, not doing. Any criticisms of government?

Well, I mean, it's just insane for them. For the president, for example, to say you can't get it on a bus and then turn around and say, but don't get on a bus because you might give it to somebody. I mean, you know, I think a 10 year old can figure out the logical fallacy there. That's just, you know, we. This is not truly airborne. It doesn't go through vents. You know, smallpox, in the last known case in Europe, went out the window of a German hospital into another wing and killed some student nurses. That's airborne. This doesn't do that. But what it does do is.

It really comes out apparently in all of your body fluids, including sweat. Dr. Arnold said the other night, I heard him, he's one of the smart guys from the cdc and he said he knows two doctors who just touched a patient and was killed by the virus. This is not just like when they first came out and said, oh, this is bloodborne. They were making it like hiv. They were so worried about people being stigmatized they just so worried about the political correctness aspect. They're not being scientifically correct. It's not like hiv. Yes, it's in the serum, it's in the blood. But HIV doesn't come out in your sweat. It doesn't come out in your tears. Nobody gets it from that kind of casual contact. This you do. So that's the point. Now the other thing we don't know about it is how long it lives on. Fomites, meaning the intermediaries, inanimate objects. Like when Eric Duncan was in the emergency room checking in, did he chew on the tip of the pen? He had his hands all over. He would vomit it. He had his hands all over the desk. How long does the Ebola live on those surfaces? We don't know. There's one study I just read off the nih, the National Institutes of Health website. They said it lasted up to 50 days. Well, that could be a real problem. So I don't think we're out of the woods yet here, but I think it's looking better that we're not having a mass outbreak. So far, that's assuming our government is actually telling us about who is really coming down with this. I mean, I hate to be skeptical, but these guys have not been real forthcoming and they've kind of dissembled rather than be straight up about this. So I have to say I want to know what happens to his fiance, and I want a negative as well as a positive. It's a physician. When I wait to hear the news, that's the kind of thing I wait to hear from. Okay, he got home from touching Ebola patients, getting exposed to Ebola. He comes down with it. He has a fiance. Presumably they at least kiss. What happened to her? I want to know when I hear that.

How come we don't know that? Well, that's amazing. How come we know that?

You see, the silence is deafening. And that worries me a little bit because I think wouldn't the.

I mean, the media is not a lapdog. Well, not completely, but, you know, why wouldn't the media have figured that out by now?

You know, I.

Some ambitious reporter would be, you know, anxious to break that story, right?

Well, one would think. I tell you, I've had my own experiences with the media as a libertarian candidate for governor in Iowa. And you say they're not the lap dogs, but they get paid and make a lot of money from government and they don't go against the government. So, you know, in our state, it almost feels like there was an Edict that went out this cycle, don't even mention that nasty little word libertarian, because they keep pesky. They keep popping up, talking about the Constitution and things we don't want to talk about.

Hey, I, you know, when I, when I talked to Steve Forbes and one of his daughters, they just told me about the second time when he ran. It was a media blackout.

Yeah.

They just would not cover Steve Forbes. Right. Just absurd.

They have the power to tell people not to say things. Yeah. So I have to say we don't know if they. Now, the other side of it is, unfortunately, I. With some exceptions, and I don't mean to damn all science writers. There's some very good science writers out there, but most of, let's face it, most of the reporters that are covering this are just parroting what they're being told by somebody, and they don't really have the scientific background to think about that. I mean, maybe to me, it's an obvious question. We've heard a little bit about Duncan's family, but we haven't heard very much lately. I just want to know the negatives as well as the positives. So to know what to think. I know that the cost, I mean, if you look at what's happened at Bellevue Hospital, and this is what I've said, my governor in Iowa, who's been in power as long as Saddam, by the way.

The guy's a Republican, comes out and says, we're not going to quarantine Ebol. And I said, you know, I know this is not the hugest issue for us in Iowa, but really, what does that say? It says that he's willing to say to you, okay, you just got back from Liberia, you were treating Ebola patients, and now you can go work in the daycare again. You can go teach fifth grade or drive the public bus or be a checkout clerk at the grocery store. I mean, really, is that what he's saying? Because that is the alternative. There's not much in between. And, you know, and so what I said to them, what I've said, when people have asked me in Iowa about this, I said, look at what just the cost of this to New York City has been. Besides the subway cleansing and the bowling alley shutting down. Look at what Bellevue. Bellevue Hospital is about twice as big as the University of Iowa. I mean, it's huge. It's a huge hospital. I think it's bigger than St. Joe's and Phoenix. And it has two. It had to ship all its ICU patients to another hospital except for the two patients they're treating because it is so staff intensive to treat those two patients safely and because they don't want to cross contaminate anybody else. It is extremely. There's a huge cost to being stupid.

About that, that's for sure. Okay, so huge cost of being stupid. Certainly fair. I think everything you said about the government. Ebola's been around for a while, though. I mean, how is it that, you know, it seems like this is sort of a new. It's a different strain, Is that what you're gonna say?

Well, it's a different strain, but that's not the problem. The problem is transportation. See, it used to be that this would break out in these little isolated villages in sub Saharan Africa, and the villagers didn't go anywhere. They just all died in place, essentially. You know, maybe a few would, but they didn't go anywhere until the disease burned out. Maybe somebody would find a few people or whatever. We've looked for years, for decades, we've looked for the intermediary host somewhere in the jungle. And I'm not sure they know. I don't think they know yet. I mean, they looked at bat guano and all sorts of stuff.

Looked at what? So I didn't hear that.

Bat guano droppings from bats in caves. I mean, they tried to isolate it from something in some animal vector where it stays alive in between human outbreaks. And I don't think we know where that is yet. But the point is, what has happened is we've paved the highways now into the deeper jungle areas. And so now when somebody gets sick, there's more of a chance they transmit out. What happened in this case was a doctor actually went to one of these jungle villages, got contaminated, got infected, and he drove 82 miles out of that village to his local vil. He got sick and died. Contaminated, I mean, transmitted it to other people who went to the coast. And once it got in Monrovia and once it got into the coastal cities in Liberia, Katie by the door. That's when it got out of control, before anybody really knew what was going on. And then once they figured out what was going on, it's a pretty dramatic disease. Most of us have never seen it, the case, but those that have seen it say it's a pretty dramatic disease. You bleed out from your orifices and you just. Very dramatic. So that once they figured out what was going on, the problem is then you have to calm the fear and you have to. You have to contain it. And that's if they'd done it. Right. Initially it wouldn't have been this damaging, but they didn't contain it.

Right. Yeah. That's terrible. That really is anything more you want to mention about Ebola? Just, you know, do you want to talk about, you know, the, the military? I mean, what would happen next? Say it did get really bad. The other thing we've got to be afraid of is like an excuse to use martial law. Some say this is an excuse to get our troops into these African countries for other reasons. You know, what do you think about our military being over there, you know, and then bringing it back?

Yeah, I think that's really a mistake. I don't think this is the role of our military. And for once, where's the UN I mean, the UN is the World Health Organization is part of the UN. If there were once in a lifetime, the answer is the U.N. this is it. I mean, I just wonder why they don't use those.

The UN is a. I know it is.

But I'm just saying they always want to invoke the UN for all sorts of other things. But now they want us. You know, but I can't think, you know, personally I'm a little bit, I keep saying this and you know, I've said this several times, is that if the Obama administration were simply incompetent, then once in a while they would act on random chance alone in the security interest of America. But they never seemed to, you know, we've got our troops over in Afghanistan getting chewed up for no good strategic purpose. Now we're sending our. We've let our borders become porous to the point that we can't. We're getting other diseases by the way, like Chagas disease and multiple drug resistant tb, which is a horrible disease that's now that we've eradicated from America before pretty much and now is coming back. You know, thank you to this administration for leaving the borders open to these central South American disease victims. And now we're going to send away our National Guard. I mean, to me that's the perfect trifecta of just degrading your security. I'm sorry, I just don't get that.

And the other thing, I just worry about our troops because yeah, you can tell me they're not going to be. Finally they've come out and said what they're going to be doing over there. They sent them without telling us really what they were going to be doing. Okay. They're going to be building shelters and stations for taking care of the disease. Okay, fine. And Good. But they are in an endemic country. They're not going to be. Well, maybe they are, but our experience in the past with military in disease prone areas is they get the disease to some degree. I mean, whether we're talking HIV or malaria, we've not been able to contain it and keep it out of our troops. In the past, and I was in the Navy, but in the past, like when we did extractions, and it was generally the Navy Marine Corps team that would do that in the seals, it would be an amphib ship off the coast of Liberia that would be the backup. So it looks like what they're planning on doing now is if somebody gets sick. I noticed that the military now is building these modules that they shipped the doctor back from Africa. It's an isolation module. It's a one person shipment. It cost like $100,000 or something to get him back. And it was for one person. Well, if you really had a lot of people that you needed to ship back, that wouldn't be the way to do it. So I guess the company that's building that built those modules now is building these troop size modules that can fit into a troop transport, I guess with 11 or 12 at a time. You know, we need, I guess we're going to, if we're going to do this, I mean, they have to be. You have to have support for the troops. And in general, in America, if this really did become a big problem, I think we could afford to have a. We need to have a center that does nothing but treat Ebola patients if it gets like that. Because again, you can't shut down every major hospital in America to treat two patients. And that's what we've seen at Bellevue. You know, there are only four hospitals in America that actually have isolation units that can treat these things, you know, like they would do at a high level facility. So I think that's what we would have to do.

Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. The only problem is we would have to move the Ebola patients and. Yeah, this is just a huge problem. No question.

Yeah. That we can do with these isolation units that we can do. I'm not worried about that. And we actually have. On your Omaha, they actually pull a patient into UNMC because they're one of the four hospitals, University of Nebraska Medical Center. So that, you know, when, see the thing of it is, and this is the other piece of disinformation, I think that the government put out. Oh, everything's fine. We have protocols as if a protocol, as if giving A hospital that's never dealt with these people, this disease, a piece of paper that tells you the steps to take is really going to answer the situation. No, you need equipment, training and leadership, all of which we're lacking. But of course, it's like, in all fairness, it's like the first shots in a war never go well because you're not expecting it. But when they were talking about, oh, we have precautions, they were talking about hospital gowns, paper gowns, latex gloves and non occlusive masks. That's what we use to help prevent staph and pseudomonas in the hospital. That is not adequate for Ebola. It never was. And that's what they sent the nurses in with. I think the problem there is it's hard to take them off without contaminating yourself. In the real level four containment facilities like Fort Detrick, what they had is they have biocontainment suits that are washed down and decontaminated before you take off the suit. Well, now, now I guess they're getting more of those out there. But, you know, that's the right. I mean, I hear the CDC starting to squeak and say the right things, like, we're going to send, we're not expecting you guys to know how to do it. We'll send a team to you if you have a case. Good idea, guys. That's what you should have done first place.

Yeah, right, exactly. Too, too little, too late. It's, it's a common, common problem. Talk a little bit about your candidacy, if you would, for just a moment, since you are a doctor. Of course Ron Paul is a doctor. He's a politician I followed for many years. What are your thoughts about your own candidacy? You know, just what you're working on and then, you know, any mentions on Obamacare because it's, you know, we're talking politics and doctors. So that's a good mix.

Well, you know, Ron Paul is actually a fellow member of the association of American Physicians of Surgeons. I'm one of the past presidents of that organization. And we're kind of a libertarian arm of the, of the better organized medicine. We're the people that actually believe that medicine is between a doctor and a patient, not between a doctor and a government bureaucrat and a patient. And we're the free market arm of organized medicine. So, you know.

Being a libertarian is kind of a process of becoming kind of like Buddhist enlightenment. I always tell people, you know, I was a lifelong Republican. I mean, I was a very conservative person. And people say, why did you leave The Republican Party. And I said, well, I didn't really leave them. They left me. I'm still standing on the Constitution.

To.

Coin the Ronald Reagan phrase. I love that. When he left the Democrats.

Yeah, I didn't know I'd stolen that from him. You know, I live in a state where we have a Republican governor who has been our governor for the most part of the last 25 years, yet we have the highest corporate tax rate in the nation, which possibly makes us the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Isn't that sad? We have one of the top personal tax rates. We just got in the last budget cycle, the biggest budget increase in the history of the state. You know, we have 20% more government workers per capita in the state of Iowa than they do in California. This is bad. We are regulated from the time we get up in the morning till the time we go to bed at night. And it's by unelected immortal boards. It's not your elected officials. It's like Professor Hamburger at Columbia Law School says about it. It's the abrogation of constitutional authority. It's just taking authority into the governor's hands and setting up these administrative offices that do exactly what the Constitution prohibited. And that is, there's only supposed to be three ways you make law. And it should start in the legislative body. You shouldn't be able to just set up. And Obamacare is a perfect example of this, as is Medicare.

It's not what the legislators wrote. Like, you know, I was on John Stossel years ago when Obamacare was first published, and he brought out this big clump of papers and put it on the desk like, you know, this is good sleep medicine for your kids. Read them this bill. And he said, 2,800 pages. And I said to him, I said, you know, that's not really important. That could be an untranslated Greek ode, Obamacare. What you really need to know is it's the one line that says, we authorize Health and Human Services to write administrative code to carry the force of law. And that's what we have at all levels of government, but especially our state has really gone for this. And here we are in Iowa. Raw milk is illegal. I tell people, if raw milk is illegal.

How do you think you're going to be allowed to choose your health care? Or how are you going to be able to carry a weapon? I mean, let's take back our state for liberty. That's why I'm in this race. And honestly, I think we've done A lot. You know, the first thing we've done is we've raised the consciousness of Iowans. And I know that's happening because a lady was heard at the grocery store the other day saying, you know, I didn't know it, but I think I might be a libertarian. You know, when I started, when I started in this race, people thought libertarians wore tinfoil hats and were all about marijuana, libraries, legalization. So we've moved the ball, we've moved the football forward, and we've shown them no, we're about liberty, constitutional liberty, and that no matter what your issue is free people do it better, and we just have to get back our individual liberty. The other thing I think we've exposed. You were talking about the media.

We've been having a lot of fun with Iowa Public tv, but they exclude. This year, they completely excluded all third parties and independents from the debate. Now, I was one of the nine states again. When you have. What I've learned in this, I guess, is my process of becoming. What I've learned in this is we have two big parties and they may look like they're different. They may act in public like they're different on social media.

Oh, they're the same thing. They're the same thing. Practically.

You know, not just practically. Get this one. You can't make this stuff up in the state of Iowa right now. Jack Hatch, the Democrat challenger, is the business partner of the governor, the Republican governor's biggest contributor. So not only.

Oh, my God. Yeah, you can't make that.

So basically, because we've been. At first we wondered, why is there no evidence of campaign workers for Jack Hatch? Well, it turns out he's never been running against the governor. He's been running with him. It's been a fix. It's like wwf, you know, World Wrestling.

You know, that's exactly the analogy I always use. You know, it's like a wrestling match match. It's all just fake.

It's a fake opposition, you know, and.

I didn't realize how fake it was and how criminal this whole enterprise was until I got really into the race. And I've been watching it, and they've. Because he owns the opposition, except for me. And because he owns the media. I mean, they control the electoral process, the political machine. And I don't care if your sister Teresa, if you've been in power for 20 years, you've taken over the electoral process. That's an evil thing. That is.

To individual liberty and to us maintaining liberty for our children. We need to Stop this. So if for no other reason, you need to vote differently. That's it. I mean, you can't keep going down that road. So anyway, Iowa public TV refused to have us in the debates and they have all these apparently objective criteria to exclude us. And one of them is you have to be a member of a real party. Well, guess what? The Iowa legislature, conveniently the two big parties voted not. So left the Libertarian to be a real party, even though the third biggest party.

How convenient. Are real. I mean, I mean, can you believe how disgusting that is? A real party? Who is it for them to decide what a real party is? How about if the people decide that? You know, this is unbelievable. The two party system is a complete scheme. It's just window dressing. It's just window dressing. Unbelievable.

Well, and it's funny to me, and I say this as a recovering Republican, it's funny to me that I always thought we were the party of Prince and we complained about the Democrats using the Saul Alinsky principle of it's never the issue, it's always about consolidation of power. But now that I'm outside, I see the Republicans doing exactly the same thing. And I'm not denigrating the grassroots guy, I'm talking about at the level of Governor up, the people that are running for national office, the big national parties and the big state parties. It's about staying in power. It's not about doing the best for the state or the nation that I can see, you know. You know, I mean, we're seeing commercials that say I gave you the biggest tax cut in the history of the state. No, Governor, you gave a few of your crony capitalist buddies the biggest tax cut. They didn't give tax cuts to everybody. They gave tax cuts to a few of their friends at the expense of all of us. And I suspect that in your state and every state that's going on to one degree or the other. So in general, I would say it's. Before I tell people this election cycle particularly, it's more important to be attached to your liberty, less attached to your political party. And let's take down the two party system. 60% of people want a third party on the ballot. People pride themselves in saying we vote for the candidate, not for the party. Let's really start doing that. And that's been the message we've been trying to get out. And I think it's been good. And along the way we're making fun of Iowa public TV because we have a little Big Bird video where Big Bird is invited to join the Good Birds Club and he thinks he should be able to go, oh, because he's a good bird, eats his vegetables and does things for his mommy. But when he gets there, his feet are too big. Objective criteria. So it's been kind of fun.

Very good point. Well, Lee, give out your website and tell people where they can learn more about your campaign.

Yeah, I'm at www.Heb. it's iBefore. So it's heb2014or.com he2014.com and you know, join us on Facebook and Twitter where really most of the action is. But all the issue papers and all the stuff is on the website and we appreciate anybody's that wants to help. You know, if we're going to save America, we got to save one state at a time and we're trying to make that be Iowa right now.

Excellent. Fantastic. Well, Lee, thank you so much for joining us today.

Well, thanks for inviting me. This has been fun.

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