542: Dr. Kaeberlein - Coronavirus Treatments & Life Extension

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Welcome to the Holistic Survival show with Jason Hartman. The economic storm brewing around the world is set to spill into all aspects of our lives. Are you prepared? Where are you going to turn for the critical life skills necessary to survive and prosper? The Holistic Survival show is your family's insurance brand. Better Life. Jason will teach you to think independently, to understand threats and how to create the ultimate action plan. Sudden change or worst case scenario, you'll be ready. Welcome to Holistic Survival, your key resource for protecting the people, places and profits you care about in uncertain times. Ladies and gentlemen, your host, Jason Hartman.

The medium of exchange in the world is money. And it is a very handy medium of exchange at that. A very powerful tool, useful tool. We have a doctor on the show today and we're going to talk with him about COVID 19 and how you can stay better immune to it and why age matters. Why age matters. And we're going to talk about senescence and quite a few things like that that I think you'll find very interesting. We're also going to play this interview on my longevity and biohacking show as well. Wow. Lot of announcements. As you know, we are going seven days a week now, at least for the foreseeable future. We have a lot to share with you this weekend. We are going to be talking about how you get your bailout. You know, the sba, the Small Business Administration, is providing potentially forgivable loans. That means they're just giving you money, you don't have to pay it back maybe. Okay, so there are some ins and outs to this and more is coming out as we go. So keep listening to the show. But this weekend we will have CPA Peter De Gregory coming back to the show to talk about the bailouts available to you. And you might be surprised, you might not think you have a business that qualifies. Remember, real estate investing is a business, okay? So you might qualify for this. And there are a couple of programs available. We're going to talk about that this weekend. So make sure you are tuning in over the weekend, as we are now seven days a week. Five days is just not enough. We have too much to share with you. There's way too much going on in the world right now with all this craziness. So check that out this weekend. And many of you went ahead and signed up for the tax sale course. So congratulations to you. Please check back in with me. Let me know how that is going for you. I'd love to hear more@jason hartman.com Ask jason hartman.com Ask and we have another thing that many of you have been asking for. Coming up on Tuesday, we have a webinar to get you funding for real estate deals, for living expenses for a business, for whatever. This is not part of the SBA program that we'll be covering this weekend on the show. This is a special webinar. Tuesday, 2:00 Eastern Time. Tuesday at 2:00 Eastern Time. I'm going to give you a bitly link for that so you can sign up for it. I've checked out a lot of these companies over the years. Many of them have pitched me and I am co hosting this webinar with this one because after checking their references, I got some good references and a lot of these out there are just hype, hype, hype. This one because it's a done for you process. I really like that. That's kind of like our style of real estate investing, right? You know, we're going to be with you. We're going to stick with you all the way through the process. And for years and years after you buy your properties, we are here for you, okay? And so many of these gurus and info marketers are out there. They just sell you a bunch of pipe dreams, charge you way too much money and send you on your way. I don't like that model. So that's never the way we've operated. We're always here with you through thick and thin. And believe me, there have been some thin times for our investors and we're happy to help them. Even if you purchased a property somewhere else. If you need advice, if you need help, we're here for you. Jason hartman.com, any of the web forms will put you in contact with one of our investment counselors. Or just call us at 1-800-HARTMAN. That's 1, 800, HARTMAN. Of course, that number only works within the U.S. so if you're outside of the U.S. use the website. We have listeners in 189 countries, so feel free to contact us one of those ways. But here is the link. Write this down. We'll put it in the show notes as well. But hey, I know most of you probably aren't driving while you're listening to this because your car insurance company is giving you a refund because driving, the whole subject of driving has plummeted by 50%. Yes, I've got this car in the garage. And you know, listen, I don't really have any consumer debt, but I do believe leasing your car is really the best deal. So I've got this car in the garage with a $1,116 month lease payment. I never drive the thing. Why do I even own a car? I even wonder sometimes. And I know for most of you that's not the case, but my life hasn't changed much since the quarantines began. It's pretty similar to how it was before. So anyway, I know you can probably write this down. Here it is. You ready? It's pretty short. It's bit ly, you know, bit ly bit ly Tue for Tuesday 2:00pm ET for Eastern Time. So bit ly bit ly Tue for Tuesday to the number 2:00pm ET for Eastern time. So bit ly Tue 2PMET there's your link for Tuesday's webinar. I think you're really going to like this, so get yourself signed up for that and we'll fill you in on all the details. Oh yes, one more thing before we get to our guest today and this is a good one. So I think you're going to enjoy the interview quite a bit. I have been predicting the migration and out of high density living environments. And guess what, there is an article that our client, and now she, now she's working for us too. Lisa posted in our content group, our private content group for the Venture alliance members and so forth and it is from Fast Company and it is entitled Coronavirus. People in tall Buildings may be more at risk High occupancy buildings like towers and hospitals. Now I'm really referring to living environments. If you got to go to the hospital, go to the hospital. Okay, you're not going to be able to help whether that's a high rise or not, probably. But it says like towers and hospitals could be a hidden risk in the battle against COVID 19 and one of our Venture alliance members that you've heard on the show before, Mike, he is the hard money lender that you've heard on the show and real estate investor and he just left a message in our chat group about how he really, you know, he lives in New York City in Brooklyn and how he really just does not want to go in elevators anymore, how elevators are the danger point. And that's what I've been saying. He mirrored exactly what I've been saying. So folks, look, there are two opposing forces here and when you go to pandemicinvesting.com. and you listen to my interview there with George Gammon. It's almost two and a half hours long. And then you join us for our upcoming webinar on pandemic investing, which will be different than that. These are two different things. You're going to learn about the two opposing forces in the economic and real estate investing sphere. Okay, here are the two forces. You know, I've talked about the two forces for the inflation deflation battle before over the years. The inflationary force is government spending. Bad fiscal and bad monetary policy. Those are very inflationary. But the deflationary force that is the opposition in this battle for whether or not we will have inflation or deflation is technology. That's the deflationary force. Right. And globalization would be tied in with technology. While now we see not only this migration that I'm talking about, but we see a de globalization trend coming, which was really part of Trump's platform years ago. But now he's going to get what he wants because number one, he's very likely to be reelected or love him or hate him. You know, Joe Biden, come on, are you serious? I mean, Joe Biden has got serious issues. He just is not fit to be president. Okay. And you may hate Trump and fine and dandy. This is not a political statement. I'm just saying, look, Joe Biden is like, just not with it. Okay? He's not with the program, regardless of political ideology. That's not even my comment. Okay, so Trump is likely to be reelected. The coronavirus issue is going to push for a shortening of the supply chain. It's going to bring a lot of jobs back to the US Even faster than Trump has been trying to. And it is going to lead to de globalization. Guess what? Producing things in the US Is more expensive than making them in China. So what do you think that means when you go shopping? It means in flation. Okay. Inflation. And we are going to see many inflationary forces. Many, many, many, not the least of which is what we're talking about this weekend, the bailouts and how you can get your share of the bailout. Okay, so join us this weekend for that. Gosh, a lot going on. You've got the link for Tuesday's webinar. Join us for that. Where you can get up to 50 or even $250,000 in funding. 0% interest start rate. You can use it however you want. It's a done for you program. Check it out. You're going to like that on Tuesday. A lot of you have been asking for that, and I just have searched for years and never felt really very good about any of the companies out there offering it. So I feel better about this one. So check that out. And I'm co hosting that webinar Tuesday this weekend. We've got the SBA bailout stuff and gosh, what else? Pandemic investing. We got some stuff coming up on that. So there's a lot happening, folks. I'm sorry to throw all this at you. I know it's a lot, but hey, there's a lot going on in the world. We're going to get through it. Be safe, be strong. This will pass. You know, when we were in the thick of the Great Recession just 10, 12 years ago, everybody thought the world was falling apart. And they always think it's falling apart, right? It's always darkest before the dawn, as the saying goes. And you know what? In just a few months, probably we will look back on this time and think, wow, the world is moving on. People are investing, they're buying things, they're getting their jobs back. The world is going back to work and everything is moving on. Right? But it's going to move on differently. And that's what we're going to prepare you for as we go forward. But life does go on. So the thing to do is don't panic, stay focused, and, you know, just make stuff happen. Okay? That's the important thing. Keep good counsel, make stuff happen, be calm, et cetera, et cetera. So let's dive in to our guest today and let's talk about some important medical issues, how you can stay safe and healthy. And here we go. It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Matt Kaeberline. He is professor of pathology, biology and biogerontology, best known for his research on evolutionarily conserved mechanisms of aging at the University of Washington. He's co director of the University of Washington Nathan Schoch, center of Excellence in Basic Biology of Aging and the founding director of the Healthy Aging and Longevity Research Institute. He's also co director of the Dog Aging Project. We're going to talk today about coronavirus and age and why those two are connected in such an important way. And also we're going to talk generally about longevity and general good health as well. Matt, welcome. How are you?

Thank you. I'm doing very good.

How are you? It's good to have you. You're located in Seattle, right?

That's right.

Yep. Excellent. So when we talk about aging, you know, most of us think, well, the body just kind of over time, it Sort of breaks down and it's just not as effective. Our cells don't reproduce as much. They don't reproduce properly. The copy machine doesn't work as well. In other words, when we age. Right. But, you know, we've heard a lot in the news with the coronavirus pandemic of how older people are at higher risk, But I don't know if anyone knows exactly why that is. What is the mechanism by which older people, you know, stand a greater chance of maybe becoming infected? Or is it just complications from infection? Give us all the distinctions. We need to really understand this, if you would.

Sure. So, I mean, I think the first thing to talk about is what you alluded to, which is the perception that aging is just something that happens. It's a sort of a random breakdown over time. And that's not actually the case. What we know now is that there is a real biology of aging. And what I mean by that is that in many ways, aging is a regulated biological process. And we've learned a lot about what the molecular mechanisms are that cause cells and tissues to decline in function and eventually stop working with age. And in the context of coronavirus, as well as other related viral diseases like influenza, which is much more common, it's those molecular mechanisms of aging that are really leading to the enhanced susceptibility and risk of the elderly. We know that one of the things that happens during aging as a consequence of these molecular, what we call hallmarks of aging is that there's a decline in the function of the immune system, which is sometimes referred to as immunosenescence. And it's probably that decline in immune function that is really leading to the enhanced risk of elderly people developing significant complications to things like influenza and coronavirus, combined with the fact that their other tissues and organs are also no longer functioning optimally. And I think that's where this observation that people who have underlying age related conditions like diabetes or heart disease are more likely to have significant complications from coronavirus. There's also a related point here, which I think is very important. There's been a lot of enthusiasm for the idea that, you know, within 12 to 18 months, the scientific community can develop a vaccine for coronavirus. And the idea that that will somehow, you know, take care of the problem. But I think it's important to recognize that not only are elderly people more susceptible to getting infections, they're also less responsive to vaccines. That's true for the flu vaccine, and it's going to be true for a COVID 19 vaccine. And so While, you know, I absolutely support the goal of developing a vaccine and being able to vaccinate a large percentage of the pop because of the biology of aging, that still isn't going to completely deal with the challenge that we have that elderly people are still going to be more likely to contract the disease and ultimately develop severe complications because of the disease.

Okay, so did we really unpack why elderly people are more like, why does their immune system decline? The word senescence is what you used, right?

Yeah.

Okay. The thing I'm really getting to there, Matt, is I don't care as much. Why is, can we fix it? Can we overcome that disadvantage?

Right. So, yeah, both. Both good questions. The why part rapidly delves into complicated biology. So I'll try to keep it fairly high level. We know about evolutionarily conserved pathways that become dysregulated with aging, and these lead to types of molecular damage that appear to play a fundamental role in the ag. And you'll sometimes hear these referred to as the hallmarks of aging. So there are between eight and 10 of these, depending on who you talk to. The point being not so much specifically what they are, but the fact that the field has figured out to a large extent what the problems are at a molecular level that are driving these declines in function, one of which is immune senescence. So the question of what can we do about it? That's what has me most excited, and I think many of my colleagues in the field most excited is we now know of interventions that. That either can delay this process, the biological aging process, or in some cases, actually, reverse components of biological aging. Now, that's all been done in laboratory animals at this point. So obviously the big question is how well will this translate to people? But I think there are some reasons to be optimistic. And so I'll give you an example. Again, coming back to immune function and coronavirus, There's a drug called rapamycin, which I study quite a bit, which in mice has been shown to rejuvenate the aged immune system. And specifically in the context of an influenza vaccine. So it turns out, just like in people, if you take an old mouse and you give it a flu vaccine, it doesn't work very well. There's about a 70 to 80% chance that an old mouse will not respond to the vaccine. If you give that same old mouse six weeks of treatment with rapamycin, what's been published is there's 100% chance that that mouse will now respond to the vaccine. So there's a specific intervention that can be Given in that context to an old mouse for a short period of time, that then allows that immune system to function like it was a young immune system. And if that translates to humans, I think it's fairly obvious how that could be, you know, in some ways a game changer for infectious diseases that the elderly are particularly susceptible to.

Okay, so it can be overcome to some extent. Right, right.

So I think it's important to differentiate between functional measures of aging and the molecular aging process. So what I was just talking about is a functional measure of aging, Functional meaning how well does the immune system respond to a vaccine for that particular functional measure? In the experiment that was done, it was a full recovery. In other words, that particular function went back to functioning as well as a young mouse. Certainly that's not the case. And there's no intervention that we know of yet that for every functional measure of aging can cause an older mouse to function like a young mouse. And personally, I think that's unlikely to. We're unlikely to ever see that, or at least in the near future to see something that is a true whole body rejuvenation therapy. Biologically, that's possible, but we don't have any interventions right now that are able to do that. So absolutely it is the case that these are segmental or partial rejuvenative therapies. And I think it's fair to say we don't completely understand at a molecular level how they're working. So we can see that the function gets better, but we're still figuring out exactly how that's happening inside the cells.

What therapies are you working on to develop these, you know, to combat the age related diseases?

Yeah. So I think as a whole, there are taking the field as a whole, there are probably half a dozen interventions or so that are, that have been shown by multiple labs in multiple studies to have an impact on the biological aging process. My lab is most interested in the role of MTOR signaling and rapamycin is a drug that inhibits mtor. And that I would certainly say is the gold standard in the field right now for an intervention to slow or reverse aspects of aging. Another area that we're very interested in is cellular senescence and the consequences of cellular senescence. Other people are studying dietary interventions like caloric restriction or intermittent fasting, which we hear a lot about. Other people are studying things like NAD precursors. So there are a relatively small number of interventions that I think are kind of on the front line. And then there are many labs that are trying to develop either related or alternative strategies to target these hallmarks of aging. So one way to think about this is sort of at a fundamental level, the goal is to try to identify either drugs or lifestyle interventions that have an impact on these molecular hallmarks of aging in the direction that we want them to go, which is to either slow down the declines in function that go along with aging, or in some cases, as I've already alluded to, we can actually see functional improvements from that age state. And so I think, again, I'm optimistic about the fact that new interventions are still being developed. But what I'm most excited about is knowing whether or not the interventions that we have right now can have an impact on health and longevity in people.

I know this is anybody's guess probably, but whenever you look at a graph of, say, the economy or sales or something like that, occasionally you have this kind of inflation inflection point. You have this hockey stick. And is that going to happen in the area of longevity research anytime soon? Where are we? I mean, I've been hearing about it for 15 years that we're on the verge of some major breakthroughs. The telomere subject has been a big one of those and all of these different things. Right. Are we. Are we close to something? Do you feel that way? I guess nobody knows for sure. Otherwise that would be a hot stock tip. But, yeah, yeah.

So I think, first of all, it depends on what you're referring to as the breakthrough. Right. So we can separate, you know, the research side, the sort of scientific understanding of aging, and work that can be done preclinically from the clinical side. So I would say on the preclinical side, we're probably already there. I think that most people in the field would agree that over the last 10 years, there has been remarkable progress in molecular understanding of aging and identification of key pathways and interventions that work in laboratory animals. That's not to say we don't have a lot still to understand, but I think we've sort of hit that inflection point on the sort of preclinical, basic science side, the clinical side, like, when are we going to actually have therapies that will significantly impact human health? And longevity is much harder to predict. And it's one of the things that makes it challenging to predict is just the nature of translation and the way that we regulate and test drugs and other interventions in humans. So I'll give you a specific example to illustrate this. There's a company called Restore Bio which has been working in this area of immune function in the elderly and using an intervention similar to rapamycin. And so they went through two FDA phase two trials, both of which showed convincingly that their intervention could rejuvenate immune function in healthy elderly people. And the idea was that this could eventually be used as an intervention to boost flu vaccine response. So two solid phase two trials, hundreds of patients all over the world, and then they went to phase three and they modified their trial design. They used a different drug and that trial failed. This was fairly recently that this happened. And so now they've essentially shut down that whole line of research, which I think is very unfortunate, because probably the rapamycin like drug worked. So there's probably a drug that could actually rejuvenate immune function in the elderly, but it's not being developed for that because of the extreme high cost of going through the FDA clinical trials process, which I'm not arguing against. I think that's an important process. It's just a fact that it costs a lot of money. And rapamycin is off patent, so there's no profit incentive for a company to come in and actually do the kinds of clinical trials that are required. So my feeling is we probably have interventions now that could have a significant impact on health and longevity in people. What I'm uncertain of is how we actually move those forward given the landscape for clinical trials and testing of interventions like this. And there are lots of challenges in that space which probably go beyond this conversation. There are lots of reasons why a trial to promote healthy longevity in healthy olderly people is problematic because we're used to treating sick people, not quote, unquote, healthy people, which is one of the.

Sad things about Western medicine. It's very reactive in nature, isn't it?

Well, yes, it is. And I think also there is a completely understandable mindset, but one that needs to be shifted, which is this idea that elderly people are healthy, they're healthy for their age. But I guarantee you, if you look at the average 80 year old, in essentially no functional way is that average 80 year old equivalent to an average 30 year old. So I think we have to change the reference point.

Even the super fit 80 year old like Jack Lalanne when he was alive. Right. Or one of these triathlon athletes or whatever, there's no beating aging, is there?

Well, nobody's done it yet.

Well, I don't mean forever. I just mean, I mean while you're alive, during your lifespan, you know.

Yeah. That is also why I was careful to use the word average in there. I think there are outliers. There are certainly people who age exceptionally well for their chronological age. So I don't want to say that for any given functional measure, there will never be an 80 year old that could be better than an average 30 year old. But when you look across the population, there is no functional measure where 80 beats 30. I think that's safe to say. So I think that's right, that there is no beating the aging process, at least so far. But I also feel like there's reason to be optimistic that we can do tangible things to delay or in some cases reverse those declines that go along with aging.

All right, good. What else do you want to tell people? A question I haven't asked you any area of the field.

Well, so I mean, again, I think that the message that I try to get across to people is this idea of what I think of as 21st century medicine. So 20th century medicine, 19th century medicine, 18th century medicine, going all the way back, has really been focused on waiting until people are sick and then trying to either treat or cure their disease. And by and large that has failed miserably. We can cure some individual's diseases, but if you look at the major age related diseases that are the leading causes of death and disability in every developed country, we have been universally unsuccessful at curing them. And I believe we will continue to be unsuccessful. And that's because we haven't considered the thing that is the greatest risk factor for those diseases, which is biological age. And until we consider biological age in our approach to these diseases, we're going to continue to fail. And so I really hope, and I think that we're starting to see this permeate the sort of mainstream medical thinking. I really hope that there will be a paradigm shift to considering why is it that biological age is the greatest risk factor. Whether or not age causes cancer and Alzheimer's disease and cardiovascular disease, that isn't the question necessarily. I think we can all agree that biological age is at least permissive for these diseases. And unless we figure out why that's the case and do something about it, we're going to be unsuccessful at really effectively treating these diseases. And so I think that's kind of the big picture that hopefully will gradually sort of permeate the medical consciousness and the public consciousness, because I think that's what it's going to take to really see substantial resources be put towards this problem.

Okay, what's the dog aging project?

So the dog aging project is really, it's a project that was started out of the university Of Washington at Texas A and M University, with the goal of understanding the biology of aging in pet dogs or companion dogs, and starting to ask whether or not we can actually have an impact on biological aging in pet dogs. So there's two components to the dog aging project. One is a nationwide, large scale longitudinal study of aging. It's completely observational, so we're not asking owners to change the way that they interact with their dog or anything about the dog's lifestyle. It's really an effort to track as many dogs as possible as they go throughout their normal life to try to understand what are the most important genetic and environmental factors for healthy longevity in pet dogs. And then there's a clinical trial of rapamycin, the drug that I've already talked about, to try to answer the question, does rapamycin slow aging in pet dogs? So that's sort of an overview of the dog aging project. We've been very fortunate in the last couple of years to get a large grant from the national institute on aging to really push this forward. So the longitudinal study is designed to enroll tens of thousands of dogs. So it's going to be very large. And the rapamycin clinical trial will be a trial of 500 dogs, which is powered to answer the question whether rapamycin can increase lifespan. So lifespan is our primary endpoint in that study.

Yeah, very interesting. An observational project on dog's life. I mean, a lot of people, including myself, would love to see their dogs live a much longer life. It's sad that we have to lose them after about 15 years you know, each time. But jellyfish seem to have discovered the fountain of youth, haven't they? There are some creatures that just, they have longevity down. What can we learn from them, if anything?

Right, so that's it. That is absolutely an important and active area of the field where people are studying organisms that seem to have unique strategies to the aging process. So there are long lived clams, for example, that can live 500 years, or some whales that can live 100, 200 years. So why is that? Yeah, right. So I think that the answer is, you know, we really don't know. I think in the case of jellyfish, hydra, animals like that, that have been talked about as being, quote, unquote, immortal, in those cases, what seems to be happening is that they have stem cell populations that can divide sort of forever. But I think that the question that remains is whether or not that strategy could be applied to a complicated animal like dogs or people. That's still unknown because our stem Cells differentiate into the differentiated cells, which then go on to have their specific functions for our bodies. I think it's a little bit unclear whether that particular strategy could be applied directly to a complicated animal, but absolutely, we can learn lessons about preserving our stem cells during aging so that those cells can then continue to go on and do their jobs. I think what we know is that, at least in mice and dogs and people, as we get older, Our stem cells don't function as well as they used to. We've learned a lot about why that's the case. And if strategies can be developed that preserve or restore stem cell function, Then those strategies could absolutely be beneficial for delaying or reversing Some of the functional declines that go along with aging. So this comparative biology of aging, by looking at lots of different types of animals, Some of which have developed very unique strategies to combat the challenges of aging, Absolutely have the potential to lead to both a better understanding of the aging process and interventions that may be beneficial in humans.

Could the problem be solved if you had the ability to just conduct any type of experiment, which maybe you can't conduct now because it would hurt someone, for example, or. Or you had an unlimited amount of money? Could the problem be solved and maybe we'll wrap it up with those weird questions?

Yeah, no, that's not a weird. It's not a weird question. I mean, it's certainly something I've thought about. So, first of all, I think we have to consider what we mean by solved. So, you know, there are people out there who talk about a cure for aging. I personally don't like that terminology, because while I'm not saying that's impossible, there's no evidence that that's plausible or feasible right now. So I don't talk so much about a cure of aging. So if that's the goal, the answer is I don't know. And honestly, I think we're so far away from that that I don't know where you would start if your goal was to cure aging. If the goal is to significantly improve health and longevity in people, then absolutely, I think there are clear next steps which could be taken today if the resources were available, which I believe would get us to at least the first line interventions within the next five years, as I've already alluded to. I think we've got interventions now where there's enough evidence that they impact the biological aging process in people that they're probably going to work. And what's really limiting right now Are the resources to test those interventions In a rigorous way. Well, I should say resources and incentive because I think some of this is based on profit motive, which is that's just part of the system that we live in. Right. If you can't make money doing it, then people aren't going to put the money behind it to try to do it outside of federal research. So I think that absolutely, if the goal is to move these treatments into the clinic and have an impact, then that is a solvable problem. And the first line interventions are probably already there. And I think second and third line interventions would accelerate through the pipeline if there were more resources to do that.

Yeah. Fascinating stuff. It really is a fascinating field. And Matt, thank you so much for joining us. Give out your website.

Sure. So if anybody out there who's a dog lover is interested in participating in the dog aging project, I would encourage you to go to www.dogagingproject.org and nominate your dog to participate.

What do you do when you participate in that? You just have to fill out reports and stuff, I guess.

Yeah. So the way it'll work is owners go to the website, they complete a short nomination survey and then they will be asked to create their owner portal and complete a longer, what we call health and life experiences survey. And the goal of that survey is really to capture as much background information on the dog and its environment and health currently and previously. And also then owners will be asked to upload a veterinary record, electronic veterinary medical record. After that, then the dogs can be placed into different groups that are kind of studied in different ways. So there's a dog aging project, pac, which is the largest group. And there it will be, as you just alluded to, ongoing surveys and ongoing veterinary medical records. There's what we call the foundation group. Those dogs will have their genomes sequenced so that right now we're funded to sequence the genomes of 10,000 dogs. So we'll get genetic information on every dog in the foundation group. And then there's the precision group, which is the highest resolution group, is sort of the omics group or systems biology group. Those dogs, every year the owners will take them to their veterinarian and we will collect blood and feces for microbiome, metabolome, epigenome, as well as genome sequencing. So we'll get a large amount of molecular data on those dogs to really try to map the health outcomes and the environmental factors to molecular processes that seem to be happening in those dogs. And then there will also, as I mentioned, be 500 dogs that are selected to participate in the rapamycin intervention trial. Of course, all of this is only if the owners want to participate in an intervention trial, but owners will be given the option to be considered for that trial.

Yeah. Good stuff. All right, well, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

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