AIPIS 96 - Real Estate Investing, Vacation Rentals and the Importance of Good Property Management with Julia Spencer

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Welcome to the AIPIS show for accredited income property investment specialists and those who desire to be. This is your host, Jason Hartman. We talk about increasing your income, your productivity and just generally having a better life while serving your clients better with America's most historically proven asset class income property. We have a great interview for you today and we will be back with that in less than 60 seconds.

Hey, it's my pleasure to welcome Julia Spencer to the show. She is a rocket scientist. Well, not really, sort of. Actually she's a real estate investor and she's got a great story. She started out as something of a rocket scientist. I'll let her tell that story. And she's in Savannah, Georgia, a market that we've done lots of business in over the years. And she invests in income properties and tax liens and just kind of wanted to profile her story and hear more. I always love it when we can hear case studies and you can hear what real investors are doing out there in the field. Julia, welcome. How are you?

Great, great.

Good to have you on. So you own properties and you have them in Georgia. You have them in two foreign countries as well and some other places I believe too. And then tax, lien, investments. You know what initially attracted you to real estate investing? I mean, you know, I jokingly said you were a rocket scientist, which you kind of were. Tell us about your degree in your first career and then, and then how you made the transition, if you would.

Yeah, glad. Gladly. Well, my first, my first degree is in software engineering. So my career was designing software for the defense industry for weapons systems. And that's what I did for a very long time. And the way I got into real estate investing was pretty much by default. I had to move because of a job situation and I couldn't sell my house. So by default I became a landlord and I hated it. I absolutely hated it. But I couldn't get rid of this property and I just kept it and I kept it and after a while it started to actually generate income. After that it grew into two and three and several more. And eventually it replaced my career because I became a mom and wanted to stay home more. And my currency was time versus money at the time. And I was able to afford to basically quit my career and become full time real estate investor. And I say full time, but it really was only part time because I mostly am just a full time mom. So that's kind of how it came about.

Well, how long ago did you start your real estate investing career?

I started when I was 22. That's when I purchased my very first house and then pretty much became a landlord at the age of 23.

Yeah, fantastic. I was 20. So I beat you by a little bit. But yeah, it's definitely a great business. It sure is. So what is really your angle or your philosophy on investing? Tell the investors a little bit about what you do.

I don't really have a set strategy in terms of I go only after flipping houses or long term houses or tax lien foreclosures. But instead I have a really big mix of everything. I have vacation rentals that I rent out on Airbnb. I do a lot of tax lien, foreclosure, buying and selling. Some of those I do flipping on, and I have a whole bunch of properties that are also just buy and hold and I have minimum involvement in those. So my portfolio, I'm always looking to basically balance it if I have to. Too much of one, I get rid of some and I add something a little bit more of that. And it's a balancing act of what I have and how much time I'm willing to spend on it at any time.

Let's talk a little bit about tax liens and how you, how you maybe first found out about that. It's sort of this niche little funny thing on the side. And you know, I did a show, episode 417, profiling a company called Platinum Investment Properties, or PIP, where the lady on the show, my guest, she got ripped off, off by them. And so did I. I was a client too, and that was kind of interesting. But it seemed to go okay for a little while. You do it all yourself, though. You're not using an agent or a company to help you with your tax lien investing. So I'd like love to learn more about that and I'm sure the listeners would too. How do you first find out about tax liens?

Well, when I, when I first found out about it, I basically just saw the ads in the paper and they were selling properties. This was in the state of Florida at the time, they're selling properties for a thousand, $2,000 in the legal section. And I was very, very young at the time and I saw these ads, I'm like, there's got to be something wrong with this. This is some wudu stuff. So I let it sit for many, many years until I finally picked up a paper, this time in Georgia, in the state of Georgia, and tried to investigate it some more. And I heard some infomercials on the TV and I started reading and doing my research and so just started showing up to some of the sales and at the sales, basically there's always other people that are also bidding. And so I stood next to the gray beards, I call them, the older guys with the gray beards that have been doing it for many, many years and basically just looked over their shoulders and asked questions. And that's how I got into it. I bought a couple, then I bought a couple more, I sold them, I made profit, I made more profit and it just kept on going from there. And with time I made some mistakes. Now I've lost my some money on those as well, probably much like you. But I as I did it hands on, I basically learned all my lessons in, in the hands on approach. So I'm very well knowledgeable about how to make money with tax lien foreclosures now and I teach people how to do that as well.

Yeah. And so, so that's the thing I think investors have to understand and maybe that's a, a good thing that we should talk about here is that, you know, like real estate investing, like life is experiential learning, it's on the job training if you will. You know, you're, you're just, you just can't really learn everything you need to know from a book or a seminar or a podcast. You gotta actually do it at some point and, and get off the fence and take some risk and you, you may make some mistakes, hopefully you've got someone there to help you. Is it possible to completely avo mistakes? And the reason I ask you this is because I know there are so many people out there who just, they just want the stars to align before they're going to do anything. And life doesn't work that way, does it?

No, there's never a right moment. And I'm not going to say that there's a way to avoid all the mistakes than taxing foreclosures. In fact, even now, to this day, and I've been doing taxing foreclosures for A long time. Sometimes I buy property and I look it up and it's a decent property and I drive by it and it looks great and it's worth a lot. And I paid just very minimum amount. And for months after I'm sitting, I'm thinking there's got to be something else I'm missing, something somebody's not telling me something, and I'm sitting on this, you know, big sinkhole or something. And it's crazy, but, you know, a lot of times, times it works out really great and I make a lot of money. And if you don't take the risk, you'll never know.

Yeah. What kind of mistakes did you make? Did you buy a lien and then try to foreclose and find out you couldn't? Or was the property somehow encumbered by something else that the tax lien wasn't superior to? Or what happened? What were some of those mistakes?

Well, the one mistake that I always pull out, which is my favorite story, I spent on this one tax lien foreclosure. It was in the city of Macon, which is right in the middle of the state of Georgia. And I bought this property and it was such a great potential property, commercial property. I spent more money on it than I usually would on a tax lien foreclosure. And I was brand new to this, to this particular type of investing. And I had plans for this property. It was close to University, I thought, you know, perfect for a coffee house and some lofts and maybe a little library in the corner.

This was like a redevelopment deal, really.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to use it for. Basically just build it up or flip it. And it turns out it was really just a shell. It had to be torn down and the owners were not going to pay me anything back for it. I don't know if you knew in the state of Georgia, it's a tax lien foreclosure state versus a tax deed foreclosure state. So there's a one year redemption period where you can't actually do anything to the property. That's the time that the original owners have the right to purchase the property back from you with a premium. So for that year, you kind of just sit and tide waiting to see what happen. But the original owners were nowhere to be found. The place was a dump. And the city was on my back telling me to tear it down now because it's a hazard to the people walking past it. So, yeah, that was a big mistake, A big mistake. I lost all my money on that. But then again, I invested maybe $4,000. And you know, if you go to a class these days or to university or try to get a real estate degree in anything, you'll spend that much.

Okay? So that, that's a really refreshing way to look at things. Number one is that you, you know, you figured, you took the real life seminar and got your quote, degree, unquote, in, in tax lien investing, you know, as a baptism by fire, right? You just, you just went through it and, and you chalked it up to education. So that's, that's a very good attitude for sure. But one of the things that listeners really need to understand is that, and this is, this happens in the foreclosure world, the tax lien world, the world of real estate, that seems too good to be true world too, okay? And that is that when you acquire a property, it becomes a responsibility. Okay? You could have environmental cleanup. You could have, you know, it's not like you just get a property and it ends there. No, you get a property and that's where it starts. And look at what's happened to these banks and these lenders who have foreclosed on the millions of properties. Through the Great Recession, they became huge targets where cities and municipalities, governments were fining them and punishing them and saying, look, keep up these properties, you're liable for them. This is now your responsibility because you took them back. And that's one of the reasons they didn't want to take them back, because they became their responsibility a lot of times so they would be motivated to do workouts. But yeah, there's, you know, that's a thing to really understand. You know, they have something called the brownfield laws. And you know, just, you gotta understand when you acquire a property, it becomes your responsibility. So if you're buying foreclosures or tax liens and you're doing this yourself, you really need to know what you're doing. This is not a game for inexperienced people. The people that do this stuff mostly are pros. They are real professionals. You know, they didn't, they didn't buy the little tape program or audio download. I should say be more concurrent, you know, that they saw on late night TV and just run out and do this stuff. It's, there's more to it, right?

Yeah. Well, you definitely are buying a big responsibility, and especially with tax lien foreclosures, you're buying something that you probably have never seen before, you haven't entered. You may have driven by it, but not really Had a chance to inspect it. And on top of that there might be other liens. So you have to understand how to read the title, do a title search and read the deed search and see if there's any other encumbrances or anything. I mean, there's a lot involved. This is a, this is a full time program that you learn when you get into tax lien foreclosures. It's a little scary in the beginning, but once you know what you're looking for, you can make a lot of money at it. And it takes a little time, but it's, it's worth it.

Yeah, good, good, good to know. Good to know with your tax lien. So that's an interesting story and thank you for being so willing to share that story. What are some of the really good moves that you had with your, your real estate investing? Tell us some success stories. We heard a negative one. Let's hear a good one.

Well, I have a number of properties.

A little bit more about my strategy. The kinds of houses that I buy normally are small little bungalow, 1,000 square foot houses for single family houses. I don't buy duplexes or multiple units. So what I usually buy is two or three or four houses in the same area. And they're small and.

Basically I hold them for a long time until they more or less pay themselves off with the rents that I get and I get cash flow. So these are, I have a number of those. They support my standard of living and I don't get involved with them at all. So other success stories, I've gotten a whole bunch of tax lien. On the tax lien foreclosure strategy side, I have bought properties for 1500, $2000 and I've made 30, 40, sometimes $50,000 on a property that's worth maybe 100 because I just turn around wholesale them as is and I don't flip them or do anything to them. So there's a lot of money to be made and those are my success stories. That kind of negate the bad ones.

Yeah, sure. So that buy and hold strategy, that's what most of our investors are into, is. And I've definitely noticed over the years that people who do flipping, they have spending money, but people who buy and hold have real wealth. It just seems to work out that way. And I'm not saying that flipping is bad. It's just an act of business though. And you know, by the time the government eats up your profits and their capital gains taxes and so forth, it really it really changes the dynamic. You know, in the buy and hold strategy is so tax favored versus tax disadvantaged is the flipping strategy. What else would you like investors to know? Just any tips you have for them. Maybe it came out of a horror story or a good story.

One of the things that I would like investors to know is that something that we've talked about a little while ago is that property management and having good property managers is so important. I mean, I'm learning this even I've been doing it for so long and I've done my own property management and I have people that do it now for me. But just finding the right property management people is very important. It shouldn't be overlooked. It's important to seek out the right people for that and to analyze the management deals that different property management companies offer you. And also to get to know the property managers that take care of your properties. Especially if you're long distance owner or if you have a lot of properties that are far away from you. You definitely need to understand the very first thing before you go into tax lien, foreclosures or flipping or anything like that. Understand how to get good property managers that know what they're doing and have a good relationship with them. That would be my biggest tip to any investor out there.

Yeah, so that's a great point. You know, so much is dependent on that property manager. That's really where the rubber meets the road in terms of the investment. You know, most people are focused on buying right. You know, buying right is certainly important, but the ongoing management is, is just critical. And I love my great property managers, but I also have to say I love self management too and being able to self manage from a distance there, it's, it's great to know that that can be done. If you asked me several years ago, is that possible, I would have said no way, you're crazy, you can't do it. But you know, I think really the property management business needs to evolve to where it needs to become an a la carte services business. Where, and that's what we're trying to offer through a software we're developing. But you know, why is it that, you know, most people, they either sign up with a property manager or they don't. Why can't you just buy services as you need them like you can in so many other areas of life? You know, if you take your car to the car wash, you can get the basic wash or you can have it all waxed and detailed or you know, several things in between you go to get your hair cut, you can have a blow dry or not, you know, and there's, there are options. And I think that's the way property management should be viewed. And the thing I like about it, and tell me what you think of this, is where a manager, or you can use a real estate agent to do it too. That's not a manager per se, where they'll come in and they all handle tenant transition and turnover. They'll do the lease up, they'll do the walkthroughs, they all help with any repairs or make ready assistance that you need and you know, sign the lease and market the property to the new tenant. But they don't need to be there to collect the checks every month. That's pretty easy. It's mostly a brainless job. You know, most tenants pay their rent. Okay, Granted, there are exceptions, of course, we all know that. But I think that's the way property management, it needs to evolve. It needs to be done where a la carte services are available. Have you ever thought about that or what do you think of it? Now that I mention it.

Well, it's great that you mentioned this because that is exactly how it works in Germany. I actually own a duplex, I should say, in Germany, and I rent out one part through Airbnb and the other part I have long term tenants. And that's basically how it works whenever I need a property manager. For the long term tenants, obviously Airbnb is a separate story. But for the long term tenants, to find tenants and to interview them and to the background check and the income verification, all that stuff, that's very labor intensive and to show the property, there is one company that handles that. But the actual maintenance management type efforts from then on, once you have a signed contract is handled by completely different company. So you actually have to hire basically two companies. But it works a little bit different there versus the United States because in Germany or in European countries in general, tenants tend to stay a lot longer. There's not this moving philosophy on life as much as it is in the United States.

So yeah, the US is one of the most, is really the most mobile, advanced country in the world. I mean, the people here are very mobile. But you know, in Germany people stay. They can literally will, from what I understand, correct me please. They can will and I was born in Germany, okay, And I've been there many times since. But they can literally will their rent controlled apartments to their heirs. I hear, I mean, you know, I hear it's just terribly landlord Unfriendly. Although it may be great in terms of the way property management services is offered. Don't. Don't the tenants have all the rights in Germany?

And they do, absolutely, yes. You have to be very careful.

Why would you want to own a property in Germany then? I mean, isn't it. Aren't you always, like, at the disadvantage as the landlord?

You are, however.

In a way, the way that works in Germany. And this is why I like my property in Germany and I'll never sell it. Isn't there just isn't as much land? So the value of the land is many times over, probably worth more than the actual house that it sits on, unless you have a mansion or something. And also these countries, some of these more established, richer countries like Germany, they're so stable in terms of economy. I mean, this is just the perfect property to have. If you lose everything everywhere else in the world, Germany will still be there. And that's why I like holding in Germany and in other countries.

Well, I mean, that's a funny perspective. You think that Germany's more stable than the US As a country? I mean.

Well, it's been around longer, let's say it that way.

Well, I know, but I mean, the US won the industrial revolution as the biggest superpower on earth, right? Absolutely.

Well, well, and this is my. And that's what I was trying to explain earlier. This is. My philosophy is to diversify. You know, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Different strategies, properties in different countries. You know, you're always assured and have your safety assured. If you, if you diversify in everything.

Well, certainly from an asset protection standpoint too, you know, because, say, for example, you get sued and you get sued in the us which is the most likely place you'll get sued, you know, because we're pretty litigious over here, you know, it would be hard to attach assets in other countries, although it can be done. There are treaties and especially with, you know, westernized countries. So, you know, they. It can be done, but it's certainly a hurdle. No question about that. Tell us about your Germany place. So it's a duplex. How much is it worth? And you know, if you don't, if you can't do the dollar conversion, just say it in euros. That's close enough.

It's probably worth about €250,000 for both sides.

Both sides of the duplex, yes. And how much does it rent for, actually? Because you've got one as a temporary rental, a vacation rental. Don't even Quote that. Just tell us how much the one side rents for. That's a year round rental.

It's about a thousand euros a month.

Okay, so, so let's. Listeners, you know what I'm going to say about this, right? When we talk about rent to value ratio, it doesn't matter the currency. That's the beauty of this, this simple rule of thumb equation, very basic. It works everywhere on the planet in every currency on earth. Okay, so if you have the duplex, that's worth €250,000, that means half of it. Are the units the same size?

Yes.

Okay, so they're equal units. Okay, so half of it would be worth €125,000 and that rents for €1,000 per month. So listeners, how we doing? Well, not terrible. Not as bad as I thought it might be because I would ideally like to see a 1% RV ratio. I'd like you to get 12, €50 per month for the $125,000 or euro, I should say value, which is 1% per month. But the thing is, when you go to Germany or Costa Rica where you also own property, the whole tax structure is different and everything is different there. So I have no idea what property taxes are like in Germany, but I kind of think they're probably sort of high. I would just assume that because it's a more socialist country. What is that like?

Oh yes, definitely much higher.

And do you have to pay income tax on your rental income there in Germany?

Well, you know, the way it works is that part of it actually goes through Airbnb. So I pay income tax on that here.

Right, but that's for the vacation rental side. What about the long term rental side?

The other side, there is a certain limit up to which you do not pay taxes. Germany has very favorable law for low income people. So if you make up to a certain amount, you don't pay taxes on that at all versus the United States, you make a dollar your tax on it. It doesn't work like that in Germany. Basically, if you make five or €10,000 or whatever in profit in a year, if you're below a certain amount, then you're not taxed on that.

Okay, yeah, very interesting. Okay, so the idea is to stay small when you're a German investor.

Exactly.

You see how the incentive is not to get big and grow, grow a portfolio. That's European socialism for us, right?

Well, yeah. And my philosophy on taxes obviously always is if you're a real estate investor, you always make, you want to make lots of profit in Fact, that's what you're in to be. However, you pay taxes on your profit, so it's best for you to minimize your profit by equalizing expenses and income as much as you can.

The nice thing is you can, you know, every real estate investment is a business. So some of these other expenses that you normally have in your life can be a little bit allocated toward your real estate investing. You know, cell phone, car maybe, you know, travel, things like that. You know, you can, you can put a little of that into your real estate portfolio, probably. Good stuff. Well, Julia, we covered a lot of. There were a lot of good nuggets in here, I thought. And I really appreciate you sharing your story. Gosh, is there anything I didn't ask you that maybe we should share before you go, just as we wrap up here?

No, but you're welcome to bring me back on, on any show if you want to talk more about Airbnb, because I know Airbnb on vacation rentals and things like that in and out, and I could probably give some insight to your investors on how that really works. I think you had a tax expert on recently about that. And.

Really nobody can tell you about how to host on Airbnb unless you actually ask a host. So I'd be happy to come back on another show and talk about that and tell you investors how that works.

Yeah, we're going to do one more show that we've actually got in the queue about the Airbnb. And it's really unfair that Airbnb is getting. This is almost becoming generic like Coke and Kleenex and Xerox. It's vacation rentals, folks. It's not Airbnb. Okay? That just happens to be the big player. Okay. But you know, as you heard, if you, I guess you listened to that episode where I had the CPA on and we talked about Airbnb. I have been interested in this, this vacation rental concept. I certainly know many people that do it. But I tell you, I'm just not a fan. I can't be convinced so far. Do you want to try and convince me that it's a good thing because they're susceptible to a higher tax rate, the self employment tax, an extra 16%, basically. And you know, it's a lot more management. I know there are some tools that can make it a little easier for managers to. But you know, I just, I don't know. I think the economy goes down the tubes again. If another shoe drops, we're going to, you know, the first thing people are going to cut out is vacation. Right? I just like, I don't know, maybe I'm just getting too old and conservative, but I just like stable, simple, long term, year round leases and good quality rental properties. Tell me I'm wrong. Pick at me. Go ahead, have at it.

Well, you know, there's a lot of. First off, let's talk about the taxes because taxes obviously is one of my favorite subjects. I think the CPA had mentioned that there's an extra 15% that you're taxed on because of the self employment tax. Obviously because you're considered a business if you run a short term vacation rental. That's one of the things that he said. However, if you have.

Long term rentals, usually your property managers will collect about 10% in property management fees per month and in some places sometimes even more and sometimes you get discounts. So right around 10% is taken from your rent, from your income right off the back. Well, for something like Airbnb. And so and I have 20 different websites that do the same kind of thing, different portals basically, online portals that do vacation rentals. Airbnb happens to be one of the biggest ones, so I use it as an example. But they only charge the host 3% so. And there is no, not a technically a property manager. They also include a lot of the insurance for damages and things like that. And they have a very thought out process. They've made lots of mistakes. They're obviously a very young company, so they've made lots of mistakes in the process that they're remedying. They have excellent customer service and I don't want to be like the posterior shot here trying to advertise for them, but that's.

We're wondering if you own stock in Airbnb.

No, I do not. I probably should, you know, I probably should. But you know, there's a lot of offsets to this 15% to start with in terms of monetary compensation, in terms of security, they have the insurance obviously that they provide and your management fees as a whole, Most are only 3%. But if you have your vacation rentals close to a vacation area, for example, where I have most of mine, I am pretty much booked 90 to 95% out of the year, every day, every month, even in the winter, I'm always booked. It's a huge source of income. And you know, even if I didn't have the savings from the property management.

Fees that I'm not paying to regular property manager, just the income, the extra income, rent income that I generate is four to five times as much as I would on the regular. If I would rent these properties out in the regular rental market, long term rental market.

Well, that's better than I'm hearing from most people, that's for sure. So are you tell us about how much time you're spending managing vacation rentals, though?

It takes more time than the long term rentals. However, it's a more pleasant type of management to me. I don't do the actual work. I just manage the people that do the work, like the cleaning and the talking to the people, the bookkeeping and the shopping and all that stuff. I don't do that, but I have, I have people obviously, that I need to manage and schedule. So the time that I spend on this probably.

20, 25% of a regular person's job. So maybe two or three hours a day, but I don't have a regular job. And this is a fun thing to me because I get new people that I meet from all over the world. Most of them are vacationers who are here to have a good time. They're relaxed, they're. They have tons of great information. I have gotten all kinds of cool deals on people's businesses or ideas. Just the influx of newness that comes to my houses on a daily basis is just amazing. I mean, it beats going out and partying at a bar or at a big place any day because you basically have a fun place where people just love to hang out any day of the year.

Well, so do you live near. I mean, well, you obviously live near your vacation rental properties, but what do you, what do you mean? Like where. Describe that. Is it a plex? And, and you have rental units right where you live? Or the. What is it?

It's, it's in the neighborhood. I have three houses that are all in the same neighborhood within half a mile.

And so you're the one going over and giving them the keys or they come to your house and. Or what?

Sometimes, sometimes I have my assistant do it and sometimes we just leave the keys. It just depends.

So you're saying this is a good thing for your social life? You're single, I assume?

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

All right. Okay. So I'm single too.

There you go.

There we go. Maybe I will meet my future wife as a vacation renter.

Yeah, well, it's not happening to me yet, but I'm hopeful.

Very interesting. Okay, so. So that's influencing you though, right? I mean, you're, you know, you, you like that. How long do they people stay on average? Are they like three days or like for a weekend or what?

In in my area it's mostly for the weekend.

Great. Give out your website if you would.

My website is juliam spencer.com www.juliamspencer.com and I always tell people M stands for money because I will try to educate.

You how to earn some or for middle name.

Good. Good stuff. Well Julia, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate you sharing your story.

Can I add one more thing? As I mentioned earlier, I'm working on a book. It's basically going to be called Real Estate secrets that can make you rich. So keep me posted and keep me on your lookup for my website and it's going to come up soon.

Fantastic. Thank you Julia.

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