CW 1085 FBF - Interest Rates, Low Housing Supply, LA Prices, Disrupting Real Estate with Autonomous Cars & Flying Cars with Pat Donohoe

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With the complete solution for real estate investors. Welcome to the Creating wealth Show, episode number 825. 825. Thank you so much for joining me today. I've got one of our Venture alliance members, one of our clients, and a friend who's been on the show before as a returning guest doing this episode with me, and that is Mr. Patrick Donahoe. Pat, welcome. How are you?

I'm awesome. Jason, how are you doing?

Good, good. And you are coming to us from Salt Lake City, Utah, where we actually did an event. Gosh, that was about a year ago now, right?

Yeah, it's been about that. Yeah, we believe.

Yeah, we did JHU live there right down, right down the street from your office, actually, not very far. So, Pat, there's a lot of stuff going on out there in the investment markets and you're deep into this every day with your real estate and your clients, with your firm, you know, buying the financial products that you help them get into. I just thought we'd start this episode by playing a little Wall Street Journal clip about interest rates and really just sort of highlighting the overall inventory challenge and how overheated the hous market is right now. So you want to do that first?

Let's do it.

Yeah. All right, let's jump in. Here is my high tech playback where I literally hold my iPhone to the microphone. You ready for this, folks? We. This is a very homespun show, you know. So here we go.

Housing Market by Laura Kasisto. Mortgage rates dropped below 4% for the first time since November, providing more kindling to an already hot housing market as the crucial spring selling season gets underway. The average rate on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage dropped to 3.97% for the week ended April 20 from 4.08% a week earlier and 4.3% in mid March, according to data released Thursday by mortgage company Freddie Mac. The drop could help encourage buyers who had been put off by rising mortgage rates to dive into the market and prompt others to rush to buy.

You like how I'm playing that at 1.5 times speed, by the way. Can you all keep up with that? I play it back Faster homes before rates rise again.

We are in the spring and people are out looking to buy homes, said Len Keefer, deputy chief economist at Freddie Mac. These low rates are really going to help out with affordability. For most of 2016, mortgage rates, which generally move together with yields on the benchmark 10 year US treasury note hovered just above 3.5% for the 30 year fixed rate mortgage after the November election, optimism that the US Economy would get a boost from Republican plans for a tax overhaul, increased infrastructure spending and reduced regulations helps drive interest rates sharply higher as investors bet on faster growth. But the tide is turning. Treasury yields, which move in the opposite direction of prices, approached a five month low last week as many investors worried that turmoil in Syria and North Korea, as well as election uncertainty in France and the lack of progress on tax and spending policy under President Donald Trump, would lead to slower economic growth in the months ahead. Almost the entirety of the Trump bump to mortgage rates has been washed away, said Keith Gumbinger, a vice president@hsh.com a mortgage information website. That in turn could spur the housing market. Economists said a decline in mortgage rates.

Can reduce monthly mortgage does the housing market need to be spurred? God, it's like I can't remember a market this hot in recent history. I mean, I don't know, maybe. Pat, do you think the market is hotter now than it was in 2004? I don't. I was pretty crazy back then.

Well, yeah, I mean you look at it was it was that then and you know, leading into 2006, 2007, 2. And I would say that right now depends on the area. But I would say that it's still hot. And I mean I don't know if interest rates are what's going to really create that demand. But I just think looking at whether it's the millennial generation or people relocating, I mean there's a lot of reasons that you can point to as far as the increase in demand. But still think from what I'm seeing, it's it's still hot in a lot of areas.

Oh, still hot is like an understatement, if you ask me. I think it's nuts. Yeah. You know, I'll give you an example. One of our celebrity clients. We have a few celebrity clients, folks. I. I will let him remain nameless, but he's a famous musician. He is looking around for properties in. In Los Angeles, you know, for. For he and his family. And he sent me this property the other day. I couldn't believe it. It was a link to a Zillow listing. And I'll just chair how absolutely ridiculous this is. Okay, so this property is. It's. Oh, my. This property. They bought it. He did the research. He's. He's really sharp, and he's really. You know, and he listens to our podcast, so, you know, he's got to be super smart. And this property was purchased for $700,000 in 1998. Now, granted, it may have had. Well, it certainly had some improvements, but it's. It's just under 2,800 square feet, and it's in Pacific Palisades in Los Angeles. You know, it's got, like, you know, an ocean view, but it's not right on. You know, it's not like, dead on the ocean or anything like that. Okay. Four bedrooms, five baths. But get. Remember, it's just under 2,800 square feet. It's not giant. Okay. And the property is for sale for $9.5 million.

Are you freaking kidding me? And, you know, he told me that this is not a super desirable area or anything. And, you know, the property's nice, and they did a good job with the. With the remodel, but give me a break. 10 million bucks. Now, what's interesting about this is the Zestimate. You know how Zillow does these Zestimates that are, by the way, all over the board. Folks, I just want to tell you, you cannot trust Zillow, okay? Get over it. Zillow is famously inaccurate in a lot of ways. But. But I still like Zillow because Zillow is better than what we had before. What did we have before Zillow? Well, nothing. So, you know, Zillow is quite handy. Okay? But do not take Zillow's evaluation. Positive, negative, good, bad, higher, lower, as the gospel. You cannot do that. But what's interesting is. And here's a great example of that, the Zillow Zestimate, when I looked at this listing a couple of days ago when he sent it to me, was I think $3.2 million or something. Now this estimate was changed to $11,152,000.

So the zestimate radically changed in a matter of three days, two days. And look at this, the estimate. This is so funny to look at this. The estimated mortgage on this 9.5 million dollar property, $35,000 a month.

God, now you could rent this property for probably, you know, I don't know, $30,000 a month. And people would say, well, if I rented that, I'd be throwing my money away. I don't know. I think you'd be throwing your money away by buying it. Especially if there's a downturn because this is just, this market is just built on, it's just ridiculous. It's just built on spec. And I mean, you know, like if you saw this house, it's an, it's a no big deal house. It's not a mansion. It's, you know, it's a nice looking postmodern kind of 50s style house, but you know, it's not a mansion. Okay? And for 10 million bucks, I would hope you'd get a mansion. I wrote them back and said, hey, I'd give them 2 million for it.

Well, I just think that's California in general, but I think there's also some isolated locations that have similar issues. And I think that you have high income earners that are moving into different areas, you know, California being one of them, Silicon Valley, there's actually a lot here in Utah too. But there's other kind of centralized locations where you have a lot of high income earners, mainly in the tech space. You know, they have that money to more or less throw, throw away. So I, I doubt they're nickel and diming, you know, an interest rate or the monthly, the monthly rent at 30,000 or 35,000amonth. I think that there's such a big difference for, you know, maybe the normal person. But for those that actually can pay those amounts, I think it's a marginal, a marginal difference. Do you think same thing or what?

Well, yeah, I agree with you. You know, when you've got a billion dollars, who cares about 10 million, right? It's no big deal. Or if you've got even 100 million, it tenth of your wealth. But just understand that this house, I mean, you've got it. I mean, how could anyone argue that we're not in a bubble, okay, when this house is basically $3,500 per square foot. 3,500 bucks per square foot, Are you kidding me? I Mean, look, you could, you could live in Las Vegas. And like, you know, I am tempted, honestly, to just buy a mansion, right? And you know, one hand, I want to. I've owned big houses before. They're like a burden, you know, they're. It takes a lot to manage a big house.

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And, and you know, I'm a big promoter of renting the home in which you live, rent a high end home and own a lot of rental properties. You rent to other people. But I mean, I'm looking at like one place that I'm vaguely interested. Okay. I'm not like a serious buyer, but I just have to tell you, I, I do get tempted just like all of the rest of you listening. Okay? And this house is, is $2.3 million. It's, and it's like 8, 600 square feet. So how much is that? I think that was 272 per foot or something. I can't remember. I did it initially. Pat, you have a calculator handy here? Yeah.

What was the listing price again?

2.3 million. I'll get it faster than you will. I'm doing it already. 8,600 square feet. That is, yeah, 267 dol per square foot. So that's literally like, you know, less than a tenth of the price of the place. In la. You could buy yourself a private jet. Buy and own a private jet. Okay. Now granted, you'd have to run it if you have to commute to LA and pay for all the operating costs, but I don't know, man, that's just crazy. I mean, that's just crazy.

And this is how I, this is how I look at, I mean, those are, those are typically prices that are driven more by the supply and demand of primary residences, not necessarily rentals. And I'm not, again, I'm not familiar with the California markets, but yeah, you look at what's for rent or what's for sale in San Francisco, and those are just the prices that I just don't really sympathize with. But I would say at the same time, these are people looking to live kind of in an exclusive area as opposed to, you know, buying for a different reason. Right. So I think that, you know, and maybe, you know, this morning you're the real estate expert, but what's, you know, what's really the difference between kind of the supply and demand of primary residence areas and the supply and demand of more kind of rental, median Home price areas?

Well, yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean there, the supply and demand is pretty tough in the, you know, just regular hundred, 120, $140,000 rental property market too, as everybody knows. I've been talking on the show about how we're just struggling to get more inventory of properties. And again, if we wanted to sell our souls and just take and recommend crappy properties to our clients, yeah, that would, we'd make a lot of money for a few years doing that. But I, you know, unfortunately, or fortunately, maybe it is fortunate actually, you only have one reputation in life and it lasts for many decades, if not forever, so you really can't sell your soul. It's not a very good equation, you know, regardless of the morality of it. But just from a business perspective, it's, you know, not a good idea. Right. You know, how long can the bubble go on? I don't know. But you know, we are way out of whack with fundamentals when people are paying 30 $500 a square foot for a house. And one other thing I just got to mention, you know, remember, if you live in the Socialist Republic of California and you can afford that home, you are paying 13.3% state tax. In Nevada, a 45 minute ride away in your private jet, you're paying zero state income tax. Okay, so that's pretty significant also. And not to mention everything else, but hey, yeah, interesting side note there, Pat. Let's go back and hear a little bit more about what's going on with the interest rates here. Okay.

Bridge payments or allow buyers to purchase more expensive homes than they otherwise could afford. Economists said a surge of additional buyers this spring wouldn't be entirely welcome. It's driving more demand into a market that doesn't have much in the way of supply.

Mr. Said U.

S home prices rose 5.9% in the 12 months ended in January, the fastest rate since mid 2014 according to the S&P CoreLogic Case Shiller indices, which, by.

The way, Pat, as you well know, has so many flaws because it only profiles the 20 markets and you know, 14, 15 of those depending on how you look at it, or markets I wouldn't touch. You know, they're too, they're too cyclical. So yeah, Case Shiller is not a very good perspective. But again, it's one of those other things. We've got 400 markets in the US and they're profiling only 20 and calling that the national real estate market. Isn't that scary. It is.

You know, I Think especially as, you know, you, you have people growing out, you know, going from kind of an urban side and put, and pushing out. And you see that a lot in Salt Lake with all the different suburbs. But I think it's, I don't know. And maybe the technology has made it easier to build and it's, and it's faster. And so if you look at people, you know, supplementing, you know, their lifestyle with, you know, it could be like freelance type of work or working remotely, you're seeing a lot of different industries go there. It doesn't matter where a person lives, they can live in middle of nowhere. So I think it's unfair to use that type of assumption when you're dealing with just a scarce amount of markets. Because yeah, there could be a push to increase prices or increase supply in areas that people are not even looking at. Just because I would say jobs are becoming a lot more mobile.

Yeah, becoming a lot more mobile. And as we've talked on your show, on your podcast about, by the way, give our listeners the name of your podcast, Pat.

It's called the Wealth Standard.

The Wealth Standard Radio, I think is what you call it actually. Yeah, the Wealth Standard. Give out your website, tell people where they can find your podcast.

It's the wealthstandard.com and the company that I own is called paradigm life. It's paradigmlife.net.net.

Yes, it's hard to get those dot coms a lot of times for the name you want, right?

It is, there's like a Australian crystal company that owns.com and we've been negotiating in Japanese for the last last couple years. That's Google Translate.

These. Yeah, exactly. These domain names are just like real estate on the Internet, you know, and it's the same kind of thing. But the other thing that we talked about on your show when you interviewed me is about of course the self driving car, the autonomous car and I hate to even mention those words anymore because we talk so much about it, but my prediction is that we are going to see the rise again. The resurgence of suburbia. Suburbia and ex Serbia. The exurbs are coming back, baby. There's been all this move toward the city for the last several years, but I'm telling you, the autonomous vehicle and now Uber, Uber announced just last week, by the way, that they are going to test self flying cars. And did you, did everybody see it's been floating all around the Internet last week, the self flying car and Google is backing this one. And you know, it might actually happen at this Time. You know, we've been, I mean we've been hearing about this stuff for decades and, and decades. And you know, of course it was in the Jetsons that I watched the cartoon as a kid and. But the self flying car that you could summon and it would just pick you up and when I was at CES with two of our venture alliance members, Gary and Fernando, a few months ago, you know, we saw the self flying helicopter there that just picks up two people. You know, there's no driver, it just picks it up, picks you up. And that already works too. So, you know, I, I mean realist, this is a game changer for real estate. You know, if you're buying expensive real estate thinking that it's going to hold its value through the self flying and self driving car revolution, that is, I mean we're on the heels of it. It's not far away, folks. Be careful.

Yeah, well, he, well, there's another video that came out, Jason, where he was, he was pushing for tunnels. He was pushing for tunnels where the, where the cars actually go underground and accelerate speed and there'd be no traffic jams, etc. I don't know if you saw one too.

I did, I saw that video and I think that was another Elon Musk thing, besides his hyperloop, which is another transportation idea. Was the tunnel thing a musk bill? It was, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that too. And you know Pat, when I saw that, all I could think of this is just massively expensive, way too expensive. The tunnel thing and the car, you know, they said the car was going 127 miles an hour. I think, I think self driving cars is really all you need to solve a lot of the transportation problems. And the self flying car would be the next step. But building tunnels and new roads, all that, that's just too expensive, man.

I think it's, I think it's safe to say that there's this fascination not just held by Elon Musk, but there's this fascination with, with transportation and travel and doing it more efficiently. And I'm not sure exactly what the driving force is, pardon the pun, but it's more. In my opinion, it's. Yeah, it's really kind of creating a lower amount of time between two points. Right. It's kind of a closer proximity even though it could be a very huge, vast amount of space. Right. So I think that's really kind of the driving force behind it. But I look at, you know, suburbs and you know, I don't know if people Want to live like in, in suburbia or in an urban city. I mean, I think people like nature and like to be out in the open, but it's the transportation idea that, you know, that, that doesn't exist right now that makes it feasible for everyone. But I think it's being pushed and evidence is in what all, you know, the. These tech guys and techpreneurs coming up with all sorts of ideas, whether it's the hyperloop or flying cars or the autopilot features. Yeah, it's just a matter of time. But that's definitely gonna be a game changer because people are gonna be able to live really anywhere. And I think plus the advent of smart homes and having homes completely off the grid, that's coming too. So those two variables can change a lot of.

Absolutely. And I love the way you did that pun about the driving force. That was good. But I'll tell you what the driving force is. The driving force is real estate prices. That's the foundational concept that underlies everything in our life. You know, the preamble to the national association of Realtors is under all is land. Okay? And they couldn't be more right. It's all about real estate prices. It's about getting from the location in which most people live, that is the less expensive suburban location, to the more expensive location, that is the job center. That is essentially the, the game plan in every locale around the planet. Okay, just a reminder, you're listening to Flashback Friday. Our new episodes are published every Monday and every Wednesday.

The work location is the concentrated city location, at least formerly. I know this is changing and there's some real disruption going on to this. And the living location is the lower priced suburban location. Okay. Or exurban location anyway. Or it's in a, you know, maybe it's one set of suburbs to another. For example, Orange County, California, where I spent most of my adult life. And you know, you'd have people that couldn't afford to live in Orange county. They would live in Riverside and commute to Orange county to work. And Orange county is kind of suburban in and of itself. It's not really a city. So you saw that all the time there. And they live in Riverside, San Bernardino, commute to Orange County. And there's an old saying in real estate, you know, drive until you can qualify. Drive until you can qualify. And that's basically been the rule. And I'm telling you folks, if you or your friends are spending money on a high priced real estate, you better really be careful because if you are paying a giant location premium, that in my opinion, hey, listen, I could be wrong. I've been wrong about a couple things, but right about most, my prediction is that that concept is being massively disrupted. Okay. And the first time I heard about this idea was when Paul Zane Pilzer, who's a great author, I'd love to get him on the show. We haven't had him on yet. He wrote a book that I read in Maybe the late 80s, early 90s called or 90s called unlimited wealth the Theory and Practice of Economic Alchemy, which was fantastic. It really shifted my thinking a lot of stuff. And he said, look, you know, if, if you live in Los Angeles and think you got to live in LA because you know you've got to be close to work or close to whatever you want to do in Los Angeles and pay super high real estate prices, what happens when there's a cheap bullet train that gets installed that gets you to Phoenix in 45 minutes? Right? That's a game changer. Now granted that never happened, okay, Even though he Talked about that 30 years ago or something. But the concept is already with us with a self driving car and that is, that doesn't work, require a bunch of infrastructure, it doesn't require a bunch of environmental impact reports, a lot of fighting. This is just a technology that's just going to happen because it's fragmented and when it all gets networked together and cars can drive 100 miles an hour, 3ft off each other's bumper because there's no chance of accident because the computer system will network the cars together and control them. You know, you're not going to need to build any new highways. Peter Diamandis told us about how, how the packing density of that self driving car is six fold. It's at least six times higher than we have now. And you take the packing density and increase it by 600% of the cars on the road and then you increase that, you basically double or triple or if you live in Los Angeles, quadruple the speed of the cars at which they're Moving, right, from 25 miles an hour to 100 miles an hour.

Really, what's the big issue here with transportation? You're, you're good. I mean, you could, you could be to an outlying area in, in no time and work in the expensive area. And then, you know, you take Skype and virtual reality and you know, email and all the other technologies we've already been using for years and add them to that and it's just really a game changer.

Well, I think also, I mean, it all comes down to, you know, the amount of real estate and, and space. But think of it this way. If you start to just continually have this increasing demand and this increase in density with regards to downtown areas and metro areas or business district areas, it's just going to cause people to figure out solutions. So you look at some of the things you mentioned, which is virtual reality or the ability to very easily do video conference calls. You now have these kind of robots that have a iPad screen on them, and you can log into the robot and kind of control your way around the office. I don't know if you've ever seen videos that showed that.

Yes, I think the future of work.

Is just fascinating to me because I think, you know, you really look at the, as I said before, the advent of those that are working as freelancers or maybe working, you know, part, you know, the two days a week or three days a week at an office and the other two days off. And that right there could create a totally different dynamic when it comes to the amount of space needed for business. Because a business may have, you know, 50 employees, but have, you know, really space for 15 or 20 now it's like, okay, well, how do you fit 50 employees in there? That's when you look at, you know, just this ability to have people work from home or work in other locations and then kind of come in for a couple days during the week. I just think you're going to see a lot of, lot of change, you know, in regards to just how business is run, especially with the up and coming generation, the millennial generation, who, I don't know if they would articulate it like this, but they are just naturally efficient with certain things. Obviously have a few wires that haven't really connected yet. But I think that as they get some experience underneath them, there's going to be this kind of manifestation of all the things they've been learning from a technology standpoint. That's going to totally change the game when it comes to work and a career. So I think that's also going to affect. I mean, there's so many different variables. Right. But in the end, it's, you know, really paying attention, understanding what the fundamentals mean, and then knowing how to invest it.

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Good points, Good points there, Pat. Well, hey, I just wanted to wrap up the episode here today and ask you what your clients, I mean, you have. You have hundreds, if not thousands of clients, maybe of tens of thousands. I don't even know.

Not that many yet. But you know, they're all investors. They're all, I'd say your clients are, are kind of well off, at least upper middle class, if not in the wealthy class. What are they saying to you? What is the sentiment out there? I always just like to ask other business people and investors kind of what they see going on. You know, everybody's got a perspective.

Well, this, this is, there's not one overarching theme that all of our clients are saying. This is what I feel, this is what I think. This is what I'm doing. This is what I'm afraid of. This is what I'm excited about. It's all over the place. But as you ask that question, what really comes to mind is you have this kind of idea that those that are in their 50s have always grown up with, which is the idea of retirement where you work for 30 years, 35 years or whatever, and then you live the rest of your days on the beach and playing golf on a community in Florida or something like that. That's kind of the stereotype. But what I've really seen is this kind of reinvention of that where they're finding second careers. They're looking to be contractors or freelancers or consultants. And I think it's partially due to knowing that they're going to be living until 80s, 90s, potentially, but it's also a lot longer.

Longer than that. Yeah.

And so it's also.

So, so is there. Wait, before you go on, I want to ask you, is there a sense there that they're going to run out of money?

Yeah, that's.

Got enough to retire today. Yeah. Okay, good.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I mean, looking at how interest rates are and how much risk you have to take in order to have yield. There's, there's this. Yeah. They're looking for, you know, obviously higher yielding investments, but it's also just the amount of money they've accumulated just is simply, simply isn't enough. When you factor in taxes and inflation and lifestyle and then how long your money is going to have to last.

And that's why a great problem to have too much life left at the end of the money. But it's still a problem. It is. And that's what's fast, that we're living longer. But you better plan for it.

Exactly. And I just think that it's. I'm not sure if they would define everything that I'm really diagnosing right now as such, but I would say that that is the concerns that I see are basically they kind of reverse engineer right into those two things, which is they know they don't have enough money and they know that they're going to be living a long time and they don't feel like they would be a productive part of society if they just hung up the stethoscope or hung up the boots or whatever they do for a profession. It's trying to kind of reinvent themselves and figure out how they can not necessarily work a full time gig for the man, but find ways in which they can be productive as a consultant or a freelancer or a contractor type of, type of position. So it's pretty interesting.

And you know what? I think that's good. I think that's healthy. Now, the one thing you didn't say that I want you to tell the audience is what's the typical age range you're talking about when you talk about your clients? Like how old are your clients? What's sort of the average age?

Well, it might be surprising because people typically will say that they align with who you are. That's the age. But our clients are, are low 50s is our average client. So. But I would say, you know, you have right in between kind of the 45 to 55 is that, is that sweet spot. But on average, you know, typically our clients are just a little bit above 50 years old.

Isn't it mind boggling that the government says, well, you can start withdrawing from your retirement account at age 59 and at age 70 you're forced to take distributions? I mean, that seems so young by today's standards, right? It does. Really? Yeah.

It's just the whole, it's based on this kind of axiom of what has always been the case, which has existed for multiple decades by now. And I interviewed Ted Benna, who is the actual first financial advisor and consultant that did a 401.

He, like Ted, invented the 401K. Right?

Well, he discovered it. The actual code existed from the whole, you know, Reagan era and how they would kind of redid the entire tax code.

So is this like 1986 he discovered. When did he discover it was the early 80s?

It was 80. Well, the 401k was put into the tax code in 1978 and then I think it was 1982 is when he discovered it. And the person that he created the whole plan for actually didn't end up doing it, but that's when he discovered it and he did it for other clients. And then it just started to take off, but it was never really meant as a retirement plan. But there's this, I don't know, there's this rhetoric out there, this kind of social agreement that we all have that at 60 years old, we retire, and at 60 or 65 or whatever the age is. But that is all based on just when life expectancies were maybe five to 10 years after your retirement age. And now they're well beyond that. But yet that, that, that date, that 60 years old, that milestone is, is still very, very much intact.

Yeah, it's. It's in people's mind. But I tell you, folks, if you really want to get this, I mean, look at you all know, people who are 50, 60, 70 years old, who are very young, and some of them that haven't aged well, and, you know, hopefully that's not you listening, that are very old at that for their age. Right. Like, I mean, I have a friend of mine. I'll keep them nameless. He doesn't to want really listen to the podcast anyway because he's hypnotized by Wall street and constantly complaining about how he's getting screwed and losing money. But, you know, probably because he knows me, he will never be investing in real estate because, I don't know, you know, it's like your, your friends and your family, they don't listen to you. Total strangers, thousands of them will listen to me. Okay. It's just weird.

That could be a podcast topic by itself.

Know, it's a strange thing. It's a strange phenomenon about human psychology. But, you know, he's. How old is my friend? He's probably 53 or 4 maybe. And he looks young, right? But he acts like a grandpa. I mean, he just acts like a grandpa. I don't, I don't get it. Like, you know, he's got his whole life ahead of him, but low testosterone, you think that's the, that's the grandpa thing, huh? Yeah. Okay, well, get into the gym, start working out, but, yeah, exactly. Good stuff. Well, Pat, thank you for joining us today and filling us in on some of that. And. Oh, but what I was going to say about the age thing is just all you need to do to understand the paradigm shift here is watch some old movies. And I'm not talking that old. Just watch some movies made in the 70s, okay? That's not that long ago. Okay. You know, in the world of movies and history and so forth, and just watch how they portray and look up on Wikipedia the age of that actor or actress. Right. And calculate the age they were when they did that movie, right? Say it's, you know, Robert De Niro, for example, right, from a 70s movie or something like that. And, you know, calculate his age when he did that movie, the year of the movie, the age of the actor today. Just do the math and just look at the portrayal. And De Niro just, I don't know why he came to mind, but you know, he did. But it could be anybody. And just look at the way they portray, say like a 40 year old. And it's just, just like a 40 year old back then was much older than a 40 year old today. I mean, it's just, it's dramatic. The shift is really dramatic. People, I don't think enough people notice that or give it credit. It's amazing. And, you know, if you listen to my longevity and biohacking show coast co hosted with Fernando, you can learn a lot more about how to stay young and live a long time and hack your biology and, and do so.

One more point, Jason. You look at really another one of these driving forces in the economy. It's this fascination with being healthier, living longer, having more vitality. And that's just, it's a drive, I think, by most human beings, especially Americans. And so if you look at really that demand, there's a lot of money, a lot of R and D, a lot of companies that are just compounding on one another's ideas to crack that code. And so that's also going to be another, again, one of those variables that is going to determine a lot of what the future is going to look like.

Good stuff. Well, Pat Donahoe, thank you so much for joining us today and we will see you at the next Venture Alliance Mastermind meeting coming up in just a couple of months. So we'll look forward to seeing you there.

Okay, likewise. Thank you, Jason.

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