CW 1099 - Socialization of Mortgage Industry, Rising Interest Rates, Changes at HUD & Gen Z Rents with The Real Estate Guys

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome listeners from around the world and thank you so much for joining me for episode 1099. 1099. Next up, we are here at episode 1100 and that is a 10th episode show. So we will have that coming up for you on the next show. But today we've got part two where we talk to the same gentleman as last time, those real estate guys. We're going to continue our conversation. It was a very interesting one last time and I think you'll be interested in part two of this one as well. You know, there's some really good news going on at hud. Ben Carson, presidential candidate who also has been on the show before, when we had Ben Carson on when he was running for president. You know, he's doing some good stuff with hud. There are some good fun free market oriented changes that are happening and they are proposing sweeping changes to the Section 8 rent rules and just some good dynamics. I'm very excited to see what HUD is doing. We talked in the past about how they were approaching fair housing and how they were approaching the housing shortages through a more free market approach, which I gotta say, I think these are good changes, you know, so we will see what this holds and, and we'll be talking about it in the future. And also I believe it will mean good things for us as investors. Not just good things for the overall economy, for the private sector, but specifically for us as real estate investors. And speaking of which, I wanted to address a good listener question that I got recently from Scott Wall. Hi Scott, how you doing? I'm sure you're listening. He's talking about how he has a primary residence, Jersey. It's a 50 year old bi level property, needs some work and renovation to every room. There were some maintenance problems I won't go into. He's been there 10 years and he's paid down around $50,000 in the principal. The mortgage balance and the house is in rough shape. It needs some work. As mentioned, he's worried that the economy is changing and the market is changing. And I agree that it is. Now, the one thing I don't know, SC is I don't know the value of your house. And the reason that would be important is from just the principle of relativity. When you say you've paid down 50,000 in principal, say it was a $200,000 loan, that's a 25% pay down. If it's a $500,000 loan, that's a 10% pay down. So you see, this would go into my decision. But your question is, you know, with a possible rollback in the economy, you say you're looking for a way to protect the equity stake in the home. Right. Is there a good way to do this? You're concerned about things changing. And this is a good question. And I've got a good answer. Here is the answer. Remember what I have said many times as I've talked about inflation induced debt destruction and the wonderful benefits of that. But I also say, what do I say? The best insurance is a high loan balance. The best insurance is a high loan balance. So my answer to your question of how to protect the equity in your home is to not have the equity in your home, to get that equity out of your home and get it into the bank or some other investments, diversify it, spread it around. You know, you could buy a couple of rental properties with, I don't know how much equity you have. You didn't say that. You only Talked about the $50,000 pay down. You might have $100,000 in equity or $300,000 in equity. I don't know the answer to that. But whatever equity you have, if you can pull it out at a reasonable good fixed rate loan, pull that equity out. Now, you can obviously do that one or two ways. You can sell it or you can refinance it. Either way will do. But the answer to that question is the best way to protect equity in your house is to not have equity in your house. It's to pull the equity out and have the equity somewhere else, somewhere where you have control of it. Now, I have made a few changes to my thinking. And lest you say, well, Jason, well, why aren't you following your own advice? Hey, look, I will be the first to tell you that I don't always follow my own advice.

I have said that many times. And usually when I don't follow my own advice. I regret it because, hey, my advice ain't bad, right? If you live in a state with good homestead protection and if you've got a reasonable amount of wealth and you're just looking for some places to sock away some cash, I think in those cases it may be worth having equity in your house. Now, if you live in a place like. And now, I'm sure New Jersey is not friendly in this regard, but basically this is what homestead protection is when I talk about it, right? Homestead protection basically says that if you have a creditor, right. If you ever get into a situation where you have a creditor, say from litigation or some liability that came out of something in your life, your business, or say you fell on hard times and you couldn't pay your debts or something like that. Well, homestead protection basically says, and you know, homesteads don't cover everything. Okay? Usually the government will be the first to exempt themselves from, from everything. They'll say, hey, if you owe the government money, homestead doesn't matter. But it does work if you owe a private citizen money or another institution money. Right? It works in those cases. So what it says is that there's a certain amount of equity in your home, your primary residence. This does not apply to rental properties in your primary residence that is protected from creditors. This may have changed over the years. I certainly haven't checked lately, but years ago it might still be the same. Maybe it's not, but the principle is the same either way. The homestead protection years ago was $75,000 in my home state, the state I spent the vast majority of my life. Yes, the Socialist Republic of California, for example. In my new state in Florida, it is 100%. So if you have a multimillion dollar home, free and clear in Florida, it's all homesteaded. You got to do a few little things to homestead it, but it's protected. Now you might remember the story, the famous story of a famous debtor. What was his name? Well, it was the infamous O.J. simpson, the Juice O.J. simpson, remember him? Remember when he was wrongly acquitted? Yes, wrongly acquitted. Usually I know the word that comes after that is wrongly acquitted. Convicted in this case, wrongly acquitted of the murder charges against Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. This was in what, the early 90s, mid-90s. Right. And we all remember the story of the famous white Bronco Chase and so on and so forth. Well, he got off on the criminal charges, but the Goldman family sued him civilly. And yes, you can. There are two things right you could be criminally tried for murder, obviously, but you can also be civilly tried because you have civil liability when you kill someone. Right. Thankfully, that we have the law to protect that. And so they won. And the Goldman family got a judgment against O.J. simpson for something to the effect of like, $33 million. Okay. A big, giant judgment. And O.J. immediately ran to Florida and bought an expensive house. Okay. I don't know exactly what the timing was. Maybe it was during the trial, slightly before the trial, or right after the trial, I'm not quite sure. But anyway, he lost. He had this judgment, and that house was protected because of the. Florida has very, very favorable homestead laws. The homestead laws in Florida, very favorable. Texas is another very favorable, favorable state. Not quite as good as Florida, but it does protect you, I believe, up to $1 million in homestead. But places like California, they offer very little protection. So there are some cases where if you've got a lot of cash and you're just looking for a few places to diversify it and sock it away, you know, it's probably better off in a property if you've got a whole bunch of money in the bank and you've got a whole bunch of real estate investments and businesses and whatever you have. Right. It all depends. Everything's a little different depending on who you are. But I did want to mention that because, you know, the way you can protect equity in your house is, number one, to not have equity in your house, or number two, have that equity in a very good homestead protected state. Now, of course, the homestead will not protect you against a downturn in the market. Right? That's just the market. Everybody is susceptible to that. That's what Scott's question is really about. So, Scott, thank you for the good question. That was an intriguing little question. I think for our listeners, another piece of good news is out. Now, we've talked a million times on the show over the last 14 years or so about the millennial generation. Almost to the point where I'm sick of talking about you millennials. I love you, but, hey, you know, you. You can't dominate the conversation forever. You gotta yield. You gotta give way to the next generation, the up and coming generation, Generation Z. And guess what, real estate investors, you're gonna like this. This is good news. Generation Z, according to analysts that track this kind of stuff, right? They say that Gen Z will outspend Gen Y, the millennial generation, on rent. Okay? By age 30, get this, the young generation, Gen Z, will shell out over $102,000 on rent by age 30. Now guess who's going to collect that $102,000? That's you, my dear listener, because you're following my plan. You're buying rental properties and, and you are going to be collecting that money. You are the beneficiary of that. And remember what I said several episodes ago? A kind of a new way of looking at things, right? Hey look, they abolish slavery. It's illegal, thankfully, right? To enslave people. But the banks have learned how to enslave people through debt. And we want to beat them at their own game by aligning our interest with the most powerful forces that have ever graced the planet Earth and governments and central banks. But guess what else? We want to have a little piece of that slavery action, okay? And we're going to do it through rent. Because remember, people work 30 days a month, right? Or not 30 days a month, but there's 30 days in a financial calendar month. It's always a 30 day month. That's how prorations are done, etc. Right. So people get this monthly income from working maybe 30 days a month. Hopefully they don't work quite that much. Maybe they're working 25, 20 days a month, whatever. About 1/3 to 40% of all of their gross, not net. Their gross earnings will typically go for rent. Yeah, they'll go for paying your mortgage payments, dear real estate investor. Yes, they will. 33 to 40% of their income. So remember, when they are going through that 30 day month, you know you're gonna own at least 10 days of that month. They are working for you. They're giving you all that money that they're earning for one third of the month or maybe 40% of the month. So up until from the 1st to the 10th of every month, they're definitely working for you because you're the landlord. But maybe until the 13th or 14th of the month, they're working for you too, right? Depending on what the rent to income ratio is. Right. If the rent income ratio is higher, they're working for you more. If it's lower, they're working for you less. So you get to play the game of the big banks and the big debt enslavers and student loan companies a little bit yourself. But thankfully you're providing a real service. Right. Those other groups out there, I don't like them so much because they're really shuffling papers and creating financial assets that are really largely thin air. Okay? And that's not real. We are giving people real estate to live in. That's a much nicer way to do it. And they're going to pay you handsomely for it. They're going to pay you very well. So good thing there. Okay, if you haven't done so already, make sure you're joining us for our upcoming Meet the Masters of Income Property, our annual event. And it is coming up in the next few months here in Southern California. So go register@jasonhartman.com masters jasonhartman.com masters get your early bird tickets for that. They are hot and they are a good deal right now. So make sure you take advantage of that as so many of you always do. For every Meet the Masters event, we will be announcing some guest speakers and it's just going to be a great event. So tickets are super cheap. Now. Take advantage of that and we will look forward to seeing you there in the next couple of months. Happy holidays to all. Merry Christmas to all. Of course, we have several additional episodes before the holidays here. Well, not several, but a couple of them. It's coming up fast. I hope you've got your shopping done. Let's get to our guest for part two of our conversation from Monday. Here we go.

John Nesbit, who wrote Megatrends and the Megatrends books, you guys know, of course, back in the 80s, he talked about the concept of high tech, high touch. And to your point that he said that jet engines being a high tech thing have only led to more meetings, high touch, people getting together. Right. So there's definitely a point. People want to get together. And also, I think people really underestimate the impact of technology. And I don't mean technology like, you know, platforms and things like this, like Airbnb, for example. I mean technology in terms of personal electronics, the portability of a recording studio in an iPhone. Okay, you can travel now a lot more. You know, your stereo system in the olden days used to have big giant speakers. And, you know, now it's kind of easy to move because all my stuff has become smaller and more portable. And so if I want to live, you know, in Florida the good months of the year and then be somewhere else in the world, you know the time when it's hot and disgusting in Florida in the summer. Right. You know, you can really do that nowadays pretty easily. And that was never possible before.

Yeah. I mean, you're talking about social stuff and I think that that's an important factor. I just look kind of at the economic stuff and I think a couple of the big trends are going to be what's going on with interest rates and I think what's going on with energy because, you know, both of those are major cost inputs into working class people's lives. It's a cost input to everybody's lives. But when you're living on 100% of your paycheck, then when you get a significant change, I mean, you know, we all know there are tenants out there that will move over A$25 a month rent increase and think about what it means when gas prices go up a little bit or their interest on their credit cards or, you know, their installment programs go up a little bit and for them to support their lifestyle. So I think the trend, I mean, talking, we're kind of talking about the future. We kind of talked a little bit about higher end, but I think where a lot of us live as real estate investors in the kind of the workforce type housing, the working class housing, I think it's going to still be harder for those folks to get a net increase in their discretionary income and it's going to be harder for them to accept rent increases. It's going to be more pressure for them to move from wherever they are down a little bit in a geography. So I think being careful about the product types you have and the price points you have in the geography you're in, but also being open to looking at other geographies because that's the way the tenant is going to look. To your point, Jason, about life being a little bit more mobile. It isn't as big a deal now for someone to say, gee, it's kind of expensive living here or the taxes are high here and I think I can have a better quality of life if I move to this other place. And it's easier for me to do that just based on the nature of the way our society works today.

No question about it. And one of the things that state governments better watch out for is that people can really vote with their feet a lot more easily than they ever could in human history.

Yeah, look what's happening in Illinois. I mean, they've been hemorrhaging people and what they do is they keep raising the property tax and they keep making it harder to do business and raising the taxes.

And people are, well, don't forget California.

Yeah, well, and people, people are just leaving, of course, the recipients. Like California, for example. Well, let's, you know, Illinois, you look at Indianapolis and some of the adjacent communities have been beneficiaries of that. In California, you've got Phoenix and Boise and Reno and Las Vegas and that have benefited from that. Yeah, exactly.

Three former Californians here talking about this.

Of course.

That's right. Hey, by the way, where do you guys live nowadays?

Yeah. So row 11, seat C is where I spend most of my time. I'm in the Dallas area and Russ is in Arizona. But not all the time. Right. So we spend time in other places, too. We've always been kind of mobile, you know, two guys with microphones in a suitcase. But it makes it easier than ever. And I think the other part of this. Do you think Share economy. Is the mindset of not just millennials, but people that spend time around millennials, is that I don't have to own the whole whole thing. I can rent a part of it, use a part of it. I had the same aversion if I. I hated to rent a car. I had cars in three different markets that we were interested in, like, just parked at the airport because I have this aversion.

Total waste of money. My. My car right now has been parked at the airport in Tampa, Florida, for. I mean, my parking bill is going to be $450 when I leave that parking lot. It's crazy. And I'm thinking, why do I even own a car? Right. It's not even know I pay $1,100 a month for my BMW, and what's the point of having it? It's just not really very necessary. It's a different mindset. This is changing, and I think real estate investors need to be very aware of this. Talking about the portability. When I pack now, you know, I can pack all of my audio books in my phone, all of my Kindle books. You know, I used to take books and tapes on trips with me. But it's just a much more lean, portable world. Right.

It so much is. And not only that, I think people realize in the richness of experience, that stuff is not as important as experiences. Being able to go to a place and check out the local culture and the local food. You know, big chains used to be super popular. Today, most people want to go to the cool, local place.

Yeah.

So that's a trend. And your point about real estate investors paying attention to this is critical now, I think the good news, long term, big picture, I don't see a technology coming along that's going to eliminate the need for humans to sleep under a roof.

Me neither.

So I think owning real estate to create wealth is a huge. It's been great. It's going to be great. You just have to pivot a little in the way that you think.

Okay, so how should people pivot? How should investors pivot that are listening to this?

Well, they should consider the things we've talked about and ask themselves this. How does my current portfolio work in this changing economy? From a social perspective, from a technology perspective, am I providing the things in my rentals that today's tenants want in terms of connectivity and ability to have social interaction and all those things? And then more importantly, as I'm looking at adding to my portfolio, what changes would I make? Because real estate is not an in and out investment for most people. Yeah, there are people that, you know, flip houses, but for the most part, if you're going to be a buy and hold long term investor, you're getting married to a market, you pick a market, you're going to be in that market for a while. Transaction costs are high to move in and out of stuff. So you have to be thinking based on what we would call zero based thinking. Knowing what I now know, would I still invest in this market? If the answer is yes, Great. Knowing what I now know, is there a place I should have. You know your point of going back, we should have bought everything we looked at.

Right?

Well, so now should have got a woulda. Right. But you have to say, okay, well, today's a new day. So based on all this input and other input. Right. What makes sense and what has a likelihood of success? Not just things this year, but over the next 5 years, 10 years, 25 years.

Interesting point. You know, I like to say that if you own an asset or you know, for example, it's a piece of real estate, maybe you own an expensive home in which you live in a place like California or New York or, you know, any of these overpriced markets. Right. Every day you don't sell that asset, you're buying it from yourself. So be very mindful of that, that nothing stands still. Every day you own it and you do not sell it, you are buying it back. So if things change and you still own it, you're going to be holding the bag. Right. And so that's one thing to think about. You talked Russell about the socialization of the mortgage industry and I thought that was an interesting theory. Can you talk to us about that a little bit?

Yeah, sure. Everybody put your tinfoil hat on and let's just.

I'm wearing mine.

Let's just go down the rabbit trail for a little bit. So I have a background in the mortgage business. When I decided to get out of the office supply business, And I wanted to get into this space. I decided to enter into the mortgage industry. I decided to do that in the late 90s, like right at the very end. Started in 2000. So I caught a nice wave. It was based on a macro trend I saw, which was baby boomers moving their asset allocation model more towards bonds from stocks. And I thought, there's going to be a lot of money going into bonds, and that would be good for interest rates and be good to be in the mortgage business.

Okay. So when that money goes into bonds, remember when you own a bond, it's just the other side of a loan. And so it pumped a lot of money into the mortgage market, and it made not only the interest rates lower, but the qualifying easier because there was such a supply of money, they had to get rid of it. It's kind of like the institutional investors. They got to deploy the capital and they'll take a deal that's really not that great a lot of times. So same thing happened in mortgage. Really? Right.

Yeah. At the end of 99, the Clinton administration really lowered the standards for FHA, Fannie. And of course, George W. Bush got credit for the home boom that came as a result of that. And he also, at the tail end of it, got caught in the bubble it created. So there's a whole thing that happened. But my point of all that is that we watched the Obama administration come in and make an attempt, a second attempt. Hillary Clinton tried to do it in 92, and then Obama came in and did it successfully in kind of really getting the government very heavily involved in health care. What a lot of people didn't recognize is exactly the program that was being used in health care is what they did in the mortgage industry. And here's what happens when you go into an industry and you subsidize a player. And in this case, Fannie and Freddie were created, you know, to basically subsidize mortgages. It meant that the four profit players couldn't make profit, so they had to find another place in that pool to play. So they had to move out to the alt paper and the subprime paper because that's where the margins were. They couldn't be in the sweet spot because Fannie and Freddie sucked all that up and it was subsidized. Right. Okay. So now as people gorge themselves on all of that debt, and that's exactly what happened, because that's natural human behavior. You know, you lower the price, people are going to stock up. And that's what they did. And then all Of a sudden it crashed. The market seized up. You could do a deep dive into all the reasons why it happened. But at the end of the day, the net, net net of it is subprime went completely away. All those alt, a new century. And all Those, you know, IndyMac, all.

Those places, they died.

They all died. And who stepped into their place? FHA became the new subprime. Right. And Fannie and Freddie, who went broke, only got bigger. So now look at the government, how much debt the government owns. And if you know the old scripture, a borrower, servant to the lender, you have to say, wow, is that like kind of a weird deal, right?

It is. And you know what's interesting about that? One of our people, Kerry Lutz, he always says that the government is always the willing loser in every deal, in every business deal, the government will always take the worst deal. The private sector will not accept that deal. But so when you talk about fha.

It'S interesting, but what it does is when you introduce a not for profit player, you know, at one point President Obama said, look, I'm not, look, trying to take away your options. All I'm trying to do is introduce a non profit option. Well, when you introduce a nonprofit option in a for profit pond, you've poisoned the pond for the for profit people and they're eventually going to go broke. And that's what began to happen.

They can't compete. My health insurance went through the roof after that.

That's right. That's right. So you end up backdooring the concept of coming to single payer. Well, this kind of happened in the mortgage industry now. As soon as that happened, we recognized it and that's why we got really heavily involved in teaching syndication because we said, look, there's going to be an opportunity for private capital, but it's not going to be private capital through the mortgage channel because that had been destroyed. With Dodd Frank, I got out of the mortgage business because it was just too hard to be in it. Right. But you can still finance properties through private capital. And so we decided to focus on syndication. But the entire mortgage industry changed at that particular point in time. And you know, I mean, it became a lot harder, harder to use that kind of money. We had to find a different way to play.

Very interesting thoughts on that.

Well, and I think the, the bigger picture there is that just like we're talking at the beginning about consolidation and the institutionalization of single family homes, it was that thing with the same thing with the loans and now all of a sudden the loan brokers were out of business or had to change their business model and they went to riskier stuff. By definition, the lender's going to take risk for reward and if you want more margin, you're going to take the lesser borrower. And when that stuff defaulted, no surprise, it left its carnage in its wake. So the big conspiracy question is, was that all done by design?

Well, I mean, think about it. So the mortgage channel after the savings loans was destroyed and did that happen? Was that an accident or did that happen on purpose?

Okay, so just to give a time period, we're talking about Charles Keating, we're talking about Lincoln Savings and loan, Ronald Reagan, SNL crisis, you know, late 80s, early 90s.

That's right, that's right. So the savings and loan industry and that basically fed the savings loan industry to the banks. Okay. And then the mortgage channel developed and by the mid 2000, you know, 2005 or so, the mortgage channel was doing about 75% of all the mortgage volume.

So something that happened there that changed the world was the first, the first private mortgage backed securities that changed the world. And I don't know the exact year, I think that was about 2004 ish, I want to say.

Yeah. So what happened is the Clinton administration and the Republican Congress with the Contract with America started refinancing all the long term debt to short term debt and it created a temporary budget surplus. And so when there wasn't Treasuries abundant, the Wall street started packaging up securities in mortgages and, and build them is just as safe based on the historical pricing pattern of real estate. Just as safe as Treasuries but with better yield.

And you heard the slogan is safe as houses. And apparently it wasn't very safe.

Well, again, they changed the rules. Right, and you mentioned that earlier as we were talking about this industry changing, when things change, when the tax code changes, when things change, you have to realize that the old rules no longer apply Anyway, so we were very connected at the time with a lot of people at the upper echelons of the mortgage industry, especially in the brokerage side. And they all felt very, very strongly to a person that it was all orchestrated, it was specifically done on purpose to destroy that channel in favor of the banks.

Fascinating. Do do do do. Where's the Twilight Zone music? Yeah. Wow.

Yeah.

And so now, you know, the Federal Reserve, which is the mother of all banks, ended up with all kinds of toxic assets. Right? They ended up with a lot of those mortgages. So you know, we know that Student debt is the number one holding of the federal government. And we know that mortgages is the number one holding of the Federal Reserve. That is basically, if you tie that to the concept of the borrower servant to the lender, who do we all work for?

Very interesting. You know, this is the old thing, the famous Watergate saying, follow the money, follow the money. Right. And you always got to follow the money. But the money, that trail is never quite as simple as it might appear, is it?

It's not. And that's, that's good and that's bad. Right. One of the things about real estate is it's not a perfect market, it's not efficient, but that lets us exploit things like this. And we're maybe in your portfolio. If you're listening, you're never going to be one of these folks that has 100,000 houses. But you don't have to be. You can come alongside, learn what they're doing, like we are here, figure out how it works for you, find markets that make sense, develop relationships with providers. I mean, that's what the whole game is, is think on a big level, but you have to act locally.

Yeah, that's, that's good. I think let's kind of wrap it up with that. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

Oh, thanks for having us, Jason. And thanks for letting me go. A little tinfoil hat there.

I loved the tinfoil hat talk and we should explore that more on a future episode.

Thanks, my friend. Always good to see you and thanks for having us on the program.

It was great to have you. That's the real estate guys and we will talk to you on the next episode.

Welcome to today's property profile on the Creating wealth show. This is Adam. Today we're going to take a look at a property that's currently available through Jason's network. Located in Rock Island, Illinois, this is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath, 1800 square foot single family home that is located in Rock Island, Illinois. Rock island has a history of bridge building and is the founding city of the Chicago Rock island and Pacific Railroad, also known as the Rock Island Line. Rock island hosted the founding game in the league that eventually became the NFL. Rock Island's largest employer is the Rock Island Arsenal, which employs roughly 8,500 people in a town with a population around 40,000. Unfortunately, Rock island has been seeing a population decrease in recent decades with most of the losses coming during the 1990s. The people in Davenport have an average age of 36, a median household income of just under 35,000, a family median income of just over $45,000. This property's $115,000 price tag gives it a cost per square foot of $64. It is currently in rehab, so expect 45 to 60 days to close with a gross rent of $1,100. With an RV ratio of 0.96% and assumptions of 8% vacancy, 5% maintenance, 9% management fee and 25% down $28,750 and an interest rate of 5.75%, you're looking at a cash flow of about $156. Your cash on cash would be about 5%, and a total return on investment with tax savings would be in the 28% neighborhood. If you're interested in this property, contact your investment counselor and tell them you want more information about the property linked in the show. Notes for more properties available in Jason Hartman's network, go to jasonhartman.com properties obviously, this information is not guaranteed and investors should do their own research, get professional advice and conduct due diligence prior to investing, but we're doing our best to help.

Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show's specific website and our general website, hartmanmedia.com for appropriate disclaimers and terms of service. Remember that guest opinions are their own, and if you require specific legal or tax advice or advice in any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional and we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to itunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you're using and write a review for the show. We would very much appreciate that and be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes or we look forward to seeing you on the next episode.