CW 1130: How to Fall In Love by Richard Marek & Avoiding Real Estate Scams

Yeah, my passion for real estate really has taken over my, my passion for technology. So it's been, it's been really fun, you know, over these six years getting closer and closer into real estate to the point that I can really, you know, that it's my day job now focusing on real estate, you know, hosting, co hosting with you, the Women Investing Network podcast, which is a lot of fun, amazing guests going into that, being able to have the time to participate in the Venture alliance mastermin Group, which I adore, and it has added an incredible amount of value to me. And then also being able to have the time to go to like, I'm going to the Oklahoma City property tour that's coming up and I'm super excited about that. Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome listeners from around the world and happy Valentine's Day. This is episode 1130. 1130. Thank you so much for joining me. And before we talk about love, and that is what our guest will talk about today, how to fall in love. I want to talk to you about a couple of scams.

And these deserve elaboration on future episodes. And we, we will deliver that. But just briefly, let's go into that. I've got Adam here with me and he has noticed these and I was listening to an audiobook this morning and thinking about them. So we got to talk about this today while it is hot on my mind. Adam, welcome. How are you doing?

I'm doing great. Good to see you worked up over the bad things people are doing out there.

And I get so worked up. Do you know what my real passion is? It's consumer advocacy. And it is law in the public interest. And if I had the time, money, resources, well, I mean, I got the money, but not this much money. I would just basically open up a company or a foundation, another charitable foundation of some sort to engage in what is known as law in the public interest, where, you know, we basically just litigate to change the law and right various wrongs that you see out there in society. You know, this is what a lot of groups do. It's what the Electronic Frontier foundation does. It's what the ACLU does. I mean, the aclu, as much as I hate them half the time, some, you know, sometimes I like them. They've got, like, I don't know, hundreds or maybe thousands of lawyers just litigating and filing what's known as amicus briefs, which amicus just means friend of the court, where it's a case that they're not actually litigating themselves, but they file a brief as an opinion stating their position on a case somebody else is litigating. And, you know, this is the way society is shaped. It's shaped by the laws, and that's, you know, what is known as law in the public interest. And I tell you, if I had the resources, I would be filing some cases. On what I'm about to talk about today, I posted in our private Facebook group, Adam, and you saw it this morning, a screenshot of this appraisal thing. Right. And here's the thing about this. This really does cut both ways. Okay. So it's not an either or, always this or never that type of thing. Right. But one of our prior affiliates, we didn't like the way this particular company was dealing with appraisal issues, so we stopped referring clients to them. I noticed. I mean. Well, why don't you tell us about what I posted, since I won't do all the talking here.

So you posted the thing, and it was a screenshot of their appraisal policy.

It's on their website. So if you want to buy a property from them, you got to agree to this before you even inquire about a property. Oh, my God.

So their policy is as long as they don't overcharge you by more than $5,000 based on the appraiser, you have to continue purchasing the property through them.

Yeah. So you're basically agreeing to give up your checks and balances. Right. The appraiser is a check and imbalance. Now, admittedly, appraisals are wrong all the time, and in a really hot market, you know, a lot of times you have to agree to, not necessarily completely waive an appraisal contingency when purchasing a property. But if you want to buy a property, there are a lot of times where you're going to have to put up some money. To meet. Meet the seller maybe halfway.

Right. But you don't agree to that before you even start the process.

Exactly. Adam, you're exactly right. It should be situational. It should not be a this way or the highway type of thing. Right?

Yeah. I wonder if they're also recommending what appraiser to use.

They don't have as much control over that as they used to before the financial crisis, thankfully, but they still do exert some control. And the problem is you get this chummy environment where the lender is in bed with the seller and they have connections to the various appraisers and, you know, they can't really influence the appraisal as much as they used to, thankfully, but they still do exert some influence over it. But let me tell you what happens before this. This is what's really important, okay? This is. This is the big scam. Okay? So, you know, as our listeners know, there are basically three ways to appraise a property. There's the income approach, commonly used in larger commercial properties, and the property is valued based on how much income it generates. There is the comparison approach commonly used in residential properties where they will look at three comparable sales and they'll say, okay, this property, based on those three comparable sales and its specific location in the neighborhood and its upgrades and the quality of it, this is what it's worth. Somewhere near the average of those three recent comparable sales. And then there is the cost approach where, you know, the appraiser just looks and they say, okay, well, this is what it would cost to rebuild this property. And to some extent, in all of these approaches comes into play this concept of what's known as highest and best use. Okay, highest and best use. And so with simple single family homes, this isn't that complicated, but with larger properties, that can really come into play, that highest and best use thing on those three approaches. So here is the real scam, okay? It's not just this ridiculous appraisal language that this seller wants you to agree with, you know, the person we're not referring customers to, at least not right now. Maybe they'll clean up their act, but we're not going to let our clients agree to this type of stuff. It is basically where, look at these sellers are all investors and they will go into neighborhoods and they will buy properties and they will buy them with cash and they will overpay for them. Intentionally, intentionally overpay. Now you're thinking, well, why would someone intentionally overpay for a property? Well, if they had a bigger vision and A bigger mission. And this is not a. When I say vision, usually that's used in a positive sense. I'm not using it that way now. It's an evil, diabolical vision. Okay. Because if they overpay for three properties in order to set the comps for the appraisal, then they can buy up a bunch of other properties in that area and use those comps to overvalue the whole neighborhood. Okay. And then they can increase their margin on those additional properties. What do you think about that?

I think it's an ingenious but incredibly intelligent scam at the same time. I mean, it requires a lot of planning and a lot of deception. So it's one of those things where you kind of tip your hat at their ingenuity but are disgusted by the actions.

Right, right. Like a criminal genius, like Bernie Madoff. Right, exactly, exactly. Well, it's not really that hard. You just buy three properties.

I didn't say it was hard. I just, you know, the idea of coming up with that to do it is not something I would think to do.

Right. Because you are a decent, ethical person. But.

This is what these people do. This is what they do. It's really.

When you, when you can set the comps like that, I mean, it's a slippery slope down a higher rating, especially if you can buy it at a higher price than you should and then also fix it up and make it even. Worth. Worth even more. I mean, that's.

Yeah, right. Well, that's a legitimate adding of that.

Right. But I'm just saying if you can start it with that, start it at a higher basis and then also put some money in and build up the cost, I mean, that's just going to raise everything.

Okay, so this leads me to the next issue, and this is the next kind of component of the scam. You'll hear some people advertise and promote saying, don't work with a turnkey company like ours. In the industry, we would be considered a turnkey aggregator, I guess. Okay. They would say, well, just work with us because we're the seller, okay? And we have more control. But this control creates exactly all of these problems. Because when they have control over everything, you know, oh, here's another scam they'll do. They'll basically pay for a lot of the maintenance issues themselves out of that increased profit margin that ill gained increased profit margin by, you know, puffing the appraisals. They'll pay for some of these repairs and maintenance things themselves in the beginning to make the Property look like it's performing better than it really is. So that is another part of it. Now, when you have. When you're dealing with a seller, number one, they are going to be very biased in terms of the areas and properties they recommend.

Okay, all the best.

Yep, they have all the best properties. And now's the time you got to buy. Right. And they're also controlling the values. And you've got no one watching that. Right. You've got nobody watching that. Think about this thing we started with today about this appraisal thing. You know, look at. If we overcharge you by 5,000 or 10,000, tough luck, you gotta pay the difference. That's basically what they're saying here in the appraisal process, the language they have here. But think about how that plays out. If they're going to end up selling 30, 40 or 50 properties in that area, if they can bump these comps by $10,000 apiece, that is a giant difference in their profit margin. It can add up to millions of dollars over the course of a couple of years. It's a giant, giant difference. And so this is why you don't want to go directly to the seller, because the seller has too much control and they have too much bias, and they're definitely not area agnostic and they're. They've got all of that additional control of the deal. So, you know, there's just a lot more than meets the eyes to this stuff. I mean, hey, look, I bought my first rental property in 1985, okay? A lot of people, you know, they've been doing this since 2009.

You know, you just gotta go through a lot of problems and headaches and have some people rip you off before you learn stuff. So the goal of this show is to help you avoid getting ripped off. You can learn from my lessons rather than your own. But just wanted to share a couple of things there with you because I was. It was really top of mind today. Any thoughts, Adam, on that?

Yeah, I would say. And we were talking about having the control and exerting it. I found whenever I purchased properties through the Hartman Network, that I've had times where I couldn't get an answer from a provider that I needed. And I would call them, I would email them, and nothing. And then as soon as my investment counselor got included in the thread, it got responded to. It was incredible. I was sitting at my computer just three hours after they had sent the email going, why wouldn't they respond to me?

Right. Yeah, yeah, that's why. You need that third party that checks and balances.

And it's because I can't pull, you know, 100 clients, 200 clients away from their sales. I can only pull myself away.

Right. We're basically like a buying club. We're going to demand that these providers, that these sellers of these properties act better because we give them such a volume of business and they're going to hopefully really value that relationship. Now, I have to tell you, this power has been reduced over the last couple of years. We do not have the power we used to have, but things will change. You know, it's basically two years out of every 10 years. That's the typical cycle where that power wanes on our part. But the other eight out of 10 years, we really hold those cards. So, you know, it's been definitely more of a struggle lately to get these people to act right. And I've talked about that a lot how, you know, a booming economy and a booming market is really not good for human character. It's sort of like a spoiled child, don't spoil your kids. It's not good for their character. Right. And it's the same kind of concept here. So the battle continues.

Yeah, it's hard to get control over somebody who has language in their contract that they can overcharge you, right?

Yeah, we get to overcharge you. Thank you very much.

You can do that whenever the market's this hot.

Yeah, you really can. When the market is hot, the weasels and thieves, idiots, they just come out of the woodwork. Everybody and their brother is coming out of the woodwork in a hot, booming market, in a down market. That's when you see the more established, real players that are going to stick around. You know, these are just the opportunists, the vultures that come in when things are easy. Right. They can just swoop down, make some money, and then they can go, you know, go back to their job delivering pizza during the recession. Okay.

It's truly mind boggling. But all of that said, it's better than Wall street. Okay? So there you go. It's better than the organized crime on Wall Street.

High bar there.

Yeah, exactly. Very high bar. We just want to share this stuff with you when we see it and when we're thinking about it, because we're in this for the long game and we just want you to be a very empowered investor. So I hope that helps. Hey, Adam, we gotta mention today, and today only, we have a Valentine's Day sale. We used to run this thing called Frugal Friday years ago. We're going to bring it back where we offer very big discounts on some of our educational products and sometimes our live events. And today for Valentine's Day, we are offering just that. Go to jasonhartman.com you can take advantage of that. You can get the Meet the Masters audios from last year at half price today and today only. Okay. So take advantage of that and also join us for this year's Meet the Masters in Newport Beach, California in March. We look forward to seeing you there. Jason hartman.com masters for that. And Adam, let's get to our guest.

Happy Valentine's Day.

Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. And here's our guest talking about how to fall in love.

Join us March 23rd and 24th for the 2019 Meet the Masters of Income Property.

Let's break this down and look at some of the strengths of income property as an asset class. I found that this event is really.

Helpful because I'm totally a newbie to real estate investment and so I picked.

Up so much information. One of the great things about it is that it's so fragmented. Right? Embrace the fragmentation.

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Register now@jasonhartman.com Masters.

It's my pleasure to welcome Richard Merrick. He's the former president of E.P. dutton, an accomplished book editor and publisher and editor of James Baldwin's last five books, Robert Ludlum's first nine books and novels by Peter Straub, Thomas Harris, including the Silence of the Lambs, Ben Stein and David Morrell. He's author of the new book how to Fall in Love, a novel. Richard, welcome. How are you?

I'm fine, thank you. And I should say quickly that it's I'm a co author. My wife and I wrote the book together.

Fantastic. Well, that's a good way to stay in love by saying that.

Well, it was a big help.

Okay, fantastic. Where are you located?

We are located in Westport, Connecticut.

Okay, great. Well, this is an age old question and it's very fitting given the time of year with Valentine's Day. How do you fall in love?

You meet someone who is initially extremely attractive, not necessarily physically, although that helps. Attractive in brain, in manner, in thought, every way. There is to be attractive. And then you see each other over and over again until it grows. My wife, first wife, whose name was Margo, had recently died of a glioblastoma. And I was in despair. And a friend of mine called me and said, all you're doing is watching football games. That's not going to get you anywhere. Why don't you come to a party? So I came to a party. And into the room walked a dazzling young lady whose name was Dalma Hai. And while I was initially attracted to her beauty, we sat together. There were four other people at the party and we ignored them. We just talked to each other. Couldn't have been Ruger. But nevertheless, something sparked. And I think that spark is pretty undefinable. I think it's something that happens between people. The thesis of the book is that it really can't happen through texts, through mechanical means. It can only happen in the presence of the person you are with.

Right.

I had been married for 27 years. And the next morning I thought I would call her. In fact, I was sure I would call her. But I've never been such a nervous wreck. How do you call somebody after 27 years and ask for a date? But I did. My hands were sweaty, but I held onto the phone and called her. And she accepted the date. And that started our relationship.

Okay, so you're saying that really these modern technologies we have are not helping. They are actually inhibiting people's ability to find love? Is that what you would say?

I think that's true.

Okay.

And I think I can write a pretty witty response to a question. But I'm tongue tied when I'm in the presence of somebody who I'm attracted to.

Oh, yeah, me too. Why is it that everybody always says I'm a great conversationalist, I have the gift of gab. I hear that all the time. Yet you put a pretty girl in front of me and I just don't know what to say exactly. Yeah, totally.

Well, we worked that through and we talked and we talked about all number of subjects, many of which were things we agreed upon. A love of music, for instance.

Right.

A love of Italian food.

Okay, so that's all great, everything in common, etc. But here's the thing. Would you admit that maybe, you know, you happened to go to that party, you might not have gone. You might have stayed home watching football and missed out. Is there some degree of luck in this? I mean, a lot of people haven't met that person, you know? And yes, you could certainly say well, they're spending too much time in front of their computer and they're busy on social media, but they should be going out to meet people. But, but here's the reality though, is that other people are doing that same thing too. So people just in general aren't going out as much. And it's. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes. Right. You might be willing to go out and give up the computer screen, but it requires the rest of the world going out too to meet you.

Right?

Yes, I think that's true. But sooner or later, and it's generally sooner, if you're in the mood for love, it will happen. We have a cubit in the book whose job it is. He's losing his job because of these machines. And Jove tells him that he's going to be downsized if he doesn't find two people who will fall in love by meeting each other. And we have them do it with all. She is a ballet dancer and a reluctant looker for a companion and he is a very tongue tied editor who is very happy with a series of affairs. And yet something happens. They see each other, they're attracted to each other, and there's a build of love with all sorts of problems that you, that you think of when you're writing a novel. But there's a build to love and he and she fall in love.

So certainly you've heard the same stories I've heard, I'm sure. I mean, I have many friends and clients who have met online, many through match.com especially, I'd say. But you know, even Tinder and all the rest, bumble, whatever, they met that way and now they're married or in a serious relationship. Sure, you know, what about that? I mean, it just brings them to meeting. Right? It's not a.

Of course it can happen, but I just think that it's quicker if you don't use those machines. You just, you see somebody at a party or at a friend's house or at a convention or at a PTA meeting and love starts there. I am convinced of it.

Yeah, well, like we talked about, I mean, I don't disagree that in person meeting, there's too many obstacles to in person meeting. I mean, it has become so bad that literally, I think we have an entire generation, maybe two generations of people who can't even pick up a phone. I mean, meeting, meeting, meeting would be an incredible stretch. They can't even talk on the phone, for God's sake. I mean, you know, it's just A bunch of text messages. How can you express any degree of feeling through a text based message? It's pathetic. I mean, email, text message board, social media, whatever, right? We were not created to talk in writing. That. That was not the way we were created to communicate. Writing only has two real purposes, in my opinion. Number one, highly technical things need to be written. Okay. And I'll just clump in there with the same thing. Technical and legal things need to be written. And then the other purpose, to save things for posterity. I mean, certainly, you know, we would identify the beginning of civilization was with written things. You know, hieroglyphics and then, you know, clay tablets and so forth. Right? Writing has its place, but the problem is people have substituted it and put it in all the wrong places. I was trying to hire a vendor recently who we would have paid a lot of money to. The guy's a millennial who can't talk on the damn phone. I mean, it's pathetic. He's like, I only communicate by email. Well, guess what? We're not hiring you if you can't talk to us.

Right? And I think that goes for love, too. I'm not gonna fall in love with you unless you can talk to me and I talk to you.

Similarly, we were created to talk. This, by the way, is a good place for a small, non commercial. But I hate text messaging. I hate email. I use an app called Voxer. I have no financial interest in this, but it is a voice messaging app. So, you know, if people aren't available in real time by phone, you can message them with a voice message. And so much more data is carried over a voice message than in a written message. I mean, we've all had these written messages, emails, social media posts that turn into these giant misunderstandings, and friendships are ruined because people misinterpret the message. Hardly ever does someone misinterpret a voice based message, especially in person. If you're in front of the person, it's almost never misinterpreted.

You and I are on the same page.

Yeah.

There's another reason for writing, and that is simply to impart information. When soon after my dharma and I first met, I went to Cairo on an assignment for the government.

Yep. One of the most polluted cities in the world. I've been there. I got sick in two days. In Cairo?

Well, yes, I had been there once before and so knew not to get sick or at least to be careful. And I wrote her every night. Long, long letters. But they were letters of information. This is what I did in the morning and this is what I did in the afternoon. And then I. Some friends took me out to dinner and I love you very much, but that was. She used to wait by the fax machine because in those days we faxed and when it rang, she was very happily read them. But there was no emotion in these.

Right.

There was love, but there was not the kind of love that you can generate face to face.

Yeah, there's just much more data in a voice based communication, especially if you add body language. I mean, literally, it's like being one dimensional versus being multi dimensional. Right. You know, Absolutely. It's just I. I think the whole world started going downhill when email came along. I mean, it's just. It's just. It's just a terrible way to communicate. It's.

You and I could. Great friends. I certainly agree.

Yep. Yep. Well, hey, catch me on voxer.

And also the tone of voice when you're speaking to somebody.

Yeah, absolutely.

Enormous amount.

Yeah. Tone, cadence, pacing, you know, all sorts of things. The pregnant pause. Yeah. And it's interesting that you agree with this when you come from the world of book publishing. I mean, you built a tremendous career in book publishing, but all of your work was in the novel, in the fiction side, wasn't it?

No, I did a lot of nonfiction too.

Okay, all right.

Mostly on subjects rather than biography, but fiction is my love and fiction is what I read for the most part, when I'm alone.

Good, good stuff. More about how to fall in love. Okay, so get out from under the computer screen. There's this great video, by the way, that went around on social media here. It's a contradiction, I know, but it's called look up and it was about. Yeah, maybe you've seen it eight years ago, it went around and it was about these, These two, you know, attractive young people. And she always had her head buried in her smartphone. He always had his head buried in his smartphone. They were both looking for love. They were both lonely. And it showed them walking through the city and passing by each other many times. They never saw each other because they were so buried into their phone. Right. It's a sad. I don't know. How do you fix this?

How do you fix it? You look up.

Yeah, well, fair enough. Yeah. At least one person can look up.

Well, yes, and if one person does, the other person will try to see where he's looking.

Good stuff. Okay, so engage in person, or at least by phone if you're not directly in person. That. That's a Good start. Anything else? What else do you talk about in the book?

Be honest, be frank, and display your weaknesses as well as your strengths. We pretty much know, Dalton and I, what our foibles were, what are they often likely to go wrong. And we fought from time to time, but always with a sense that we were telling each other the truth. Once you start overlaying God, you're beautiful, and I just worship the very ground you walk on. You're in trouble, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good stuff. Anything else?

How to Fall in Love. A novel has almost all of this right, And I think that readers will find the two characters human. Even though there's a God that initially puts them together, he's not needed. The arrow doesn't necessarily have to strike for love to blossom.

So what does that mean, the arrow? So you're talking about Cupid's arrow, obviously. What does that mean? It means that you might not feel that way instantly. Or what do you mean when you say that?

It means that it doesn't take an outside God or person to ignite this love. And he, while he's very proud of himself putting them together in the first place, steps out of the picture and lets them handle it. Lets them handle their fights, lets them handle their sex. Let them handle their love.

Is it healthy to fight?

Oh, I think it's very healthy.

Why? Just a catharsis or for what reason?

We're not perfect every hour of the day or every minute of every hour and without disagreement, without fighting. I think something is lost. My first wife and I, I was married for 20 over 20 years to my first wife, and she and I never fought. And I think it was a mistake. We don't fight much down then on, and we didn't fight at all in the writing of the book. She wrote the women's part and I wrote the man's. Somehow we found a style or a tone or a voice that cohered so a reader would not know who wrote chapters one, three, and five, I think, at all.

What do you think about the concept? And I mean, of course, this, what I'm about to say, has a different meaning for everybody. But what do you think about the concept of the. Or the, you know, phrase, the thrown around soulmate? Do you believe that, you know, everybody has, like, one soul mate and. Or do you believe it's possible to have that soulmate relationship with, you know, a variety of people? I. I don't mean all at once. I think soulmate over time.

Yeah. Soulmate is one connection that is important. And certainly important between murderers. But I had a male friend for almost 50 years until he died. We called each other every day or almost every day and talked about the things that we cared about and believed in, from politics to music to literature. And he was. I mean, I understood him and he understood me as well as I would suspect, a married couple. Yeah, sure, you can have. You can be a soulmate to more than one person.

Sure. Okay. I don't know if you ever followed him, his work, when he was alive, but I remember something in my reading many years ago of Scott Peck, who is now pretty sure deceased, and he talked about the idea of standing in love versus falling in love. How most people, they mistake falling in love with the idea of standing in love. And as I recall, the standing in love idea sort of alluded to more of a commitment versus a falling in love was like a feeling. Right. Most people mistake falling in love for standing in love. Any thoughts on that? Did you ever fall in love?

I remember M. Scott Peck, wasn't it?

Yeah. M. Scott Peck. Yeah. The Road Less traveled.

That's right. I think that you don't have to work at standing in love. Love will get you to stand. And unless you stand, love will probably be fleeting. So I agree with Mr. Peck. It's a very interesting notion. I hadn't thought of it until you brought it up just now, but I like it. Maybe it'll be in our second book.

I gotta ask you something for. For the younger folks out there. And I recently, I don't know, I saw some documentary or something on Netflix just about how, like, young people date and how they view the world of relationships nowadays. And it's so foreign to me, but what do you think about this sort of casual hookup culture that exists nowadays, especially with these dating apps? I mean, I view that as of part pretty destructive. But then I look back and I look at old movies and TV shows about the 60s and the early 70s, and I don't know, maybe it's just another iteration of that because it was pretty much the free love environment back then, too. Yeah.

I don't understand it. I don't see how you can hook up. I'm not interested in. I wasn't interested ever in hooking up.

Yeah, I would agree.

Find somebody. And there were a lot of hookups along the way.

Sure.

And you go home late at night and say, what was that all about? But it ain't the same thing. It really is.

It's interesting. I just sort of wonder, you know, it's always Interesting. Like, what will become of these people when they grow up and run the world in 20, 25 years?

Most of them will be in love. They'll have outgrown it.

Yeah, yeah. It's just a phase. Okay, that's. That's a good sign. That's a good sign. At least they can get the book on Amazon, of course, and all the usual places. I don't mean to mention just Amazon, but any other information you want to give out. I know you're not much of an Internet guy or.

A fan of Amazon and of our publisher. He's very good at this kind of thing.

And just quickly, in closing, I just thought I'd ask you. You had an extraordinary career in the book publishing and editing business. Where is that industry going nowadays? Just quickly. I mean, you know, we saw the revolution of self publishing maybe started 20 years ago.

And how much time do you have?

Well, yeah, I know this is a whole nother show, but just any quick thoughts briefly?

I believe that self publishing is better than not publishing because firms like Amazon, which does a lot of self publishing, can get the book distributed, or at least get it on.

And the fact is that there is, even now, in Montana, in a cave, a hermit who has spent his entire life thinking and feeling, and he's written down something that nobody's ever said before and that no matter how it's presented, will live eternally. I believe that to the bottom of my song. And you don't find it often, but maybe with an M, Scott Peck, or certainly with a Shakespeare, you find it and it's immortal. That's all people always write. They have from the beginning of time, as you say.

Very interesting thoughts. Richard, thank you so much for joining us.

My pleasure. I enjoyed this very much. Thanks a lot.

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