CW 350: Innovative Leadership Models with Doug Conant Former CEO of Campbell Soup Company & Author of ‘Touch Points’

Welcome to Creating wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven't thought of before. And a new slant on investing fresh new approaches to America's best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multimillionaire who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He's been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and South 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show. This is your host, Jason Hartman. This is episode number 350 and as you regular listeners know this, this is the tenth episode. So we go off topic and talk about personal development rather than strict real estate investing and economics stuff. However, in our intro today, I've got a few things to talk about and the first of which is to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving in North America. This is Thanksgiving and so I wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving and remind all people though around the world, in 154 countries listening to our show, this is, you know, a good time to just reflect in general even if you don't celebrate Thanksgiving and just count your blessings and remember we have a lot to be thankful for, especially if we can listen to this show that we can have computer, we can be connected to the world and regardless of our level on the socio economic pyramid of life, we all have a lot to be thankful for. So Happy Thanksgiving to you and just want to start off talking a little bit today about that big economic powerhouse in the US and that great place to invest in income, property and that is the good old state of Texas, the Lone Star state. And I'm looking at a Time magazine article from October 28th here just a few weeks ago and it's got Texas in the COVID and it talks about the United States of Texas, why the Lone Star State is America's future and how, how great the business model of Texas is. And that business model basically is low taxes, business friendly environment and how it's attracting so many people to that state. Now I want to mention something though about that. You know, when we talk about different markets around the country, as I've mentioned before, it's not just about the marketplace, it's also about the team that we have in that market, the provider we have in that market. There are Markets that we want to be in, but we don't have a good team. There are markets we've been in where our team, well, they've disappointed us, frankly. And then, you know, that's just like if you work at Apple Computer and gosh, those people at. What's that? Fox. Foxconn, that's their big manufacturing source in China. And if they don't get the product out quickly enough or the product has defects or problems, well, they're disappointed too. Well, we have disappointments in our business. And so it's not just about the marketplace. That's the first thing I want to say. It's also about the team. But in addition to that, this Texas concept is almost kind of a metaphor because there are other places that don't get as much PR that are very, very positive, that are very good markets around the country that are almost places. Now there's my dog Coco coming up here with her toy. As soon as she hears me talking, she strolls up and thinks it's time to play. Because she must think there's someone else here in the room with me. No, there's not so much. If you hear the dog, that's her in the background anyway, you know, so this is kind of a metaphor really for just generally business friendly areas throughout the country. And so it applies not only to Texas, but since the article is about Texas, I will talk to you specifically about some amazing, amazing things that they pointed out in this article. And that is migration. As real estate investors, we always want to think about something called the path of progress. Now, it's debatable the concept of progress, whether that means people moving into places is really progress, okay? Because it doesn't always mean that necessarily, but in this context it does. We want to look at where people are leaving the places with a bleak future. And the poster child for this is the state of Michigan, of course, and specifically the metro area of Detroit. And we want to look at where people are moving to. Okay, so what's losing business? What's gaining business? People are voting with their feet and they're not just voting for places like Texas, but they're voting for other very business friendly and real estate investor friendly markets around the US that we recommend. But since the article is about Texas, let's look at some interesting comparisons. Okay, so first of all, my home state, the socialist republic of California. Well, last year, well, not last year, but this is net Population Migration, 2010-2011. People that left California were almost or about 300 people per day, 94,000 people left the state of California. That's the net migration loss. And keep in mind, the amazing thing about that is that includes all the people that are coming to California, especially from south of the border, from Mexico and from other states that are coming to California for the freebies that that state likes to hand out. If you're wanting to be on the dole, California is a pretty good place to be. So when you add all this up, the net population migration in and out is still a loss for California of 94,000 people that year. Yet at the very same time, the net in migration into Texas is positive by 110,000 people or 301 people per day. Now imagine that 301 people perhaps per day moving into a state. What that does to the economy. Now look at Illinois, business unfriendly. Illinois, 53,000 people left Illinois, New York State, including of course, New York City. 96,000 people moving out, yet 301 per day or 110,000 per year moving into Texas. Now here's one clue as to why. Of course, you know, we look at business friendly, we look at tax friendly, but here is a very, very tangible thing that people think about and it is the comparison for housing in terms of what you get. Okay, San Francisco, 200. Here's what $300,000 will buy you in San Francisco. Okay? You're going to be amazed when I tell you this. A 210 square foot apartment. Yes. 210 square feet. Now let's look at another city. Let's look at Brooklyn, New York. You get 492 square feet in an apartment there in San Francisco, that's a one bedroom, one bath. It's really a studio. I mean, 210 square feet, that's 10 by 20. That's like a prison cell, basically. Well, a fairly nice prison cell, but still pretty small. Brooklyn. 492 square feet for $300,000. Arlington, Virginia, you get 604 square feet for $300,000. In Chicago, you get 900 square feet for $300,000. Yet in Texas, you get 3,052 square feet for your $300,000. And I say you can actually do better than that. If you look at Indiana, if you look at different parts of Texas that we recommend, you can even do better than 3,052 square feet for $300,000. So it just makes sense. You can see why people, people are moving there. Okay? And quoting from the article in Time magazine, it says the Texas model, of course, it's not just cheap living that draws people to Texas. It's also jobs. In the past 12 months, Texas has added 274,700 new jobs. That's 12% of all jobs added nationwide and 51,000 more jobs than California added. That's pretty incredible. Now I'll just look down the article and the person being quoted here says, quote, my uninformed friends usually say, but Texas creates low paying jobs. To that I respond, you are right, we create more low paying jobs in Texas than anybody else, fisher says. But we also create far more high paying jobs. In fact, from 2002 to 2011, with 8% of the U.S. population, Texas created nearly one third of the country's highest paying jobs. That, my friends, is a pretty amazing feat. Now that is also true of other what's true of the state of Texas is mainly true in certain cities of Texas. And you know how much I like Houston. But you know, this is also true to a lesser degree of cities like Atlanta, cities like Memphis, of these other low cost, business friendly places around the U.S. it's even true of Indianapolis. Good old, tried and true for us. So there are lots of places that follow this same model and the same trend, even if it's to a slightly lesser degree. So a lot to think about and a lot to check out out there. Now our guest today is Doug Conant who has got some very interesting things to talk about in his book called Touch Points. It's personal development. We're going to talk about touch Points, how to how to connect, engage with people for your business or in your personal life. We're going to talk about leadership and some interesting stuff there. So I'll keep this intro very short and just want to say one more time, make sure to check out our oh by the way, make sure to check out our sales on our remaining closeouts of physical product for Creating Wealth Home Study course and Meet the Masters Home Study Course physical product for about half price of the digital product. But we do have an overall not Black Friday sale but a Cyber Monday sale which is 40% off on all of our digital products@Jason Hartman.com and this starts when you hear this podcast by using the promo code Cyber. But it ends in just a week. So we're starting Cyber Monday a little sooner but ending it sooner as well than most retailers and that is 40% off. So if you've wanted any of our digital products, whether it be Creating Wealth Home Study Course, Meet the Masters Home Study as a digital product or a physical product, you can get some big giant discounts on that. So go to jasonartman.com click on products take advantage of these big savings, 40%. That's, I think, about the biggest it's been don't forget that the promo code for that at checkout is cyber C Y B E R. And you can get some big giant discounts there. So happy Thanksgiving to all. And let's go to our guest, Doug Conant, as we talk about Touchpoints.

It's my pleasure to welcome Doug Conant to the show. He is the author of Touchpoints, and he's got some amazing insights that may seem rather obvious to most people. However, there are always new ways that we can apply them and be more effective in life and leadership. And I think you'll hear a real transformative message here today. Doug, welcome. How are you?

I'm great. Thank you for having me.

Well, the pleasure is all mine. Well, give us a little bit of information about your background and then let's dive into Touchpoints.

Well, my background is really I've come up in the corporate world. Less than two years ago, I retired after over 10 years as as chief executive officer of the Campbell Soup Company. Prior to that, I spent a career in consumer products with General Mills Craft in Nabisco and wrapped up my career with Campbell Soup Company in Camden, New Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia. Along the way, I've been heavily involved in all kinds of corporate activity, but a lot of nonprofit activity. So my focus today is and my focus going forward, quite frankly, is all about helping to improve the quality of leadership in the 21st century, sharing my experiences and trying to encourage people to lean into the notion of being more effective as leaders in everyday life.

And your tenure at campbell soup as CEO started in 2001, correct?

Yes. January 8, 2001 seems like yesterday, but.

It'S actually quite a few years ago. Campbell's is such an iconic brand for well over 100 years, you know, of history. Were there any big challenges when you came aboard? I haven't followed the history of that company too much. But what were some of the things and you probably incorporated them into the Touchpoints book and philosophy, I assume?

Yes. A lot of the thinking that's captured in our book Touchpoints.

Was born out of my experience at Campbell Soup Company. Campbell Soup Company is an iconic company. It's about $10 billion in sales with 20,000 employees, products sold in 120 countries. And we were very committed to having an enduring business proposition with our company. It was over 140 years old, only had 11 CEOs over those 140 years, I was the 11th, and it was a troubled company. We had lost half our market value in one year, which is unheard of by a large food company. And we had a very toxic work environment. As business had fallen apart for a variety of reasons, employees were very disaffected, and I was challenged to come in and rebuild, make sure we had the right strategy, and rebuild the organization top to bottom, which is what we did. As we did that, touch points became an obvious critical part of what I had to do. I had to reconnect people to this notion that as a community, we could do something. You focus on winning in the marketplace, but also creating a winning workplace where they could thrive and prosper. And as a result, over a decade we went, we dramatically improved our marketplace performance. But more importantly, we created a highly engaged culture where every employee felt valued and challenged to do their best work, and they felt as if people of the company had their back. And not. A better feeling when you're working in a tough environment is to feel like you're not going it alone.

Just a little background on Campbell's. How many employees, and I'm curious, was that workforce unionized? Probably? Unionized, I assume, right?

Well, if we have 20,000 employees globally, there were pockets of union activity, but by and large, no, we weren't heavily unionized, and we were focused on. On meeting the needs of our employees to such an extent that they never felt the need to unionize. And by and large, we did that. But we did have some union activity, and we navigated through that typically pretty effectively in my decade there.

And you say that Touchpoints is really, by the way, the subtitle of the book is Creating Powerful Leadership Connections in the Smallest of Moments. And you say that it's a blinding glimpse of the obvious, but maybe not really that obvious, is it?

Well, no. You know, today, most employees, most people in general, feel as if they're getting a sip of water from the fire hydrant of Life. They're having 200 to 400 interactions a day, either via email, Twitter, text messaging, phone calls, people stopping by their office, and the list goes on and on and on. And as a result, they struggle with, well, how do I navigate this crazy life? And that's a good question. And so as I go around the country, this issue seems to be the biggest issue of the day in most corporate cultures, and quite honestly, in the nonprofit and the federal government sector, too, where these people are overwhelmed with all these interactions. And so what we've tried to do with Touch Points is say, don't think of the 400 interactions you have, think of the next interaction you have and how can you be more effective in the moment? They are so effective that you are able to be more efficient with it as well and more helpful to the other person. So we created this notion of touch points and we said there are three things you need to do. You need to listen intently to what's coming at you in the moment. You need to make sure you can understand the context of that decision, and then you need to help the person advance it. So we challenge people, bring out how can I help? Mentality will work. Listen carefully, frame the issue and advance it. Listen, frame, advance, listen, frame, advance. And then when the interaction is over, you say, how did it go? And what we have found is when people just focus on the moment and try and be helpful in an earnest way, they can get traction with their life again and they get traction with their co workers. We have found that if you can just advance three to five more interactions in a significantly more healthy way today than you did yesterday, out of the 200 to 400, you have three to five more interactions managed in a more healthy way. You can change your contribution profile in your place of work or at home.

And that's what we encourage people to do, to take this simple approach and apply it every day in a disciplined way and they can start to lead a much more fulfilling life.

One of the phrases you just mentioned, just even having that phrase occur to oneself is probably a huge step forward. And the phrase is contribution profile. Very interesting.

Well, it's all about, how can I help? If you were to go to my website@conantleadership.com I've profiled, I just picked 10 touch points in my life where somebody said the right thing, the right way at just the right time. And I carry it with me today. In fact, of all the education I've had in college, graduate school, continuing education courses, they've been wonderful and I'm a better person for it. But Quite frankly, those 10 touch points, which when I add it all up and I say all the words together, it's about 40 seconds or it's about six words. A touch point. Those small touch points can help. They actually guide my life. One of those touch points was only four words, how can I help? It occurred to me when I was fired from a job and the outplacement guy, every time he answered the phone, he would say, hello, this is Neil McKenna, how can I help? And since that day, which was GOSH it was 27 years ago. I have gone into every interaction in my mind saying, hello, I'm Doug Conant. How can I help? How can I contribute? And the more I focused on raising my contribution profile, the more I flourished in my work experience. And so I just encourage other people to try to do the same thing.

Well, that's a great question to ask. It's a great context to just come from that point of view of the how can I help? Point of view. Can you give us any examples of, you know, maybe an interaction where someone might do this and increase their contribution profile? And, you know, Doug, when you mentioned that when you were talking about that, it made me think of a few key words in relationships that I have and how literally even a text message to someone saying the right thing at the ostensibly right time makes a whole difference in the relationship or the friendship for years to come. It's incredible.

Yeah, Jason, it's an amazing thing. The best way for people to grasp the concept is that when I'm speaking with an audience, we get to a point very early in the presentation where I just ask them to close their eyes and think about someone who's had a profound influence on them in their life. A teacher, a coach, occasionally a boss. Typically, it isn't a parent, a grandparent, an aunt, an uncle, or a good friend. And I ask them to close their eyes and imagine that that person is sitting there with them now. And then I ask them to think about a moment where that person was totally there for them, where they were listening carefully to what was going on, and they were totally there for them, and they found a way to say just the right thing in just the right way at just the right time. And then I encourage the people in the audience to turn to the person next to them and share that experience with them. And then I encourage the other person to share back. It takes about two minutes. Everyone has a story about, for example, my story about how can I help? And I'm sure you have your story. Everybody has a story. And then I challenge these people. I say, now, you. That is the essence of touch points. And my challenge to you is to try and be that person for the people with whom you live and work. And as people reflect on that, they get it, and they get it in the marrow of their bones because they've lived it. They've had people that have had that kind of profound impact on them in small moments, not big, long lectures. None of us, most of us don't have those kind of experiences. Get great traction in our lives. It's those people that were there for us and said just the right thing, it's just the right time in just the right way. And I just challenge people to be more like that with the people with whom you live and work. And you don't need to go any further than that. They get it. And then the challenge is to bring the discipline to it, to try and behave that way a little more today than you did yesterday. You don't have to get all the way to bright, but you do have to do a little better today than you did yesterday.

Just that constant progress, that movement in the right direction can make such a difference. Do you profile in the book any sample interactions? Like, it would be good to sort of compare the wrong way to do it and the right way to do it type of thing, if you can. I'm probably putting you on the spot. So I apologize. But you know, if you can think of an example, I think it would be helpful for the listeners.

Of the 10 that I have that are sampled in one of my videos at my website@conantleadership.com one of them was a horrible example. I mean, was a negative experience. All touch points are not positive experiences. In one case, I went into work one day. I'd been working for this company for nearly 10 years. And the acting vice president of marketing had me come to his office when I came to work that day, and he said, your job has been eliminated. You need to be out of here by noon. And he couldn't look me in the eye. And.

Here, you know, I had nearly 10 years of my career was over in a snap. And I had to go home to my wife, my two small children, my one very large mortgage, feeling every bit the victim. And in that moment, I was devastated and I was bitter. And that was a negative touch point. That same day, I was sent to an outplacement counselor who I at first said, I'm not going to go see him. I was so angry. But then I called him later in the day because I realized I was really having trouble processing all this. And it was my friend Neil McKenna, a guy who went on to become my friend, who said, Neil McKenna, how can I help? Come right over, I want to hear all about it. Let's get to work on this right away. And I had one of the best experiences of my life. The same day I had one of the worst experiences of my career. Those were two touch points. The first touch point has influenced how I've dealt with people in difficult Situations for the balance of my lifetime where I have said I will never treat anyone as poorly as I felt treated in that moment. And it has guided me in a direction of being more thoughtful still being tough minded on issues, but tender hearted with people. And then the second interaction with Neil McKenna, as I've shared earlier in this conversation, has influenced how I try and bring a how can I help attitude to everything I do. So those are two small interactions that I had with others. One was negative, one was positive. That have had a guiding influence in my life.

Very good. Yeah, very good.

Now just something as a CEO I was always looking for. How can I connect with people in a positive way and reinforce things that they're doing right? Because in corporate cultures, you're pretty much trained to find everything wrong. I can find a busted number in a spreadsheet like, like no one else. But, you know, we need to also celebrate what's going right. So every day when I was CEO of Campbell, virtually every day, I would write 10 to 20 handwritten thank you notes, no more than 50 words, typically, to employees all around the world who had done something right, who had delivered a project on time and on budget, or who had done some extraordinary thing when we had the Japanese tsunami or the tsunami in the Philippines or whatever it was. And so I would send out six days a week, 10 to 20 notes over 10 years. When I retired, we added all the notes up and it turned out I sent over 30,000 notes to employees and we only had 20,000 employees.

Yeah. So you touched them more than once?

I had touched them in a personal way. It was handwritten. I didn't want them thinking some CEO was having somebody email them for them.

And I guess the postscript to that, and people felt like I was connecting with them, I was paying attention, I was reinforcing the behaviors that we were looking to get in the company in terms of performance. They were not gratuitous, but they were saying, look, we're paying attention. We value what you're doing. The more I leaned into that, the more I saw employees lean into their work and feel as if they were valued. So that was a simple way that I created positive touch points to counterbalance all the other stuff we had to do, which was make a lot of tough calls.

So that's a great touch point. I mean, that isn't very scalable, but it is very cumulative, so very powerful. Obviously handwritten notes, etc. But what are some of the touch? I mean, you know, at times, Doug, you've definitely got to Use touchpoints in a mass media format. I mean, CEOs have to do that. Media personalities have to do it. Politicians have to do it. Do you have any advice for mass media touch points? Even if it's someone holding a sales meeting for 10 employees, it doesn't have to be a giant corporate leader or political or celebrity figure, but just a touch point when it's not one on one.

Well, I have some guiding thoughts on that and I guess the most here are a couple of them. First of all, make it personal. If you want people to take that work personally and really lean into the work, they need to believe that they are connecting with you in a more personal way. So in whatever communication you choose to have, whatever format it is, in fact, the more you have to lean into social media formats, the more you have to be ever more thoughtful about how you can make it personal. The second thing is that people can smell a rat a mile away. Don't play games. You have to show up in an authentic way as well as a personal way. And if you want to have credibility over time, people have to believe that what you see is what you get and that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. So you have to show up with great authenticity.

If you make it personal and you show up with great authenticity, those are kind of the, those are the do's to get into the game. I mean, that's the ante. Then you have to show up with confidence. If you really want to have influence with people over time, they have to believe that you know what you're doing. You know, when my wife was in theater years ago and she. If you're in theater, you work nights and weekends when other people aren't working. So I would come home and have to help out with our children and I have to cook dinner. Now, they thought I was a person of good character and, you know, and I was a pretty good father. But they did know that I couldn't cook with a hoot, so they couldn't count on me for dinner. I didn't have a lot of credibility there. So it was a reminder to me that you got it. If you really want to have influence with people and you want to inspire confidence, you have to have two things. You have to have character. You have to show up in a personal and authentic way, but you also have to know what you're doing. And if you don't, you have to acknowledge that. So as a leader, those are the things you need to bring to the party. If you want to start to have impact with people in the moment through touchpoint, you have to show up in a truly authentic way and you have to know what you're doing.

Yeah. Character trust and competence trust, both of those so, so important. Are there any examples that you can think of in the mass media world from leaders in whatever position, you know, media life, political life, corporate life, that have, in a speech, for example, successfully used touch points in a positive way and really connected and inspired their audience?

Well, in my lifetime, we had one particular president who was good at connecting with people.

And there were a group of people that called him the Great Communicator.

Yes, good old Ronnie Ronald Reagan, who.

Could connect with people in a deeply personal way. He had enormous credibility with the everyday man and woman. He. He brought. He brought the conversation down to a level that was approachable by those people. He showed up in an authentic way, and by and large, he led a life where he did what he said he was going to do. And those are simple rules to live by. But that's the cost of doing business today. We have a very jaundiced, jaded perspective of leaders today. And I think the challenge for leaders today is to show up in a truly authentic way.

And Ronald Reagan would be the guy I would go to who touched people in a way that I haven't seen many other political leaders, quite frankly, before or since connect with. To me, he was the gold standard when it came to mass media.

And I couldn't agree more. When I listen to his speeches, I literally sometimes get goosebumps. I mean, he's such an effective communicator. And I'd say that, you know, it's before my time, but Jack Kennedy also was quite inspiring like that. And so you've got both sides of the aisle there just for a little equal time.

Actually, I thought Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy to me was showing up in a more authentic way. Jack, because I grew up then, was incredibly inspiring. And we were going to go to the moon and we were going to do extraordinary things. Bobby Kennedy to me, was touching people in a much more personal and earnest way. In my opinion. He was an amazing communicator. So it's not about political parties. It's about authenticity and doing it in a way that connects with the hearts and minds of people. In our book on touch points, we say you got to do three things. Yeah, I got to connect with the head and the heart. And you've got to use your hands in terms of developing the practices to be more effective over Time. So it's head, heart, and hands. And if you can do that on all three dimensions, you can connect with people in a meaningful way.

Sure, sure. Just one more thing. On the political spectrum, so many people say that Clinton was very effective like that. And I never saw it in Clinton. I just didn't get the. The greatness of Clinton's charisma that some people comment on. Would love your feedback on that. I just never saw it in him.

Like everybody else, you know, I don't piss judge on people. He was clearly highly effective with a lot of people who found his earnest approach to conversation. It resonated with them. And, you know, he clearly did connect with people. I mean, he was elected twice, and he had an approval rating that was expressed extraordinary. So, you know.

It would be hard to argue.

Yeah, well, I know. And, you know, I have friends who have met him who are critical of him and don't like him politically, but say, you know, you meet that guy in person and he's just a likable guy. So obviously something was working there. I guess I kind of missed that one. But, you know, when you dissect these great, great communicators going back to Reagan, any. Any thoughts on how Reagan did it? I mean, I think he appeared to be a common, very relatable person. He used metaphor and visuals. Humor, certainly humor. But humor seems to be a thing that is not available to everybody. Some people have it and some don't when it comes to humor, at least as far as I can see. But humor is a very good technique to open doors and create touch points, isn't it?

Well, I would connect it back to our touchpoint model, and we'll use Reagan as the example. You felt as if Reagan would come into every moment with this I want to be helpful kind of mindset. How can I help? And people felt heard by him.

He would listen intently, and then he would frame issues in a way that makes that people said, okay, you get it. And then he just tried to make things a little better today than he did yesterday. And Ronald Reagan, I would argue, had a wonderful, continuous improvement mindset with a very aspirational model for how the world could be. He was just trying to be helpful every day. And my observation, that was somewhat unmistakable. And people kind of looked at him in general, saying, what you see is what you get. We got just a regular guy who's listening to us, who is showing that he understands the issues that we feel are important, and he's trying to make things a little better today. And he's with us. I found that applying the same listen, frame, advanced mindset and bringing a how can I help? Mentality to the work, Ronald Reagan was incredibly effective. I also saw that, quite frankly, with fdr, and we can go beyond that. You can also find that with Gandhi and Mother Teresa and a variety of other leaders around the world. They all bring a how can I help? Mindset to the work that people grasp. They all are wonderful listeners. They make sure they understand the issue and they just try and advance things in a way that works for them authentically. And so I think it's a simple model. It's not a new model, but it's this notion of how can I help Listen, frame, advance, and then ask yourself, how did it go? And try and do a little better today than you did yesterday. And in today's chaotic times, I think it's easier to go back to things that are elegantly simple and get to the far side of complexity and get to things that are approachable and you can actually bring to life in your everyday life. And that's the power of touchpoint.

Yeah, Very, very important. Most definitely. Very important. You know, if you look at that in the high tech world, certainly Apple has brought simplicity. And I think people are craving that kind of simplicity and that high touch thinking. No question about it. Well, the website is conantleadership.com of course, Doug. The book is available in all the usual places, I'm sure, right?

Yes, absolutely. Amazon, anywhere. You can't miss it. And we also provide information on the.

Website and New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller. Good work. I think it's high time that the marketplace have a book like Touch Points. Anything else you'd like to say in closing?

No, I guess the observation. Yes, there is. I guess my observation is that we can all do better. And if we want to have a better world, we all have to lean into that notion. And we all have to try and do a little better today than we did yesterday in terms of working shoulder to shoulder with the people in our work, community and our lives to make things a little better. If we bring that continuous improvement mindset to the work with this notion of, you know, we can do better, in my opinion, we will.

Fantastic. Well, Doug Conant, thank you so much for joining us today.

All right, Best of luck to you, Jason. Thank you very much.

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