CW 360: Mastering Self Control with Dr. Kelley McGonigal of Stanford University and Author of 'The Willpower Instinct'

Welcome to Creating wealth with Jason Hartman. During this program, Jason is going to tell you some really exciting things that you probably haven't thought of before. And a new slant on investing, fresh new approaches to America's best investment that will enable you to create more wealth and happiness than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. He's been a successful investor for 20 years and currently owns properties in 11 states and South 17 cities. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to financial freedom. You really can do it. And now here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome to the Creating wealth show. This is your host, Jason Hartman. This is episode number 360. 360. And regular listeners, you know what that means. It's a 10th episode. So going to talk a little bit more about life, success, some general principles and not focus as much on the financial, personal finance, investing and real estate stuff today, but more on personal success and enrichment. And to that end, we will have Dr. Kelly McGonigal as our guest who is a TED speaker and you're certainly all familiar with ted. And she talks about some great subjects, one of which is how stress can be good for us and willpower and things like that. And before we go to her, we'll talk a little bit about the abundance mindset and the importance of exercise for the new year and that kind of stuff. But let's dig in here and I've got Steve with me to talk a little bit about some news from our friends at the Federal Reserve. I guess, Steve, Janet Yellen, our new Federal Reserve chair is going to speak today, right?

She is. And there's already talk about more tapering and the markets are reacting accordingly. It's almost as if they were addicted to the tapering.

Right. Right. Now that's kind of strange. Addicted to tapering rather than money printing. And for the novices and the new listeners who may be joining us, maybe we should tell them what tapering is. It means a little bit less money printing, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I misspoke to a degree. You know, addicted. They like to just freak out whenever anybody even says tapering. Oh, okay.

Oh, so you meant the opposite of what you said.

Actually, yeah, I, I misspoke a little bit. But it's true. They go nuts. I mean, if there's gossip out there that a guy who knows a guy who played golf with one of the Fed people recently said tapering the markets tank like 50 points.

Right, right.

And I posted on our internal forum that crackheads don't like it when you threaten to take their crack away.

Right, exactly, exactly. No, this is an addiction, folks. The addiction of easy money rather than sound money is exactly what we've become accustomed to in this country. And it is not good over all. However, that is the way it is and we are here to help you play the game in order to win and to game that system.

That's right. That's right. And what will happen here, I've been kind of following this.

The markets are going to tank a little bit and then one of the Fed people, Kansas City or San Francisco or whoever, or Yellen herself will say, well, hang on everybody, we're committed to easy money policy. And then the markets, oh yeah, that's a fresh batch of crack, they go up again, they get all excited and then they keep talking about this. And the reason this is obviously important to everybody, to the whole world, this whole Fed tapering and this easy money policy that they're saying they're going to back off of. But it's especially important to everybody listening because the bond buying has been centered mostly around mortgage backed securities. That's how this originally started is the Fed was going to buy $85 billion worth of mortgage backed securities. I don't even think there was that much in mortgages issued in a month. But somehow they've dreamed up that amount.

Of security that is just amazing. Like, that's shocking. And they've been doing that for so long. Has it been two years that they've been, you know, I don't know the exact amount of time, but it's been, that's been going on for quite a while. I mean, it has.

And they've been bundling this stuff up, packing it into different offerings to your pension funds and whoever your retirement is with. And eventually something will happen a la 2008 and somebody will realize, somebody will say the emperor has no clothes and that these things are not worth what everybody thought. And we'll have another problem. I don't know if it's three years or seven years or when it is, but that's going to be an issue. And more importantly, because of what this does, it makes interest rates really for mortgages go up. Now, it's complex as to how all that happens, but also it can mean a trigger to inflation. And we've been talking about that on the show forever. Right, Jason? About inflation is coming and we argue that it's already here. But eventually it's going to have to be officially recognized to one degree or another.

Right, right. No question about it. And whether leads to an actual crash and a collapse of the dollar, as it should it would in a normal world. The US is in this very, very fortunate position where it doesn't play in a normal world. I think it's wrong. I think it's ridiculous. Like I've said before, the laws of physics, the laws of gravity, they don't really apply. Math isn't that important when you have the special circumstances that the US enjoys. And so we can basically keep machine going and just export.

These junk financial instruments around the planet. And basically, just like Obama's State of the Union address last night, I mean, what a joke. He said, of course, let's raise the minimum wage. All that does is create inflation and it makes all the people that they pretend to help poor because it causes inflation. The inflationary spiral, it comes right up from the bottom and it makes all elite class or the investor class, and I don't mean super elite, of course it makes them richer because they enjoy assets that love inflation. And all the listeners to our show and myself and, and you, Steve, we enjoy assets that benefit from inflation, whether they be long term fixed rate debt that is destroyed by inflation, or commodities, the ingredients of a house or an apartment building that we might own. Those commodities go up in value and are indexed and protected and are hedged against inflation. So all the people that Obama says he's helping, he's really impoverishing them, okay?

And they have no idea.

They have no idea. They are so, so stupid. They just keep voting and they say, oh yeah, raise the minimum wage and I'll be richer. Yeah, you will, for about six or eight months. And then you will be bitten in the rear end when inflation starts to just disappear.

Evil corporations give me more of that money they're hoarding.

And then it got even worse. He said that anybody who gets a government contract, a federal government contract, will now be required to pay, I think $10.10 an hour as their minimum wage. In other words, their minimum wage will be higher than the federally mandated minimum wage. So he's. On one hand, you reach into the private sector and say, this is the minimum wage, right? And you suddenly make a bunch of young people unemployed because that's who minimum wage laws hurt the most, is younger people. So instead of those younger people working, they're now out causing trouble, as young people tend to do. It's just part of asserting one's independence as a young Person, you know, making, making some trouble and you know, if they're not working, idle time, devil's workshop, as the old saying goes. And so young people can't get a job because it's not just about folks, the minimum wage. Remember, when minimum wage goes up, it trickles up through the system. So the worker now that was getting maybe 50% above minimum wage right now, they're going to insist on a raise too, because the minimum went up. So that minimum is just sort of like a reference point. And some people getting minimum will get a raise, of course. But not only did he do the normal thing that the government does set the minimum wage, right? But then he said, if you want a federal government contract for your business, you've got to pay above the federal minimum wage in order to get a contract. And, you know, it reminds me of a friend of mine who owns an engineering firm and he's had some government contracts over the years and he was telling me how ridiculous it is to try and get a government contract the first three pages. And he was probably being somewhat sarcastic about this. I don't know the reality of it. I'm just telling you what he was telling me in a frustrating fashion. It's like the first three pages of the application to get a government contract for work, to design or, or build something for the darn government is all about what race is, your staff, you know, what, what ethnicity of people do you employ? It's not who can do the job. It's all just political correctness. I mean, this is just this kind of stuff. It always hurts the people they pretend to help and helps the people they pretend to be against. All those rich people flying around in their private jets and the, the middle and upper middle class. Well, really the upper middle class, not the midd.

And it exports jobs. I mean, how many of these companies will just say, okay, we need to sub out a portion of this work to India because we can't afford to have to meet this minimum wage, so we'll go where we can. It's idiotic. And I don't know if you remember during the presidential campaign, Jason, there was a bit of an Obama sound bite going around that of course the Republicans were working really hard, where Obama was blaming jobs on things like technology, where banks were using ATM machines and using those to replace employees. And they were of course, going on and about both sides blowing it out of proportion. But that's a classic example. Business owners, when they go, okay, workers cost me this much money, can I have a machine? Do this, or can I have somebody in India do this?

Listen, what people have to realize is that every single day, every entrepreneur asks themselves one question over and over, and it is, how can I cut expenses? Or how can I increase revenue? And if revenue is increasing, they're still going to try and cut expenses. That's how an entrepreneur must think. They are forced to think that way. And if they can get a machine or a worker in India or the Philippines to do it for less, by golly, they're gonna do it. And it's interesting because one of my friends who was actually on the show before, who did a documentary about the Canadian healthcare system, he's Canadian, his name's Logan. And he was on the Creating wealth show or maybe the holistic survival show that I do. I can't remember which one, but, but, but he was on a while ago. And on his Facebook, he posted today about how the US has the highest corporate tax rates. And I posted a comment there that says, yeah, this is a great incentive to keep all this money overseas rather than repatriating this money. If we lowered the corporate taxes, all this money would flow back into the United States. And guess what would come with it? Jobs, Jobs, jobs and more tax revenue. Of course, it's totally stupid.

And that's. You say that the entrepreneur is always asking how they can cut expenses and increase revenue. And conversely, the government's always going, how can we increase expenses and increase revenue?

How can we increase expenses and increase the burden on people who create value in the economy? That's really what the government does every day.

Yeah, it's dominated by a scarcity mindset. This is a zero sum game, and it's totally a different ideology. And I just don't understand the brain chemistry. I can't wrap myself around it.

Well, you know, we're going to talk about abundance here in a few minutes and how we can use that abundance mindset. And, you know, I'm glad you brought up and mentioned the concept of the zero sum game, which we'll talk about there as well. But that's great. Yeah. Good, good. Okay. So the Fed. Anything more on that?

Well, I was just going to say that this is going to affect interest rates. Many of us and clients ask me all the time. And I think you agree, Jason, that interest rates will be choppy this year, but they will end higher than where they started. And that, of course, means compressed cash flows and probably increased prices, because as rates climb, banks are going to have more incentive to ease mortgage qualification requirements and there will be More money to buy houses with which will raise prices. So the optimal time, I've said this multiple times on the podcast, to buy real estate was in 2009, but there was practically not any financing. And people thought you were crazy if you were doing it. But now you made out like a bandit. And a couple years ago, I remember you could buy these newer properties in places like Indianapolis and Memphis. You could have them fully rehabbed for the high 80s, and they'd rent for well over $1,000 a month. And now you're having to pay six figures for that stuff. And so if you're kind of sitting around waiting for the perfect deal, it's not going to get better. Right. Those cash flow, the returns are going to be compressed as interest rates climb and as prices climb, that's what inevitably happens. And the more the Fed keeps talking about this, the more banks are going to have incentive to raise those rates up.

Yeah, well, I think part of human psychology is the perfect deal is always the deal in the rear view mirror, whether it be a real estate deal or someone that you wanted to meet, you know, maybe that. That pretty girl that you didn't talk to, that you didn't approach. I know. I felt that way.

Many times. And then on Facebook, she changes her relationship status and you're like, oh, another one got away. Perfect deal.

Yeah, well, Jason, you go after it. I mean, I. I stalked Taylor Swift with you for about 45 minutes in Nashville once.

You know, I hate to admit that we did do that. And I think the security guard almost kicked me out of her building.

He would not give you. Everybody. We go into this high rise.

Oh, come on. Are you gonna tell this story?

Yeah, it's happening. This is too late. You can't have. Yeah. And Jason goes up to the security guard and said, hey, hey. Did Taylor Swift used to live here?

No, not used to live here. I thought she still lived there.

Well, something. In any case, the guy had zero interest in disclosing any information to you. He's do a good comment on the residence.

But then when we went to lunch or dinner, I can't remember, at the restaurant across the street, that server, that waitress, was really super great and knowledgeable, and she says, oh, yeah, Taylor's in here all the time. And I just. I just waited on her father last night. And, you know. You know, Nashville's funny because it's. It's like a town where it's like Hollywood without putting on airs. You know, it's a sort of a casual version of Hollywood. Very Limited paparazzi, very limited security and making a big deal. These country music stars, they're just all around.

Yeah, well, didn't she say too that Taylor Swift had since moved out of that building, but one of the stars of the show Nashville, that's on abc, had since moved in and was living there while they were filming. And so you and I went and went to the Bluebird Cafe where all the up and coming stars play and had the whole experience.

Right, right, right. Yeah, I think you already got me on this stalking story. I think you told this story after that trip to Nashville we took. But anyway, busted.

You're a stalker. We have some properties to talk about if you want to change off your legal problems.

Okay, sounds good.

These are a couple of really good properties, everybody, that I expect to be most impacted return wise by rising interest rates.

Do you want to talk about the Indianapolis property first? That beautiful looking gray and white house, Cape Cod stuff.

Yeah, let's talk about that one. And this is built in 1993. These are, you know, these are the newer homes out in the suburbs that your first time home buyers and stuff are. They're going to be wanting to buy these kinds of homes. And this is, you know, it's a 1900 square foot house and it's a little on the higher end of what we do. Yet the return is still there. That's why I love it, because you can get a bunch of that Fannie Mae money wrapped up into a property with positive cash flow. It's fantastic. And this is out on the east side of Indianapolis in an area called Cumberland. And if you want information, contact your investment counselor because you can take a drive on Google Street View. It's a beautiful neighborhood, big lots, open area, just a nice neighborhood. And it's in what's called Indianapolis or it's in township schools, which those are the good schools. You don't want to be in the core where it's called ips. Indianapolis Public Schools. I'm getting into too much information here, but this is a great one. And it's the purchase price it is 149,9. And the gross projected rent is 1,400amonth. And we're getting an 8% cash on cash projected return on this thing with a 40% total projected return.

Wow, 40% annually as your, your projected ROI. So the famous thing, you know, you all know what I'm going to say. You're probably regular listeners, probably get so sick of me repeating myself. But even if it only works out half as well, Yep. You get 20% annually, right?

That's exactly right.

So if those projections are double what they should be at only 50% of what's projected, you're getting 20% annually. Where are you going to beat that? I mean, you know, and here you've got conservative assumptions with vacancy rate included. By the way, the vacancy on that is not 8%. It says 6%. That needs to be changed to 8%. Oh yeah, which, which will only make a slight difference. It'll probably drop the return by one point, maybe two, but hardly any difference. But yeah, that's, that's great. That's great.

It's a good looking house and it's. The rent on it is 1400. If you're somebody who's maybe early on in your portfolio and you're really trying to emphasize stable properties, this is one of those, because this will attract a great family that's going to be able to pay rent. You know, obviously there's always vacancy and you could get a deadbeat as you could in any property. But it's not very likely in a property like this, in a neighborhood like this.

Right, right. Steve, how far is this from downtown or whatever is the closest major employment center? I mean, you lived in Indianapolis. So I want to ask you that question and I want to bring up, and I want to talk for a moment about the subject of the Google driverless car or other driverless cars, not just Google working on this. But I have an interesting thought for you, but what's the answer to that question?

First, this is probably about 30 minutes from downtown, due east. So you jump on I70 and cross over the 465 belt that goes in a circle around Indianapolis. And then you're probably five, ten more minutes beyond that that this property is located.

Right, right. Okay. So I was talking to Drew, who I was teasing at our Meet the Masters event a couple of weeks ago. After the event, a couple days after the event, I had lunch with him and talking about, and he was on the show before. He talked about how he was renting his place in Laguna beach, this was maybe a hundred episodes ago. And how he was buying rental properties in Indianapolis and in Memphis a lot. Now, you know, of course we have many other areas. I think he may have purchased something in Atlanta too, I can't remember. Or maybe one of our Texas markets. But I know Indianapolis and Memphis have been big markets for him and he's got several properties now, yet he's a renter. And you know, he was talking about how great it is to rent a great place in California at the same time that you're buying up rentals. He has since gotten married and purchased a home that has become a major remodel job. And so he was kind of complaining about that. But, you know, we were talking about cars and he was saying that he wants to buy a Tesla. And I was trying to talk him out of it because, first of all, I have given up my addiction to overpriced, expensive cars. I used to buy every expensive car in the book, and I think, think they're largely a waste of money. But when we talk about abundance, I'm going to talk about enjoying a few treats in life. Okay, well, saving money and creating capital formation. But one of the things we got to talking about is, you know, I said to him, I said, what I really want is I want a driverless car. I can't wait till those come out. And we talked about, you know, Google working on driverless cars and other companies working on driverless cars. And Drew said something very interesting and intelligent. And, you know, I hadn't thought of it exactly this way. I thought of it another way that I'll tell you in a moment. But he said, jason, think of what this whole driverless car thing means when it comes to real estate investments and the whole dynamic in the real estate world. It means that you living in Arizona, where it's inexpensive to live, and formerly living in Orange county, you know, Irvine, Newport beach, where it's very expensive to live, you could get in your driverless car and you could take a nap for five and a half hours while the car took you to California to do a seminar or whatever.

Kind of amazing.

Yeah, pretty amazing. And, or, you know, or you could work, you could have high speed Internet access and just have your laptop and a desk and you know, you could just hang out, make phone calls and work and, and drive at the same time. And it reminded me of something I heard. Paul Zane Pilzer, who is a fantastic author and thinker.

I like his stuff.

I like, you know him. Okay, good. I'd really like to get him on the show. And we've, we've interviewed so many famous thought leaders on the show before, but I have not had Paul Zane Pilsner on the show yet. And, and one of the things he, he talked about a long time ago is the concept of, sort of similar to Elon Musk and his. What do they call it? The hyperloop, where it's a animal, a vacuum tube, an airless tube, a frictionless train, or Vehicle of some sort. Kind of like a bullet in the hyperloop example that Elon Musk came up with, that is levitated with electromagnets. And it speeds through this vacuum tube, so it's got virtually zero friction. It has no wheels and it has no air. So it speeds through this thing at 600 miles an hour. And it can take you from Phoenix to LA and you know, what, 45 minutes, I don't know, whatever the number is. So that changes the dynamic of real estate and what I think this means. Now combine this with the fact, and this is my prediction, that oil and gas prices will continue to decline. Okay. Especially if the stupid government gets out of the way and lets us build things like the Keystone Pipeline and, and do more exploration. I mean, the tables have totally turned. The US is in such a good position with the advent of fracking. And so when you have a driverless car and you have declining energy or oil prices, which is deflationary, I'll admit that. Okay. But other things are very much inflationary, what does that mean? Does that change the game for where you work and the concept of downtown? And is it necessary to live in an expensive place like Newport beach versus Phoenix, which is a gorgeous place eight months of the year, except for the summer heat. I mean, I'd rather live here eight months of the year, excluding the four hot months of summer. That really does change the game to where you can spend time and visit these expensive places, but you don't have to live there. So it's a thought.

Yeah, yeah. It's like getting on the train, a nice train that has WI fi and you can just go, but you're going door to door and you're by yourself in a much more comfortable atmosphere.

Yeah, it's really amazing. I really look forward to these driverless cars. And combine that with the concept of a company like Uber, who could integrate very well with those driverless cars and wow, what a recipe for incredible convenience, value creation and, and a bit of a change in the dynamic of things. So I'm excited about that. I had James Kunstler on the Holistic Survival show recently, and, you know, he's one of these Malthusian guys that thinks the. The world is going to end, blah, blah, blah. I get, I have this, like, morbid interest in those people. However, I. I think they're pretty much wrong. Okay. You know, they'd be right if it was only about math. But I had him on the show and he got kind of mad at me, accused me of interrupting him too much. But you know, he didn't really want to answer my questions. And, and you can listen to that holisticsurvival.com or on iTunes and I'm pretty sure that show has been been posted. And the fact is oil prices are declining. It's going to get as long as the government gets out of the way, it's going to get a lot cheaper to use a good old gasoline engine. And the end.

Didn't he take credit for lower gas prices on multiple occasions?

James Kunstler no, Obama. Oh Obama. He's doing everything he can to prevent it. But sometimes the market forces outdo the president.

They do. And then he knows when to step up and to take credit.

That's right. That's right. But, but yeah, a lot of, lot of good things and interesting dynamics in the future here. Hey, before we get to our guest, well, you had another property but I clicked on the link you sent me, Steve, and it looks like it's sold already.

I can see why. So we will not talk about that. It probably just happened while we're talking here.

Hey, there are some urgency. Buyers move quickly.

Some of these, they literally don't know what they're missing.

Yeah, the good deals are flying off the shelf. So let's talk a little bit about abundance and exercise and then let's get to our guest who's going to talk about stress in a good way and willpower and how we can use these things to be more successful in our lives in 2014 and beyond. So the first topic I want to touch on is abundance. The concept of two basic views of the world, Steve, and one being the mindset of scarcity where you like the Malthusian ethic of limited resources. Resources are running out, resources are getting more expensive. I've got to hoard all I can and hold on to things because we have scarcity in the world. And the opposite view of that is the view of abundance. And one of the quotes I really like about it is what the late great Zig Ziglar said. He said you can have everything in life you want if you just help enough other people get what they want. And for the new year, Steve, I'd like to propose to our listeners trying some abundance exercises. And one of these exercises now as a we all go to restaurants and we all are faced with the the concept of tipping. Now I like to think of myself is a person who tips based on merit. You know, I don't just tip 20% or 15% because you that's the standard amount. I like to tip the right amount based on how good the service was. And recently I went to breakfast here in Phoenix and I was by myself. It was just the dog and I. It was after a workout, and I went to this cool little cafe and the. The waitress, or the server, I guess is the more politically correct modern term.

Oh, come on.

Yeah, I know. Here we go. She was excellent. I mean, her attitude was so good. She was just wonderful. I mean, it was just a fantastic experience. So, you know, I get the bill. It's about $10 and change. I tipped $10. I gave her a hundred percent tip. And sometimes if the service is terrible, I'll leave 10%. Okay? I'm not afraid to say it. I just think you should tip on merit. I think pretty much everything in life should be based on merit. But as an abundance experiment, I want listeners to think from an abundant perspective and set up their mind, their psychology of, you know, the whole way they think as an abundant mindset. And in doing this, I want you to find it's kind of like they say, Ken Blanchard, who was on the show, or he was on the speaking of wealth show. You know, he's the famous one minute manager. And you know, he talks about catch your employees doing something good. And a lot of parenting advice is instead of scolding your kids all the time, instead of pointing out what they're doing wrong, you know, catch your kids doing something good and praise them. Right? And, and I would certainly say, having had dogs all my life, that is true of dogs, you know, and how you train them and, and teach them to behave right, Catch them doing something good and praise them. And I want you to, I want you to leave a big, huge tip somewhere, okay? Now I think it should be based on merit, but the next time you're in a restaurant, listeners and Steve, maybe you want to try it too. Hopefully I will. I want you to leave a big fat, ridiculous tip. I don't want you to do it if the person is not good. Just based on merit, like a tip that's maybe 50 or 100%. If the check is 30 bucks, leave a $30 tip. Imagine that. And reward good behavior, reward good service. And also set up your own mind to know that the world is an abundant place and there's more. And the same is true of donating to charity. Whether it be from scripture, they would say tithe 10%, right? Whether it be from the richest man in Babylon, which was the concept of living on 70% of your income and then tithing or giving away 10% of your income, saving 10% and investing 10%, which I think is a pretty good formula. Now if you make a lot of money, you can do a lot better than that. But it, it is important to give because when one gives, of course you're helping the needy or the person receiving, no question. But you're also helping yourself because you are telling your, your subconscious mind that, look, there are enough resources out there. The world is an abundant place. There is more. I will earn more, more. There is no problem giving this away without any strings attached, because the world is abundant. What do you think?

I think it definitely is abundant. And the more that you, you have that mentality and I like what you're saying, you know, you're, you're enjoying a little bit, but you're saving and you're investing, so you're being responsible. There was a movie that went around about six or seven years ago called the Secret. You remember that?

Oh, of course, the Secret. Now I thought, I kind of thought when you said that you were going to mention the movie Page Forward, which is another great one, that was more of a real movie. The Secret was more of a, I don't know, a documentary.

Who knows what it was.

There were some good points to it, but literally it created masses of people that thought they could just sit there and think positively and things would happen for them.

Yeah. Good luck. Good luck.

I know. And so of course you tell me that, hey, Steve, sit around and wish for something and the universe will just bring it to you wrapped in a bow like, like on an Amazon drone or something.

You know what the thing is, the connotation of wishing and dreaming is that you don't have it. That's what it says to me is wishing and dreaming. It means you don't have it. It's something that is out there and you can't get it. You just wish it would come to you. So, you know, what do they say? Scripturally, faith without works is dead. Right? You gotta do something. It's important to think about it. Like the Secret says, I agree with that. But it's only half the equation.

It's only half the equation. And I think too that the abundance mentality, I really believe that you can't become or you can't get what you despise or what you're jealous of. So when you look at other people who have abundance or who have wealth, if you find yourself experiencing feelings of jealousy, of regret or dis, disdain or whatever it is, I think that your subconscious mind is going to Throw up roadblocks to your ability to become that. You need to be optimistic and happy for other people that have abundance and conduct your life in a way accordingly. But be responsible. Don't drink the secret Kool Aid, you know, save, enjoy a little bit, give. And I really have found that when you live your life with that attitude, it is pretty amazing what things happen for you and how things come about. But when you're constantly holding everything tight, fisted, worried that everything's gonna get taken away from you all the time, then that's the reality that you live in, right?

That's the Ebenezer Scrooge mentality. And that life doesn't look any. Like any fun to me. So. Yeah, I totally agree. Now, one of the other parts of this is like you were saying, treating yourself to something. There. There was this lady, she'd passed away, and I. I gave the eulogy at her funeral, actually. And, you know, she was kind of a mentor to me a long time ago when I work at ReMax. Her name was Anne Tierney. And she used to say, you know, she was really into fashion. She was an old, you know, an older lady and. And she used to say, you know, Jason, every time I earn a commission from selling real estate, I treat myself to something and I set it up so that my subconscious mind, almost like a Pavlovian dog. Now, she didn't say that, but I'm saying that wants to seek the reward. So, you know, if you're in business or if you're in sales, when you close a deal, go out to dinner. I mean, don't be crazy. You know, don't be an idiot and be foolish. Just be. Treat yourself to something. You know, if you, if you want a gadget or a piece of clothing and it's. And it's a small percentage of what you just earned. Heck, buy it, enjoy it.

Oh, I totally agree. I totally. Because what if you had the mentality, Jason, that every time I get a commission, for example, I need to just put it away and hide it from everybody. It just creates that negative cloud over your life. And I don't think that success will. Will flow to you because the successful people are positive, they are abundant, and they want to associate with like people. So you have to be like them. And I. I've done that forever. Sometimes I'm not great at it. But if I earn a commission or I do a flip or something in the winter, I'll get a gadget or something that I want. In the summer, I go hit a bucket of Golf balls at the driving range. And it's just because I know, hey, I closed it. And you do deserve this. You get to go out, you get to have fun, relax. And it does just what your mentor is talking about. It's that Pavlovian response. And, hey, I want more of that. Right?

You are tricking your subconscious mind to get the reward. So for an investor, let's talk about what it might be. Maybe you closed your first investment property, or you closed your 10th one, or you closed your 50th one, or you closed your 80th property, whatever it is, right? And you look at your portfolio and, wow, you're really accumulating something. I mean, this is fantastic. Congratulations. Don't forget to celebrate. Make a little ceremony out of it. Grab a friend, grab your significant other, whatever, and go do something to celebrate. Give your. Make some rites of passage, make it a ceremony. Have a little bit of a ceremony about it right now. The balance to this thing, though, is, you know, and this might be a property that, okay, I just got it rented. It's time to celebrate. I know the way my mother is about that. She's like, oh, I got that house rented. You know, it's like always a happy moment for her. I don't know if she does this exact thing we're talking about, but it's definitely something she thinks about, like, wow, this is great news. Let's go on to the next thing. But let's take a moment to acknowledge it and celebrate. But the balance to this is the people who are the spendthrifts who blow all their money. Those people are doing something terrible, okay? The people that they go to Vegas, they gamble it away. They get silly, they purchase way too much. They are in consumer debt. And it reminds me of a song lyric from one the most talented band of all time. And Steve, you know who this is, right?

Led Zeppelin.

Yeah. No, it's not Led Zeppelin, but they're pretty good actually, too.

It is Rush. And in one of their songs, the lyric is, some will sell their dreams for small desires or lose the race to rats or get caught in ticking traps and start to dream of somewhere to relax their restless plight and don't sell your dreams for small desires. This is what most people are doing, okay? And that's not what this concept of celebrating and rewarding oneself is about. It's not about being silly. It's not about being a spendthrift. It's about a small, rational set of rewards along your journey to financial success. That's.

I agree I agree. I can share something if you don't mind. Of mine posted this quote, allegedly from the Dalai Lama, but it talks about you have to enjoy your life and, you know, what's the point of going through all this garbage? You have to, if you're not going to enjoy it a little bit. Right, but that wasn't the Dalai Lama quote. This is.

That doesn't sound like the Dalai Lama.

Yeah, exactly. But he said that he was asked about what surprised him most about humanity. And he answered, man, because he sacrifices his health in order to make money, then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health, then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present. The result being that he does not live in the present or the future. He lives as if he is never going to die, and then he dies having never really lived.

Wow. Yeah, that's a sad story. It really is. It really is. And you know, Steve, that's one of the things we're here to do. We're here to try and help people acquire assets that create wealth for them when they're not having to show up to a job and be a hundred percent attentive. You know, at the Meet the Masters event, we passed out these, these little quickie questionnaires at the beginning of the event, and it said, you know, what do you want to get out of this weekend? What do you want to get out of it? So we, so we know. And you know, I found that the group was, was relatively easy to please. The vast majority of people in that room, even people who are high income earners with very prestigious companies that we've all heard of and are very successful, they want to get out of their corporate job. They don't want to be forced to work every day. They want to be financially independent.

That was an amazing trend, Jason, because many of these people had jobs that I think most of the world would really covet. Probably great benefits and a high salary and, you know, a prestigious title at a great company. And they all want out as quickly as they possibly can.

They really do. They really do. You know, and it doesn't mean you're gonna stop working and, and sit around and do nothing. You know, you want to be engaged and active and engaged in life, but, but you can work for that same great company as a contractor. After you quit, they'll hire you back as a contractor. I know that one of our clients said, yeah, he quit his job. He was an engineer. God, we got so many engineer clients.

We attract the nerds. I don't know if you have anything to do with that, Jason.

Those nerds are smart, and I think maybe they respect our smart approach to investing. Hopefully.

I think that's what's going on.

Yeah, that may be what's going on. But anyway, he left his job as an engineer. He. He designed drone aircraft. And he left his job and then got hired back by his old employer, working only 20 hours a week, making about the same amount of money. And then. And then he had a bunch of time to do his real estate investing and build his portfolio, and he was buying properties all over the country and. What a great story. What a great story.

That's pretty weird. That makes two drone designers that we have. I have a client that does that.

Oh, a lot of people are designing drones for better or worse.

All I can say is I hope the civilians get drones, too, so they can keep tabs on the government. That's all.

I did read yesterday on Newser that law enforcement used a drone for the first time, and the evidence that the drone collected was used to convict this farmer in North Dakota of something.

If you ask me, that's all sketchy and questionable. I don't want to give up our civil rights, but. But I like law and order. At the same time, there's a balance.

How long do you think it'll be before these little EMP rifles are sold on the black market so you can just shoot them up at drones and knock them out?

I have a feeling. I have a feeling there's going to be countermeasures out there.

And how long do you think it is before we hear from the nsa? Regarding my last comment.

Yeah, the NSA will be knocking on our doors.

I think there's a drone over my house right now.

There may be. There may be. Okay, look, we're rambling here, but before we get to our guests, there's one more subject I want to cover, and that's the subject of exercise. Now, exercise really is part of the abundance mentality. Why is it part of the abundance mentality? Because Wayne Dyer. Who I. I'd love to have Wayne Dyer on the show. I'm a big fan. You know, he's a little airy fairy, but he still has some great stuff. I've listened to a lot of his stuff, and one of the. One of his great classics, the first one I was exposed to was a book when I was in college called your erroneous Zones. No, that's not sexual. It's erroneous, like error. Okay.

But he says one of his great Quotes is, he says, if you do not take time out for exercise and good health now, you will be forced to take time out later for sickness and infirmity. And I read an article right around the. The new year, I think it was just early January a couple of weeks ago, and it said that exercise basically prevents cures or treats everything, period. And, you know, in reading the article, it is amazingly true. Is it obesity? Exercise helps with that? Is it body aches? And, you know, I get all sorts of funny body aches and pains sitting at my desk, desk and computer all day. We were not designed to sit, okay? We were designed to move. Our bodies were designed to move. Just like my dog, her body is designed to move, not to lay around and sit around. We got to do what the designer planned for our bodies. Move them around, okay? And when I'm not exercising and not working out, oh, my neck is bugging me, my back is bugging me. My, you know, my hamstrings are tight. And if I just get myself to the gym for even 20 minutes, it changes my whole day. It changes my whole outlook. Are you depressed? Are you sad? Are you angry? Exercise treats all of those things with, with, because it releases the chemicals from our internal pharmacy right within our own body. It releases many things, but one of them is called endorphins. We've all probably heard of endorphins by now. You know, 20 years ago, nobody talked about it hardly. But, you know, these endorphins are painkillers, and they give us this feeling of euphoria, really a high, like, you know, the runner's high you've heard about it is a natural high, and they are 50 to 100 times more powerful than morphine. It is amazing the power of these endorphins. And the really, the only way we can get those is to just exercise, move our body around. Even if it's a walk around the block or an intense, you know, an intense workout, either way, you'll get the endorphins flowing. It's just a matter of degree. Exercise. Very, very important. Steve, you wanted to share a story about, you know, how you recently had your baby. And as it was coming up to baby time, and then after baby time, things changed around your house, right? Yeah.

And I don't want to blow everybody's mind. Just to clarify, I did not have a baby. It was my wife that did that.

Sorry. Good clarification.

Yeah. You just never know what people are going to think. Well, yeah, absolutely. There was a time in my life a couple years ago where my business was very, very stressful and I joined a softball league. And it was pretty interesting how much that did for me because it not only did it exercise my body, but it allowed my mind to disconnect because it was fully focused on that activity. And that's kind of what happened. My wife was due to have a baby right around New Year's. And so you can quickly rationalize living a very sloppy fitness life and you know your eating habits, because we're like, hey, it's Thanksgiving's coming up and then it's Christmas and you know, we're gonna have a baby. And I was eating whatever I wanted. It was just a complete mess. And I was not going to the gym and I was tired all the time. I felt disgusting. I always, you know, it was just not a good feeling. And once the baby came and we turned the corner on the new year, of course I got back on the horse and it was amazing. Within a week, all my clothes fit better. I was, I had so much more energy during the day because of my eating patterns. You know, I was eating six small meals a day and exercising every day. And because the contrast was so quick in such a short period of time, I was able to notice it more than ever before. And you are more productive. I think it ties back to your abundance that you're talking about. Jason, you go, okay, I've only got 24 hours in the day. I don't have time to exercise. That's a scarcity mentality. You make the time. And amazingly, you are so much more efficient. You are so much more happy and you are so much more productive.

I mean, I think in our culture everything nowadays is just over diagnosed. You always hear, I mean, I never heard this when I was a kid, but suddenly this whole malady of ADD or ADHD came about, right? I never heard about it, you know, but. But if the pharmaceutical companies and the, and the medical community can name something and create a new syndrome, heck, there's a new revenue stream, right? We got to treat this. So exercise helps you focus. Do you want more mental clarity? Do you want to be able to focus and be more effective and more efficient at your job? Exercise, do it, do it.

There's a book called the Power of Full Engagement by Jim Lower, and I totally recommend it to everybody, especially if you're one of those busy executives, because he studied high performance athletes and how they were able to perform so well. And they were, all of them, during their day or during the game they were in, had kind of a ritual where they would disengage, where they would forget about what they were doing and they would do something or think about something that they really loved. And that, on a cerebral level, allowed their brain to just kind of recharge. And they came back so much more efficient and so much more effective. And I think you do that when you exercise. You disengage from all the stressful stuff you've got going on. So physically and mentally, you come back so much better and so much more efficient.

Yeah, you know, I would definitely agree with you there. I.

Know how true that is. At the times in my life where I have been feeling sad. It's like impossible to be sad and exercise at the same time. It just wards off sadness. I mean, if, you know, if your business is in a slump, if your relationship's not going well, whatever's going on, just force yourself to exercise. Believe, believe me, you will feel better and you will be able to cope better. I was watching one of these shows. What was it? Oh, the Good Wife. I was watching that last night. You know, you got me into Homeland, and I. I'm always looking for good TV shows to watch because I never watch tv. I only watch them on Amazon or Netflix now. Right, yeah. And. And you know, she was talking to this. She's the lawyer for this client who was accused of murder and didn't do it, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the client goes.

How do you deal with this? You know, and how do you make this go away? And she says, you don't. You just get better at dealing with it. And that's pretty much how life is. The problems are always there. You just get better at them.

It's true.

That's the thing. Well, Steve, this is another very short intro of ours. Let's get to our guest. We'll be back with her in just a moment here. And we will talk about stress. We'll talk about willpower and how you can make these things work for you to make 2014 a great new year.

I'm here with Chailie Ridge, and one of the things, Chaley, that investors are constantly disappointed with is that they're quoted a rate in one place where they look online and they see a rate for a mortgage and then they're switched, and it's kind of a bait and switch. And they find out they have to pay a higher rate. What's going on with that?

I get this question almost every day. They're looking at the difference between owner occupied type rates and non owner occupied type rates. The One is always going to be.

Less than the other investor. Mortgages are just a little bit more expensive, folks. But remember, as an investor, you don't pay your own mortgage, your tenant does. So it's a pretty great thing. Chaylee, where can they find you?

Www.ridgelendinggroup.com Fantastic.

And if you forget that, you can contact your investment counselor@jason hartman.com.

It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Kelly McGonigal to the show. She is a health psychologist at Stanford and the author of the Willpower. What could be a more appropriate topic for the new year? Kelly, welcome. How are you? You?

I'm doing great. How are you?

Well, good. So two, two really important topics actually, willpower, which of course a lot of people in the new year, every year, you know, the gym memberships increase and the health clubs are crowded and the diets are sold and the goals are set. And then by about mid February, you know, it all sorts to start kind of peter out. And you talk about two areas of great interest to me, Will, of course, but also stress and whether it's good or bad. Let's talk about willpower first, if we can, and kind of talk about some of your latest research on the topic.

So the book is based on a class I teach called the Science of Willpower that I started teaching because I got really frustrated by the fact that I would talk to people, undergraduates at Stanford, people in the community who would say things like, I have this really big goal or I know I need to change this thing, but I don't have the willpower to do it. And that really was at odds with what I knew about research on self control and change, which says that willpower, it's not a trait that people lack. It's more like a strength that can be trained. And I decided that it was really important to offer a class specifically about the science of willpower to help empower people to realize that change was possible. And the fact that they were struggling with things like temptation or distraction and motivation, that that was utterly human. And it didn't say something about, you know, what was uniquely wrong or weak about them. And I feel like understanding the science of willpower actually gives us a tremendous amount of self compassion for why change is hard and why we may give in again and again to bad habits while also giving us some really helpful strategies for making changes.

So it sounds like you're saying then that willpower is, it's just like a muscle. When you exert your muscles, they become stronger and more durable. And they develop greater stamina. I mean, is willpower, Is that a good analogy for willpower?

It's a great analogy. It also explains why when we're making a change or moving towards a goal, we sometimes feel willpower exhausted, that we can also fatigue that strength, but that as we challenge ourselves more and more, we develop a stronger willpower reserve.

Okay, so, you know, give us an example. If someone came to you and you were their personal trainer for willpower, what would be the training program? How do we do this? What's step one, two and three, if you will?

Well, the first thing I actually encourage people to do in the class and in the book is rather than try to change something or to control themselves, to think of themselves kind of like willpower. Athletes who need to be well rested and well fueled. There's a real biology to willpower which says that in order to be the best version of ourselves, we actually need to have a brain that is well rested and a body that is well energized. You know, when we're sleep deprived or when our blood sugar is low, the brain and the body shift into the state of being impulsive, being distracted, being stressed out. And so before I even had people try to make big changes in their lives, I asked them to commit to an act of self care, one that will support the energy of their brain and body. Could be prioritizing sleep a little bit more, could be exercise or movement, and not necessarily, you know, a killer workout, but any sort of physical activity actually fuels the energy of the body. Could be something like meditation, which really improves how the brain uses energy and how the body deals with stress. And to do all of that before you get started in, you know, trying to quit smoking or start a diet.

Yeah. Yeah, Fantastic. Okay, so is willpower the same thing as mental touch toughness, same thing as tenacity, or are there some distinctions here that we should make?

I think willpower is a pretty big category, and mental toughness is a strength that supports it. I define willpower as the ability to make choices that reflect your highest goals and values, even when it's difficult and even when some part of you doesn't want to. And so we need some mental toughness to do that, to deal with setbacks, to find the energy to do things that are difficult. And I actually call that I will power. The ability to not give up, the ability to do things, to make progress towards your goals, even when you're tired, to really prioritize what matters instead of only dealing with what feels urgent. But we Also need something called I won't power, which is the ability to actually recognize and then control impulses that move you away from your goals when you're facing a temptation, when you're about to say something that might hurt someone's feelings. To be able to recognize that before you do it and actually hold yourself back. And we also need a different kind of strength that I call I want power. And that's the ability to actually know what your goals and values are. It's a tremendous strength that most people don't invest a lot of time in, you know, to every day think about what matters to me most, not what feels urgent, not what's worrying me and stressing me out, but who do I want to be and what do I want to make my choices on the basis of. And that's also a strength that we can train.

I like those, you know, sort of little phrases you have. I will power, I won't power, I want power. Do you have any more of those? Those are great.

I mean, it's really helpful to think in terms of your challenges like that. We've already talked about self care as being the foundation for self control. And I like that phrase because it actually, it points to a whole number of things that the science of willpower tells us that goes against many people's intuitions. And one of them is the intuition most people have that self criticism is the foundation for self control. And the science suggests that self criticism, guilt and shame actually deplete our willpower even more than sleep deprivation would. Whereas self care or self compassion actually restores our willpower.

You know, on that self care topic, when you were talking about that a few minutes ago, I thought of, of people that are marathon runners and do these crazy long distance, incredible endurance athletic feats. But is that, isn't that an example of incredible willpower at a time when you're beating the heck out of your body? And most people would give up. I know I certainly would. One third of the way through an Ironman, if not much sooner.

Definitely. I think it's actually one of the the reasons why doing something like that is so attractive to many people because you recognize that you are training these three different strengths we need. You know, one of the best predictors of whether or not someone can finish a marathon or any sort of event like that is their ability to tolerate the stress, you know, the physical symptoms of discomfort to override fatigue. And that turns out to be one of the best predictors of all sorts of things like whether you are able to recover from an addiction, and in some ways, actually training ourselves, whether through exercise or other challenges, to actually stick with something despite discomfort or despite anxiety, that's actually training us to meet any challenge with more willpower.

Yeah, amazing. So, okay, so training willpower, that's one area. And I may want to come back and ask you some more questions about that. But just to make sure we cover the topic, let's talk about stress for a moment. Moment. I have heard the concept of eustress, which I believe is EU stress, probably, which is like the good stress, I believe. And then there's obviously bad stress that everybody talks about and knows about. Distinguish the whole stress phenomenon for us, if you would.

Well, so when I talk about stress, I'm mostly talking about reaction of the body, which doesn't distinguish too much between eustress or distress. It's a reaction of the mind and the body that is designed to help you focus on what is important. It gives you energy to take action. And it also tends to motivate us to try to connect with others who might be able to support us or who are important in our community and relationships that matter to us. And we have this physical stress response anytime we recognize that we are up against a challenge. Too often, I think in our society, we think of stress as being a fundamentally bad thing because often the situations that trigger that response are ones we really would rather avoid. You know, maybe we don't want to have a conflict with someone. We don't want to feel pressure at work. We don't want to get bad news. But I've been really fascinated with the idea that you can not necessarily want the situations that trigger stress, but really appreciate the mind body response of stress as something that can help you reach your goals if you have the right mindset about it.

Okay, so in your TED Talk, you talked about that, that people believed. I mean, this is the old psychosomatic medicine concept that still not enough people are aware of. But it sounds like the belief that stress is bad makes it much worse, right?

Yes. This was actually, to me, this was some pretty scary news, because as a health psychologist, I was trained, and stress is bad, Stress makes you sick, stress will kill you. And I spent a lot of time telling people that in my classes and basically making people scared of stress. And then a few years ago, I came across the first study showing that stress only seems to increase the risk of death among people who believe that stress is bad for you, whereas people who experience a lot of stress but don't believe that stress is harmful. Have the lowest rate of mortality of anyone, even compared to people who don't have a lot of stress in their lives. Since that first study came out, there'd been a number of studies by different researchers, different labs, different populations showing the same effect. And it made me really rethink the way that I was talking about stress and motivated me to find a way of reframing stress that would avoid possibly the more toxic effects of stress.

Okay, so reframing it. How do we reframe it? Give us some examples of what we can do to think about it properly in the proper context.

One really exciting way to reframe stress is to think of the physical stress response as being something that gives you access to energy and courage. There's research that's come out of Harvard showing that when people view their own anxiety and stress response, their pounding heart, maybe they're breathing faster, if they view that as their brain and body trying to give them energy, it actually allows them to perform better under pressure. It reduces the felt experience of anxiety, and it even makes the stress response healthier. You can have the exact same stressful experience, the exact same physical symptoms of stress, but when you appreciate that it's your brain and body trying to give you energy, it subtly shifts the physiology of stress towards a state that is actually cardiovascularly very healthy and not likely to increase your risk of illness or cardiovascular disease. So that's an easy reframe. And there are other ways to sort of see the upside of stress response that makes it less of something that we might want to avoid or resist.

You know, that reminds me a little bit of the times in my life, and I've certainly heard stories about other people experiencing this one. When someone wants to do something, and then a person that is important or authoritative in their life will say, you can't do that, and they'll actually overcome all odds to make it happen just to kind of prove the other person wrong or prove to themselves that they can do it. Is any of that in there?

Yes. You know, in some ways, stress will give you access to your own resources, including your strength and your motivation. And so although I don't recommend it as, like, a parenting strategy to tell people they can't do something, when you yourself get that message, Even just understanding, like, okay, this is an opportunity, and it feels bad when someone tells me that, well, this feeling bad is actually giving me access to my motivation and to recognize that that can also be a source of strength.

So it gives you access to your own resources. I really like the way you put that very, very interesting. Well, what else can we learn from stress? And, you know, I guess kind of that. That thing I mentioned of the stress and the challenge of the being told you can't do it is kind of a willpower. Maybe that's where they. One area where they cross over and the two merge together. But do the two interrelate in a lot of ways, the topic of willpower and stress?

Definitely. I mean, so one of the things that seems to be the case is stress can shift us into a state of focusing on the short term rather than the long term. And stress can then make us more likely, say, to give in to temptation or to procrastinate. And in that case, I think actually the solution for the stress and the solution for the willpower challenge is the same, and that is to seek social support and connection. That seems to be the antidote to sort of many of the challenges that make us feel isolated, make us. Us feel sort of unhelpfully stressed out, and that lead us to make bad choices. And there's another way to sort of reframe the stress response is to understand that in many cases, your body will try to motivate you to seek out connection when you're stressed out. And if we give ourselves permission to listen to that signal, maybe stress makes you feel a little bit lonely or stress makes you crave comfort. That's actually your body and brain trying to encourage you to go out and be around people who care about you. And that also seems to be an incredible source of willpower. The feeling of being connected actually encourages us to make better choices that are consistent with our goals and values.

Very interesting. So that makes us. That stress can make us more of a social animal and increased sense of community, right?

Mm, it can. Especially when we listen to it.

Very good. Well, what else do you, you know, I mean, as a health psychologist, what else do you teach students about this topic? It's so interesting that I think a lot of the world of health doesn't deal enough with psychology. It's more about medicine and things that are considered maybe more of a hard science than a soft science of psychology. You may not like that I called psychology a soft science, but I think to a lot of people, they view it that way.

Yeah, it's soft in the sense that it's incredibly complex. I wish we could do lab experiments that allow us to say, we've proven this, and it's all nice and neat. I would say one of the psychological things that really plays a role in willpower has to do with how we think about our future self. And a lot of the choices we make that lead to negative health consequences come from a place of feeling like your future self is a stranger. That we don't feel that motivated to take care of our future self because we're throwing away our pleasure or resources and our time on some old person who's somehow not really us. And a lot of the most interesting psychological interventions now are trying to help people feel connected to and caring toward their future self, to understand that, you know what, when that day comes, it's going to be you. And that experience is going to be just as real and vivid as the experience you're having now. And you really are going to be the recipient of the choices you make today. And so that's something that we spend some time with in the class and in the book, thinking about ways to feel connected to your future self. So you are willing to invest.

I mean, that would. If people were connected to their future self, they'd start eating right, they'd start exercising, and, God, they'd stop smoking. I mean, smoking has just got to be the worst thing anybody can possibly do. There's just no benefit whatsoever. And every. Everything about it is negative. You can rationalize that drinking has some benefits, but smoking, there's just nothing. There's just nothing there.

And one thing that's important to recognize with all of those behaviors is that they're often an attempt to escape from suffering in the present moment. I mean, it's not like people are weak or stupid. In some cases, they're making a rational choice that says the pain right now is so bad or the stress or the craving is so bad that giving in seems like the rational thing to do, because I don't think I can stand this experience I'm having. And one of the other psychological strengths that we spend some time cultivating is trust that you can handle difficult sensations and emotions and experiences. And that's a strength and a trust that needs to be developed over time so that people can actually make choices. To delay the cigarette or to not take that drink.

Yeah, certainly if they couldn't access it if it was completely unavailable in the environment, it's not like they would die. They would somehow find a way to muddle through and things would.

But in that moment, it often feels like it or it feels like dying would be a preference to the suffering or the pain that is present. And I actually want to point out that for people who are dealing with behaviors like addiction or smoking, that often they have more willpower than people who have never struggled with addiction. And we can be very quick to judge because it looks like a weakness, but, man, people who have made any attempts to overcome addiction have tremendous willpower.

Oh, and listen, I completely agree. You know, nicotine has got to be such an incredibly addictive substance because, you know, you look at the warning labels, you go to other countries, and you see the warning labels that are actually photographs, and they're larger than they are America. It's not like these people don't know, you know, I mean, it's got to be just an incredibly powerful chemical to, you know, overcome all of that rational thought. I mean, I'm not judging in the sense that saying these. These people are dumb or unaware they know. And. And it just shows you that it's just an incredibly powerful substance. It's. It's amazing. That actually leads me to maybe, you know, one other little quick topic, Harry. And I know we're limited on time here, but escapism. I have long believed, Kelly, that some degree of escapism is actually okay. In fact, and you may totally disagree with me on this, I believe that Maslow's hierarchy should have even included escapism as a concept. You know, some degree of escapism, as long as it's not destructive. But, you know, and maybe you'll say it's all destructive. I don't know. But, you know, it seems like that's sort of a. You know, and it depends the way we do it. We all have our different ways, but it's kind of a pressure release valve almost. And it. Is it okay, or is it. Is it just a bad thing all around?

I think it's absolutely okay. There's. I guess you could call it wholesome escapism. There are a lot of activities that give us the experience of being completely immersed in an activity. Could be a great narrative TV series that you watch maybe a few episodes of in one sitting. Could be a great book, could be a hobby, could be being outdoors, sports, exercise. There are a lot of activities where what we're actually escaping is things like the not so helpful habits of the mind that may be keeping us worrying, the physical pressures that we experience or work that we left and really want to be able to leave behind. Escapism is only a problem when it starts to take over areas of your life where you really should be spending time on something else. But I think people should give themselves permission to do the things that restore them, and it really is not time wasted.

Okay, so let's Just before you go, let's just define the types of escapism. So certainly being engaged in physical activity would be considered a good escapism. I mean, just the fact that we're moving, you know, it changes our equilibrium, it changes our state. I don't think anyone would argue that that's a good form of escapism. But what about alcohol, for example?

That is probably not helpful. And I think the way that you can probably distinguish between the two is how the episode ends. I mean, alcohol, in theory, having a glass of wine could be a positive way to restore yourself. But the things that are not helpful escapisms are the things where they never really end with satisfaction when they start to look more like an addiction. Is it the case that you can play a video game for 20 minutes and feel great, or do you not stop until you pass out? And I think some activities are more likely than others to create that cycle of, well, it seems like it's good, but I never can actually get enough of it. You know, spending sometimes. Video games, food, drink. These are things where often they will continue to trigger the need to engage with them rather than give us a natural sense of completion. Very few people are going to exercise themselves to death because they just can't stop the wholesome escapism. We tend to feel nicely resolved at the end of it and ready to re engage with some other aspect of our life.

That's a key phrase. I think you said we feel nicely resolved after it. So, yeah, very good. Very good distinction. That's great. Well, Kelly, give out your website if you would tell people where they can find out about you.

You can find me on the web, on Twitter and on Facebook by my name, Kelly McGonigal. Kellymcgonigle.com and the willpower Instinct. The book is available everywhere.

Fantastic. Any closing thoughts that you'd like to leave us?

I would say that the number one thing that I hope people experience from the book and from the class is to understand that the things that we tend to judge ourselves on, that we may believe that we are weak or inadequate because of the struggles we've experienced, that whatever they are, they aren't unique. To understand the common humanity of this stuff, and it may be one thing for you and something else for me, but the way we experience challenges around willpower is fundamentally the same. And it's our ability to kind of accept that that often gives us the strength to change.

Fantastic. Very good points. Dr. Kelly McGonigal, thank you so much for joining us today.

You're welcome.

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