CW 452: Roth IRA's & Global Real Estate Investment Strategies with Darlene

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Welcome to the Creating wealth show. This is your host, Jason Hartman. This is episode number 452. Thank you so much for joining me today. I coerced and I don't say that lightly. My helper today for the intro portion of the show, and that is Darlene. Darlene, are you there?

I am. How you doing, Jason?

Yeah, good. How are you?

I'm well, thanks.

Don't you love it? See what happens, Darlene, you call me up on the phone to discuss some general business things and I recruit you to help me with the podcast intro. I know you were a little reluctant, so thank you.

You're welcome. I'm glad to help.

Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us. And one of the reasons, dear listeners, I really, really wanted to get Darlene on is she has graciously accepted my invitation to speak at our upcoming Meet the Masters event. And I've known Darlene since the summer of this year. I first met her in Tampa, Florida at our Mastermind meeting. And she's just a great lady, does some awesome stuff. How long have you been in the real estate business, Darlene? Or you know, maybe just share a little bit of your backgr, if you would real quick?

Sure. I got into real estate when I was 19 and that was in 1979. So for those of you who are real good at math, you can figure that one out.

I was 19 too. Yeah, that's funny.

I started off in listing and selling real estate and then I got my broker's license and I realized I didn't want to swap people around showing them houses. So I went to a Dave Del Dotto no money down seminar and kind of whet my appetite a little bit for investing in real estate. And it just sort of took off from there.

Dave Del Dotto was one of these old time gurus on the infomercials. And you know, it's funny, Darlene, you say that because number one, the parallels are amazing. I got my real estate license two weeks before my 20th birthday when I was 19 also and first year of college. And Robert Allen was the guru I first heard of on infomercial and you know, kind of got interested in it when I was actually 16 years old. And then, and then I met Dave Del Dotto, your guy that got you into it at his winery up in Napa on a Y E O trip. And boy, that guy drinks a lot of wine. But, but yeah, he was a, he was a big name guru in his day back then. Did he ever get indicted or anything like that? Most gurus do.

Well, yes, actually he did. He did a real nice little stay as the guest of the federal penitentiary for some really tax evasion things. Yeah. But I too got involved with Robert Allen after that and you know, sat under the tutelage of a lot of different gurus and just sort of learned bits and pieces about different strategies and investing. So well rounded.

It's amazing. I didn't know Dave actually spent some time in the big house.

You gotta pay those taxes or not. I obviously have a way of getting around that legally.

Yeah, that's actually a great segue to your topic because you have really one of the most innovative Roth IRA strategies I have ever seen. I don't even want to say one of, I'm going to say the most innovative, you know, at all of the Meet the Masters events over the years we've talked about, you know, self directed IRAs. We've had IRA administrators and custodians at these events. And you know, it's great. It's just the sort of typical kind of generic corporate speech about that. Okay. And that's all fine, but where it really gets good, where it really gets good is when you add some serious creativity to it. And you've done that. And you know, do you want to just whet their appetite a little bit? I know you've got to go because you've got your company Christmas party that you've got to get to, but I talked you into being on with me for just a few minutes. So just share just a tad little bit about that and tell people what they're going to learn at the upcoming Meet the Masters event.

Sure, I'd love to. So what my skill set is is creating strategic alliances and using your self directed investment Tool, whether it be a Roth IRA or 401k with a Roth component. We laughed earlier. I called it fat stacks in your Roth ira. Even if you don't have a lot of money in your Roth right now, you can partner with financial friends to work a deal. MySpace is rehabbing. So we create alliances with different people and do loans in synergistic seconds. And the profits of that investment goes right into your Roth ira. And when you are able to take that disbursement, you're going to take that money out tax free. And so most people think you can only, you know, create an investment. You have to have a bunch of money in your Roth right now. You don't. I've showed people how to Invest with just $1,000. And you might not be putting 20 grand in your Roth all at one fell swoop, but you do enough deals and you partner with enough people, you're gonna, you're gonna start realizing a lot of gain in there and then going off and investing on your own. So that's basically what I teach people to do.

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Now the first thing is Darlene, you know, uses some hip slang words. And I did not know what a fat stack was, so I went to Urban Dictionary and I don't think most of my listeners know what fat stacks are. So I just love that.

Indulge them by reading that definition.

Yeah, I'm totally going to. According to Urban Dictionary, a fat stack stack is a huge wad of money, usually hundreds and fifties, carried around by ballers, drug dealers or rich ass bastards.

And that basically sums it up.

Oh, that's so funny. Gosh, we can tell you've spent some time in Detroit, right?

Hell yeah. Obviously that's where I am right now. I left beautiful Phoenix yesterday and now I'm in cloudy 25 degrees Detroit Metropolitan. So I need to change that.

Yeah, and I know, I know you're planning on moving soon, but, you know, do you care to share your husband's story? Because his story of his Roth IRA is pretty awesome. And I don't know if you want to share that on the air, but it's pretty awesome, I'll say that. You told me what it was. Are you willing to share that?

Sure. As it relates to, well, investing, I.

Mean, you know, he built up quite a huge account over about a five year period, I believe.

Right, right. He actually rolled over. He was in corporate America for a minute and he had a 401k and he rolled that over into Roth and then converted that to a self directed Roth. And I can go into detail about that at the event on how to do that. But he had about 100,000, which is not a huge amount of money to invest in real estate. So we attended a lot of events and learning how to partner with people. But owning real estate in your Roth is kind of a dangerous thing to do. If something went bump in the night and you got sued, it would wipe out that whole Roth. So we decided to partner with a financial friend who would purchase the property and his Roth would fund that deal on a profit participation. And I can go into detail on how to structure that at the event. But when the property sells, that profit, sometimes in the upwards area of 20, $30,000, would all go with the principal into his Roth. And over a five year period of time, you do that several times, you're going to have seven, eight figures in your Roth in no time.

And he's up to about what, $750,000 now?

He's a little bit more than that, actually. We were talking last night when I came home because we're going to be doing a really big deal right now and said, what do we have technically in the Roth physical? We have loans, we do hard money loans as well. So physically in that account right now. So we're ready to partition that off. And I'll explain why you do that at the event as well. You don't want to have some dangerous assets in there or even passive assets because that triggers, you know, the IRS kind of looks at that and goes, you're putting set stacks in there all at one time. We want to peek into your business model. So I'll go through why you don't want to do that and how to change that.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, like I said, everybody, this. You know, since joining this mastermind group where I met Darlene over the summer, I have learned a bunch of really interesting things. And you know, as, you know, listeners, I am really skeptical and really slow to take up these new ideas. And mostly that's been a benefit to me. And I'll give you one example. You know, we have been pitched for quite a while now on doing business in the, the oil sands area, North Dakota. Okay. And one of my competitors ran out and, you know, just jumped into that. And now the price of oil has plummeted. So, you know, that's going to change that market very significantly, you know, up in the, what they call the man camp in North Dakota, because no woman would be nutty enough to live up there. But, but anyway, you Know that that economy is probably going to change pretty significantly. So I'm really slow whenever I hear these things. I'm like super skeptical. I talk to a lot of people about them. I check them out. Of course, I'm not perfect either, but I am slow and skeptical, and I get a lot of criticism for being slow and not necessarily super creative. But I love this idea that you're an expert on Darlene, so I can't wait to have you present that. And just one more thing before you go. I know you've got to run, but any thoughts on our mastermind meeting? Any big takeaways you wanted to share with listeners or, you know, whatever before you run away?

Yeah, definitely. I think one of the big ahas is this industry is changing dramatically. Gone are the days of the no money down, you know, flipping because there's more competition. Although you can do it no money down by using partners, strategic alliances. I think that the, it's now a business where it used to be passive thing, do a few deals. But if you're not on the forefront and you're not lining yourself up with people and getting ideas from other people and using their talents, leveraging their talents, you're really going to be behind the eight ball. You really need to network with folks who are in the industry who are smarter than you. I always want to be the dumbest one in the room. That's just the way it is. And with the group that we are in, it is amazing that the different. If you, if you took the talent of a few of those people, you could run a small country.

Oh, yeah, you could run a better country. That's for sure.

You could run a big country in a better way.

Right?

Just, just with the talent. I'm always, always amazed and I always walk away with, you know, more than I came with. So good meeting.

Yeah, me too. Me too. That's the, the value of alignment and the value of masterminding really cannot be underestimated. So. So that's good, good stuff. And, and you know, just to your comment before, we're not talking about what our listeners need to be concerned with is that, you know, it's becoming a business. But the reason I say that is because it's becoming more of a mature industry. You know, our investors are mostly passive investors that are doing this on the side. But what Darlene is referring to is if you want to be in the business of flipping houses and things like that, that business has become a much more mature industry and a much more sophisticated industry. The late Night. Infomercial deals are not, you know, that ain't what it used to be, I'll just say that much. Right, right.

That's exactly right. There's a lot of competition out there. And just being. Listening to podcasts like yours really gives that edge to a passive investor and having them align with other people who are doing it as well, I can't stress that enough. Being in the presence of people, we think, well, we can't hang out with somebody who's investing because they're my competition. That is not true. There is a big piece of pie out there, and we all represent different markets and there are sleeper markets. I was sharing that with you over the weekend. Detroit Metro, there's a ton of money being put into the infrastructure of Detroit now that they've gotten most of the corrupt, you know, politicians out of there. There is a ton of money being poured in there. Tons of investors and hedge funds coming in and purchasing properties. So always be looking at what's going on in a market that I might not be in, that might be the next. That might be the next big thing.

So there's an example, though, by the way. Like, I have not warmed up to Detroit at all yet. Okay. I'm just totally not into it. But, you know, I have been watching it, you know, and I've been watching what people think. And in my book, it's all about population. So if there's in migration and if they're able to. I mean, that city, it's so cheap. Okay. I mean, you can get deals there all day long. It's not as cheap as it used to be, by the way. Prices have definitely gone up a bit. But. And, and, you know, there's also this. The concept of the micro markets within. Within the overall broader market, of course. So you can't even talk about any city. Like, it's one city, one monolithic thing. You know, it's a bunch of neighborhoods and areas and so forth. But. But yeah, yeah, no, it's. It's very interesting. So, yeah, so that's another good takeaway. But you can't see that. You can't know that stuff unless you're having all of these casual conversations with people over a meal, over a drink. And, you know, that's one of the other values of our events. So at Meet the Masters, you know, we're going to share many meals together and you're going to have a chance to network with a lot of investors and hear their experiences firsthand. The good, the bad and the ugly. As I like to say, because it's not all roses.

No, it is not. We've come too many bumps in the road along the way, but that's how you learn those experiences.

I just like to say it's not perfect. It's just better than everything else I know of. So that's about as much as I can say for it. It's, it's pretty awesome in that way. Well, Darlene, hey, thanks for joining us, listeners. I will be back in just a moment to talk about some other things with you and continue the show. Thanks, Darlene.

Thank you.

So I hope you enjoyed that talk with Darlene. And if you think her Roth IRA strategy is exciting, it is. But we've got even more in our talk about land contracts coming up at our Meet the Masters event. So be sure you sign up for that@jasonhartman.com click on the event section and get your tickets right away. And before we get to a caller today, one of our listeners and potential clients, I had a discussion with him that was kind of nice and interesting. And he was coming to us from Europe and we'll probably be coming to Masters. So you see people travel from all over the world for this, and we've had people from the Middle east, from Asia, from very far away come to this event. So I hope to see you there, too. But before that, I just thought I'd make a quick mention and you know, we'll obviously talk about this on future episodes. But Abe, Shinzo Abe, you may know that name, you've certainly heard it in the news. That is the guy who Abe Nomics was was based on. And he it looks like he got a new mandate in Japan as the prime minister and looks like they'll just continue along the same path that they've been doing for so many years, which is massive, massive quantitative easing, as they call it, which is a joke, what a misnomer that is. But it's the reflationary policy. And you know, since it is the holidays, you think of Santa Claus, right? And no matter what, with any election pretty much anywhere in the world, Santa Claus always wins the game. So Shinzo Abe just got a new mandate again to continue along the way he's he's been doing. And so we're going to see a lot more money creation to try and reinflate their economy. And that goes to show you also how incredibly concerned central banks and governments are about deflation, deflation, again, a very dangerous economic malady. And they will do whatever they can to, to make sure it doesn't happen because the best business plan and why we want to be aligned with governments and central banks is that the best business plan for them is inflation. And that is what will also create the best investment returns for us with our income properties. But of course, if inflation doesn't happen as much as they may try, then it's still pretty darn good. Probably the best thing out there in a deflationary, stagnationary environment. So anyway, let's get to our caller, a listener, and you will probably see him at Meet the Masters. So here he is. Hey, I wanted to introduce you to a prospective client who I've been on the phone with for just maybe 10 minutes or so now and he's so interesting. I asked him to record with me and be on the show and it's my pleasure to introduce Mark and he has been listening to the podcast for I'm not sure how long and he's talking to me from beautiful Switzerland. Mark, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you, Jason.

Good. It's good to have you. And where in Switzerland are you located?

I'm in the French speaking part of Switzerland around Geneva.

Fantastic. That's beautiful there. What a gorgeous country. And you've been talking to me about some really interesting stuff and share with the listeners just quickly your background. It sounds like you've done very well for yourself and now you're looking to real estate as your next investment vehicle, right?

That's right. So I was basically, I was writing financial articles about the stock market at the end of, starting from the end of 99 and it seemed just common sense to me that that was not a time to belong dot coms. So I started telling people that they should basically short the dot coms and buy perhaps some, some oil that was around 12 or $15 a barrel, if memory serves.

Wow. It's amazing. I didn't know it was that cheap.

Yeah, I think so. It was, it was kind of, yeah. Close to, close to some floor and gold perhaps around 200, 252 4, 240.

Like that I remember it.

And, and well, you know, to tell the truth, obviously that there's some luck in timing, as you know, but, but.

It has been and this is about 15, just to give context, this is.

About 15 years ago you're talking actually it's quite easy. My first, my first piece of Advice appeared on November 11, 1999. So there was a bit of sweating on my side until March, perhaps a little bit less than four months. So after that it was pretty much Pretty much easy, easy sailing from there.

Right? Right, absolutely. Okay, very interesting. So what, what made you, how long have you been listening to my podcast by the way?

It hasn't been that long, but I'm, I'm, I'm able to consume quite a lot of information so I, I kind of first I try to, to look at the different topics. So not listening perhaps to the full podcast, but like hovering over the topics and then listening in depth. And what struck me is that few people seem to understand, or at least understand and express themselves like you do, about the fact that right now would be an ideal time to work perhaps more on the liabilities balance of our personal balance sheets. Because of course we all love to buy stuff that goes up in value. But nowadays when we have money printing happening in most of the world, when you have the Fed's balance sheet growing at about perhaps 30 plus percent per year, well you might want to, or you might be able to grow your investments at 20 plus percent. But if it's only that you're lagging or you'll eventually be lagging, whereas if you align yourself with the government's interest, with the Fed's interest, then what you should have is basically have fixed rate debt long term and wait for the authorities to basically melt this debt away and let the currencies lose their purchasing power and have basically something that is like gold or some kind of commodity, but ideally something that pays you in the process.

Yeah, and in my eyes it's better than gold because gold is not multi dimensional, it's just one dimensional and income property is multidimensional. So you know my thinking on that. But you know Mark, I'm wondering. Well, I'm just so surprised that number one we don't have higher interest rates and number two, you know, and this has really only been for the past year, we, inflation really has calmed down. I mean it seems that it's, it's pretty, it's pretty subtle. The US is doing such a good job of exporting its inflation overseas. At least that's my theory as to what's going on and keeping it low at home, which is not very fair. But it is the way it is. And I mean it sure seems like with the spending a lot of inflation has to come our way.

Right.

I just don't know how it can't. But I'm surprised that more hasn't come already.

I feel that there's a lot of different products and services. Obviously we all know that government is trying to or has been changing the way it accounts for inflation. But in truth, I think that if you just look at the Big Mac index, you will see that in most of the world, it is basically keeping track with money supply, whereas some things are growing much faster, let's say contemporary art, the numbers are just skyrocketing. And so I think that you have a theory of two inflations where perhaps for the poorest people it is getting really hard because actually the cheapest stuff is worth always more. And we don't even talk about the fact that now they have to put wood pulp and that kind of stuff in junk food because meat is getting too expensive. And then on the other hand, you have the rich people's inflation, which might have or not, but depending on the stuff, some kind of lag. So I would say there's like the poorest people inflation keeping track. You have the hedge fund managers buying Jeff Koons art that is keeping track. And then in the middle there's some kind of, perhaps some lag or some inefficiencies like we have seen in the past in, you know, in other examples.

And I, I certainly agree that the government understates inflation. In fact, I'm sure all governments around the world do that. But you know, even with the government understating inflation, I've got to just admit, you know, I, I don't, I don't want to say it, but I think it's still relatively low. It's surprisingly low right now. Now, you know, I wouldn't have said that a year ago because there were some pretty significant increases, especially with food inflation for the last couple of years before that. But, you know, like I say, maybe technology will just save us all from this massive inflation. And even if it doesn't, if the inflation doesn't happen in any major way, we're still in the position where people, if we don't have inflation, then the problem is going to be where do you get yield? And I'm wondering if you agree with this, Mark. And then income property also performs very well. Now, my strategy works better in an inflationary environment. Works much better, but it'll still work pretty darn well in a stagflationary environment, or I should say stagnation, not stagflation. There is a difference, you know, and even a deflationary environment, it's not terrible, it's not as good, but, you know, you're right.

First of all, I would say on your earlier remarks that first of all, let's assume that everybody agrees that government suppresses inflation in its numbers. It might be with the best intentions in mind. If they think that they're preventing some kind of new civil war among the people of a country, that's perhaps worth it. This is the first thing. The second thing I'd like to say is that obviously we do live in different countries, you and I, so we might have different perceptions. I know that if I wanted to get the same prime cut of beef in the best restaurants of Zurich, I might have to pay a very different price than I would in an excellent restaurant in most of the United States. And then finally, yeah, basically the secret I would say to investing in reality has a lot to do with what is the majority of the people, what are they doing, the majority of the investors, and what are you doing yourself. And I think that the reason why I've been successful in the past is when Everybody wanted to buy.com comes and luckily towards the end I told people to do otherwise or to profit from the opposite happening really soon. And I think that right now we have a lot of investors who have been, when they were in school, they have been told that we live in a free market and that this is called capitalism and that the most efficient people win and all that. And what we're having now is not only has nothing to do with a true free market, but not only that, but we're going the other way. We're going from this idealistic free market to a more controlled economy. And perhaps it's only the beginning. And so I think people are playing with the old rules and those who have understood that the paradigm has changed and that perhaps we need to do something that's counterintuitive, like being in debt, which obviously we have all been taught is a horrible thing. You know, maybe it's those few early people who understand that and who witness that. So perhaps the more sensitive, the people who are more sensitive to risk or more risk averse or, I don't know, the perfectionists, but the canary in the coal mine, if you want. And this is perhaps what you are and what you have been. I am surprised, Jason, right now that basically what we are saying is not yet more mainstream. I'm not saying that this should be, or that this should already be what everybody's thinking, but that, that so few people are thinking that or at least that so few people are vocal about it. So perhaps it's just a well kept secret and those who know it don't want to talk about it. But I'm very surprised because this is so much against the mainstream of what you're reading in the paper.

Yeah, it sure is. They just want you to believe in the status quo. They want you to believe everything's largely okay, while at the same time you know, balancing that with the concept in the media of if it bleeds, it leads. You know, they do like sensationalism, no question. But you know, overall, the media, at least in the US but probably pretty much around the world, the mainstream media is all so big and so corporatized, it's just like Wall Street. They're all in bed with the government. And it's not just the US government, it's the government, the global government. You know, they're in bed with the industrialized countries, you know, all of them. I mean, it's just a, you know, I don't know if there are secret memos we need to see or things like that, or if it's an Edward Snowden type of conspiracy or if it's just sort of the vibe, if you will, of that world where, you know, they know what they can say and they know what they can't say. You know, I think it's hard to.

Tell to look at the numbers. And unless I'm sadly mistaken, but I have double checked these numbers, actually the Target viewership of CNBC, you know, they have less than 300,000 people left watching them in the United States on prime time.

That is a low. That is a low.

And what I'm talking about is that, you know, now when you board a plane anywhere in the world, you still get the Wall Street Journal, you still get the Financial Times, even if you have the International Herald Tribune, you will get several of the most important pages of newspaper dedicated to Wall Street. So what I think is fascinating is that you've got this old order which is still, they have changed nothing. Basically. You know, they're still using, you know, I wish I could say fax machine, but you know, I'm thinking more about like Flintstone type of tools. And things have changed. There's nobody left to watch this stuff, there's nobody left to read this stuff.

And it just, it just makes me feel so good that the alternative media has gained such a foothold, you know, whether it be podcasters or bloggers. Because I'll tell you, no one is telling me what to say. And I love that. Maybe I'll have a knock on the door sometime that say, hey, you can't say that.

So Jason, why are you telling you're for real? I always thought you were some kind of hologram controlled by Washington or the CIA.

Well, you know, even the crooks and the conspirators say they're for real too. So maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm just bought off by some group, you know, maybe Fannie Mae owns me. You haven't heard their commercials on the show. Right. Funny, funny stuff. Well, hey, what are your plans for your real estate portfolio, Mark? What are you thinking of doing?

Well, I realized already, I would say time flies, but perhaps at least three years ago, perhaps more, that despite the, you know, the real estate prices after subprime lending in the United States, despite that, the housing affordability, if you go to certain sites that will give you, in any country or city in the world the affordability numbers, you still have like 80% of the most affordable cities which are in the United States or regions, should I say, or states which are in the United States. In addition to that, there's a developed professional mortgage market in the United States which obviously is not the same as it used to be in the, you know, during the, the, the, the, the biggest.

It's the most developed. Yeah, it's the most developed mortgage market in the world. And that really, really says great opportunity. I mean, real estate in the U.S. it's just better than anywhere else I can find. It's, it's less expensive.

Jason, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't finished because I was going to say look at all the countries in the world where I can tell you about Geneva, where I have family who owns, who owns buildings, where it can take years until you evict somebody who never paid, paid you a cent for, for the rent. Then I haven't started talking about the, the rent prices being controlled in some kind of, in some regions or countries.

So in Germany they have big rent.

Yes. So you have to, you know, you have to look at all that and then say, okay, and then there's just, you know, to tell the truth, there's just the money creation. Actually I do have also I have profited already in Switzerland because the Swiss national bank has been the base money has grown faster than the Swiss GDP. So they have been printing in one year, in 12 months more than the Swiss has produced. Switzerland has produced gdp. So basically you could say that all the GDP could have been created with just fake money printed. And the Swiss, unfortunately, just.

That's just mind boggling. Isn't that mind boggling? I mean, that's worth repeating. Mar. They printed more than the GDP of the entire country.

So instead of having anybody working a single minute for a whole year, they could have just used the money that was printed and no consequences so far. And the thing is that it is mind boggling, but it is also, Jason, you have to think, you know, most of the investors, they whine, you know, why did I not win the lottery? Right? And here we have, for perhaps the first, I mean, for certainly the first, but perhaps also the last time in our lives, we have a global paper money bubble. And perhaps when we look back, perhaps in, I don't know, 20 or 30 or 50 years, our kids will tell us, you saw that happen and you did not take advantage of that.

You know, like, yeah, well, they might first say you didn't do anything to stop it, but then the second thing would be you didn't take advantage of it. Right.

Jason, let me also, let's address this. How do you stop it now? I see.

I mean, through government, through, through voting for people who will stop the spending and pay down the debt.

As a Swiss person, I did vote for, in favor of the initiative encouraging or forcing basically the Swiss national bank to buy gold and to stop printing. But obviously I was in the minority. But in addition to that.

Yeah, well, that's no fun. Why would anybody vote for that? It's too logical.

In addition to that, Jason, listen, one question. The question is, are we past the point of no return? So suppose that you're a kid and your father is an alcoholic and he's beating up your mother. And then you have two possibilities. Either you lead your dad to the path to sobriety and there's some amount of work for that to happen, or you serve him another glass of whiskey and, you know, perhaps he takes the car and kills himself. And, you know, if you really want this to stop, you have to make a conscious decision. You know, is the shortest way solution number one or solution number two? Now, obviously, you know, I would not be a good Christian if I choose solution number two. But assuming that there's no moral dilemma, it's just about efficiency and hurting the least people possible, I feel that it is best to help our government, which is basically to use the debt and to use the paper money that they're creating to profit basically from the money printing happening. Which is exactly the same as to telling the drunk guy that he should have another drink. And basically, when all this collapses, what happens in Iceland? Do you realize that in Iceland, thousands of people have just had a jubilee where the amount of their mortgage has been reduced, it has been reduced by several thousands or several tens of thousands on the amount that they owe? Would you rather Be the guy who now has less debt for nothing? Or would you be the guy who pays for this other guy who has less debt?

Yep, very, very good point, Very good point. Well, we've got to wrap up, so just, I want to have you finish that point, if you would.

Yeah. So I'm just saying perhaps, you know, the easiest way right now, perhaps we're past the point of no return. Perhaps the shortest way to the next solution to the new better equilibrium is to just help our governments spend and destroy, you know, get in debt and destroy the money supply faster with our help us being lenders. And we will profit from that. The people who are saving, who are putting their money aside, they will be losing. And that's perhaps, you know, a sad conclusion, but, but perhaps this is the shortest path to the next better equilibrium.

It might be and it might be just a rebalancing a jubilee. But I can tell you I think you are right and I am right in that being in debt, as long as it's long term, fixed rate, investment grade debt attached to commodities that are needed the world over by every human being is the ultimate strategy. You know, come inflation, deflation, stagnation, whatever, it's, it's going to be the best strategy.

And let me tell you one last thing. Perhaps since we don't have so much time left. I also had quite a lot of success in the stock market buying companies with net tangible assets of let's say hundred million and a market cap of 50 million because I knew that eventually either a raider comes and they split it off premium. And what you find now in some areas of the U.S. real estate market is properties at a fraction of replacement cost. And it is exactly the same situation. And actually you perhaps don't know it, Jason, but you're just like a raider of the 80s.

I'm a corporate raider. Like Ivan Boesky.

Exactly. You're the modern, even Boesky. And you're basically scooping up these assets at a lower than replacement value or replacement cost assets and you're profiting from it.

And that is the idea, my friend. I think that's a really good strategy for all of us. So let's just, let's keep doing it, let's. And let's actually, you know, do it, do it faster and do more of it. So good stuff. Well, thank you so much for just coming on the show, Mark, as an impromptu guest like that. I really appreciate it and, and listeners out there, we would, I was talking with Sarah about this recently. We would really love to have more listeners on the show. So if you want to be on the show, if you've got a question, if you want to talk about an issue, all you need to do is just go to Jason hartman.com Jason so that's easy to remember, right? Jason hartman.com Jason and pick a time and we'll record. Okay. And we'll have you on the show. So thank you so much, Mark, for joining us. I appreciate it and so do the listeners.

Yes. And for your listeners, I can confirm and I can vouch for Jason. He's as punctual as a Swiss.

Well, you were the one who called me, so you were the punctual one. I just happened to answer. But I do like Swiss watches, so. Good stuff.

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