CW 477 – Dr. Gary Chapman – Valentine’s Day Special “The Five Love Languages” with Best-Selling Author, Speaker & Pastor

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Welcome to the Creating wealth show. Thank you so much for listening from.

All around the world.

We very much appreciate you listening to the show and wanted to give you a special kind of bonus episode for today. And it is Valentine's Day and you.

Know what that means.

That means everybody is thinking about love and romance. And I wanted to play for you a prior episode.

I did.

And of course it's not Friday, so it's not Flashback Friday. It's not a 10th episode where we go off topic and discuss something of general interest like love and romance. Nope, this one is a special episode and we're gonna call it Sentimental Saturday. Yes, I just made that one up. Sentimental Saturday. Okay, we'll have Gary Chapman, Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the Five Love Languages, an excellent primer on romance and how to keep romance alive and make relationships work. I hope you enjoy that as a kind of a special bonus episode here for Valentine's Day. And I want to wish all of you listen from 164 countries around the world a very happy and romantical, that's a new word for you, a romantical Valentine's Day. Let's go to our guest, Dr. Gary Chapman and talk about the five love languages.

My pleasure to welcome Dr. Gary Chapman to the show. He is a very well known marriage counselor and director of marriage seminars. His very, very famous work, he has many of them but his probably most famous is the Five Love Languages and it has sold upwards of six copies, translated into 40 languages and has been on the number one spot of the New York Times best seller list and on many other best seller lists. It's a pleasure to have Gary from North Carolina today. Gary, welcome. How are you?

Well, thank you, Jason. It's good to Be with you. I'm doing great.

Well, good, good. So tell us about the five love languages. And we want to hear from the perspective of people looking for a relationship and people in a relationship as well. And I know you've got the five love languages for singles. You've got a new book about what people should have known or wish they'd known before getting married. And so for. But start wherever you like, Gary.

Well, you know, what I discovered years ago, Jason, in counseling is that what makes one person feel loved doesn't necessarily make another person feel loved. So they would sit in my office, husband and wife. She would say, I just feel like he doesn't love me. And he would say, I don't know what else to do. You know, I do this and this and this, and she doesn't feel loved. So he was sincere, he was loving her. She didn't get it. And I realized that people were missing each other. I kept hearing the similar stories over and over again, and I knew there was a pattern. I just didn't know what it was. So I went through about 12 years of my counseling notes and asked myself, when someone said in my office, I feel like my spouse doesn't love me, what did they want? What were they complaining about? And their answers fell into five categories. I later called them the five love languages. And I started sharing that in small groups, and then I started sharing it in my counseling that we each have a different love language and you have to learn to speak the other person's language. And after about five years of using that in small groups and counseling, I decided to write the book because I knew that it would help people learn how to connect with each other emotionally. And then, you know, I was thinking primarily in the marriage relationship. And the original book does is address to married couples, but I had a lot of singles say, you know, I know you wrote that book for couples, but I read it and it helped me in all of my relationships. Why don't you write one for singles? So that's how the singles edition was born. Because I do think that this applies in all human relationships.

Yeah. And you even address dealing with your children, probably your friends, everything, Right. The five languages apply in intimate relationships and non intimate relationships too, right?

Yeah. You know, Jason, let's face it, the deepest emotional need we have is the need to feel loved. Everybody wants to feel loved by the significant people in their lives. If you do feel loved, life is beautiful. If you don't feel loved, life can be very complex. So whether you're talking about A parent, child relationship, or whether you're talking about a dating relationship or a married relationship, learning how to communicate love in a language the other person will feel. You know, it's meeting that emotional need for love. That's what this book is all about. That's why I think this book has been so successful.

Well, you know, Gary, I can't help but kind of make the connection here. All of the listeners, of course, know what the golden rule is. Hopefully they practice the golden rule. But I had Tony Alessandro on one of my shows, and you probably know his work. He talks about the platinum rule, and that is treating people the way they want to be treated. And I think that ties in pretty well with the five love languages, doesn't it? Because you gotta communicate with a person on their own, their own preference, their own modality, right?

Yeah, that's exactly right, Jason. You know, typically we speak our own language. Whatever makes me feel loved is what I'm going to do for the other person. But if that's not their language, it won't mean to them what it would mean to me. So let's say that my language is words of affirmation. And what I want to hear my wife say is, I love you. You're wonderful. I appreciate what you did, you know, all these positive things. So that's what I do for her because it makes me feel loved. But her language may be acts of service, doing things for her. So here I am giving her all these words, and after a while she's going to say to me, you know, you keep saying, I love you, I love you. You know, I'm kind of sick of the words, if you love me, why don't you do something to help me? Right?

She wants you to show it to her, right?

Absolutely. And I'm blown away. You know, I was loving the woman. What's wrong?

You can't figure out why she's upset? Right? Makes sense. Well, you know, you just told us two of the five languages. What are the other three?

Receiving gifts. Universal to receive gifts as an expression of love. My academic background is anthropology, especially cultural anthropology. We've never discovered a culture where gift giving is not an expression of love. So giving gifts and receiving gifts and then quality time, giving the person your undivided attention. I'm not talking about sitting in the same room watching television. TV is off. You're looking at each other, you're interacting, you're sharing, you're listening. Quality time. They have your undivided attention. And then number five is physical touch. And we've long known the emotional power of physical touch. So we're talking about. In every culture, there are appropriate touches between males and females, whether they're married or whether they're single. And it's physical touch that communicates love to some people. This is their primary language.

I love the way Dennis Waitley says that. He says touch is the magic wand of intimacy. So that's. Yeah, that's definitely important. How do we discover, Gary, what someone else's language is? You don't just ask them, do you? Or what is the best way to go about that?

Well, you know, if. If you were discussing the topic with them and they're open, you can go online and take a little quiz, or they can go online and take a little quiz and they'll tell them, and then they'll tell you. That's one way. And that would be at five lovelanguages. Calm. But another way. There's two or three other clues. One is you observe their behavior. How do they respond to other people? If they're always. When they greet people, giving them a pat on the back or a hug, then physical touch is probably their language. If they're speaking that to others on a regular basis, it's probably what they want. If they're always giving encouraging words to people, then words of affirmation is probably their language. So observe their behavior. Secondly, what do they complain about most often? The wife who says to the husband, we don't ever spend any time together. I mean, we're like two ships passing in the night. She's saying, quality time is my love language, and I'm not getting it from you. So what the compiler they complaining about? If he says to her, I don't think you would ever touch me if I didn't initiate it, he's telling her that physical touch is his love language. So listen to the complaints. And then thirdly, what do they request of you most often? If they're saying periodically, could we take a walk after dinner? Or you think we could get a weekend away? They're asking you for quality time. If you put those three together, Jason, you'll very likely find out the other person's primary love language.

Yeah, good point. Let's actually kind of put it in reverse here and go maybe in chronological order. What's the title of your new book, Gary?

My new book is Things I Wish I Had Known Before We Got Married.

Okay, so perfect. I want to talk about that. And you have another book, the Five Love Languages for Singles. Let's start with the single person Looking for a relationship. And then we'll tie it back into being in a relationship as you are just now. How do singles use your body of work, whether it be the things they wish they knew or the five languages?

Well, this most recent book, Things I Wish I had Known Before We Got Married, I really wrote that to singles in all categories, whether they're dating or whether they're engaged or whether they're just hoping to find somebody they can relate to. And what I'm saying to them is, if you think that someday you will get married, now is the time to prepare for marriage. Don't wait, you know, until you are engaged and then say, oh, we got to get ready for marriage. No, get ready for marriage now. You know? And I'm sharing in that book 12 things that had I known these things, it would have made my life much easier in the early days of my marriage. So I'm trying to say to singles, why don't you learn from my mistakes? You know, here are some things that can help you. For example, one of the things I talk about in that book is I wish I'd known that falling in love or being in love is not an adequate foundation for marriage. And the reason I say that is the experience that we typically call falling in love is temporary. It has an average lifespan of two years. You will come down off the high. And that's when all the other things that you ignored that your friends told you about, you know, your mother said, honey, have you considered he hasn't had a steady job in five years? And you said, mama, give him a break. He's just waiting for the right opportunity. But when you come down off the high, you're going to start thinking, mother was right, he's lazy. So I wish I'd known that before I got married. Because when I came down off the high, right, not very long after we got married, I was frustrated. I didn't realize that it was going to come down. And when I came down, I thought, oh, man. And I realized there were things about her that irritated me. And we ended up arguing with each other. And it wasn't a very pretty picture. And I wish I'd been prepared for that. I wish I'd known that. There's two stages of romantic love. One is the in love experience, which the emotions push you along. And then there's the more intentional stage, which we're talking about today in the five love languages, where you have to learn how to keep emotional love alive by speaking each other's love language. So for singles I would say if you can acquaint yourself with this love language concept and then read this book on things I wish I'd known, I think it'll give you ideas on what you need to be talking about when you do get in a dating relationship, or if you're already in a dating relationship. It will give you an idea of the kind of topics the two of you need to discuss and the issues, things you need to learn on the road to getting married.

Very good points. And with that, any more about how someone discovers it or discovers those things in that partner? I mean, is this a disqualifier in any sense, Gary, or is it just a better relating tool? Or do sometimes you find that maybe a couple doesn't relate, have their different languages and so forth, but do they ever just not work in your eyes? Or can any relationship work if it's working?

I don't think so. I think now, obviously, if their number one, that is their primary love language, their number one out of the five is your number five, that is, it means almost nothing to you, then you will have a learning curve. But the good news is you can learn to speak these languages. Let's face it, most of us did not grow up hearing and speaking these five languages. We perhaps learned one or two of them, you know, and that's what we speak. And so let's say if words of affirmation did not come easily to you, you didn't receive a lot of words of affirmation. You're not motivated to do that. It doesn't, you know, you just, it's very meaningless to you. And then you find out that the person that you're dating or the person you're married, that that's their primary language. Well, you're going to have to work at it. You know, it's going to be a learning curve. I usually suggest, get you a notebook, start writing down things you admire about the person, things you like about them. Listen to people, other people, as they share comments, and you hear those comments. Maybe when you read a book or listen to television or so forth, write down positive statements. You hear people say, stand in front of the mirror, read those things out loud so you hear yourself saying them, Pick out one of them, walk in the room where they are and say it. You know, you break the silence. And the second time it's easier. The third time it's easier. You can learn to speak words of affirmation even if you didn't grow up receiving that love language.

What is the love tank?

I use that Concept, Jason, simply to give people a visual image. You know, an automobile has a gasoline tank, and if the gasoline tank is full, it's going to operate fine. If the gasoline tank is empty, the car is not going to operate. And I like to say that we have an emotional love tank and if the love tank is full, that is, we genuinely feel loved by the other person, the relationship moves along in a positive way. But if the love tank is empty, you don't feel loved by that person, then the relationship begins to get shaky and essentially, eventually, if you don't do anything about it, the relationship will die. Because if a relationship does not have a sense of love, a measure of emotional love, the relationship goes downhill.

My ex girlfriend, Lynn is the person who actually introduced me to your work about two years ago maybe. And I believe she mentioned something, Gary, about a time frame of two years. What was that about? Was that, was she correct in mentioning that or am I referring that properly?

Yeah, it's based on the research that was done by Dorothy Tenney, Bridgeport, Connecticut. She did a long term study on the in love experience that is this euphoric stage of a love relationship where you see the person as just being absolutely, incredibly wonderful. You don't see the negative things that are there. You're just pushed along by these euphoric emotions. It's something you, you've never felt before or you've seldom felt before. And you just know that you're going to be happy, if you can, with this person forever. We call it falling in love or being in love. And her study indicated that the average lifespan of that heightened emotion is two years. And so consequently, most people date at least two years before they get married. So when they get married, rather soon after they get married, they tend to come down off a high. Now, some people blame marriage on that. They say, well, you know, honeymoon is over before we got married. That's nothing to do with whether you get married or don't get married. You will come down off the highway whether you marry or whether you don't marry. So that's what she was talking about. And that's why here's what happens, Jason. A lot of times in the dating relationship, a couple will be attracted to each other, they start dating, they become obsessed with each other, they feel loved by each other, and things just go along really, really wonderful. And then the two years pass and they begin to come down off the high and they don't have those feelings and they start thinking, well, maybe this is not the right one for me. You know, I don't feel like I used to feel. Well, if you understand this, you know that what's happening is very natural and very normal. Now what happens most of the time when people don't understand this, they bail out on that relationship, they get out of that relationship. Whereas they may have really been good for each other, they may have been a good match for each other, but they made the decision to break off the relationship because they lost the love feelings. Had they learned the love language concept, spoken each other's language, then they would keep emotional love alive and they could make their decision to marry or not to marry based on other issues in the relationship. You know, do we have enough in common.

Intellectually, emotionally, socially, all those things to really build a marriage? So I think if singles understand this, it will help them assess their dating relationships.

Yeah, makes, makes a lot of sense. So that two year point, it's a recommendation then that says don't get married before two years, Is that what you're saying?

Well, I wouldn't say that necessarily, but I would say you're more, far more likely to make a wise decision if you have come down off the high because then you recognize some of their weaknesses as well as their strengths and you can work on those things. But when you're in that euphoria, you think, well, we don't have anything to work on. You know, it's just perfect. I mean, what. In fact, I had a lady say to me, she was engaged and she was in the euphoria and she asked me what I did. I said, well, I do marriage seminars. And she said, well, what's that? I said, well, I help people work on their marriage. And she said, well, what do you have to work on? I mean, if you're in love, you.

Know, it's all just easy, right? Yeah, yeah.

And that's the way you feel when you're in love. You know, there's nothing to work on.

Yeah, that wears off eventually and it gets down to a realistic relationship. Exactly. Let me take a brief pause. We'll be back in just a minute.

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One of the things you talk about the different of the five languages, but one of them in particular, words of affirmation. Since that one involves words, it has some different documents, dialects to it, doesn't it, Gary?

Yeah, it can be words that focus, for example, on their personality. One of the things I like about you is you're so optimistic. You know, I tend to be pessimistic. You're saying to this person if, you know, obviously needs to be a true statement, but it can focus on their personality, it can focus on the way they look, it can focus on something they did for you. It can be encouraging words, you know, they express to you a desire to do something and they're a little fearful of doing it. And you say, well, you know, it's up to you, of course, to decide what you'd like to do. But just observing you, I think that if you really want to do that, you would be a success at it because I see a lot of qualities in you that would really equip you to do that. It's encouraging them to do something that they need a little more courage to do. Or it can be words of praise where you're praising them for something they have done. So, you know, I use the word dialect and trying to communicate that within each of these languages there are different ways and nuances of expressing them. You know, it's very similar, Jason, to spoken language Everyone grows up speaking a language with a dialect. I grew up speaking English Southern style. Okay, and we can hear it. Yeah, you can hear it. Yeah. But everyone grows up speaking a language and a dialect, and that's the one you understand best. And the same thing is true with love.

No question about it. Of the five languages, are certain, of the five, easier to learn than others?

I think not necessarily across the board, but for an individual, one of them might be more difficult than the others. If you never received quality time growing up, your parents never really spent any one on one time with you, you were just a part of the family, you were kind of lost in the crowd. They were focused on themselves. Then sitting down and having an in depth conversation with somebody may be difficult for you because you didn't grow up having those kind of conversations. So it would be more difficult for you. Whereas another person, if they got a lot of quality time, it's natural for them, it's not difficult for them. So it depends on the individual as to which of these you might find to be more difficult to speak. But the good news is you can learn to speak any one of the five.

What would you say is, and I certainly don't mean this in any sort of non appreciative way when I say this, but this seems pretty simple really. I mean, what's the big aha about it? Is it just one of these things that's so beautifully simple, but just needs to be practiced? I mean, not everything great in life is complicated. Or is there sort of a big aha here in this book or in your work in general, that is a real take home. You want to make sure people get well.

Jason, I think you're exactly right. It's a very simple concept. But when you practice it, that is, when you discover the person's love language, you start speaking it on a regular basis, they discover your language, start speaking it on a regular basis, it radically changes the emotional climate of the relationship. Almost every Saturday when I do marriage seminars, I'll have half a dozen couples come up and say, we just wanted to tell you that we were having real struggles in our marriage. Someone gave us your book on the five love languages. It actually saved our marriage. It really makes the difference because we all need to feel loved. And especially in the early stages of a marriage, we are loving each other. I mean, we're making real efforts to reach out to each other, but we're not always connecting. And when we spend our energy speaking the right language, we connect. So it's a simple concept. It doesn't help you if you don't apply it, but if you apply it, it really changes the emotional climate of a relationship.

Talking just for a moment here about some more of the nuances, as we were, Are certain stereotypes affecting people's ability to implement any of the five languages? For example, acts of service speaking acts of services. Are there stereotypes that people filter things through that makes it difficult for them?

I think that may be true, Jason. For example, a man said to me after he had read the book and he discovered that his wife's language was acts of service. He said to me, I found out that her language is acts of service and she wants me to wash dishes and vacuum floors and take out the garbage. And he told a couple of other things. He said, I'll just be honest with you. He said, if it's going to take that for her to feel loved, you can forget it. Now you understand what he was saying? I've got the information, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not going to do that. Now, it may well be that stereotypes of what men are supposed to do and women are supposed to do was behind that statement. You know, maybe he grew up in a home where his father did not vacuum floors, his father did not wash dishes, his father did not take out garbage. And he communicated to that son, either verbally or by his model that men don't do those things. So he may have been influenced by, you know, a stereotype of what a male is supposed to do, and that may have been behind his decision. I don't know. There may have been other issues as well. But yeah, I do think that there, there are certain stereotypes that people may have as to what men do and women do that may kind of hinder them from moving down the road to express love in that language.

You have been writing for a long time and you've just got a giant body of work. Tell us about some of your other works. I mean, as I look at your list of titles, it is pretty comprehensive here. You've got a lot of work. Gary, talk about some of your other works, if you would.

Well, you know, one of the books I wrote was on anger, and it's another one of my very popular books because I think a lot of people misunderstand anger and they don't know how to handle anger, and they simply operate on the model that they had in their mom and dad. If their dad yelled and screamed in anger, then he probably is going to yell and scream in anger. If his mother in anger, would Clam up and walk away and not say anything and not discuss whatever stimulated the anger, then that's probably what she's going to do or he's going to do. So we all grew up with a model of how our parents handled anger. And let's face it, we don't get a whole lot of training in our culture on how to handle anger. We see a lot of mismanaged anger.

Yeah, we see a lot of bad examples. That's exactly what I was going to say. Especially on television.

Yeah, absolutely. So that book has been very, very popular where I talk about the origin of anger. Why do we get angry? I think it's because we have a sense of right. All of us have a sense of right that people shouldn't do, that people shouldn't do this. And whenever we're treated wrongly or unfairly in our minds, then we experience anger. Anger is the response to being treated wrongly or unfairly. And then, you know, we don't. In the book, I deal with techniques on how to slow down the process of response. Don't simply do the first thing that comes to your mind. My mother told me growing up, when you get angry, count to 10 before you do anything.

Take a deep breath.

Yeah.

Or whatever. Right?

Yeah, yeah. Good advice. Only I would suggest you count to a hundred or a thousand. You know, you need a little more time to cool down. In fact, one lady told me, she said, what I do when I get angry, I go water my flowers until I cool down. She said, the first summer I tried that, I almost drowned my petunias.

So, you know. But learning how to process anger in a positive way. And the flip side of that I also deal with in the book is how how to respond to an angry person. You know, maybe your teenager, it may be your next door neighbor, it may be your spouse, it may be your boyfriend or girlfriend who's angry. And they're coming at you, you know, in a rather harsh and harsh way and loud way, perhaps. How do you respond to them? See, the typical response is that we respond in a similar way. We mirror their behavior in kind.

Right.

You know, if they're yelling at us, we start yelling at them. But I deal with, you know, a pattern of the first step is you listen. No matter how they're delivering the message, you listen to what they're saying. The second step is you listen because you didn't get it all the first time.

Listen twice.

Yeah, you say, yeah, I think I hear you saying you're mad because da, da, da. And they say well, that's part of it, you know, and the third step is you listen. So you listen three times, at least three times before you say anything, you know, and then you say to them something similar to, you know, I think I understand what you're saying, and if I were in your shoes, I'm sure I would be angry, too. Wow. You're no longer their enemy, you're now their friend.

You know, that's a pretty diffusing statement. I mean, you know, it's hard to remain upset someone says that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that book has been very, very popular and have another book that was called the Four Seasons of Mary.

I was just going to ask you about that one. I'm particularly interested in some of the bullet points on that. The unique characteristics found in each season. Seven Strategies for Making the Most of each Season. Tell us more about that one.

Well, it's not the idea that most people think, you know, when I say the four seasons, they think, okay, you get married in spring, and if you live long enough, you'll get to winter. But what I do is I use the seasons to describe the quality of the marriage. A winter marriage, it's very cold. We're isolated. We're like in an igloo. And there's either no communication or it's very harsh communication. We speak of bitter winters or harsh winters. A summer marriage marriage is relaxed, it's laid back. You've learned how to resolve conflicts. You've learned how to accept some things about each other that you don't particularly like, but you know they're not going to change, so you accept them. And summer marriages are people that go to marriage seminars. They read books on marriage. They know you have to continue to water the flowers if you want the marriage to continue to bloom. And then the fall marriage here in North Carolina, in the fall, it's beautiful. The leaves are all colors. It's just incredibly beautiful. But the reality is, in about six weeks, the leaves are going to fall off the trees and it's getting cold. Yeah. So in a fall marriage, it looks good on the outside. People would say, isn't that a nice couple? But we know that things aren't going well, and if we don't do something, the leaves are going to fall off and everybody's going to know that we're not doing well. So after I describe that and help people locate where they are, and it's not atypical that a wife would say we're in winter and the husband would say we're in spring, or fall. They have different perceptions on where they are. But then I deal with seven strategies for spending more time in spring and summer. And one of those first strategies is being willing to deal with past failures and to be honest and say, you know, to be honest with you, I haven't done a good job. And I know that our relationship is not what it should be. And I know that a lot of it is my fault. And here are some things that I really, that I know specifically where I have failed. And I really would like to ask if you would be open to forgiving me and then help me learn how I can be a better partner in this relationship. And I give some other strategies. But the book has been very helpful. In fact, I've had a lot of people say to me, two of your books changed our marriage. One was the Five Love Languages and the other one was the Four Seasons of Marriage.

Yeah, and I tell you, Gary, of course you've probably seen many of your reviews, not all of them, but if you look on Amazon, any of the listeners and see the reviews, there are all kinds of people saying that your books have saved their marriage and just helped them grow in their relationships and so forth. So just congratulations on such an impactful body of work that you have with all of this. You mentioned earlier that someone can take a little quiz to discover their primary love language and maybe that of their spouse as well, or their significant other. Where can they do that? Do you have an your website?

Yes, 5lovelanguages.com. You can spell out the word 5 or you can put in the number 5 5lovelanguages.com and you can take that quiz. There's no charge. It's a free quiz. It can be a good communication tool if you take it. You challenge your spouse to take it or your significant other to take it, and then the two of you sit down and share with each other how it turned out and talk about whether you agree with it or not. It's possible you might disagree with the quiz, but at least it will give you a starting point to open this topic and discuss it with the other person.

Fantastic. What else would you like the listeners to know? Just in wrapping things up?

Well, I think for singles, I'd like to say what I said earlier, and that is now is the time to prepare for a good marriage. You may not even be dating, or maybe you just started dating two months ago, or maybe you're even thinking about getting married. But wherever you are in the journey, this is the time to be preparing for marriage and I really think you would find some practical help in my book, Things I Wish I Had Known Before We Got Married. I think, Jason, if a couple will go through that book, read the chapters, discuss the issues with each other, they're going to be better prepared than 90% of the couples are when they go into marriage. And if you're already married and have not read the Five Love Languages, I would really, really encourage you to read the Five Love Languages. I think today we've given them the core idea of but as you read it and get all the illustrations, real life illustrations, I think you'll be able to get hold of it, go home, discuss it with your spouse, or if you're in a dating relationship, just discuss it with them. And I think you're going to find that that's going to be very, very helpful in all of your relationships.

Excellent. Dr. Gary Chapman, thank you so much for joining us today. Appreciate the insights and keep up the good work. @garychapman.org There is the list of many of your books and there are quite a lot of them. So many subjects we didn't have time to discuss today. And there's a lot more depth there as well. And certainly listeners take that quiz and check it out. And do you want to mention anything about your live events?

You know, they can find those at Five Love Languages Calm and they can even register online as well. And I would just mention this, Jason, I have a new book coming out that takes this love language concept to the workplace. It's called the Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace. And I wrote it with Dr. Paul White, a psychologist. And we think that book's going to do for the workplace relationships what the Five Love Languages has done for marriage relationships. I'm really excited about that one.

Yeah, that's great. And with the tough economy we have nowadays, I think that'll be very helpful for people in their business and work life as well. Well, Gary Chapman, again, thank you so much. Appreciate having you on the show today.

Thanks Jason. Good to be with you. Appreciate what you're doing.

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