CW 783 - Patrick Donohoe - What's NEXT for REI and The Economy, Perpetual Wealth, Infinite Banking & More

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Welcome to the Creating Wealth show, episode number 783. It is an amazing time to be alive. This is your host, Jason Hartman. And welcome listeners in 164 countries worldwide. My guest today, who will be with me through the entire show, is Pat Donahoe. He is the CEO, CEO of Paradigm Life. And he has some pretty interesting, unique tools that help real estate investors. And we're going to talk about that. But first I just wanted to get a little debrief because he was one of our distinguished speakers at Meet the Masters of Income Property 2017. So I wanted to quickly debrief on that. Also talk about the new administration and this massive tidal wave, tsunami, sea change that is coming at all of us, which I think is a very good one. I think we're in for. Boy, happy days are here again. I don't know, maybe I'm being too optimistic, but. Pat, welcome. How are you?

I'm great, Jason. I'm great. Yeah, it's going to Happy days. Happy. I mean, not many people are happy, but there are certain people that are.

There are some disgruntled people, but when they see their paychecks increase, I think they're gonna get a lot happier. They're probably not gonna give the evil Donald Trump any credit for it because they hate him. But it's gonna happen. You know, the rising tide floats all ships and lower wage and middle wage people are going to benefit from this massive economic stimulus which I believe is underway. He's only been in office a day, so.

Well, he was doing, he was doing a lot even before he went into office and look at all the momentum that he created there. So it's, yeah, it's been, it's Been impressive.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Well, we're going to talk about that. And by the way, you are coming to us from beautiful Salt Lake City today. I was actually out there last week visiting you and talking about some business things and so forth and I wanted to just get your take on Meet the Masters of Income Property. We had that. I just got back last night from Irvine, California. You spoke there along with G. Edward Griffin, who's the author of the Creature from Jekyll Island. Very famous author and he was awesome. And Garrett Sutton, the author of many best selling books in the Rich dad series and outside of the Rich dad series with Robert Kiyosaki. We also had Darren Bloomquest with Realty Track and Adam Data Solutions talk about what to expect in the real estate market and you know, a lot of wonky economist type stuff, charts and graphs and, and we're, we're giving those his charts and graphs, his slide deck to all of our ATT for Meet the Masters. We had, I think we probably had about 140 people there. And you know, Pat, what do you think of the event?

Well, I mean it was the first time I had been to a Meet the Masters event and I've gone to lots of different conferences. But I was impressed. Jason, you did a great job and I think it was really interesting to see just the diversity of topics and speakers and that's with me and kind of how I look at whether it's my investment or my business or the economy. I'm big on being prepared and looking at what you presented, or at least your speakers presented was from a data standpoint what the economy is doing from that kind of objective measurement with the Reality Track guy. But also multiple markets and how they address certain things going on in their specific market. It was intriguing. It helped kind of confirm a few things for me as far as what I think is going on in the economy. But at the same time it also brought up some other questions that I had. But the people there, the caliber of people was incredible. I had some fascinating conversations just in investing, but also from an economic and philosophic standpoint because G. Edward Griffin was there. Some great conversations as well. So I think that's the 50% of the benefit is really the people you get to meet and network with and get to know. So I had a great time.

Yeah, there's so much exchange of ideas that happen and this was the first time we did breakout sessions. So I got some really good feedback about that. Even though it was raining and pouring and storming in Southern California, that's for sure. Who says it never rains in California? I don't know.

Yeah, I went, I went from 18 inches of snow to, to 18 inches of rain.

It seemed like, you know, it, it must be all that global warming, I guess, you know, always the reason the weather is changing. But you know, whatever, it was freezing and that's due to global warming, I guess. You know, that's the logic. You know, you can make any new logic nowadays. You can make anything up and make anything try to make sense. It's cr. So Pat, you know, Trump has been in office for one day. Literally yesterday was his first day, his first work day. And already there are like Foxconn. I couldn't believe what I read. Foxconn is the Chinese manufacturer that creates all these Apple products in China and they're giant by the way. And, and they now said that they are considering a 7 billion dollar billion with a billion dollar factory in the US that would create 50,000 jobs. I don't think that would have ever happened under probably any other president, even Reagan, who was considered to be very business friendly. And you know, basically it works like this. If, if the companies want to bring their goods into the US and access the largest consumer market and the largest economy the human race has ever known, the U.S. economy, the, what is it, about $18 trillion economy, 72% of which is consumption. So it's not just the size of our economy, but it's the massive consumption of, you know, the American, Americans are consumers, okay, like no other. Right. And you know, we can argue whether that's good or bad, but it is the way it is. And you know, and so, you know, the, the toll you have to pay to access it is a tariff. And you know, philosophically, I don't really, you know, I love free market stuff. But just from a practical purpose, when you have the playing field so unlevel, you know, with Chinese workers making nothing compared to American workers. But you know, then again that affects American workers because it pulls down their wages, creates unemployment here or underemployment and you know, the discouraged workers which aren't even counted in the unemployment roles. So people, this is, you've got to peel several layers back of this onion. But Pat, like, you know, it's, it's, it's a better deal now the way Foxconn looks at it. And so many of these other companies to just set up a factory in the US so they don't have to pay a tariff. Right? And so that'll bring, I mean, 50,000 jobs in one swoop. You know, there have been many other deals that Trump made before he even was president. And like you said, he set this whole backdrop, this whole context for this. You know, what, what do you think? I mean, what can we expect?

Well, I, what I, and I try not to speculate a lot, and that's why I've, you know, last year I started to go through a lot of his books and get an idea of how he did business, because I just came to the conclusion that the way in which he would run a country would be similar to his philosophy of business. And I think he, you know, so far, it hasn't been too much time. He stayed true to that, and his passion is getting deals, and he made that very clear in his campaign. And looking at what he's doing right now, I think.

He'S making the wager to the rest of the world, which is, he said this in his inauguration speech. America is first. And so if there are deals out there that is weighted more toward the trading partner rather than America, he's going to change that. And so if that's the reason Foxconn decided to make that announcement. But I mean, you look at, like the, you know, reinstituting some of the negotiations with nafta, reinstituting that, and also, you know, the Trans Pacific Partnership, those were his first orders of business, which sends a signal to all the trading partners, which is, you guys better, you know, do deals with us, you better do what we say, or else you're going to, you're going to lose. And I think people are, I think trading partners are thinking, they know he's serious. And so it's going to be interesting. And I would say, once you give me some feedback there, I would say that there's always going to be unintended consequences to that, because you are removing production and price structure through how a product is created from a country where it's cheaper in all things being considered, cheaper than the U.S. really, the tariffs and the taxes they're going to have to pay. And whatever deal that is negotiated, you know, if it doesn't come out to a net cost of, of the same, you know, it may adjust prices on the upward so that even though people have more money in their pocket, they may be paying higher prices. I mean, that's the rhetoric that I've heard. So it's going to be interesting to see how the deals actually play out and what the consideration is given, you know, from the United States to this.

Trading partner and this May sound like, you know, Trump is being a tough guy jerk, right? But that's only when you compare it to the terrible deal that prior administrations, especially Bill Clinton, but they, every one of them, have sold out the American worker. Okay? It's not just Clinton. I mean, you know, this goes way back, okay? And everything in between. But Clinton was one of the biggest offenders, I believe. You know, they just sold out the American worker. And so now to get things back to, like, equilibrium, that's. That's all that he's doing, you know, is getting, like, a reasonable deal back and. And not incentivizing these companies to leave American soil. I mean, it's just been. It's just been terrible. They take all these jobs with them. They have no loyalty. It's kind of like in sports, how they, you know, in the old days of sports, and I don't know much about sports because I have way too much to do than watch, you know, sports games on tv. But, you know, in the old days, you used to have the home team, right? And the home team was a pretty, you know, solid home team, and you knew who the players were year after year, and. And, you know, they change out a little bit. But then when you had free agency begin, there was no such thing as a home team anymore, right? Because all those players moved around all the time, and they just became, you know, you could call them capitalists or you call them prostitutes, whatever, right? They just. They just became looking for the best deal, right? And they had no, like, allegiance to the hometown anymore or the home team. And that's what's happened with these big multinational corporations. You know, they have no allegiance to the people that made them successful. All these companies, they, you know, they got successful selling to the American consumer, but they don't feel any need to give back and create jobs for American consumers. Right?

Well, I think. I think you look at, you know, whether it's the Clintons or with President Obama, they. Former President Obama, I guess I should say now, but they. I think if you look at him, his, you know, the narrative was he was the world. He was the world leader. He wasn't the. Just the US Leader. I think he looked at himself as a thought leader for the world. But at the same time, that's. That's.

It's.

That is not really how I think those healthy relationships are created because the cultures around the world are much different than the culture of the United States. So I think, as, you know, he would try to pander to people or he would try to be Nice. Or make friends in a certain sense. Right. He gave up. He gave up a lot, and he gave lots of. I mean, we're still giving a lot of money to the outside world as this kind of sign of charity. And I think they, you know, whether it's the Clintons or whether it's with him, it's this, well, we need to give. We are so prosperous and we have abundance and we need to give to other people, but that it never works. And typically we get the raw end of the deal when it comes to it. And so that's where I think with Trump, you know, he's a businessman, he's not emotional, he's not trying to be a world leader. And I think, you know, when he was preaching on the campaign trail, he wasn't just preaching to the American public, he was sending a signal to the rest of the world. And like I said, that's just how I look at it from an information standpoint, looking at what the result is going to be because of some of his initiatives. That is where I'm just curious because really, those big changes where you're removing, you know, removing jobs from other countries, you're removing their ability to produce, what is it going to do there? Plus, we have big trade balances or trade deficits with China and with Mexico, which with Mexico probably reduce once he renegotiates nafta. But looking at the holders of Treasuries, if we start to mess with China, they could just keep selling Treasuries, and who knows what that's going to do to the bond market. There's all these derivatives of the actual initiative, and I'm just curious to see how that's going to affect things.

It's all very, very complicated, for sure. This is not simple stuff by any means, and it even gets, you know, trade is complicated enough. But you want to start talking about foreign policy in terms of, you know, war and peace, and that gets incredibly, insanely complicated. But you know, just to comment on your point, Pat, about giving to other countries, a lot of it becomes like, you know, you support someone and then they become your enemy later. This was true with Osama bin Laden, it was true with Saddam Hussein. And it just, it just always seems to happen. You all you need to do is wait 15 or 20 years and then that same group that you supported becomes your enemy because they've got your technology, your arms, your money, you know, and it's just ridiculous. But speaking of giving, you know, and most people probably are going to totally miss this one but Obama quietly sent $221 million to the Palestinian Authority just hours before leaving office.

That was a business day of leaving office. Yeah, I saw that.

That was a Business Insider article. And, and believe me, Business Insider likes Obama and hates Trump, at least the way I read it, because they are extremely critical of Trump, and I didn't think they were very critical of Obama at all. So they're, you know, seemingly very left leaning. But, yeah, they sent, you know, he's, and, you know, you could call the Palestinian Authority terrorist organization, you know, one man, but then again, you know, you can say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. And I totally get that this is very complicated stuff, but it's just important that people know Obama sent a quarter of a billion dollars to the Palestinian Authority just a couple hours before he, you know, walked out of the White House. It's amazing.

Well, it's going to be a very, you know, if you look just at the spectrum of how, you know, the presidencies have been running, the.

It's gonna be completely opposite. And I, you know, from a Trump standpoint, I think that if people read his books, specifically the Art of the Deal, they'll see, I mean, the evidence is all there as to why he says what he says, why he's doing what he's doing, and really the intention behind all of his actions. And that's why I think that from a business standpoint, he's making the right call. But, you know, from my perspective, you know, if this was a clean slate, you know, a blank canvas, it's one thing. But, you know, he's now dealing with eight years, two terms of policies that he really didn't support any of. You know, he didn't support any of those policies. So now he's, you know, you have unwinding, you have. It's just, it's going to be fascinating to see how he deals with it because he understands business, he understands getting the right people around him. And I think he's doing that now. It's, I don't know. Now it's looking at the result. What's the result going to be of, you know, what he's instituting? It's going to be, it's going to be a fascinating, fascinating couple years.

This. It's hard for me to say I really support Trump in a lot of ways, but in some ways I do. But, you know, he is such an oddball, he's such a wild card in terms of our history that we really have to just Wait the first hundred days, right, to see what happens, because this is going to be unlike any other presidency. Let's just hope we get the chance to see those first hundred days because, you know, Madonna says she wants to blow up the White House. Now, I hope the Secret Service arrests her for that because, you know, that's illegal to threaten the President's life. But these, these are the tolerant people, right?

Well, it's interesting, Jason and I, you know, so last night when I went home, you know, I have a, I have a 12 year old, you know, Hannah, but my 12 year old daughter, you know, she starts, you know, we have a very, you know, a very detailed conversation about Trump. And you know, Hannah, she goes to a public, public school, but a lot of what the teachers are saying and a lot of what the parents are saying is very anti Trump. And so we just had a very, and I've had this on a lot of topics with her, but we had a frank conversation about why people feel that way about him. Now, there's things I like about Trump, there's things I don't. I didn't vote for him. And so I look at, you know, what I talked to her about, and it was more of how do you analyze a situation? How do you analyze a person? And really, you know, everything was about just these kind of misnomers and these kind of false things that people look at Trump and come to a conclusion about and then emotionally react. And now you have these insane protests and marches and gatherings where they don't really know what they're doing and why they're doing it. Does that make sense? And I love to see your take on that because there's just been this overwhelming animosity toward him.

Yeah, it's really amazing. I mean, two of my friends, who, I had a few friends at the inauguration and, and also at the march in Washington, and two of my friends sent me videos where they walked up to people, just turned on their camera and their smartphone, walked up to people and videotaped asking them why they were there. And one guy, you know, just by asking the question, he got this very hostile, threatening response, like the crowd was gonna just kill him. I mean, it was unbelievable to see that. And then the other one, a couple of the people he went up to, they didn't know. They just said they wanted to be part of something basically, that was like the, the overriding theme of these people. They, they really just, you know, they were, they were there for women's rights, but they didn't know which rights or what Trump was doing to hurt women, or. They couldn't explain it at all. It was shocking. Now, listen, in all fairness, some people did know why they were there, and they, they had a reason to be there. And, you know, whatever the reason was, they, they knew it. But a lot of people are just like these lost souls looking for a ca. Great point. It's crazy. It really is. Well, Pat, just sum it all up and let's move on. You know, sum it all up with what, what do you think is going to happen with the economy, the real estate market, you know, any, any thoughts?

Well, the crystal ball in front of me, you know, it, I'm just, I don't have a crystal ball. But I look at, you know, my thing is I, you know, I look at him from a business standpoint and I know exactly what he's trying, trying to do. And, and really, I would say it's for a business person that's, the options are very limited. So what he's doing, I think right now are the right things. I just think he's really creating some momentum up against a lot of resistance, and that resistance is $20 trillion of deficit, even more of unfunded liabilities, plus.

Half a trillion dollars of overspending per year. So you look at what he's going up against, that's what I'm to see as, you know, his. Is it going to make a difference? Where it's going to actually get us back on the right track and there's just a lot of ground to make up. But I really do think that when people have more money in their pockets, they think differently, they're more optimistic, they're more positive. And so hopefully that helps from a consumer sentiment standpoint. But really looking at how the other aspects of the economy are going to affect his initiatives, that's where it's a, it could go so many different directions. But remember, Jason, he did say in a few different audio blips during his campaign that he was open to bankrupting or renegotiating debt or doing something like that, which I think is, I think that's interesting. And I don't think Trump says things without really understanding the intention behind it. So I think he has been thinking about what to do with the debt. So I'm very curious to see how he deals with that. The, you know, when. The, you know, when that comes due. So.

Because it's going to be. Wouldn't that be great if the country could just declare bankruptcy and have a whole reset and start over? Awesome.

Well, I mean, I would say is there another way? I mean, you can, you can print ourselves to oblivion and you know, keep using the Federal Reserve in that monetary policy do. But the other other is just renegotiate. Renegotiate and default. Right. Which they're going to call something different. But when that happens, I mean it's going to be, that's going to be, be an interesting, interesting series of events. But anyway, that's, that's kind of what I think is, I think he's on the right track. I think it's going to be, you know, it's going to be a good kind of stimulus or, you know, injection of adrenaline in the beginning and hopefully that carries, carries through.

Yeah, we shall see. We shall see. It's going to be really fascinating to watch this. Well, Pat, tell our listeners a little bit about what you do and especially how it could be used for real estate investing. I'm a client of yours, Gary Pinkerton, who's in our Venture alliance and you also joined our Venture Alliance Mastermind Group recently. You know, it's been really enlightening to learn from both of you about some really creative techniques that you can use to, you know, increase your financial wealth, protect assets and also, you know, especially use that in a real estate investor context.

Well, so looking at what Paradigm Life does, we are, we have about 45 employees, 30, 30 advisors and we do just financial consultations. And so we're insurance based financial advisors. But looking at really one aspect of the business, it is working with real estate investors and business owners. Now we're different because we, you know, we use insurance products, we don't use Wall street based products for financial planning, savings, preparing for retirement, et cetera. And the reason why, you know, it works so well with real estate is because you're not choosing between doing our program and strategy and investing in real estate. So looking at what initially attracted me to the whole strategy in general was at the time I had property, I had a couple rental properties and that is the, that's the direction I wanted to go as far as my finances were concerned. And I met a woman who, her name is Kim Butler and she was one of the original Rich dad advisors. And she taught me her strategy, she taught me how it worked and why it's different than in the mainstream. And so today.

We just teach individuals how to use these products to improve their family, to improve their business and really just replace what they were using, a 401k or an IRA or some sort of Wall street based product or strategy. To accomplish. But then for business owner and the real estate investor, really how it works is similar to how most.

Executive retirement packages work. And that's what's fascinating is that you have these huge corporations, huge bank executives that you would think are set up for retirement through a 401k and market based investing, but they're not. Most of their retirement packages are all set up through the exact products that we use, but yet they're paid for by essentially their employees. And Wall street kind of creating this idea of raising capital through stock and offerings and then mutual funds and then packaging those mutual funds around a 401 and IRA. I mean you have this whole kind of charade that helps fund these very rich, luxurious benefit packages of executives. So the more I've read and learned about that, the more we've incorporated those aspects into our strategy so that the mainstre person that is, you know, maybe low six figure income can take advantage of some of the same benefits which you know, in my opinion are on par with any type of projection that a traditional financial planner gives you. But in the end, I mean I'm, I've owned several of your properties and I've, I have a number of others. My whole financial plan for me personally and for my family is all business, business our insurance products and real estate investments. So essentially we're just doing what I do, what I learned from.

Proven track records of the past and today it's working out really, really well. But at the same time the market hitting all time highs doesn't help us because it creates that feeling of euphoria on investors. But looking at the past and the history of market cycles, once we do correct again, that's when people will see the, especially our clients will see the tremendous value that it has.

Well, that's the problem with the market hitting all time highs. Most people that are bummed out about that, you know, it's already happened and a lot of that's priced into the market and now you're at a more dangerous point with more risk and more volatility. The, you know, when, when that happens. So you know, that's it's, it's that double edged sword. But when you mention that it doesn't help you, you, it's because that's, you know, money flows in there because it's like the drunk guy who can't get enough or the gambler who can't get enough, right? They just, you know, they just look at this speculative, it'll go on forever. You know, I remember that it was like the famous story about John D. Rockefeller right before the Great Depression, he knew the market was overvalued when his shoeshine boy was giving him stock tips or something like that. I don't know, I may have slightly mangled that story, but.

Well, it's how people, it's how people view the world. I mean you have, you have those that view the world from a rational standpoint and then from an emotional standpoint. And I think, you know, looking at, when it comes to money, it's very short term and when it's growing and gaining, you know, that right there is such a, it's a very short, short lived part of a market cycle. That's typically what people focus on. And so once it corrects, that's when, you know, usually people will step and start to rationally analyze what they're doing and why they're doing it and what happened. So right now it's like people are in that kind of buzz of earning really good returns and the market is at highs, their balances are growing. And that right there is, you know, most people do not make significant changes at that level. The changes are typically made at the bottom. And that's why, you know, you buy low, sell high, but everybody buys high and sells low. And that's just the nature of the, you know, uneducated emotional investor.

That is the way it always seems to work for the small investor, the institutionals, you know, the institutional investors don't necessarily have that because to some extent they control the markets. Right. But they also have just better research and you know, theoretically a less emotional angle on investing. So yeah, you know, most people get in at that really frothy stage when they've heard lots of stories for the past few years about people making fortunes and then, you know, the market corrects and they lose and then they, they hold on down as that, that slope goes down. I almost wish I could really show a graph to explain this, but a lot of our listeners have seen it and as that, as that slope goes down then they, they, they keep holding on. They keep holding on and they think, oh, it'll change, it'll come back, back. And then they finally sell at a low point in the trough because they just can't hold on any longer. And they, they, you know, they need access to whatever capital is left over. And the nice thing about income property is that because it's multi dimensional, you can keep adjusting your strategy. That's one of the things we talked about at the, over the weekend. But can you share just as as we wrap it up here, you know, any quick example that you want to give before you go on how this works? Maybe a little more mechanically.

Sure, yeah. And obviously visuals always help here, but I think you said you were gonna put some links in the show notes because a lot of our education is free. It's online. You can learn about it without really any obligation. But from a mechanical standpoint, I'll look at it from a real estate perspective and I'll just use me as an example. Each year I have 20, 20 policies, just because, you know, of how you fund them and some of the IRS restrictions because there's a tax benefit to having them. But as I do that every single year, it typically is a function of my income. So a percentage of my income. And then I, you know, reserve a certain amount for, you know, rainy day, for overhead for the business, and then the differential between what I have and that reserve amount that goes into kind of my opportunity fund. And I hold them all inside of the equity of these insurance policies. So inside the insurance policies, the money is private. It grows tax free.

It's not correlated to the market. And then looking at the biggest benefit, in my opinion, is the fact that the insurance company gives you a line of credit against it. So what I do is I essentially look for opportunities. And I've participated in a lot of syndications recently I purchased some of your properties. So how that goes down is I'll basically take a loan from one of these policies or across a couple of the policies, and I'll go and acquire a piece of real estate or put money into an investment. And then as those investments pay out, as opposed to depositing that money in a bank account, I'll take it and then I'll pay back the loan that I took out against it. So it helps kind of with the, the expenses associated with the return. So it helps from a tax standpoint, but also the entire balance of whatever I put into this piece of property through that loan, that whole balance is still in that equity or cash and earning a tax free return. So essentially my money is able to do two jobs at the same time. But in the mechanics of it all, what helps me is it keeps me disciplined. It keeps me disciplined to keep putting money aside every single year. And it also keeps me disciplined to make sure that I make the right investment. I do the proper due diligence. Because if I take a loan to acquire this investment or acquire this property, that loan, even if the property or the investment goes defunct, I'm still on the hook to pay back this loan. So it helps me really assess the property differently. And then when I do receive any type of return, as opposed to, you know, buying a, you know, going on vacation or buying a car or you're doing something consumptive, which I'm not saying is bad, but as it pertains to the actual investment, it keeps me disciplined to take those returns and pay down this line of credit which I can then take out again and use to acquire other investments. But again, it gives me some order and structure as to how I manage my finances. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And you know, that's an interesting thing you point out out at the very worst and you know it's much better than this. But like at the very least, at the very worst case scenario, the one thing that is really great about income, property as an investment, and as you were comparing it to yours, it's, that's also true with yours. It's a forced savings program because it, it, you know, it's not really very easy to access the cash in your real estate, the equity in your real estate. I mean you, you can certainly refinance pants. During the crazy boom time before there was a bust, they were giving out ATM cards based on home equity. And I thought, oh my God, we're definitely at a peak here. You know, when that kind of stuff happens and that product may by the way, still be out there, but it's really just against a pre established home equity line. But you know, it's. And people don't think of it as available capital, really, a lot of people don't. So it's nice because it's sort of tucked away and you know that that is a good wholesome discipline at the very least. And you know, there's so many things that are so much better about it. But I just wanted to point that out. So I like that comparison. That's good.

Well, it helps. It's like an, it's the irrational barrier. Right. So it's you, you have to actually do quite a bit and wait. Which you know, that time helps you rationalize the decision. And typically, you know, if you do have an immediacy of access, your irrational side of things could grab that without really thinking through it and make the wrong decision.

Right, absolutely. And that's what happens to all the stock traders and the gamblers and all of that stuff. So. Good, good point, Pat. Give out your website.

So our website's paradigmlife.net P A R A D I G M l I f e.net and on there we have our learning portals, which are free to access, so they're pretty easy to find through the web website.

And just to make it a little easier, I'll pronounce it. It's Paradigm.

Paradigm life dot net. That's not a dot com, that's a dot net. So, Pat, thank you for sharing the paradigm with us and we'll have you back on the show as things evolve in the economy and look forward to hearing more. And I guess I will see you in Las Vegas in March at our next Venture Alliance Mastermind meeting. Oh, gosh, there's so much to do in Vegas. It's really hard. We always do a couple fun activities and on this one we are really struggling with, you know, which one to pick. There's so much to do here. So I'll look forward to seeing you in March. Okay.

No, same with me, Jason. Thanks for having me on. And yeah, I look forward to Venture alliance in March.

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