CW 827 - Client Case Study Elisabeth Embry 53 Properties, Cash-on-Cash Return, Seattle Market, Risk Reduction, Linear Markets, Women Investing & Trump Haters

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Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your Financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

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Welcome to the Creating Wealth show, episode number 827. 827. Thank you so much for joining me today. This is your host, Jason Hartman and I've got a returning guest with me today and that is our client and Venture alliance member Elizabeth. And maybe we'll talk about a little client case study with her again. We did one on that before, but really we want to talk about some other things as well as the new podcast that Elizabeth is co hosting with me. Elizabeth, welcome back. How are you?

I'm terrific, Jason, thank you.

Good, good. It's good to have you. So since I mentioned the new podcast, why don't we just get that out of the way, Mention it now and it's all about the win, right? W I n what does that stand for?

It's the Women Investing Network and I couldn't be more excited. We're helping women win in investing and in life. The types of guests that we have are focus on strengths and strategies around career, care, corporate entrepreneur, business, family, communication, health, wellness, longevity. There's a wide variety of things but also there's the element of real estate investing that is the cornerstone of the show. And, and it's, it's turning out really well. I'm super excited about it.

Good stuff. Good to hear. And by the way, I didn't mention you are coming to us today from beautiful Seattle in the Pacific Northwest. So I just wanted to make sure our listeners knew that.

You say beautiful, but we're going between. We're vacillating between downpours and sunny skies, so.

Oh, well, when it's, when it's sunny, Seattle's beautiful. Of course. You and your husband Neil were kind enough to co host us when we brought the Venture alliance mastermind to Seattle. That was, what, three trips ago? They're all running together now. We've done so many trips together.

I know, and there was so much fun. But, you know, that trip was great because we really lucked out with kind of perfect skies in later September or early September, rather.

Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Really nice. Good stuff. Well. Good stuff. Well, hey, Elizabeth, we want to dive into a few topics today. You know that last week I discussed crap rate on the show. And, and it's not really that bad. I just kind of thought of that off the top of my head there. And what I meant by that is not crap rate, but cap rate. Okay. And how cap rate is not a very good metric. Again, it's used a lot in commercial real estate, but it really shouldn't be used in residential that much because it doesn't tell the whole story. And we want to know more. We want to tell a more complete story when we talk about real estate investing. And today, why don't we talk a little bit about a better metric than crap rate or cap rate, and that is cash on cash return. Although that doesn't really tell the full story either. But I think it's a little better than cap rate. But, you know, talk to us about that, if you would, because you discussed this on the Wind show, and so that's why I wanted to bring it up.

Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because everybody, every time I interact with a different provider, a different, you know, real estate group, a different finance group, they always calculate everything differently. And so one of the things that I really like is in your property tracker tool, you've got the, in the pro forma, you've got a very consistent way of showing the cash on cash return. And so for me, cash on cash return is a great way of, at a glance, determining if this is the good next potential investment for you. So it's the cash on cash return is a calculation of all of your expenses and the, that generate the actual cash flow that you're going to get and divide that by the initial years, all in monies. And so, so that includes not only the amount of money that you're putting down, but the money that you're, that you're using as you're closing to get the total number, what is that? The numerator or the denominator? The money, the number that you're dividing and then the cash flow that you're getting. You need to be thinking about not only the, the rent that you're going to be getting, but you need to be thinking about your vacancy rate. You also need to be thinking about your, your expenses, such as your property management expenses and your maintenance fees and your insurance and your taxes. And that generates your all in operating net profit.

Okay? So here's the thing about cash on cash return. If the property goes down in value, which I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon given the market conditions. They're just nuts. But you know, hey, there are cycles, right? But again, we're, we're into the linear markets where you don't have those big swings, but you do have a little minor swings, not versus the cyclical markets where they really do swing and it can get really ugly. So if the, if the value of the property goes down but you as the investor are able to maintain the same income and expense ratio, then your cash on cash return will be consistent. Okay. Sometimes in a down market, the value can actually decline. But as I talk about in the three dimensions of real estate concept, which we've done on many other shows, the rents will actually increase because the people are not going, you know, motivated, the renters are not motivated to jump into the housing market when prices are going down, which actually they ought to be contrarians. And that's exactly what they probably should do at that time. Right? But they don't. So you can actually see the rental market strengthen as you see prices drop. So your cash on cash return could get better in a down market and so could your cap rate basically too. And that's the interesting thing. It doesn't include appreciation. Okay. And, but it does include leverage. Cap rate doesn't include leverage. Right. Yeah. Okay, so what else do you, what, what metric do you like to go by and, and why?

Well, for me, I like to look at because I'm, I'm lucky enough, I guess that I, that I no longer can get Fannie Mae loans. And so I'm having to do commercial lending and so I'm just looking for what the actual percentage of cash flow that I'm going to be getting over my mortgage. And so I don't know what you would call that, but basically what's my net, what's my net cash flow compared to the total price? And so I don't know if that's a specific calculation, but I, but I, I have a, literally a 46 column spreadsheet that I do to track to not only look at opportunities, but track how my properties are flowing. And, and so really I'm looking for cash flow over total money outlayed, but not in year one. I'm looking at the actuals that I'm getting after there's a true pattern established. And so for me that first year, it's anybody's guess, it's after I really seeing how the, the true track rate, if you will, of the properties are performing over years. And what I'm really surprised with is even though I'm buying in linear markets, Jason, you know, the appreciation in linear markets, you said in linear market there's a, there's a, there's a good deal of appreciation that I've been able to realize over the last, you know, since 2012 is really when I started investing, I think. And the amount of appreciation that I've been able to, to see, to see the true ROI is kind of exciting.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. It really is. Well, welcome to the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. That's income property, right? By the. How many properties do you have now, Elizabeth?

So we have 50. We've got another three coming online soon.

So you'll be up to 53, right?

That's correct. That's correct.

And actually we should say in the interest of full disclosure, we are on the verge of making you and a couple of other key people that some of our listeners know and they've heard on the show before, shareholders in the company, minority shareholders. So I know you're liquidating a couple of, of properties to do that deal, right?

That's correct. That's the correct. And that's what's, See, that's what's really cool about this portfolio. It's. Even though I've only had it for a short period of time and this is why I'm so intimately familiar with the amount of appreciation that's, that's occurred, I can actually liquidate. And even though, you know, normally when you sell a property you go, oh gosh, you know, I'm gonna have to pay closing costs. I'm having to pay, you know, back the tax, some of the tax depreciation that I was able to write off before. I'm having to, you know, pay fees to fix it up. And, but even so, the portfolio has performed well enough that the, for the properties that I'm selling, you know, I'm able to retain just a chunk of money beyond my initial investment. So I'm pretty excited about that and I'm excited about the opportunity of, you know, becoming a shareholder in this company because it's, you know, it's obviously a great company. I, I think quite highly of it and it's, it's done well by me for sure.

Yeah, good, good stuff. Well, we appreciate your business and appreciate you being a client and appreciate you being a venture alliance member and the guest on the, on the show today as well. So that was interesting about, about the cash on cash return, folks. I think that is a better metric than cap rate. But again, the metric I favor is just the overall return on investment. So I like looking at the rent to value ratio. That's my quick rule of thumb as I go in, you know, am I getting that 1% rent to value ratio? Boom. Did I get it okay? Or somewhere in that neighborhood. That's the first, that's the first cut. And then just looking as you look@jason hartman.com and you click on the property section, you can see those performas and the overall return on investment. The projected overall return on investment is in bold because I think that is the most accurate thing. And as I mentioned on last week's show when I went off on my rant about crap rent rate, you know, I talked about how even that overall return on investment does not include some very significant benefits. So it's really potentially much higher than that. And what I said back then, just to refresh your memories because it's been a week, is I said that it doesn't include the advantage of owning and rebalancing that portfolio over the course of your life so that you can do a 1031 tax deferred exchange and rent, reinvest all of those dollars, not the post tax dollars, not paying Uncle Sam, not paying the government. First you get to reinvest it all. You don't get to do that with stocks, with businesses, with bonds, with anything else. It's special in real estate or income property. Now actually, I shouldn't say you don't get to do it with anything else. That's actually not true. There are some 1031 exchange opportunities with things like airplanes. But the problem is those actually really do depreciate your real estate, hopefully appreciate. So, you know, you, you have depreciation there and it's real in the real estate, you know, it's hopefully not real. And then also I think you can do it with cattle and stuff like that, but I don't own any cattle, so, you know, I don't know about cows and stuff like that, so.

That's funny.

Yeah. But anyway, that's that. Okay, so let's talk about a couple of other things. So first of all, I wanted to ask you, Elizabeth, about just kind of generally, you know, and I got to say this, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit here. When Trump won, you were bummed out. I mean, you were bummed. Elizabeth is like one of my liberal friends, okay? And she, she has said she's given it up and now she's a libertarian. So welcome to the Libertarian Party, Elizabeth.

Thank, thank you, Jason. And thank you for putting me on the spot for.

Yes, I'm, I am. You didn't know I was going to bring this up, did you? Okay, but, but I wanted to ask you because, you know, you were just like devastated when Trump won. I know you're not a fan and I'm. The jury's out for me, honestly, I know people probably think I'm a Trump fan, but that guy worries me. He's reckless, okay. And yeah, you know, he could start World War 3 on his frickin Twitter account. Okay. I don't know about him.

Literally. Literally.

Yeah. The jury is out on Trump if you ask me. You know, whatever.

Although I'm slightly encouraged by the tax. Now, I haven't seen any details yet, but you know, the conversations around the tax laws that he's talking about, they potentially could be really beneficial for phenomenal.

If, if the tax rate for small companies goes from 39% to 15%. Oh my God. Do you know what's gonna happen? It's gonna be insane. What? All going to live in Utopia.

Well, I don't know about Utopia. Welcome to Eden. But certainly companies can put more money into R and D. They can afford to hire more people and take bigger risks. And I think that that's the bigger risk in the R and D parts I think are the most exciting for me because that's when we're going to get true innovation starting to occur. Right now people are having to, you know, because they're giving away 35, 40% of their money to, you know, to taxes. Right. So they have, they have to be really conservative about the decisions that they're making, even for large corporations. But you know, you get 20% back and all of a sudden now you have the money to really start expanding. People, you know, on the more liberal side of things might be going, oh, they're just going to, you know, stockpile all their profits. Companies don't actually work on just stockpiling profits, although Apple might be the exception to that. Right. They're sitting on a lot of cash. But most companies actually need, want and need to spend the large portion of their monies in R D so that they can determine what is going to be the next product that's going to.

Just really hit thing that might change the world. Right? Yeah, yeah. There's no question that, look, you know, it's always a decision of you give it to the, the entrepreneurs, the citizens, the people, or you give it to the government. And who do you think is going to manage that money better? Well, I think we all know, regardless of what side of the political aisle we're on, you know, that individuals, individual people and individual businesses are probably going to manage it better. Not always, but you know, it's, I just don't think, you know, sending that money to Washington D.C. is a, a very good way to go. And you know, people are saying, well, with it, with the Trump tax proposal, you know, it's going to increase the deficit now. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Maybe it will for a time and then it'll change. And of course this is the old Laffer curve, supply side economics, trickle down economics, Reaganomics type discussion, right. Of you know, increasing economic activity by lowering tax rates. And look at, even if it doesn't, I mean this may sound really irresponsible and kind of against my anti Keynesian philosophy, but you know what, even if we just run more deficits, it's like we are so beyond the beyond already with these, with, with deficits and debt in this country. As long as we can keep the biggest military in the world, the biggest brand, you know, and all the other advantages we have in the U.S. i think we're going to be fine. I mean, you know, it's like the question you always got to ask yourself is compared to what? I mean, America, yeah, it's all messed up and we're running it into the ground, but compared to what? It's all just a game of relativity. It's, it's not. It. There's no absolute in this there's only a comparison of, here's the US versus country A, B, C, D. And I think, you know, the US is going to keep its reserve currency status for a long, long time and probably prosper for a long, long time. So I'm not that overly concerned about deficits and I normally wouldn't say that, but it's only because we're so beyond ridiculous already that there's no way we can pay it back. We're just gonna have to inflate our way out of it. You know, it's, it's the way it's going to be.

Well, and I think the point that you're bringing up is you've got to work within the process in order to change the process and in order for you to, to, to realize traction, if you will. And so taking advantage of real estate tax opportunities makes real estate the right income that drives the action for people to invest more in real estate, which then provides housing for, you know, for a very large population. Right.

Then that is why it is the sacred cow of the tax code. People are worried that, you know, under every new administration. Right, you know, well, they might. What if they take this benefit away or that benefit away? I guarantee you. Well, I can't guarantee that you this, but I bet you. I won't guarantee you, but I will bet you that even if they take one perk away in real estate tax code, they will add another and you know, say for example, 10:31 exchange goes away. Okay, well, there will be an adjustment in the market for, for that. Right. Everything equalizes. It does take a few years for it to happen though. That's the part that kills people. But I bet they'll give us something else. I mean, look, if they took the 1031 tax deferred exchange away and lowered the mortgage interest deduction for homeowners, hey, I would love it, Elizabeth, if they would take away the mortgage deduction for homeowners because that would make them all much more likely to rent. And guess what, I'm a landlord, so that's fine with me. You see things always equalize, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

So, but what is your, the thing I was, I was bugging you about like being bummed out about the Trump win. But what is your sentiment now, if I can ask you? Because, you know, you were pretty like gloomy there for a couple of months.

I'd say, I would actually say I was going through a true depression, much like must much of the country and not necessarily like you, like many of your closest friends. Right.

Well, you. And I realize you have a lot. A lot of friends on both sides of the aisle, so that's not necessarily a fair statement. But, you know, there was the fear of the unknown, right? There was a lot of the fear of the unknown. And quite frankly, the rhetoric that. That trumpet, to a lesser degree, Pence, you know, spewed during. Or. Sorry. Communicated during the campaign.

Spewed. Spewed is okay.

You know, honestly, it was. It was really scary. And I think that every. As Trump. I don't know what the quote was the other day. It was something like. I didn't realize it was going to be this hard.

Right, right. He's getting. You know what's interesting about Trump here, You've got the guy with possibly the biggest ego on the planet, right? Donald Trump, and, you know, he's kind of getting a little humble. I think this is good for him.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, honestly, with Kellyanne Conway and.

And what's the Nazi guy, o', Bannon.

He'S stepping away a little bit.

Oh, my God, people. You heard that, right?

Nazi guy. Yeah.

You know, the thing is, what I'm really, what I believe is Trump is realizing that the job is a lot harder than he thought, even if with the whole, you know, House and Senate on his side, in theory, you know, he's realizing that politics are a little more challenging than he expected them to be. I think that he's still trying to drive forward his promises.

And for me, I'm not seeing a whole lot of traction on the good ones or the bad ones. I'm. I'm honestly hopeful about the tax promise, but the rest of them about, you know, put up a wall immediately. There's these. All of these. These lawsuits that are getting thrown up. And I find it.

This is the thing, folks. Isn't it great? I mean, you know, a couple great things about it. Elizabeth, this is a bit of a tangent, so please hold your thought there. Remember what you were going to say. But, you know, the first thing, and I said this at the Meet the Masters event, and of course you were there. That was what I started with, is it is so inspiring, really, to see, regardless of your political spectrum and your beliefs, to see Trump and Obama walking together, you know, during the inauguration and, you know, Trump waving Obama off in the helicopter and so forth. I mean, the orderly transfer of power. We should all be so grateful that we, you know, if we live in a Western country, right, where you have that, you should all be so grateful that there's no military couple There. No, there's no bloodshed. You know, it's all just. That's just so impressive. And then the other part of it is that, you know, even with Trump's rhetoric and all the stuff that you didn't like, okay, and many people didn't like, about half the country, it's about equal. About half the country hated him, half the country loved him, or at least liked him enough to vote for him. You know, he can't get it. He can't. He's not a dictator. Okay. You know, we've got three branches of government. We've got all kinds of people people have to be accountable to. You can't just do what he wants, which is good.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was surprised at how quickly they. They pulled out the vp breaking the ties and, you know, the nuclear option when it came to the Supreme Court. But even so, things are moving a lot slower than he'd expected, which gives me hope. And the reason why it gives me hope is it's. It's giving him time to reflect and really understand. So, yes, people wanted to vote an outsider in. They wanted to change the system, but you have to understand the system enough in order to change it. And so now he's getting some, you know, some learnings, you know, some opportunity to, To. To figure it out. Hopefully he'll be, you know, smarter, wiser through the end. Like, let's face it, the guy's a great business. Business person. Like, no matter how much support, how many people have really authored, you know, or been the ghost writer for, you know, his books or what have you, he's been smart enough to get this far in business at this point. And so I'm sure he's going to have to. He realizes he's got to adjust, change, that political leaders are different than business leaders. And so I'm encouraged. And like you said, the system is there to honestly, to keep him in check.

He can't just do what he wants.

And honestly to keep status quo, too. Right. So the, the rule of imminent domain, you know, where people want to bust up the land between Mexico and Texas or Mexico and California, what have you, you know, all those landowners are immediately throwing up red flags and saying, absolutely not. Right. And so it's that very long legal process, you know, that we're going to be speaking about 25 years from now before that wall gets built.

Possibly. Possibly, yeah. Interesting stuff. Interesting stuff. Okay, so that's just an interesting whole thing about the Trump perspective. But, I mean, are you optimistic now? I mean, do you see that like the real estate market, the economy, they're just booming. I mean, it's insane what's going on. Like, I'm just super optimistic about the Trump economy. You know, I'm not.

So. Jason. Yeah. Counterpoint. I'm very optimistic that the, that the positive direction that Obama.

You'Re giving Obama all the credit.

Oh my God. We're continuing. But I mean, let's face it, Seattle has been on a massive upswing even in 2008 where we had a sharp decline from a housing market. Right. It's, it's started to push again through the roof and it's gone well past its 2008 norms in the housing markets. I think that there's. The last report I saw, there was 60 major cranes, you know, like, like large scale development cranes employed in the US right now. 32 of them are in the Seattle area. Wow. I know. Is that crazy? Yeah.

Whenever you, whenever you go to a place where the national bird is a crane, okay. That is the sign that a bubble is coming. I don't know exactly when it'll be there, but you know, it's just, there's like too much development. Right. There's just this overbuilding and you just know it all. It always goes in that cycle. So you are probably selling your personal residence at the right time in Seattle or I don't know, maybe you'll be a year too early. But at some level, you know, that bubble is there, right?

Oh, absolutely. I mean for, for me, I'm, I'm fiscally conservative and, and now's the right time. I, I've seen the 10 year cycles, you know, time and time again. Having worked in, you know, in banking at Washington Mutual before the, you know, the, the spike and the boom and the bust and you know, having been in the Seattle area since the late 80s and you know, it's coming now, how is that going to play out with the rest of the rest of the nation? I don't know. Something interesting. Part of the reason why the Seattle market is so pushed up is because the Chinese investor is getting pushed out of, out of Canada. They're getting an increased tax.

Vancouver was a big, is a big Chinese market, but what's going on with the increased tax? What were you going to say there?

Oh, yeah, so, so in Canada they're, they are, they agreed to implement or they're talking about implementing an additional 15 tax for out of country investors in like Vancouver and Victoria, which means that that Chinese investor will really shift even more so from that expensive market. Where they're all, they're, they're taking massive hits from their profit and deploying that more into the U.S. yeah, yeah.

That's going to cause a fall, a money flight out of Canada. No question about that.

Well, and this is why people ask me, well, why don't I invest locally? Why am I not a local landlord? And the reality is my cash flow is so much higher, my exposure is so much lower.

Oh yeah.

When I invest in these linear markets, you know, through companies like you, right, where I'm getting a great, a great portfolio of opportunities at a great price, again using the 1% rent to value, looking at the cash on cash, but really calculating the overarching roi. And for me, also looking at the cash flow after all expenses to make sure that I can make a living. And I am. So it's good.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, when I talk about the risk evaluator model, which, by the way, you know, that's always something good to review. Go to Jason hartman.com and type in Hartman Risk Evaluator and listen to some of the podcasts I've done on that topic. But it's just amazing how much lower the risk is when you buy in these linear markets that are the, you know, the cash flow oriented, low land value. You know, in other words, they have good LTI or land to improvement ratios. Again, when you buy a property, two major components, one is the land, the other is the improvement or the house or the apartment building sitting on the land. Right. So, so LTI meaning land to improvement ratio. I coined that term kind of dovetailing on the concept of ltv loan to value ratio that most people have heard of. And it's amazing. If you look at like your place in Seattle, your personal residence, by the way, do you know offhand or can you just calculate it real quickly while I'm yapping what the cost per square foot is at your list price, Elizabeth?

Sure, sure. Oh yeah, I'll calculate it because I don't know, I mean, we're not. So it's not on the market yet, so it's not set.

But yeah, I know, but just at the price you're going to list it out. And, and so you, you really see that your risk is so much lower investing in these good, solid linear markets we recommend. And you can see all those markets@jason hartman.com click on properties and you'll see the eight or so markets that were mostly active in. We do have some other markets we do a little bit of business in, but those I think eight or nine that you see there are the most active right now. And it's really hard to lose your shirt in those markets if. If the trend reverses and things go the other way. For two reasons, you know, this is all about sustainable investing. Not just one reason, but two reasons. The first one being the LTI ratio being very flat, favorable land to improvement ratio. When that construction cost is high as a ratio to the land value, that puts a floor on any potential losses. It's like a stop loss, if you will, right in the stock market. A stop loss. And then the other part of it is that the cash flow is so good that even if the property goes down in value, you know, you can just maintain it. You can. You're never in a position, hopefully, where you're ever forced to sell a property at the wrong time. That's what sustainable investing is all about. My philosophy of sustainable investing, never be forced to sell a property at an inopportune time. Did you have that square footage?

Yeah, it's depending on how we price it, between probably like 265 to 300.

Yeah. Per square foot. Okay. So your house, to rebuild your house. Now, it would be more expensive in Seattle. I would venture to guess that the cost of construction to rebuild your house would be somewhere around $125 a foot in Seattle. So you can see that you've got a lot of land value in that property. Okay. Yeah, you're. That is not a good market to be in.

Well, you know, quite frankly, the market is appreciating 1% per month.

That's insane. That's. Yeah.

And so I'm calculating now my Memphis, one of my Memphis properties.

So you've got properties in Memphis, Indianapolis. I think you have Atlanta too, right?

60, $62.

Isn't that incredible? That's a.

And that's a Memphis, you know.

You like.

Yeah, Memphis property. And again, it's the replacement property, the replace, the replacement. Cost of materials. It's pretty static. It's the labor that really, I think, drives a lot of that fluctuation.

Okay, so. So you've got the Seattle property at $300 a square foot. You've got the Memphis property at $62 per square foot. If that Memphis property burnt down today, it would probably cost you 75 or $80 per square foot to rebuild it. Okay. If the Seattle property burnt down, it costs you $125 to rebuild it. But you'd have, or, you know, somewhere in that ballpark, but you'd have an expensive lot and yeah, it folks, this philosophy makes sense. Invest in these boring linear markets that you don't hear about on the news. You know, all the, all the markets@jason hartman.com properties and you're, you're just much less volatility, much better cash flow and you can diversify geographically, be in several markets. So, Elizabeth, I think you and Neil are making a good, good decision selling your house. I hope it doesn't double in value after you sell it. Otherwise you're, then you're going to think, no, that wasn't so good.

But, well, you know, honestly, we could look at my, the price of my Amazon stock after I sold it, which is now, I think, almost a thousand dollars a share. So, you know you used to work.

At Amazon, by the way?

Yeah, yes, absolutely. I worked there for four years and I work there relatively early in the company's history. And I worked there for four years. I, what was your position at Amazon, by the way? So I was a senior manager for product and program management. So I worked in two different groups. And so I had a team of, gosh, I don't know, like 20ish people. And I, my first position I was in the ordering floor flow. I manage all of the programs. So basically the whole of the Amazon E commerce engine sat on the work that my team did.

For everything.

And the second position I had was in a, was in a product line. And it was, it was a fascinating role that I learned a lot, but it's.

The role today, I think would be equivalent of a director at most companies.

Good stuff. Good stuff. Yeah. So just wanted to kind of, I mean, your, your background's in tech and software and project management. And you know, you had a big team at T Mobile that you managed, what, a couple hundred people or something?

Yeah, yeah, about 200 people. And you know, it was funny because I think the stress was the same. There were very different types of stresses. You know, their products were, were really exciting at Amazon. I, I, I really enjoyed that time.

Good stuff. Well, hey, Elizabeth, we've got to wrap it up, but thank you for joining us today. And the Women Investing Network podcast is out there, so you can find it on itunes or any podcast platform. Just newly launched. Please go listen Rate review Subscribe to that show and of course to this show as well. And we will talk to you on the next episode.

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