CW 994 - The Self Management Revolution & How to Fix Affordable Housing with NHP Foundation's Richard Burns

Welcome to the Creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You're about to learn a new slant on investing, some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world's most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine, self made multimillionaire who's actually been there and done it. He's a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who's owned properties in 11 states, had hundreds of tenants, and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason's footsteps on the road to your financial Independence Day. You really can do it. And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Welcome listeners from 165 countries worldwide. This is your host, Jason Hartman. Thank you so much for joining me today and for me, well, I'm going to say happy Sunday, but you'll hear this episode on probably Monday if you're caught up and you're listening right away. Hey, we had a little problem with our itunes feed last week. Thank you listeners that reached out to me to tell me about this. I so appreciate that. And by the way, if you ever want to reach out to me about anything, just go to Jason hartman.com ask, criticize me, praise me, tell me how great the show is. I, I love to hear it ask a question. And I know, I know listeners, I'm behind on your questions. I get it. But you know what? It's not all about me. Of course. It's about our whole team. Well, it's really about you, obviously. But for answering your questions, it's about our whole team. Remember, when I get that question, our team gets it too. And your investment counselors many times answer those questions for you, even if they don't happen on the air or they happen on the air because kind of slowly. So we will get to them. We will get to them. And I very much appreciate you putting them out there. A lot of times questions are answered just in my monologue, in my talk because I read them all. They go into the processor between the ears here. And I admit it's not the fastest processor in the world, but it's not bad. It's not bad. It processes things and then you just kind of hear them come out in conversation. But hey, this week, wow, we are on the verge of a revolution, a revolution of good things happening this week. Wow. So the first one is the Self Management Revolution. The Self Management Revolution. One of our clients who has been on the show a few Times over the years. That is the young guy. Well, he's, he's not that young anymore, are you? I don't know, he's probably about 32 now. But he was on the show originally when he was like 26 or 7. I finally convinced him that that self management was the way to go. Self management. I'm telling you folks, there was this thing, remember, you know, 20ish years ago when the Internet was all the rage. Well, I guess it still is. But when the Internet was first the rage, right, There was this term you heard a lot, this word that you might have had to add to your vocabulary list at the time. You, you may have even looked it up, but you could even figure out what it means without looking it up. And the word is the word for the day from many years ago. We heard it a lot is disintermediation. Disintermediation. And boy, I tell you, if there is one place that that can happen in a beneficial manner, it is in the world of relationships between you. The property investor, the owner, the land baron, the landlord, and your tenant. Your customer. Your customer. Your tenant. Yes. Your tenant is your customer. Always remember that as an investor. But we got to put our mindset in the right place. A lot of investors don't look at it that way. They look at their tenant as a little childish, spoiled brat. And admittedly sometimes they are. And if you have employees, you may feel that way about them too sometimes. I know, but no, the tenant is our customer. Right? And so we want to make our customers happy, of course. And that's understanding that relationship. Sometimes when we stick that intermediary, that intermediary being the property manager in the middle of the equation, it's kind of like sticking the government in the middle of the equation, right where they don't belong. And a lot of times the disintermediation model just works better on so many levels. Now again, this is not for everyone. You gotta know what you're doing first. Get a little experience, cut your teeth, earn your keep, earn your stripes. But ultimately, I'm telling you, I think the self management thing is really, really something to consider. And remember, I don't recommend full self management like my mother, who you've heard on the show several times, my mom, the extreme do it yourselfer. If there was an extre extreme sport for diy, my mom might just win it. She is an extreme do it yourselfer. And at her age, that is pretty darn amazing. Kind of an amazing person. Anyway, the. Well, look, without me talking, I'LL just let you hear this little quip from the voxer chat. This is Drew's experience already. So here's what he said.

Oh my gosh, I'm so much happier now. I mean, maybe I'm in the euphoric stage here, but had a chance to talk to a couple of the tenants, sort out some issues and you know, this layer of bureaucracy between myself and the tenant, just being able to cut that out and just deal more directly with them and have some humanity to it just makes for just a much better relationship with the tenant. I've already sort of patched up a couple of inconsistencies between, you know, what's going on. Like I waited for a month to just have them fix some minor accounting issue, but they were getting nagged about being late every day when they weren't. It was just that they wouldn't fix a problem, you know, that was minor.

He means the property manager wouldn't fix the problem.

I'm thankful that you guys pushed me to do this. I think it's the right decision. And Jason, Yeah, it would be funny to have, if you want to have me on the podcast or have me and your mom on your podcast, we can flesh this out or whatever you want to do.

Okay, so there you go. See disintermediation, getting that property manager that is many times in the way out of the equation and dealing direct with the source, dealing direct with the tenant, dealing direct with the customer. Now listen folks, if you have a great property manager, they're worth their weight in gold. But I watch my mom do it versus the way I watch myself do it on my non self managed properties and the way I watch our clients who aren't self managing do it. And I just think that a whole layer of issues, frustrations, delays can be resolved when you don't have that intermediary in the middle. So the way, again I'll just suggest that you approach this equation is number one, you got to have a little bit of experience. So this is not for the newbies. Number two, you probably want to of course go to Jason hartman.com and type self management and make sure you listen to all of the podcasts I've done. And if you're not a member of the JHU online membership site, which you can join at Jason hartman.com where you hear those conference calls. In fact, I don't know, maybe we'll just take those conference calls to a podcast at some point. You know, listen to those, learn about it and remember the most dangerous time For a self manager or anybody, really, even if you're not self managing is when a property is vacant. So we recommend the hybrid approach. We recommend a la carte operation. Unbundled services from a property manager or a real estate agent, having them manage the lease up in the tenant turn. Okay, so more on that as things unfold. Lots of stuff on it on the past 993 episodes, of course, but I just wanted to share that with you. Now. What is the other big amazing thing that happened this week? Well, it hasn't happened yet completely, but it partially happened. Well, love him, hate him, spew the vile hatred at him. But I am going to give President Trump major credit for what's going on in North Korea. Make North Korea great again. Maybe it's going to happen. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe this whole thing is just a ploy. Maybe it's a shell game. Maybe Kim Jong Un will break his word to denuclearize. But let me tell you something. Peace through wimpiness never works in the international arena. The wimpiness doctrine of Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama. This doesn't work with tyrants. It doesn't work with scumbags in the business world either. It just doesn't work. You know, being reasonable and wimpy and just. It just doesn't work. Okay. You can only achieve some things through strength. You know, sometimes there's this great song. What is that? A Kenny Rogers song, right? It's called Coward of the County. You gotta look that song up. It's great. I love Kenny Rogers lyrics. I love singer songwriters, right? But hey, I Also Love and Ms. Already Avicii, who just passed away at age 28. If you're a fan of his great music, the Mozart of our era, I think I'll just put it out there. You miss Avicii, too. But anyway, Kenny Rogers. How much variety do I like in music, huh? Yes. Call me schizophrenic. Musically schizo. That's Jason Hartman, right? No. Kenny Rogers has this great song, Coward of the County. And you know, the whole story is about this kid who was really a wimp and a coward, and then one day he stood up and he fought for himself and his girlfriend. You know, sometimes the moral of the story is sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man, right? So that's the lyric. But man, woman, doesn't matter. It's just a metaphor. Feminists do not get all upset because the song lyric says man. Okay? Yeah. Geez, what a world we live in that you actually have to think like that, that you have to be concerned about saying something like that. It might offend someone. Oh, my God. Okay, yes, I know now half of you hate me. All right, so Freddie Mac. Freddie Mac, yes, the second largest mortgage agency, right? We got Fannie Mae, we got Freddie Mac. Well, they have launched a new program where you can put 3% down on a mortgage and there are no income restrictions whatsoever. Well, what could possibly go wrong with that? Yeah, right. I think. Haven't we been there and done that? I think we were there before. Now, look, I was at an economic forum the other day put on by a bunch of bankers and it was really fascinating. There were five economists that spoke there on the stock market level, the real estate level, the general level, the international level, etc. Etc. It was fascinating, fascinating event. I'm going to get a couple of those economists on the show because I really enjoyed their presentations. And let me tell you, folks, the outlook was extremely bullish. Only a couple of concerns on the horizon for the economy. Not much. Again, this is the Trump recovery. Hate him if you wish, but you gotta give them some credit where it's due. Okay, Listen, I don't like the guy that much either. I think he's seriously obnoxious. Okay, Obviously. But you know, let's separate the issues here. I mean, we're at basically full employment in pretty much everywhere in the country, okay? Everybody who wants to work can work. Now, I know, I know. I've told you before and I've had many guests talk about this over the years, about how the stats for unemployment are manipulated. Yes, they are. There's no question about that. But I'm just going with the official concept here, right, of that. And that's basically where we are, okay? The economy is on fire, en fuego. It is booming, all right? So you just can't deny that. And all of these economists that were talking about the real estate component said what I've said to you before, you know, just echoing what I've said, the banks have been pretty darn conservative this time around. There is no mortgage crisis. Not yet. Now maybe, maybe a new Freddie Mac program like this will be the entree. You see little inklings of it here and there where the lending is getting kind of, kind of crazy, right? You know, a 3% down program with no income restrictions. Right? Well, you know, that could be bad, but I'm sure there's credit restrictions and credit guidelines there. So again, by and large, there isn't a mortgage crisis waiting to happen. That's not going to be at this time, if there is a, another big collapse and a big great recession ahead, that's about all we got time for. I had a bunch more I wanted to talk to you about, but you know what? We got to get to our guest. We got to get to our guest, so let's do that. Let's talk about affordable housing with Richard Burns today. I hope you'll join me in Philadelphia. This event again. I thought this event would sell out like right away, but it's not for some reason. Maybe it won't sell out. I don't know. We're, you know, we're, we're not far off from selling out. We still got a few weeks to go. But hey, I hope you'll join us. Philadelphia, May 19th. It's going to be a fantastic Creating wealth event. We're adding the portfolio builder game to it. So if you've been to JHU Jason Hartman University and you played it there, this is the newest version of it. We keep making it better. You know, when you put people into groups and you never know what's going to happen, what they're going to come up with and throw at you, right. And how they're going to manipulate the game and do all that kind of stuff, right. So we keep improving the game, Right. And we are going to go with the newest version, improved from our Silicon Valley JHU event a few months ago. So we're going to play that during Creating wealth this time. We've never done that before, so that's going to be exciting. I will be in Philadelphia for a couple extra days on either side of this event. So if you're coming and you'd like to sit down with me personally and do a portfolio makeover, I'm happy to do that. Happy to sit down with you the day before the event on Friday or the day after the event on Sunday and do a little bit of that as well. So if you want it from, from me personally to investment counsel you, I'm gonna allot some time to do that during this event. Again, a lot of times when I do these events in and out of whatever city we're in. But on this one, it's kind of leisurely. I'm going up to New York on Tuesday with two people that are traveling with me to do our Mastermind, our Venture Alliance Mastermind event the following weekend, which is another great event you should attend. We're going to do some really cool stuff in New York. We've got a couple really cool speakers, we've got one of the attorneys who done a lot of the big major real estate deals in New York City. He is speaking to our group and that's going to be fascinating. We've got a blockchain media person speaking at the event as well. That's going to be quite fascinating. And then we've got one of our internal people speaking who you have not heard yet. That is Nate. He just came aboard with us and he is heading up an entirely new product line that we are going to be launching fairly soon. So stay tuned for that. I mentioned it to the Venture alliance people at the Ice Hotel in Sweden just a few weeks ago there. And so we'll be talking about that at the Venture Alliance Mastermind in New York City the weekend after Philadelphia. All right, folks, go to jason hartman.com to check out all of that. Click on events. And let's get to our guest and talk about affordable housing.

It's my pleasure to welcome Richard F. Burns. He's chief executive officer of the NHP Foundation, a nonprofit affordable housing developer and owner with over 6,000 units in 12 states and Washington, D.C. he's a real estate investment professional with over 40 years experience managing money for pension funds and other institutional investors, both domestic and foreign. Richard, welcome. How are you?

I'm great, thank you.

It's good to have you on. Thanks for joining us today. So, you know, affordable housing is a real quandary. I mean, that is just, you know, you see in these different markets around the country, around the world, so many people just being priced out of the homeownership game or even the home rentership game, I should say. What are some of the issues and problems and how can they be tackled?

You've got a couple of things going on simultaneously. One is you have an ever increasing demand. You know, I've been in real estate for a lot of years and in all my years in real estate, I've never seen the supply demand fundamentals like they are in affordable housing.

In other words, the supply so scarce and the demand so high, right?

That's right. And the supply isn't growing anywhere near past the to stay with the increase in demand. I think that one of the things that's difficult to build new housing is the cost of construction. And that's where really the only program that addresses that effectively is the Low Income Housing Tax Credit program. Another problem is that existing older, more affordable properties are either aging out of existence or they're being acquired by institutional investors, private equity managers who are upgrading these apartments to a point where the Existing tenants can't afford to stay. So you've sort of got the two problems going on at once. You've got the existing properties which are either decreasing in number or being pulled too high up, and the rental plane. Or you've got new construction, which if you look at the cost of land and building today, in order to build any multifamily housing, you have to charge very high rents in order to justify the cost. So both of those factors contribute to a very difficult situation.

It's funny, I see all of these interesting things on social media all the time about things 3D printed houses and how they can, you know, of course this doesn't include the land. Right. But, you know, all these sort of new models of, you know, reducing construction costs. You know, this 3D printed house was built in, you know, a day and a half and it only cost $10,000. And hey, it looks pretty great to me, but, you know, you just don't see this stuff in the marketplace. I mean, where's the disconnect here? Have, you know, I'm sure you're. You're thinking about and talking about construction techniques all the time. You know, traditional construction, of course, has just skyrocketed. But I don't see this other stuff in the marketplace. It seems to be just a, just a lot of talk, really.

The major obstacle you've got is the building codes in this country, which are very restrictive and which make it very difficult to build anything outside of those codes. So by the time you get a. As you mentioned, you've got the price of the land, and then you add to that the construction you need to meet code. It's very hard.

So the, the 3D. And I don't want to get on a big tangent about this 3D printing, but I just got to ask you, because these things are really floated around a lot. You know, I'm seeing this quite often, and you probably are aware of the 3D printed apartment building in China. You know, their pictures of that have been floating around social media. Are those 3D printed houses not up to code? I mean, are they. You know, maybe they're not. Maybe that's the thing they could in.

The US Code in this country.

Yeah, right, right.

You know, I mean, I was in Vancouver and they built apartments out of old shipping containers where they stack them, connect them.

Yeah, and we see that here a little bit in the States, but it's still really.

Yeah, they're actually talking about some of that in New York City.

Yeah, but it's very expensive, though. That's not cheap either.

No. And you know, you're talking about such an amount of demand. These things can only nibble around at the edges.

Right, right. Really there's, you know, there's two components of every property. Right. There's the land and then the construction cost, the improvement. And so the land cost, of course, are driven up incredibly high by environmental restrictions, land use restrictions, and then the construction costs, those are the commodity value and the labor costs and so forth. And then you have the demand that has just increased so much with foreign immigration and, or not even immigration, but just foreign investment in US real estate where you've got non wealthy buyers and renters from south of the border, you've got wealthy buyers and some renters from China, Russia, South America, et cetera. And you know, there's just a. We're not even close to meeting demand, are we?

No, no, we're closer on the market rate side, but we're very far away on the affordable side, particularly for the very low income and renter. They really have the most difficult plight.

What are some of the solutions? So you say low income tax credits to encourage developers to build low income housing.

Right, right.

Okay, tell us about that.

It's for 30 years and interestingly, with strong bipartisan support, the low income housing tax credit has been the primary tool for encouraging private investment in affordable rental housing. Now there are programs at HUD that help as well, particularly the voucher programs which.

Section 8 vouchers.

Yeah, section 8 vouchers, which are two kind. The ones that we like the most are the, what they call the project based vouchers. Because when you have project based vouchers, the property becomes financible. The other type of voucher, which is a portable voucher with the resident.

Right.

They, when they leave, they take it with them. So it's a very different situation.

Sure, sure.

But even those are limited in number and they haven't had the project based program for a number of years and it still exists in the properties that they were originally placed in. But a number of years there hasn't been any new project based vouchers issued.

Right, right. You know, this leads into really another discussion though about the role of government, you know, skyrocketing debt and deficits and you know, someone's got to pay for all this stuff. Right. You know, the taxpayers pay for it or just everybody does through inflation. And then, you know, it kind of begs the question of do these government programs really help or hurt people ultimately? Do they make them dependent? And we have Many clients, and I have personal experience of course, too, with Section 8 housing. And, you know, it seems like the tenants just stay on the program. They never get off it. You know, there's no real incentive for them to become more independent, I guess. What are your thoughts?

That sounds a little like a market rate developer that has to put some small percentage of the property in affordable housing.

Right, right.

By and large, the people that we have, and we have a lot of them who have vouchers, don't work in jobs where they can escalate their income to a point where they don't need those vouchers. They're working in a warehouse, they're working in a McDonald's or working in retail trade. They're working at a very low level job and therefore they're not going to be able to afford housing without those vouchers. So I think it's hard to throw them under the bus with welfare and food stamps and all the other programs, which you can argue one way or the other.

Right.

But I think housing, what's important about housing is it's more than just a roof over your head. I mean, one of the things that we do in addition to providing the housing is we have an array of programs that are really designed to improve the quality of life for the tenants. And, you know, one goes hand in hand. But there's comprehensive studies available these days that show that when people are housed, they're healthier, they're more employable.

Sure.

Their kids are healthier, they learn better. So if vouchers allow those people to have a place to live and improve their lives in a number of ways, they're providing a real service and they're on and up with them, quite honestly.

Yeah, yeah, well. Well, I mean, I certainly agree with you. It's better for people to be housed. There's no question about that. We don't want, you know, the homelessness problem is a whole nother giant problem that seems almost insurmountable. I mean, I don't know how you solve that problem problem, and I guess nobody does. But what's so sad about the labor situation that you mentioned is that all of these menial jobs that working at McDonald's, the, you know, a lot of these jobs, they were never meant to be careers, but they've turned into careers, sadly for the working poor. You know, when I grew up, you'd get a job at McDonald's or, you know, in retail, and that would be how you worked your way through school or when you were very young, you know that wasn't your career. You know what I mean? What happened to the country that, you know, where do these high paying real careers go? They seem to have been exported.

The fact is there's a large amount of jobs available. It's just that you don't have people that are qualified primarily because of education. But I talk to people who have had to interview a lot of people in order to find a few people to work there. And one of the big problems we have today is the drug problem. People can't pass drug tests.

Yeah.

So between a lack of skill because a lot of the menial jobs that paid decent wages are gone away through automation, through outsourcing, through a lot of other areas, and the education system in the country has not kept up with educating people the kind of jobs that are in the 21st century. It's a real problem.

Right? Well, no question about it. I mean, you've got, sadly, these students leaving massively overpriced colleges with massive amounts of debt. They basically have a mortgage, they just didn't get a house included with it. And they've got these liberal arts degrees that nobody's hiring for. I mean, you know what, what happened to the sciences and engineering and the whole thing's a mess. But I guess we could go on with that forever, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.

That could be a long discussion.

It is a long discussion. It's a big problem. Well, okay, so what else are you guys involved in? And I mean, this is a non profit that you run, right?

Yes.

Yeah. What does it do? Is it an advocacy nonprofit or are you actually providing vouchers or tell us a little bit about what you do?

We were actually. We develop and redevelop affordable housing and in the process we improve the lives of our tenants. I mean, that's our mission. Provide safe, clean, affordable housing for low to moderate income families and seniors and provide services to them to improve their lives. I mean, that's simply what our mission is.

Right, right. In other words, when you look at a property project and it might be what, an apartment complex that you'll rehab, but you'll rehab it to the spec where it's affordable versus upgrading it a ton and making it luxury, is that what you do?

That's correct. Almost always when we do that, we use tax credits which provide the subsidy we need to upgrade the properties. And you say, well, you're upgrading them. They could be market rents. Well, not necessarily, but the limiting factor is that when you get tax credits, you have rent restrictions that are placed recorded on the property that for the next 30 years you can only charge certain rents that get increased for expenses over time. Right, we do that. We also work on new construction. And more and more what we're doing today is working with housing finance agencies and public housing agencies who, you know, if you look at public housing in this country today, public housing properties are grossly underfunded. The government hasn't funded their capital needs for years and years. But there's a program at HUD now called Red, which is really designed to allow housing agencies who apply and get approved to exchange the payments they get as a public housing agency for project based vouchers. And once those vouchers are made available, the housing agency can bring in a developer like us to redevelop the public housing into good, safe, clean, affordable housing and correct all the deferred maintenance that's gone on for years. So that's been a very successful program.

So that basically what you're saying is get the government out of the business of directly providing housing, which seems to be the direction for the last several decades. I mean, I remember when I was a kid growing up in Los Angeles, there was a public housing, a big giant apartment complex in la. It was terrible, it was scummy, it was awful. And you know, it's been redeveloped now and you know, when I go back to that area, there's you know, much nicer apartments there now, which I'm sure has gentrified and kicked the people out. But, but what you're saying is the way to do it is if the government's going to provide something, provide a tax credit to the developers. Well, I guess. And project based section 8 vouchers to pay their rent. Right.

Versus well, the tenants pay. The tenants pay 30% of their income.

Yeah, right on that.

Government, it's a difference. So it doesn't totally pay their rent. So they have skin in the game.

Yeah, a little bit.

But you know, it's interesting, the City of New York public housing, I think I just read the other day that it's something like 26 or $28 billion it would take to correct the deferred maintenance in these buildings.

Oh my God.

Staggering.

Yeah, staggering for sure. I got to ask you, since you mentioned New York and I mentioned la, what are your thoughts on rent control?

Well, rent control, I don't know where rent control has ever worked because it really clamps down on what the private sector is able to do. I think rent stabilization like they have in New York has worked a little better because they do Go in every year and assess whether the rents need to increase or not. Once you have rent control, I think the history has been that properties start to deteriorate. It really doesn't do the residents any good. I mean, you continually hear people singing that song. But I'd like to see where rent control has actually worked over some period of time.

Well, I'm glad you said that. I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. Rent control is pretty much a disaster. I think it creates a black market, a gray market, and I mean, there's even a Seinfeld episode about that, you know, where they're waiting for the neighborhood to die so Elaine can get the apartment, the rent controlled apartment. You know, it's a perversion of the marketplace. So, yeah, I agree with you there. Well, good stuff. Let's wrap it up. But you know what closing thoughts do you want to share or maybe any questions? I haven't asked you anything you want to share with our audience.

We've done a series of surveys over the last couple of years, and it's been really interesting. I mean, people say, why do you do a survey? Well, it gives us sort of a different perspective on what's going on in the, in the society and what people's opinions and views are, particularly when it comes to housing. And we've done a recent survey, actually two surveys on baby boomers. And we found some very interesting things. And if you want me to cite a few of those, I'd be happy.

Absolutely. You know, that was one of the first questions I was going to ask you. So sorry we got sidetracked. Thank you.

I brought you back.

Yeah, yeah. The baby boomer survey is quite fascinating. Go ahead and share some of that with us.

We surveyed 1,000 baby boomers age 55 and older, and A thousand. You need a thousand to have a meaningful survey. Some are still working, some were retired. Of that group, 30% reported having anxiety about being able to afford where they live at least once a month. But of the retired portion of that survey, the retirees, 42% reported having that anxiety at least once daily. So it led us to think, why is this? Why do they have this level of anxiety? And there's several reasons. An interesting recent study by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau reported that older homeowners, which is the slot that baby boomers fall into, oh, almost double on their current mortgage, and the same group did 10 years ago. So clearly being worried about affordability has a lot to do with the debt you have. The statistics are reported all the time. About the low level of savings that people have approaching retirement. And then the third thing is the boomers all expressed a concern and anxiety about health as they age. And yet only 35% of the ones we surveyed had budgeted for unforeseen health related expenses. Now, we did a second survey to sort of follow up on that and it was 1,000 non retired baby boomers age 50 and older. And what we found there was really interesting. There's a serious disconnect between their savings they're planning for retirement and the way they actually think they're going to be able to afford the lifestyle when they're retired. So it was really interesting was 73% of these boomers expect to work past retirement age, which is much higher than I would have expected.

Right, right. Well, you know, I would say that retirement age is too low. First of all, you know, it's that, yeah, that was invented a long time.

Ago, but yeah, 76% of the respondents had either no retirement budget or will depend on Social Security for at least half of their retirement. Yet 83% of them still believe they'll be able to age in place without much change to their standard of living.

And they are. They are in for a rude awakening, aren't they?

Yeah, there seem to be some delusional thinking about what reality is going to be. Yep, yeah, really working longer, their aging and their health issues are going to change. And so I think that we really have to focus on this huge bulge of the population that's going to be coming into retirement age and staying in the workforce.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we definitely do. Richard. Give out your website and help people where they can find more.

NHP foundation.org Excellent.

Richard Burns, thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

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