HS 258 - Gene Baur on Eating Mindfully And the Maltreatment of Animals In The Food Industry

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Hey, it's my pleasure to welcome Gene Bower to the show. He is president and co founder of Farm Sanctuary, author of the new bestselling book Living the Farm Sanctuary, the Ultimate Guide to Eating Mindfully, Living Longer and Feeling Better Every Day. He's also the author of Farm Changing Hearts and Minds About Animals and Food. Gene, welcome. How are you?

I am doing great. Thank you very much for having me.

It's good to have you. And so you used to live on the farm, I guess now you're in the city, right? You're in Washington D.C. that is correct.

I live in the Washington D.C. area. I do a lot of travel and work to raise awareness about our factory farming system and the problems with it.

Yeah, well, there are definitely issues there, so let's dive in and talk about them. What are some of those problems and issues?

Well, you know, the animals that are raised for food in the US are treated like commodities, not like living feeling creatures. They live in these small cages for their whole lives, unable to even turn around. In some cases, they suffer physically and psychologically. They're under chronic stress. They're fed antibiotics on a routine basis. In fact, most of the antibiotics used in the US are fed to farm animals to keep them alive and growing in these inhumane conditions. And then of course, when humans eat these animals, they may have antibiotic resistant pathogens, you know, plus we eat just way too many animal products in the US and we're seeing health problems that result from that. So this factory farming system is bad for animals, it is bad for consumers, and it's also bad for the environment because it squanders scarce resources like water and fossil fuels and land. And it is producing a product that, you know, could, you know, we could eat much more efficiently if we ate plant foods instead of animal foods.

Well, when I read John Robbins book, Diet for a New America. In my 20s, it inspired me to become a, you know, frankly, not too strict vegetarian for six years. You know, his arguments made a lot of sense. He called that eating low on the food chain. And, you know, that seems to make a lot of sense to me as well. But talk a little bit about the antibiotic issue. So why are they feeding all of these factory farm animals antibiotics all the time? Because they're getting sick and they would just die and get infections constantly because they're so crowded. Is that the reason?

Yes, that is part of the reason. And you know, the industry doesn't actually know what the exact biological impact of these antibiotics is, but what they have found is that by including these drugs in the animals feed, the animals grow faster and so it is cheaper. And that's really the bottom line for industry. So they're using these antibiotics. And the reason is too that these are filthy, stressful conditions. So feeding them antibiotics does keep them alive when they may die otherwise.

One of the things that's interesting here, Gene, is this issue of superbugs and how doctors now are being told to really withhold prescribing antibiotics in the fear of that if they just keep doling them out, all the bugs become resistant and that may be the end of us. Is there a problem related to that here too? Are they taking a whole list of antibiotics or just sort of one or two?

No, it's a whole list. And, you know, the problem is that, you know, the pathogens become resistant to one group of antibiotics, so then they introduce a new group of antibiotics. And the same thing holds in human medicine. And the problem is that these pathogens are evolving quicker and quicker and that the antibiotics are becoming less and less effective. And so this is bad for animals, but it also threatens human health when we have these pathogens that are evolving and are becoming resistant to what were formerly life saving drugs. And, you know, the bottom line is that, you know, we need to live holistically, we need to recognize that our behaviors have consequences. And, you know, we are part of the earth and we have microbes in us and you know, to have healthy microbes and to live, you know, without trying to kill, you know, various bacteria is, I think, wiser than killing them, like we're trying to do in the factory farming system. And also in our food system generally, you know, we have a very sterile food system. And, you know, a little bit of dirt, a little bit of bacteria is okay, and our bodies respond to that. And so there's a Lot of problems here. And, you know, antibiotics to farm animals is one of the big ones.

Is there any real proof that consuming animals and animal products that have been pumped up with these antibiotics do anything to humans? I mean, is that. Do we know that for sure or, you know, honestly, is that. Is that proven?

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's been. There's been outbreaks of E. Coli, for example, that had been made resistant to pathogens because of the overuse of antibiotics in the food system. And then those antibiotics were not able to fight off the disease in humans. So there have been cases linked to animal products painted with these pathogens.

Okay, so fair enough. But that's really kind of the big, broad issue. And I agree with you there that that's a huge concern because, you know, if we can't fight the bugs and these superbugs, you know, they could take over the world and wipe us out. I mean, it really is a pretty scary thing to think about. But is there a more immediate problem of consuming these animal products that have been pumped up with antibiotics? And I want to ask you about hormones, too. You didn't even mention that. But just the antibiotic part.

Yeah, well, you know, it is hard to prove this stuff sometimes. And, you know, even the tobacco industry, as you may recall, was arguing that there's no scientific evidence that cigarettes cause cancer.

Oh, well, yeah, come on.

It's ridiculous. But the challenge with science is that, you know, it is talking about probabilities and the likelihood of certain things, and agribusiness has a vested interest in not finding certain problems. There's this sort of don't look, don't find approach. And, you know, there's billions and billions of dollars being made on the status quo. And so there's really not been the sort of research we would like to see to look at the consequences of our food system the way it is. I mean, even in the case of mad cow disease, there was a very strong effort, I believe, not to find that in the US and we actually had litigation against the US Department of Agriculture, and they finally admitted that we had mad cow disease in the U.S. but there's a very strong interest in not finding these problems, because if they do, there's a liability. And the other thing is that sometimes the illnesses that result from eating cows with mad cow disease, for instance, takes years to manifest in human beings. So it's kind of hard sometimes to directly link somebody eating a hamburger to a particular health problem, like dementia in the case of mad cow disease or transmissible spongiform encephalopathy There's a lot that is not known. And I think that frankly, the industry does not want to look very closely.

I want to ask you about, you know, vegetarianism and veganism. And, you know, here's one of my big problems with it. And just so you know where I'm coming from and the listeners know where I'm coming from, I'm going to tell you, okay? So I believe and feel free to argue with me, of course, I'm sure you will, but you have my permission. I believe we're meant to be omnivores. Okay? I do agree with you that Americans especially, maybe other countries too, but I know Americans do consume too many animal products. I think that, you know, when we consume an animal product, if. And I know you can argue this evolutionary stuff like every which way till Sunday, but this is just seems logical to me this way is that, you know, when we were living in caves and we would hunt and we would catch an animal, animals are hard to catch, okay? So, you know, it would be more of an occasion, a celebration, you know, hey, we brought home the kill, let's make it. This was a special thing. It was a rare thing. And most of the rest of the time we'd be living off plant products. Okay? And so, you know, it didn't mean we would be having animal products three times a day, you know, like most Americans do. And so, so I kind of take a middle ground on it. But my problem with giving up animal products is that the animal products are very protein dense. And one of my favorite little vegan restaurants had this board up sign as, you know, you wait in line to get your fantastic food. By the way, it had this little sign up that said, you know, think vegans and vegetarians don't get enough protein? Well, here's how much protein quinoa has and here's how much protein lentils have and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And the reality of that is it's a myth because it doesn't have as much protein per gram or per ounce as any animal product. Yes, you can get some protein from that stuff, but it's not protein dense. And I look around at, you know, I mean, I know there's some exceptions to all this stuff, but I look around and, you know, people that are vegan, vegetarian, they just don't seem like they have really good muscle tone usually. And protein is the building block of muscles. So go ahead and take issue with me, please. That's my stump speech. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now, not a problem.

Well, you know, I think as you say, Americans eat way too much meat and I think where you sit on this issue, that people should eat less and that historically human beings have eaten, ate very little and you know, oftentimes I think we would actually scavenge. So we are primarily plant eaters and that is, you know, certainly where you and I would agree, you know, the question about whether we can live well with only plants and no animal products, you know, that is one where I would say that yes we can. And in terms of protein, you know, the average American gets way too much protein. And you know, I've been a vegan since 1985 and, and I've done several marathons over the past few years, done several triathlons including an Ironman. I'm in my 50s now and you know, my health is good. There are other endurance athletes that you know, Scott Jurek, for example, who's won the Western States 100 mile race seven times in a row as a vegan.

You'Re going to love this. Next thing I want to say I'm just going to throw in here that I don't think doing all those endurance things are very good for you. I think we're meant to do interval training. I've done a bunch of shows on that. And get your heart rate up for a very short minute or two and then let it drop and then get it up again. The interval thing I think is really the key. But listen, that said, I have tons of respect for people that can run a marathon. I'm not going to. I think cars were invented to go 26.2 miles, not people. But it's a amazing that you have the willpower to do that. I will give you lots of credit for that.

But also I'm just trying to make the point that plant based athletes do quite well and get plenty of protein. I mentioned endurance but I'll also mention Patrick Babouillian who's a strong man out of Germany. He broke a world record about a year or two ago, carried more weight than any human ever carried as a vegan. And this guy's got thighs that are massive. And if you look at some of the strongest animals on the planet, elephants, they're vegetarian.

So.

So I mean, I think, you know, the question is can, can plant foods provide the protein we need to thrive? And, and I believe it, they can. And, and you know, you may have a different opinion about that.

Talk about the hormones. I mean, you know, listen, the one thing we'll definitely agree on is that factory farming is cause for concern. Okay. And I think all our listeners will agree on that. I mean, you know, if you're going to eat animal farm products, free range, of course not pumped full of hormones. What about the hormone element? You didn't even bring that up originally. I was kind of wondering why.

Well, you know, there's actually not that many hormones used for certain animals. Hormones are used with beef cattle, they're used on dairy farms, but they're generally not used with pigs or with poultry. And so, you know, there have been instances though of precocious puberty that have been linked to the consumption of chicken product. And you know, one of the feelings, one of again, there's not been a lot of research on this and there's a strong incentive not to look very closely on the part of agribusiness.

Yeah, right, right. Because whenever there's money in something, you know, everybody turns the other way, including global warming, you know, which there's money in it. And I think that's a bit of a scam, you know, but that's another discussion.

But on the hormone thing, one thing I would say is that the farm animals being raised today, including on less so called free range farms, have been genetically bred to grow twice as big and twice as fast as normal. So you have chickens now reaching slaughter weight at 40 something days old.

That cannot be okay. There's gotta be something bad about that.

Yes. And so these are chickens that have been genetically bred in such a way that they probably have enormous amounts of hormones coursing through their bodies. So eating those animals, I think, you know, although there's not hormones fed to them or injected in them, are, you know, hormone heavy. And I think that has a consequence to humans. And a lot of the free range farms actually use those genetically altered animals. So even free range chicken, for instance, will include chickens that are genetically modified. And I've been to these places too. I mean, I've been to some so called humane farms, local farms, farms for example, that were featured in Food Inc. As the good farm and you know, saw these chickens that were not living very well and were growing a lot faster than they should naturally be growing.

Yeah, yeah. That, that cannot be okay. You know, I'm curious to see what you think about. And it's getting really weird out there with science, but it's also pretty amazing. What do you think about the hamburger that was made in a lab? I think now they've made milk in a lab too. Is that okay or is that, I mean, I Mean, I guess, I guess that's, you know, when we get into this. And I've done several shows on the GMO issue and I don't, I'm not exactly sure where to land on that one yet. Probably few people are. I mean, that's just all gmo. Right. How do they make a bird burger in a lab or milk in a lab? It's quote, real beef and real milk, but it's not.

Well, I don't know about the milk one, but the beef one. They start with cells of a cow and they replicate them in a lab. And the idea is to produce meat literally from these cells. And the technology's got a little way to go yet to be economically viable. And I have mixed feelings about that. But there are also companies that are developing meatless meats that taste a lot like meat. There's one called the Beast Burger that just came out from a company called Beyond Meat.

Is it a soy product?

I think there's some soy in it, but there's also pea protein and there's other types of plant based proteins.

What do you think about the soy? I mean, everybody says soy is dangerous, it's just not good.

I think that's overstated, frankly. I think that, you know, within with, you know, and you ought to also look at, you know, what kind of soy. Is it genetically modified soy or is it more, you know, organic and more holistic soy or whole food soy? So I think there's. And then processed foods. That's, there's, there's so many elements here. My basic feeling is that the closer you get to the source of the food, eating whole foods instead of processed foods, eating plant foods instead of, instead of animal foods, those tend to be positive steps in a good direction.

Yeah, yeah. And I, you got a. That's a reasonable thesis. Okay, so I'll just tell you, I looked it up while you were talking. This article is in Wired magazine and it is April 15th. So it's very recent. It says cow milk without the cow is coming to change food forever. And I'm looking at the online version. So it is online and it just talks about this. This company, Counterculture Labs, takes its name pretty literally. A bio lab. And they basically created milk. And they've got another project, real vegan cheese that they've created too. And they're talking about like hacking the DNA. I mean, I don't know. A lot of this stuff is pretty scary, you know.

Yeah, there's some really great nut cheeses now that are cultured. So they have A tang like cheddar and things like that. There is almond milk, there's soy milk, there's coconut milk. There's lots of different plant based alternatives to cow's milk that I really like and they're widely available now in mainstream grocery stores. So that's generally what I do and what I prefer. But we'll see what happens with these other products. I think when you start getting in and splicing jeans, I start getting a little bit nervous.

Yeah, well. And you know, the effects may not show up for 30 years. That's the scary part. And that's, that's what we don't know about the GMO thing either. You know, I, I will say there is a fantastic cheese. I ordered a slice of pizza at Whole Foods Market once and it was made with this vegan cheese called I think Daria cheese. Daiya.

Daiya, Yep. It's made out of tapioca root.

Oh my gosh. That was phenomenal. That was the best piece of pizza I have ever had in my life. I couldn't believe how good it was.

Yeah, they're starting to have some really great vegan cheeses and that was the one thing that we were sort of missing. But now there's Daiya and there's these other, you know, high end cheeses that are being produced now that are all plant based.

What do you say to the people that say, you know, if it wasn't for companies like Monsanto or, you know, the engineering of the food and the pesticides and all this stuff, that yes, you know, maybe there are health issues that we don't know, you know, yet, or maybe we do know. I guess it depends who you're talking to and what. You know, there won't be agreement on that. But, you know, in the 70s, everybody was saying people were just going to starve and we were going to have famine. And you know, it's sort of hard to criticize them a lot because they've kept the price of food reasonably low. I mean, adjusted for inflation. And, you know, there's no reason for people in the world to be hungry. Granted, it's a distribution and a problem with, you know, flaws in the system, but the food is there. We could feed everybody.

No, there is a lot of food, but I'm not sure that it's necessarily Monsanto that has brought it to us. And also, you know, there's external costs associated with our cheap food system. Things like health care. You know, people go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills. And oftentimes the ailments they're suffering from, like heart disease or cancer or diabetes, the risks of those can be seriously lessened by eating a healthier, more plant based diet. So, you know, when you have, you know, corn produced in massive quantities, used as animal feed and then you have it processed into things like corn syrup and people eating that, yes, it's cheap, but it's also hazardous to us.

And it's more expensive in the long run.

Yes, absolutely.

Does it, you know, does it cost more? I remember once on a Thanksgiving I volunteered to work in a soup kitchen and I just found it kind of odd that I was the thinnest person there. I was serving people that were just massively overweight in some cases. Is it more expensive or less expensive to eat?

Right?

I mean, vegetables aren't very expensive.

No, they aren't. And you know, I think a lot depends on what a person, you know, how a person chooses to eat. So it does not have to be expensive to eat. Right. And just, you know, as an example, instead of buying potato chips, you know, you take that same money and buy a sack of potatoes and you have much more nutrition. It's, you know, much, you know, better bang for the buck in terms of what you spend and what you get and you're healthier. So no, I think we have bad habits in this country. We eat bad, a very bad diet and our health suffers. And it doesn't have to be that way.

Well, good stuff. Give out your website, Gene. Tell people where they can find out more and find the books.

Yes, the organization is Farm Sanctuary. Our website is farmsanctuary.org and the most recent book is called Living the Farm Sanctuary Life. It is on Amazon and it's also available at other online booksellers.

Closing thoughts about this. Just wrap it all up for us if you would.

Yeah, well, every day we make choices about what we eat and those choices have very significant consequences for our own health, but also for the planet. And by eating plants instead of animals, we can do good for ourselves, for animals and for the planet.

Gene Bauer, thank you for joining us. Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me.

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