HS 269 - CIA's Project Star Gate & Remote Viewing with John Herlosky

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It's my pleasure to welcome John Herlosky to the show. He is the author of A Skeptics journey into the CIA's Project Stargate. John, welcome. How are you?

I'm fine, thank you, Jason.

Good, good. It's good to have you on the show. This is a fascinating project. This is about the CIA's attempt to use remote viewing. Is that the crux of it?

Well, the book entails my discovery about the military program. Project Stargate was actually instituted back in the early 70s as a possible use of psychic phenomena for intelligence gathering purposes. The program was actually had several different code words, but it's more popularly known as Stargate.

It's surprising or, I don't know, is it surprising that the CIA would be into this kind of thing? It seems a little bit nebulous and, you know, occultish.

Far fetched. Yes, right, yeah. To be honest with you, when I first became aware of the program, which was in the early 90s when I was working on a project called Trojan Warrior 2, frankly was very skeptical of it, you know, the idea that the intelligence services would be using psychic phenomena as an intelligence gathering asset. So I didn't think actually too much about it. It wasn't until 1997 that I happened to come upon a book by the name of Psychic Warrior by Dr. David Morehouse, and it chronicled his experiences as a remote viewer in the US Army's Project Stargate program.

And so when you heard about this stuff, you were skeptical, right?

Oh, I was very skeptical. I mean, you have to understand that my background would make me nothing other than a skeptic on something like this. My upbringing was by two teachers, you know, and I went to college, studied mathematics, engineering with a minor in philosophy, and I went on to become a police officer and worked for two different departments, graduated in the top 10 of both police academies.

So you don't seem like a real New Age guy to me.

No, No. I mean, I have to tell you, I've never seen a ufo. I've never had a psychic experience in my life. Up till that point, I had never seen a ghost, had a premonition, and as far as I knew, Elvis was still dead.

And what about Jim Morrison?

Yeah, exactly.

Weren't abducted by aliens either, right?

No, I'm sorry. I have never been abducted.

Okay, Good stuff. Well, we got that out of the way. What did you find out as you explored this and peeled back the skepticism?

You know, it's interesting. When I read Dave's book, his experiences, I. I was frankly really shocked. And it wasn't so much that the intelligence services of our country would use psychic phenomena as an intelligence gathering asset. I mean, they would use anything if it gave them an advantage, and rightfully so. But what I found extraordinary was the fact that here they took a pragmatic special operations soldier, a Ranger company commander, who had never had a psychic experience in his life either, and they trained him in this art and science of remote viewing. That's the part that I found very difficult to wrap my mind around.

That is pretty amazing. It really is. You know, I always used to hear about how the Russians were always conducting experiments on psychic things and all kinds of sort of paranormal stuff.

Oh, yeah.

That many people would consider pseudoscience. I don't know, though. I'm kind of wondering a lot of stuff that we do today or just expect today would have been total science fiction, you know, just a couple of decades ago.

Oh, yeah, very much so.

I'm really wondering if 10 years from now we'll look back and say, yeah, why didn't we believe that then?

Exactly. I mean, remember the turn of the 19th century, authors like H.G. wells and Jules Verne, they talked about space travel. They talked about submarines traveling around the world under the water. They talked about heat, heat rays. And nowadays we have nuclear subs. You know, we have spacecraft that can reach the outer limits of our solar system. We have laser weapons now coming online. So yesterday's science fiction is today or tomorrow's reality.

The fact that they utilized this and the Russians were into it. You have to understand that during that particular period of time, in the middle of the Cold War, each side was looking for an advantage, any advantage they could get on the other. And the Soviets, which were falling behind technologically, were looking for any advantage that they could get. That's why they started their program into psychic phenomena. And when our intelligence services got wind of this, then they decided that they did not want to get caught in a so called psychic gap. So the CIA started a very low level program and hired two laser physicists, Dr. Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ from the Stanford Research Institute in Palo Alto, California. And they brought on board a well known New York artist and so called psychic by the name of Ingo Swann. And they started delving into this reality of psychic phenomena. They took this and they put it under scientific scrutiny, under the scientific method whereby you have a hypothesis, you subject that hypothesis to scientific inquiry and experiment, you publish your results and then you have peer review and then attempts to replicate these experiments. And they found that it was a real phenomena. And as they found it was a real phenomena, and the more and more that they delved into what they could do and what they couldn't do, they found that remote viewing, which is the name that they use to describe the psychic phenomena, so to speak.

So remote viewing, is that just seeing something happening somewhere else, or is it traveling through time and seeing what happened in the past or what, you know, might happen in the future?

It's all of those things. Remote viewing encompasses essentially what used to be called clairvoyance and precognition. And what it is, is essentially a scientifically validated protocol and methodology that allows a practitioner to view people, places, objects or events distant in space and time and often shielded from observation outside the normal five modes of perception, and being able to describe and bring back information on the same. So it's essentially just a scientifically validated form of the extrasensory perception.

Yeah, interesting. Okay. So do you think it's possible to remote view now? It sounds like you do.

Oh, I had my reality booted in the butt, if you will. Yes, very much so.

So you've remote viewed then?

Oh, yes. I spent over a thousand hours with Dr. Morehouse, Paul Smith, Lynn Buchanan and several others learning this art and science. And the book chronicles my experiences as well in learning and utilizing this technology. And that's really the best way to find out whether or not this is a real phenomena or whether or not it's just just smoke and mirrors, as some super skeptics would have you believe. And I found out for myself, even as a skeptic, that this is a real phenomena. It works.

Tell us about your experience. What did you do?

I'll tell you something. The session that really made it obvious to me that you could not dismiss this technology was a target that I was given in Dave Morehouse's class. And that target was the Mars Sojourner rover on the twin peak sector of Mars. Now, when we were given this target, we were only given two sets of four randomly chosen numbers as the target. That's all the information we had with just these two sets of four numbers. We're not told anything else about the target other than it would be an interesting target. And by using the methodologies and the protocols that I had been taught, I found myself standing on this plain that was strewn with pebbles and rocks all the way out to the horizon. And I was a little surprised because Dave had said that this was going to be a very interesting target. And yet here I am, I'm looking out into the distance, and all I'm seeing is lots of sand and dirt and rocks. And that's it. I mean, I looked around, but it didn't seem like there was anything there. And it looked like a desert tableau from Death Valley. And I noticed, though, that it seemed like it was very difficult to breathe. All of a sudden I was having a difficulty. I always felt like I was short of breath.

What type of state were you in? Were you sleeping or, like being laying on a couch, you know, being hypnotized or how do you. What is this?

Okay, no, that's a valid question. Valid question. Actually, we were using a technology, a type of remote viewing called extended remote viewing. And what that is, is you have the practitioner lie down. We used inflatable mattresses with sleeping bags and pillows. And we would get snugged up in our sleeping bags on these mattresses. And we would have an eye shield down over our eyes and earplugs in so that it would help mute any outside disturbances. And what you do is you get into a very, very deep hypnagogic state, which is not unlike that of a hypnotic state. I mean, it's very deep meditative state. And then by using these protocols, it allows you to start to visualize or extend your consciousness, if you will, on whatever that target happens to be. Now, the fact that we don't know what the target is is not a hindrance, because the person who makes up those coordinates has the intention, and remote viewing is intention driven of sending us to wherever this target is. So because Dave knew what the target was, his intention was for us to go to view the Mars Sojourner rover. So the fact that we didn't know what the target was and only had these coordinates that were randomly chosen was not a hindrance to us. So I was in this very deep meditative state. When I was extending my consciousness, if you will, out to the surface of the plane of Mars. And I was undergoing what is called a bilocation, which is where the viewer becomes so identified with the target that he starts experiencing physical manifestations of what he would actually feel if he was at the target site. So for me, I felt cold and I felt it was difficult to breathe there. Now, when you consider that Mars only has 1/100th of the atmosphere that Earth does, you can understand why I would have that sensation.

Well, I'm surprised you didn't actually die or get hypothermia or suffocate. Right.

I know. I mean, you think it might, but, you know, the mind has this internal sensor so that it always limits whatever you feel at the target site. So that it never actually injures you or hurts you in any way. So that you'll get a sense of what it's like there. But you won't actually have the full experience, if you will. So I was never in any danger of passing out for lack of oxygen.

We've all heard the story about the person who got. I don't know if it's true, but was locked in the train car. And it was a refrigerated train car. And he thought he was gonna die. And it turned out the refrigeration unit didn't even work. But when the door was opened the following Monday, you know, it was like Friday Place was closing down and the door was open and the guy froze to death without it even being freezing. Oh, like you've heard the story, right? It's kind of famous.

That's true. The mind can have an extraordinary effect on the body. But as remote viewers, we are taught from the very beginning that we don't have to worry about whether or not we are going to have any serious damage done to us by this bilocation effect. Because we already knew that Your mind will limit whatever sensations that you'll get during this session. While it was uncomfortable, I was never in any danger. I never felt like I was in any danger.

So I was standing on this plane and I was just really, frankly, a little pissed off. Because I didn't see anything that was supposedly this wonderful target. And I just happened to look down up to see my feet. Because I wanted to see whether or not I could actually see myself. And right in front of me was this flat, rectangular, what appeared to me to be some sort of an electronic panel. It had bluish reddish glass across the top. And there was Circuitry or wires running through it. And I thought, whoa, that's interesting. So I wanted to step back to see what was underneath this flat panel. And as I did so, the person who happened to be on the floor next to me actually drifted off to sleep and started snoring. And when he snored, it yanked me out of my session because I lost that deep hypnagogic state when he started snoring, and it yanked me back to the classroom. So that actually ended my session at the time. But to my surprise, when Dave put up on the overhead projector, what the target was seeing. The Mars Sojourner rover there. And it had exactly the same type of panel on the top of it. And it was a solar cell is what it was. And I had seen that. And when you looked at the picture, it shows this flat plane that was strewn with rocks and sand and dirt exactly the way that I had seen it.

Okay. So everybody listening might be saying, well, this sounds pretty believable. You know, you're a skeptical guy, et cetera, et cetera. So the way they can know for sure if this works is to just do it themselves. I mean, do you offer any tips on how someone listening can actually do this?

Well, you know, there are a number of the original remote viewers from the military program that still teach this. There's a quick little game that the remote viewers used to play just to keep themselves in hand or keep their antennas up, so to speak, when they weren't working an operational mission. And it's, you can do it with a friend, and all you have to do is have that friend start thinking of a particular color and have them immerse themselves, if you will, in that color. Just really think really hard on that color and see if you can guess it. And I think you will find it very strange, but you will be able to probably better than 90% of the time.

Very interesting. Amazing stuff. What else do you want to share with people, John, that we haven't covered yet about this?

Well, you know, one of the interesting things about that particular session that I did on Mars was the fact that while I was there, I noticed a dust devil that went by near the rover. And what was interesting, I found was that this dust devil appeared to have, like, fireflies in it. Like, there was this energy that was flowing up through it. And at the time, I didn't give it much credence or much thought to it, because I just figured it was a phenomena that was particular to the remote viewing session I was doing. But it Appears that that actually was a real phenomenon. About a year and a half, actually. After I had done the session, scientists from the University of Arizona were doing experiments on dust devils in the Arizona desert. Because by that time, NASA had imaged dust devils on Mars by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter overhead. And they wanted to know whether or not these dust devils might be a hazard for future astronauts that might be on the surface of Mars. So they decided that they were going to do some experiments with terrestrial dust devils to see whether or not there might be a hazard involved. And in measuring some of the aspects of the dust devils with their instruments, they found that dust devils here on Earth were actually charged. And that's because the dust and sand that gets pulled up into these dust devils, because they're rubbing together, the dust devil would become charged because the smaller particles would be drawn up higher into the dust devil and the heavier particles would be down below. So you'd wind up with a separation of charges and these charges could become quite significant. They found that it could be upwards of over 4000 volts per square foot, which was an amazing amount of energy being contained in this. And you have to realize that the dust devils on Mars, because of the lack of gravity, Mars has only one third the gravity that Earth does. And the fact that the atmosphere there is much, much less than here on Earth. The velocities of these dust devils become very high. And so the charge that gets involved in these dust devils on Mars becomes extremely high. And actually it can cause radio disruption. The dust, which becomes conductive, can coat antennas and solar cells and things like that. And it can actually cause a disruption in communications, which could prove to be a hazard for astronauts when they're on Mars. And I had seen that electrical energy flowing in the dust devil on Mars over a year and a half before that was ever discovered.

Very interesting stuff. Very interesting. Yeah. Give out your website, John.

My website is www.a sorcerersapprentice, which is the main title of the book.com.

As I said when we started, I just so wonder if, just a very short time, a few years from now, if we will be amazed that you know all of this stuff. Why didn't we believe it today? You know, because it's obvious we've used instrumentation to. To figure it out and so forth. So really, really interesting stuff. Good having you on the show. And thank you for joining us, John.

Well, thank you very much for having me, Jason. I really appreciate it.

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