HS 273 - Lab Grown, Cultured Meat from Memphis Meats: The Future of Food with Dr. Uma Valeti

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It's my pleasure to welcome Dr. Uma Valeti. He is CEO of Memphis ME and you've probably read some articles and heard a little bit about lab grown food. This is fascinating. As I always say, it's an amazing time to be alive. I'm sure this subject will be pretty controversial for some. We've done shows in the past about gmo, genetically modified organisms and so forth. And of course we've done several shows talking about, you know, the attack on our food supply and so forth. Now maybe this is a great thing, maybe this is the future, maybe it's not. I don't know. I'm going to be open to the inquiry here. Uma, welcome. How are you?

Very good. Thanks for having us here, Jason.

Yeah, it's great to have you. And you're a cardiologist, so you're a real doctor, which is great. How did you happen to get into the lab grown meat business?

So let me just preface that by saying being a cardiologist doesn't preclude me from eating great food. And we started Memphis Meats because we believe eating delicious meat should be a safe, healthy and guilt free experience for everyone. And the current agricultural system can't get us there, so we're creating a new one. So being a cardiologist I also see health effects of the diet, of the American diet or the western diet. And I have treated a number of patients that irrespective of their age, in their 30s, 40s or 50s, coming with cardiac arrest and diet, and poor diet is a big contributor to that. And that is one of my motivations. And from I was a child, say maybe I was 12 or 13 when I started noticing that I grew up in a meat eating family and I grew up in India. I went to one of my friends birthday party, you know, we were Having fun in the front of the house. And there was a lot of food and dance and music. And I walked to the back of the house just to take a stroll. And I saw that the animals were being slaughtered in the back of the house. And it was kind of a stark moment in my life where there was birthday and then there was a death day. And it didn't sit well with me, but I still loved eating meat and I continued to do so. And as I went through medical school and doing cardiology, I started getting exposed to medical science where I was injecting stem cells into patients hearts when they came with heart attacks with the hope of growing heart muscle. And I think that's where the idea sparked for me, that if we could grow heart muscle using our technologies, why can't we grow food that's safe and healthy and much better for us, for cardiovascular health or for the environment? And also, if we can make it economically more efficient than the current animal production system we have, I thought it would be an important aspect to explore. And that kind of started me on this path in building this team.

So, Uma, this brings to mind, you said some very good things, by the way, all of those are good causes and so forth. But lab grown meat brings to mind Frankenfood, playing with nature, playing God, all this kind of stuff. Take us through the process of how you grow meat in your labs.

Yes. So let me just preface this by saying we are not calling this lab grown meat. Just like lots of foods we eat out there are not labeled as lab grown foods. For example, corn flakes were first made in a laboratory. But we don't call that lab grown conflicts. They're just natural conflicts. As people start learning how we are cultivating meat and harvesting meat, they will understand that it's just like growing a small plant into a larger plant or a smaller animal into a larger animal. What we have here to start off with is cells. So the process is as follows. At a very simple but true level. We take cells from, whether it's a cow, a pig, or a chicken, it could be from a pork shoulder, it could be from a tenderloin. And we isolate cells that are capable of self renewing themselves. So in the meat that we all eat now, there are certain cells in there already that have the ability to renew themselves. Once we take these cells out and put them in a condition where we provide them with rich nutrients. By that I mean we provide them with vitamins, minerals, sugars, proteins and oxygen, these cells grow and become meat tissue. And we Cultivate them to a point where we can either harvest them very early in the life or we can harvest them a little bit later, depending on what we're trying to get. If you're trying to get very tender meat, we harvest it early. If you're trying to get meat a little more texturized, we're going to wait a little longer before we harvest the meat. So it's the same process whether we're going pork, beef or chicken. And you know, you did bring up the issue of Frankenfood and our process is very similar to over hundreds of years where beer is brewed in a brewery. This is the equivalent of growing meat in a brewery. It's safe, clean and efficient because we know what nutrients are going in there. We know the cells are authentic meat cells. So what we're making or producing is not fake meat or alternatives to meat. It is authentic real meat. Now if you contrast that to the modern farm animals, which are really Frankenstein animals because as you know, chickens, it's disgusting.

I read a fantastic book recently called Sapiens, which is about the history of humanity. Basically he said something I thought was very valid. He said, when we look back on our time now, I think we will look back basically at the way we produce food and meat and just it's deplorable, it's really disgusting. And I humor of it, I hate to be part of it. I feel guilty. It's atrocious the way this has gone. But on the other side of it, you have to argue that, look, the fact that we have this industrial farm production, I mean we're feeding a lot more people. So in the 70s everybody was worried about famine, right? And that didn't happen. The complete opposite happened. Unfortunately we have a huge obesity problem, overabundance problem of food and food is cheap and accessible to pretty much everybody. So I don't, you know, this is a complicated subject obviously, but please comment.

On that just to kind of tag on to what you said. Just to look at what we are eating now. Chickens grow six to seven times as quickly as they would grow in a natural environment. The cows are giving 10 times more milk than their normal output. Turkeys are so top heavy that they can't even breed naturally. And almost all meat that we eat is a product of both artificial insemination, genetic manipulation of these animals and massive doses of growth promoting drugs or antibiotics. By contrast, what we're doing is putting cells in an environment where they get the nutrients they need to grow and multiply. Exactly like what plan plants do and when we think about the health implications of this or the environmental implications of this, as we start going deeper and deeper into the R and D that we're doing, it's becoming clear to us that we use a fraction of the energy, land and water resources that are used to feed these intense animal production facilities called the CAFOs. We also have no animal waste that's generated, so there is really no land or water pollution. And on top of that, we are able to grow the meat which could produce less saturated fat or things that have less iron in them, both of which are important for cardiovascular health. Or when meat is cooked, there is some association with red meat and cancer causing capabilities. So as we start learning more and more about did human diet really have to have meat produced the way it has in the last century? Mostly with the industrial revolution, I think.

We'Re going to learn a lot, explain what's happening here. I mean, you're basically cloning meat, right? Is that what you're doing?

So like I said, we are not cloning anything. We are taking cells from a pork, beef or chicken source. These are meat cells and we are growing these cells. So these cells are growing and expanding and becoming what they normally become, which is muscle tissue, because most of the meat we eat is muscle and they're becoming muscle tissue. So there is no cloning involved in this. Although there are some misconceptions. Just like people call something lab grown meat or cloning, this is a cell that's growing and doing what it naturally does.

Okay, so you're reproducing. What is the proper name for this? What's the technical name?

So the technical name at this point, it's called cultured meat because this is a type of tissue culture. On the medical side, and because the field is so new, we are still using terminology that is leftover from medical science and the field has evolved from something called tissue culture. And as we are talking to more and more people, there is clearly a need to say that this is authentic meat, because there is confusion out there that, oh, are you making this from soy proteins? Are you making this from plant proteins? What is this? Are you synthesizing something? And the thing that we are trying to let people know, because look, we are pioneers in this area, we're starting this on the commercial side, that this is authentic meat, the same meat that we go and buy at the supermarket, it's just grown in a different way.

In a much healthier, more sustainable way from what you say. I mean, but when you say it's authentic Meat. Let me, I just beg to differ with you. Maybe just correct me if I'm wrong. It's also engineered meat, though. I mean, admittedly our other food is engineered like crazy and that's a concern. But you're talking about how you make it less fatty, you reduce the iron content, which by the way, isn't iron good for you. Isn't that why people should eat some red meat and to have some iron? I mean, I know that anemic people, you know, the doctor will tell you go have a hamburger, you know, or steak or something, right? That's one minor question. But you are engineering it. It's not completely natural, if you will, right?

So if you are talking about this from the perspective that what we're eating now is engineered, and if you're approaching this from the perspective that engineering things is not natural, then everything around us really is not natural. Because the food we eat now didn't exist when the caveman first came out. None of these animals existed. So everything has evolved with the type of natural engineering or selection processes. And this is just a new way of agriculture going forward where we've got a planet that's got 7 billion people and there's 3 more billion that's going to be added in the next 30 years. And people love to eat meat. And if people love to eat meat and we just cannot produce enough meat to sustain 10 billion people, it's up to us to innovate how we can feed us in the planet in the next 30 years. And as you know, the current animal agriculture process is incredibly efficient to the sense of putting a thousand pigs in a feces filled barn. And I just can't imagine how you could make this process any more efficient for the traditional animal agriculture.

It's hard to disagree with you. You know, I mean, this is fascinating, it really is. But compared to someone who is, I like to tease my ex girlfriend saying she's orthorexic, which if you've ever looked that term up, that's someone who's really very critical of their food consumption. They, you know, organic everything, grass fed meat, etc. So if one was to eat grass fed food, farm raised animals, they would not be eating something engineered. I mean, you could argue that it's been engineered through evolution or maybe bred that way the way dogs are bred and animals have been bred for hundreds of years, but that would be natural. The food we're mostly eating though is completely engineered and unnatural. So I just want to make that comparison to make sure our comparisons are accurate.

Right, absolutely. So you're making a very good point. So if you talk about 99% of the meat or 99.9% of the meat that's being consumed in the world right now, that's not coming from the process you're describing where you're having a cow graze the fields and naturally letting it live its life and slaughtering it. And if we intend to feed 10 billion people using that process that you just described, we probably will need 10 to 20 planet earths to be able to have that much land for grazing and meet the demand for meat. So therein is the catch 22. So our goal is to produce the same delicious meat that's good for us and also good for the world, but that doesn't have the severe environmental implications or the health implications that comes from the intense factory farming.

It's interesting. I mean, what would a vegetarian or a vegan think of this? There are two arguments of course, in that camp. One is the cruelty argument, which is very valid in my opinion. But the other argument is the health argument. So take the cruelty side for a moment. I mean, you're not creating a real animal here. Did you finish walking us through the process of how it's created, how the lab works?

Let me just finish it then in that case. So we, like I said, we take cells that can self renew themselves and then those cells grow into meat. And if we harvest them very early, then the meat is tender. If you harvest them late, it's more texturized. And depending on the products we want to make, we can harvest them at different points in time. And our initial products that we're trying to do and to get on the market are hot dogs, burgers, sausages and meatballs. And these are things we've done a fair amount of R and D on and done multiple prototypes of. And know that once we tasted them, that was our watershed moment, that it tasted exactly like meat. Therefore, we decided to put the four products that we really love to taste as our first products that will come out. As the process evolves and our R and D progresses. With more funding, we definitely intend to do other types of foods as well. It could be a steak, it could be a chicken wing, or it could be something else that is not a sausage or hamburger. So that's the process. Like you said, consumers, I think are eager for a better kind of meat. One they can feel good about eating and also not have the guilt because look, meat tastes really good. And if we can take out or disconnect the animal slaughter from it. I think it takes away the guilt. If that is the reason why somebody is a vegetarian or a vegan, they could certainly think about consuming this product. But what we are trying to do is to really go after the 99.9% of the meat that's being sold out there and say, can we make that better for all of us from a health perspective. That's where I come in as a cardiologist. But there are a number of members on our team that also come at it from different angles. Where can we make this a lot more environmentally friendly? And we already talked about the fact that there's a fraction of the land use or the water use and there is really no animal waste. And one of the big things that comes out from it, Jason, is when we harvest our meat, there is absolutely no fecal contamination which is integral to any meat that's out there. Even for the grass fed cow that's freely grazing out there at the point of slaughter, there is fecal contamination because the feces from the guts mixes with the meat tissue. And that's how E. Coli gets into the food system. Or one of the reasons why that's a big problem with food poisoning. We completely don't even have waste or fecal contamination. So that's one of the big health arguments, that not only could this be better for the environment, but it's also better for us.

It's fascinating. It really is. So how big is this piece of meat that you grow and how small does it? It starts with literally one cell. Right. And how long does it take to make the meat so funny? Like you have to change your thinking in your vocabulary to even discuss the subject. It's just such an odd new concept. But give us an idea as to that. Is there anywhere someone can see a video on this process?

Absolutely. So if you go to our website, memphismats.com There are a few videos you can watch on how the meat has been made or cooked. And there's a video of tasting. There's a lot more information on our website, so I would for sure ask you to go there. There's also videos on YouTube with tens of millions of views about the meatball that we had produced and tasted in January this year. So let me take you back to how long it took to do that meatball. It took us about two to three weeks to grow that meat. And we started with a few cells and we just grew them according to the process I described earlier. And we invited a chef from la, a professional chef, and said, look, here's the meat we have. Make what you like out of it. And we didn't direct him to make a specific product. He chose to make a meatball. He rolled it into a meatball, he put it in a pan, and it was sizzling. And as it was sizzling, the aroma that filled the room was just mouth watering. Subsequent to that, he kind of seasoned it like an Italian meatball and served it on pasta. And we had a taster, again, an independent taster that came to the tasting event. And you can see all of that in the video.

Tell us about the size. It starts as a cell. How big does it get before it's, I guess, harvested is the right word.

The meatball was about 35 grams. So it's a typical size meatball. And it took us about two to three weeks to grow that. And it's a function of funding on how much and how many of these we can grow. We did that in a very small area. Now that we've been funded and we've come to a much larger space in the Bay Area, we expect to be growing larger quantities of meat. And our product is at this point in the R and D. So definitely is much more expensive than something we can put on the market.

How much does that meatball cost? As much as the Hope diamond first one.

Let me give you some context on this. About two and a half, three years ago, there was a scientist from Netherlands. His team, Dr. Mark Post, grew a beef patty, and that was about 100 grams. And it cost, according to the media releases, about $350,000 for that 100 gram burger. So that was about $3,500 a gram. And for the meatball we did, we lowered that price by about 100 times. So it cost us about 35 to $40 a gram. So the whole meatball was about $1,000. And continuing on the same trajectory of our R and D, we expect that price to drop to a few cents per gram over the next five years. So that's our goal. And when we get to that goal of few cents per gram is when we'll be ready for being on the market so people can buy it on the shelves of Whole Foods or Safeways.

Fascinating. It's amazing. It's an amazing time to be alive. Regardless of what you think about this, it's just amazing. So why is it in the R and D stage? I mean, I get the cost issue. Certainly you've got to get into mass production, but is this ready to go? I mean, can people taste cultured Meats anywhere, or is it just totally still in the lab?

So it's still in the R and D phase. And the kind of things you're working in the R and D phase, of course, are we want to lower cost, and we want to be able to cook our meat in different types of traditional meat cooking. So we want to engage chefs, professional chefs in our initial stages and have them take our meat and cook it in any way they'd or normally cooking meat and let us know what works best. And once we finish the testing of growing the meat and scaling it up so we can grow large quantities, as well as finishing our work in the test kitchen so that we know how to season it, we know how to package it, and we know that our shelf life should be longer than conventional meats. Once we kind of do the usual testing that's required by regulatory agencies, then we'll be putting these products out on the market, which is why it's taken a few years. And the speed at which we get to the market is a function of funding, because we feel we worked out the science. And it's an engineering problem where we have to figure out how to scale this up so that we can actually meet the demand that we expect to have for this meat.

It concerns me that you said the meat should last longer instantly. My mind goes to preservatives that are deadly and poisonous. Why would the meat last longer? What would you do to it in terms of your engineering, for lack of a better word of it, that would make it last longer?

Okay, so that's a really important question you asked. So we don't have to do anything to the meat. It's what we don't do to the meat that will help us predict it should last longer. For example, we don't have fecal contamination in there. And the reason why a number of preservatives are added to conventional meats is to prevent the bacteria in there or the fecal contamination that gets in there from really lowering their shelf life. So we would expect to not have that problem. And our prediction is our shelf lives will be longer because we're not dealing with those types of fecal contamination.

Very interesting, very interesting. How much funding did you take on? Is this venture backed now, or give us some ideas to that. And the market size, I'm very curious.

The market size, I'd say, is one of the largest market sizes you can imagine in the world.

I would agree.

It's very relatable to what we all do three to four times a day. And there's already 7 billion people, so the market size is huge and I won't even venture putting a number on it. But in terms of our funding, we are an early stage company. We closed our seed round and we took $3.1 million of funding and we had to turn away a lot of funding because this is what we need to get to our next milestones. But later this year, we'll be raising a much larger round in our Series A.

Do you have a competitor?

Well, I think our competitor at this point is already well established. The conventional meat production that's been happening for the last hundred years I think is in some way our competitor, the conventional meat. I hope that's not how the meat industry will view this because this is a way for them to really meet the demand of the next 3 billion people. And with the demand for meat doubling, the meat industry knows that they can't meet it. And I strongly believe that this will not be a competitive kind of relationship, but in fact, it'll be a collaborative relationship so that we can innovate, so that we can feed the 10 billion people that will be here in a few years from now.

This is totally fascinating. Dr. Uma Valeti, CEO of Memphis Meats, thank you so much for joining us. I wish you luck. I think at the very least, the cruelty and the fecal contamination aspect, if not cost and sustainability, I mean, there's just so many potential benefits to this. I still have a healthy dose of skepticism about the Frankenfood comment, but you've addressed a lot of that and I appreciate it and I want to see you grow and see what comes of this. It's incredibly fascinating. Thanks for joining us.

There are a number of people globally that want to work with us and engage with us and they've been reaching out to us. So I would love if there's people that want to partner with us from the R and D aspect or from just wanting to partner with us when we're ready for distribution or wanting to just be available for our next rounds of funding, please have them reach out to us@foundersemphismeds.com so I just wanted to be sure that we engage everybody that wants to work with us.

Fantastic. Uma Valeti, thanks for joining us.

All right, thank you.

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