HS 393 FBF – Inverted Spirituality with Charles Upton

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It's my pleasure to welcome Charles Upton to the show. He is the author of, and this is a bit of a mouthful, Vectors of the Counter Initiation, the Course and Destiny of Inverted Spirituality. And he's going to talk to us about some pretty interesting stuff today. Charles, welcome. How are you?

I am Doing pretty well. I'm glad to be here.

Good. And you're coming to us from Lexington, Kentucky today? Yes, Fantastic. Beautiful place. Well, hey, tell us about your book and your background a little bit before we kind of dive in deeply.

I've been associated for some years loosely with a school of metaphysicians and writers on comparative religion known as the Traditionalist school. Then now they're starting to be called the Perennialist school. And these people, you could say, were founded by a French philosopher, Rene Guinon, who died in, I think, 1951. And they're magnificent writers on metaphysics, comparative religion, and essentially on the sense that there are common doctrines underlying all the major world religions. The problem with that is when this is made the excuse for amalgamating the religions and doing something on the order of a one world religion or downplaying the differences between the religions, this becomes problematic. But on the highest mystical level, you might say they're all talking about the same reality. And these writers bring this out wonderfully. What these writers do, not entirely, they're not entirely clear on is, is the state of the religions today and what's going on in terms of various attempts by non religious forces to control the religions. I would say I used the term globalists. I think globalists and national governments are exercising a huge amount of control over religions in the guise of we're here to help or let's bring peace between religions and bring everybody together into an interfaith movement. And I've got nothing against interfaith amity and greater understanding between the religions. But this is one of the vectors of the counter initiation which is being used to control religions. And I think religions are being controlled in three ways. First, the major religions are being infiltrated, sometimes very openly. This isn't necessarily a clandestine thing. We're from the Council on Foreign Relations. We like what you're doing, we'd like to help, we'd like to get involved, this kind of thing. Secondly, there are certain belief systems which take the place of religion, or you would say, false religions, which are being, I think, developed in certain globalist think tanks. And I would include among this a lot of the UFO mythology. And also the 2012 Mayan apocalypse shows every sign to my mind of being developed by people who are going to spring this on us. Back in 1987, harmonic convergence, when this whole idea of the Mayan apocalypse started and they were telling us 25 years from now is going to be the big year, 2012. Now we're in 2012. So it's as if the consciousness of millions of people were directed to a predetermined goal over a period of 25 years. And I think this is very consciously being done. And the third, as I've already said, is the interfaith movement, which has got, you know, some very good elements. If it can bring, you know, more understanding on the local level between religious groups so there's less violence, you know, and less paranoia, this is wonderful. But when the religions are being brought together by non religious authority, which is happening more and more all the time, and there's a temptation for the religions to soft play any doctrines that separate them, which means they're essentially aiding each other in the deconstruction of each other's religion and of their own religion. And the amount of control being exercised in this manner over religions today is more than I think almost anybody is fully aware of. Everybody's ready for repression, for taking all the Jews to concentration camps, for prohibiting the practice of certain religions. That's not the way it's. And that's what the Bill of Rights was designed to protect us against. That's not what's happening. It's being done through co optation and through surveillance.

And so what is the ultimate goal of this though? I mean, what do they want to do? Do they want to destabilize the religions? Well, I know, but they want to make the religions get stronger so that they can control people through the religions or destabilize the religion.

I don't think what they do is in any way strengthening the religions. They're just saying that there are certain ideas and beliefs they want to disseminate. And it's easy to do it through already existing religions who are already talking to millions and billions of people. I mean, they're doing that. And if they can exercise control over the religions, they feel they can control the populations the religions represent. And if the religions are destroyed or perverted in the process, they don't care. They're not interested in destroying the religions. No, they're interested in using the religions any way they can to gain control over the populations. These Now I'm myself, I'm a Muslim and I'm a Sufi. And so I can see Sufism is defined as the mystical aspect of Islam, which is generally true. But what I can see is that Sufism is being defined as the tolerant, universal, peaceful Islam as opposed to the bad Islamic terrorists, which is true up to a point, because the people who develop the aspects of Islam from whom the terrorists have developed essentially the Wahhabi movement and other similar movements have no love for the Sufis and haven't for a long time. So there's a real conflict there. But this conflict is being exploited by outside forces of the Western powers and the globalists so as to define the Sufis as almost not Muslims anymore, but universalists, and say, essentially, we'll help you Sufis, you know, we love what you're doing because you're tolerant and you're peaceful and you can, you know, we'll invite you to our conferences and we'll support you. And because we don't want these Islamic terrorists to gain any more power do. We are a common enemy. And in fact, if you don't open yourselves to our help and, you know, and take a certain amount of guidance from us, maybe we'll have to reevaluate you. Maybe we should put you on the other list. Maybe we should consider you to be dangerous groups that we could, you know, we should be putting under greater surveillance and worrying about. So you'll go with us, won't you? You know, and a lot of this is not very always explicitly stated, but this is the carrot stick approach that I can see happening in my own backyard.

How did you develop this sort of. This interest in the kind of the dark side of spirituality?

Oh, well, you know, I'm 63 years old. I went through the counterculture. I saw a lot of destruction. I was raised as a Catholic, and I saw, not quite realizing what it was at the time that the Catholic Church was essentially deconstructed by the Second Vatican Council. It was destroyed. And now what we have is a shell of what it used to be, with all the buildings and the structure, but the doctrine and the spirituality of it is largely dead. In fact, somewhere in my book, I'm talking about. Let me see if I've got a quote from you.

And what year did that happen? Just give us a year.

That was 1963.

Did you say 63?

63, yeah. And since then, except for a few people who. Little groups who maintain what Catholicism used to be, the church has been all downhill. So essentially, the Pope recently came out with a. Let me see, I'm trying to find it here, an encyclical which calls essentially for one world government. It's called Caritas and Veritate. And then, yeah, here we are. And then one of his main groups, a Vatican organization called. It's the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. This is an official Vatican document which came out last year, and I'm quoting from it here. It says one can See an emerging requirement for a body that will carry out the functions of a kind of central world bank that regulates the flow on system of monetary exchanges similar to a national central bank. The stages in the creation of this bank ought to be conceived of as some of the first steps in view of a public authority with universal jurisdiction, which is another way of saying a one world government in a world on its way to rapid globalization. The reference to a world authority becomes the only horizon compatible with the new realities of our time and the needs of humankind. However, it should not be forgotten that that this development, given wounded human nature will not come about without anguish and suffering. Through the account of the Tower of Babel in Genesis, the Bible warns us how the diversity of peoples can turn into a vehicle for selfishness and an instrument of division. The image of the Tower of Babel also warns us that we must avoid a unity that is only apparent where selfishness and divisions endure. Now this sounds like the Communist Manifesto or some kind of manifesto. This does not sound like religion to me, or definitely not like Catholicism. And if you know what it says in Genesis about the Tower of Babel, this document is saying the Tower of Babel shows the problems with diversity, with the confusion of tongues. What they forget is the confusion of tongues was created by God himself. Now I go on to say universal world authority brought about through anguish and suffering, where diversity is in effect outlawed. A true imposed unification is what the Novus Ordo Catholic Church, that's what we call it nowadays, is openly calling for. Here the Tower of Babel is used as an image of the evils of diversity symbolized by the confusion of tongues. What these so called Catholics conveniently forget is that the confusion of tongues was ordained by God himself. He prevented the completion of the Tower not to end a true organic unity, but to terminate a false Promethean unification. So you know, it goes on. And this is what God said about the Tower of Babel in Genesis. And the Lord said, behold, the people is one and they have all one language. And this is what they do, which means build a city and a tower whose top would reach to heaven. And now nothing will be restrained from them which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down and there confound their language that they may not understand one another's speech. So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth. Now this is an official Vatican document which has completely inverted the obvious meaning of Scripture in the most cynical way imaginable, calling for a one world government by Inverting the meaning of the Bible itself. And that's the counter initiation. Now the counter initiation was a term invented by Rene Guynone. He was seeing this happening in small because he, between the wars went to almost every occult or esoteric group he could find in France at that time between the world wars. And he came out and saying this is a world of evil. And he wrote some exposes about it later. He, like me, he was raised a Catholic. He later became a Muslim and a Sufi and ended his life in Egypt. But you know, for a while he was doing some exposes on these groups and he called them the counter initiation. At this point they were just some shadowy secret societies that seemed to have dark agendas. Whereas now these secret societies have come out and are more openly expressing themselves in the globalist arena. One of the best books that details that is one that I edited, it's by a friend of mine, Lee Penn. It's called False the United Religions Initiative, Globalism and the Quest for a One World Religion. So you know, there's a massive and very successful attempt to pervert and take over religions. And this is an example of it coming right out of the Vatican. But it's not limited to the Catholics by any means because the globalists are attempting to take over in one way or another every religion, what they're doing. And with Islam they seem to be supporting the Sufis whereas attacking the Islamic terrorists. But now we see in the Arab Spring and in Syria we are supporting elements of Al Qaeda. The US is supporting elements of Al Qaeda maybe by default, but probably by design, who are involved in the opposition against all the dictators. We've decided to go over to the other side, not maintain the old dictators but co opt the movement against them. That was the idea. So we're talking out of. The United States is talking out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to being against Islamic terrorism. We're against it when it's in our interests and we'll support it when it's in our interests.

That doesn't surprise me a bit though. It really doesn't. Well, good.

I'm glad.

It's scary though, this one world government stuff. In your book I believe you talk about the environmental movement and what that involvement is. I've got some of my own ideas. I'd love to hear yours about it.

Well, I mean, obviously we have serious environmental problems.

I've got a few notes here. Let me go back and see. I quoted something from. Yeah, my chapter on that starts like this. Wars inevitably produce three things. Profiteering, deception, and a curtailment of human rights. And the war to save the Earth from environmental catastrophe is no exception. I mean, the environment of the Earth is in great jeopardy, there's no question about that. But the people who deny global warming do it because. Partly because they understand that even if they don't want there to be global warming, because they understand that global warming is being used as an excuse to curtail our freedoms and to control us further. And so it's easier for them to say it's not happening. I think it is happening. Certainly the question about how much it's human action and how much it's. I mean, there have been changes seen on other planets.

Of course there have. I mean, there's so many.

Something may be happening with the sun, you know, in a larger cycle than we're aware of. But I'm not saying that human action hasn't had a devastating effect on the environment, because it has, it's obvious. But this is all being used as an excuse. It's like with the Aztecs. The Aztecs said to themselves, if we don't, you know, sacrifice a thousand people this month and tear their hearts out and offer them up to the gods, the sun will go out. You know, and we're getting a similar thing now. You know, we have to sacrifice the human race to save the Earth. And the proposals of some of the more radical depopulationists are horrible. I mean, they're talking about forced depopulation on a massive scale. And, you know, these are people who have the ear of governments. These are not just like Bill Gates.

In his TED speech, you know, with that little slip. Yeah. I mean, that has to be the ultimate conclusion of the environmental movement, is people are bad. We've got to reduce the population. You know, if you look at the Georgia Guidestones, they say, get it down to 500 million people. That means a lot of people have to go and, you know, 100 million left.

It's going to be the elite.

Yeah, yeah. I just keep wondering.

It's going to be the big guys.

I just keep wondering who gets to decide this question. Who goes and who doesn't?

You know, there's some, you know, some of the more paranoid among us will say that, you know, there's a deliberate introduction of chemicals into our air and water that reduce fertility, you know, and don't know if that's true. You know, is that what chemtrails are all about? I don't know. I haven't followed chemtrails. But some people say this.

Okay, well, so any more on the environmental movement that you wanted to mention?

Well, it's essentially the dark side of it. And of course there's a light side of it. There's wonderful things the environmental movement is doing on a grassroots level where people themselves are involved and where it's not being handed down by the powers that be. But it's almost like a return to human sacrifice. There were early pagan cults in which human babies or human adults were sacrificed for the gods, sometimes for a goddess. And this is like human sacrifice in the cult of Gaia. And it's pretty dark. And it is like the Aztecs, I hate to say. So that's basically the point I'm making. And what I do then I have a second part of the chapter where I'm looking at the Quran and talking about what a spiritual and God based environmentalism would look like. That's entirely traditional to Islam. It doesn't mean that this is the way most Muslims think. But it's all there in the Quran if you can point it out. And I just want to make a point that I'm not saying environmentalism is bad. I'm saying it's being used for a terrible purpose right now.

No question. I certainly agree. I think it's another one of the tools in, as you have aptly pointed out, is religion is a control tool.

Yeah. And the religions are all supposed to go green now. And all the Sufis are supposed to be green. And you go to these nice traditional Sufi orders. They used to have nice traditional websites. Now they say Sufism is green. Well, I mean, fine, don't, you know, dispose of your garbage. Don't use too much resources. That's all fine. But they're falling for a globalist ideology that they do not understand is destructive to their own spirituality and to their own autonomy. You know, when the religions, you know, we may never get a one world religion, literally, but the idea is to put the religions under a secular authority, to federate them under a secular authority. Not long ago I phoned the Council on Foreign Relations just to see what I could turn up by having with the receptionist. And I talked about various things like this and she said, well, of course I cannot officially comment and blah, blah, blah. But then she referred, this is very telling, she referred to the various religions of the world as constituencies.

Constituencies, yeah, yeah, like political.

Must have gotten together and voted in the Council on Foreign Relations into power at some time, which I don't recall that. But you know, that's the Way she looked at it.

Well, that's not untrue, that constituency comment, is it?

Well, that's the way they look at the religion and religions. See, once religions start to define themselves as.

Ways of asserting cultural identity, you hear this all the time. These are cultural identities. That's already atheism talking. Religions aren't. So I am a Muslim because I want to feel like a Muslim, identify with Muslims and dress like a Muslim and act like a Muslim and be a Muslim. And my Muslim gang coming down the street under our flag will run into that Hindu gang coming down the street under their flag. And, you know, we're the Muslims and they're the Hindus, and we go after each other with baseball bats. That is the destruction of religion. Religion is our way of relating to God. It is not first a political entity. Of course, it's always at a political aspect. But if you put the politics first or you give it too much prominence, particularly if you're doing it the way that the global elites want you to do it, the way they want to politicize religion, they then you're destroying it as a way of relating to God. It becomes something that has no reason to exist.

Very interesting, very interesting. Take. Well, what else would you like people to know about this? Now you've got some other books too, right?

Yeah, I got a bunch of books. What, 17 or something like that?

Yeah. Well, that's enough. 17's a lot, for sure.

Well, in line with this, this is a sequel, I would say, to a book I wrote in 2001 called the System of Truth and Falsehood and Postmodernism in the New Age. In that book, I was wr. My way out of the counterculture. I was looking at a lot of belief systems that I had held at that time, you know, like the Course in Miracles and the channeled Seth material and Deepak Chopra and Carlos Castaneda, whom I met once. And I was meticulously deconstructing these belief systems and showing where in relation to traditional metaphysics, which is at the basis of all the world religions, they are sometimes right, but very often wrong. And that was the first part of it. The second part of it was comparative eschatology. We're looking at the end time prophecies from eight different religions, world religions, and just bringing them together.

Do they all have end time prophecies?

Oh, yes. Oh, okay. There's more material on the literal, canonical, official material on the Antichrist in Islam than there is in Christianity. You know, the Prophet Muhammad talked a great deal about the Antichrist it is official Muslim doctrine that at the end of this age the prophet Jesus will return from the dead and slay the Antichrist and that this is Muslim doctrine that all orthodox Muslims believe. This is something that is not known very much so. Anyway, I looked at a lot of similarities in the Apocalypse. There's the figure, the rider on the white horse, whose name is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, who's identified with Christ. You go to, I think it's the Vishnu Purana, one of the Hindu Puranas. You find exactly the same language. It's the Kalki Avatara will come at the end of time on a white horse. And his name is the beginning and the end. And I don't know who got it from who or whether they both got it from a vision of the same reality, but that's pretty interesting. I do a lot of comparative eschatology like that and you find Antichrist figures. There's even an Antichrist figure in Tibetan Buddhism.

Not called Antichrist.

But it's amazing that it could be that similar. It really is.

Yeah. And it's important to recognize the differences and not gloss over them because they're extremely important. They're providential. God wants it to be that way. But the similarities are also very striking.

Well, Charles, give out your website and tell people where they can get the books and learn more.

Well, my website is that of my publisher which is www.sophiaparenas.s O P H I A P E R R E N N I S.com youm can get my books on Amazon or Barnes and Noble and also if you Google Charles Upton YouTube you can get a bunch of my YouTube videos, three of which are devoted to advertising vectors of the counter initiation which are titled Alex Jones Learn Metaphysics one, two and three.

Okay. Was Alex Jones involved in that?

No, I'm just lobbying him.

Sure.

Yeah.

That's good, Good stuff. Well, Charles Upton, thank you so much for joining us today.

Okay, good to talk to you.

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