HS 430 - Cultivate Grit with Angela Duckworth

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Every 10th episode we do something kind of special, kind of different. What we do is we go off topic. So regardless of which show it is on the Hartman Media Network, whether it be one of the financial shows, economics, real estate, investing, travel, longevity, all of the other topics that we have, every 10th episode we go off topic and.

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Our guest with a special 10th episode show. And of course, on the next episode we'll be back to our regular programming. Here we go. It's my pleasure to welcome Angela Duckworth to the show. She is a Christopher H. Brown Distinguished professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance the science and practice of character development. She's a New York Times best selling author of the Power of Passion and Perseverance. Angela, welcome. How are you?

I'm fine. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's good to have you on the show. So, you know, when I think of character, I often wonder to my somewhat cynical and discouraged self if many people have it anymore.

It is. I don't know, I must, I must be getting old because I'm starting to think of myself as kind of old fashioned when it comes to things like integrity and keeping one's promises. And the world seems pretty transient nowadays. Am I wrong about that? Am I getting too cynical or nostalgic? I don't know.

I will begin by just saying that I do think of grit and character a lot. I've got two girls of my own at home and When I think about what I want them to grow up to be, they're teenagers now in high school, and I would hope that they end up being grit. But also, you know, all the other things that I think of when I think of character, I want them to be kind and honest and curious and open minded and compassionate. The list goes on. Now, are we in a crisis of character in this moment in history? I will say that many people have said that we are. But it's also true that a thousand years ago, 2,000 years ago, people were also lamenting the crisis of character of their time.

I agree. And you know, I'll tell you, that is the one thing about reading scripture that you tell that human nature hasn't changed much. Maybe the technology has changed, the world has changed, but human nature is pretty similar to the way it was 2,000 years ago, isn't it?

I think that's exactly right. And you know, the challenges that face us, of course, you know, technology introduces new ones, you know, global politics. But with respect to grit, for example, you know, I think grit is always going to be relevant because achievement doesn't come easier now than it ever did. You know, doing anything that is worthwhile, I do think takes much more time and a lot more failure than many people are willing to invest.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so look, character has more dimensions than I started off with. And I want to let you share, Angela, if you would, some of those dimensions with our audience. To me, when I think of the word character, it like resonates, you know, integrity, honesty. But it's a lot more than that, isn't it?

Character, you could argue, is infinitely plural. In other words, you know, we could just talk all night, all day, the next day, and again, and we'd not run out of things that we would say, oh, yeah, let's add that to the list. But I do think there are three families of characters strengths, and anybody can remember three. And that's one reason why I love that the data on character that I've collected on kids in particular falls this way. Grit is like self control and optimism and growth. Mindset is a strength of will. It's a whole family of character strengths that enable you to get things done. And I think it is important, but not the most important dimension of character, probably more important than strengths of will or strengths of heart. And they include, as you mentioned, integrity, but also gratitude, emotional intelligence, generosity, all the things that enable us to have healthy and harmonious relationships with other people. And then finally, there are strengths of mind, curiosity, creativity, intellectual Humility. I think these are strengths that enable you to really be a free person, you know, to think for yourself and to always be learning. So I think as a mother and as a scientist, strengths of will and strengths of heart and strengths of mind are the three things that, you know, we should be thinking about when we think about how to help young people grow up.

Good. Good stuff. So character has a lot of dimensions. It's very pluralistic. Is it subject to the whim of fashion or judgment? Or are there certain hard truths, absolute truths about character?

I think of character as perennial. You know, when you read ancient Greek philosophy or, you know, whatever your religious tradition, if you have one. Of course, some people don't, but, you know, you read the scriptures of your tradition, you read novels. I mean, the constants are really what stand out to me. And the idea that across all human cultures and across all historical periods, people have cared about these strengths of heart of mind and will, you know, to me, say that a thousand years from now, we'll still want children to grow up to be people who are exemplary in these three ways of being human. We do want them to do hard things and to get things done. We want them to care about other people, and we want them to have a very open and kind of fertile life of the mind.

Does character get rewarded in today's culture? It sure feels, and I'm guessing a lot of listeners will agree with this, it feels like sort of seizing the moment. And I say that in a negative way. You know, seizing opportunity, being opportunistic, sadly, is. No, it's not always bad, of course, but that seems to be rewarded more. Many parts of our pop culture are certainly very shallow, you know, sort of transient and superficial and just sure doesn't seem like it's very much about character anymore nowadays. Is it rewarded? You know, when we talk about things like cause and effect and how, you know, what comes around, goes around, Just kind of speak to that, if you would. I don't know what question to ask, but it's just a sort of a topic.

Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I think the most important thing about character is that it is its own reward. You know, when you talk to a little kid about being honest, you know, you're not saying, hey, be honest. One day you'll get into Stanford. You know, be honest. It's important to be honest, you know, you know, share your toys. It's important to share. It's important to be a generous person. Even if you don't get an extra toy the next time around because somebody spotted you being generous. So I think, in a way, I do agree, by the way, that the word character has somewhat gone out of fashion. We sometimes use it in conversation or in op eds, but we don't talk about it as much, I think, as was talked about, say, 50 or 100 years ago, when really this emphasis on your character and doing the right thing, even when it wasn't easy, would be part of even education. The stories kids would read in school. I hope it becomes a kind of at the tip of your tongue word. Because when we use the word character, it's not to wag a finger at people and say, you know, I'm holier than thou. It's just to say that, you know, how you show up in the world and the choices that you make are things that you should take responsibility for. And you should always strive, I think, to be developing your character, whether you're 2, 22 or 82.

I like how you say it's its own reward. And that's a great statement. It really is. I want to kind of move off of the way we've talked about character so far in a moment and really get to this subject of the grit which is the basis of your book. You know, the power of passion and perseverance and kind of dive into that. But before we kind of completely leave this topic, when I saw that you were going to be on the show, it reminded me of something that influenced me really as a 17 and 18 year old a lot. And I think it helped set a course for my life. I originally heard this from Dr. Dennis Whateley, an old fashioned motivational speaker. And he quoted in one of his books Madame Shanghai Shek. Maybe you know what I'm going to say, but I'd just like to share this little piece and, you know, maybe you can talk about it in the more modern context. And she said, if the past has taught us anything, it is that every cause brings its effect. Every action has a consequence. We Chinese have a saying, if a man plants melons, he will reap melons. If he sows beans, he will reap beans. And this is true of everyone's life. Good begets good and evil leads to evil. True enough, the sun shines on the saint and the sinner alike. And too often it seems that the wicked prosper. But we can say with certainty that with the individual as with the nation, the flourishing of the wicked is an illusion. For unceasingly, life keeps books on us all. In the end, we are the sum total of our actions. Character cannot be counterfeited, nor can it be put on and cast off as if it were a garment to meet the whim of the moment. Like the markings on wood which are ingrained in the very heart of the tree, character requires time and nurturing for growth and development. Thus also, day by day, we write our own destiny. For inexorably, we become what we do. Thoughts on that? You've probably heard that before, I'm sure.

Beautiful. I've never heard that before. You know, my grandfather was a general in the Kuomintang, and he may have heard it before, but didn't overlap that much in lifespan. So thank you for sharing that with me. You know, I think when you ask the question about whether what comes around goes around, you know, is character rewarded? And you know, then I reflect on that beautiful passage. I think one reason why the wicked don't prosper, it's not that, you know, oh, they're not going to get the signing bonus, you know, they won't have the title next to their name. Well, maybe, maybe they will. But I think in the final reckoning of a life, you really can't escape the character that you work to develop and to have during your lifetime. I mean, if you did wrong and you were not a person to be proud of, you know, that is the truth. And I think that's probably what she meant. I can only guess. And I think that's the way I try to, you know, convey its importance to my own, my own kids. And I was a teacher before I was a psychologist or a mother. And you know, when you explain to a kid, you know, why they shouldn't cheat on a test, it's hard to make the case based on the short term rewards.

I mean, you know.

It'S a very hard case to make because, you know, we, we always have to make these decisions and, and look, I mean, my primary business is working with investors and the whole concept of investing is delaying gratification, right? And that's what really separates the children from the adults, if you will. And there are many children walking around in adult bodies, as we all know.

I couldn't agree more. And it's all like one big marshmallow test, the famous psychological test where four year olds have to wait for the experimenter to come back into the room so they can have two marshmallows instead of one right away. And I've actually conducted that test with a secret camera. When you're watching the kids, you know.

Wriggle and writhe, and in some ways, it's not just investing, but, you know, all of character is a big exercise in delay of gratification, meaning that there is something you can do that's quicker, easier, or shortcut in the sense that it makes you better off. Like right now, it's a big temptation. But being an honest person, you know, giving things to people who need them, being gritty, working hard to learn, these are things that pay off and in ways that aren't always immediately obvious, but I think are so very important.

Absolutely, absolutely. So, Angela, let's kind of talk about grit, because I think that's a pretty good segue to the subject of grit. Now, first of all, can you define grit? What does that mean, really?

Grit to me is a combination of perseverance and passion for a meaningful long term goal. It is working incredibly hard toward that goal, but not because you have to in the sense that someone else is asking you to, but because you want to, because it's something that you love.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, good. So how does one develop that?

I think the development of grit begins early on with kids who have role models of people in their lives. And some lucky kids have these role models in their own home. Their parents who come home from work and talk about what went well, what didn't go well, clearly have a passion for what they do. And they have bad days, they have good days, and they get back up again. I think that's the very beginning of learning grit. I think for many of us, we have a teacher in our life who really put us on the right path, maybe a coach if we play a sport as a kid. I think these influences collectively shape our own capacity to work at things and to constantly, you know, get up again after setbacks. And sometimes, you know, the setbacks are the dramatic kind of the movie moments of a long career. But there's also just those long stretches where, you know, you're putting in, putting in effort and maybe things aren't going terribly, but they're not going as well as you'd like either. So I think over the course of our life, we learn a lot. We learn a lot from other people.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you talk about showing up and being distracted by talent, how effort counts twice. Take us through some of that.

Talent, when I use the word, is the rate at which you get better at something. When you try some kids, some grownups, you know, they try something and they get so much better, so much faster than others. And I think we can look at those people and fairly say they have Talent. The thing is about talent is that it can be a distraction, it can become an excuse. Oh, you know, I didn't do well on my first software. I don't have the gift that this other kid had. So I'll never be as good. And that's an excuse for me to kind of, you know, slack off a little bit. It turns out that yes, some people are already better at things than you are. Maybe they get better faster than you are, but there's an enormous role for effort, sustained effort over time. And I hope that our culture wide obsession with talent and being a natural and being gifted doesn't overshadow the importance of grit in long term achievement.

Okay, so here, here's a concept I want to see if you agree with this. I have a feeling you will, Angela, but I think, well, let me kind of tee this up this way. Okay. So when I really used to train entrepreneurs and salespeople on marketing especially, you know, they would always come and say, you know, what's the best idea? What's the most unique thing, you know, you can do that you can send out to your list or whatever, right? Everybody's looking for the magic pill, right? You know?

Yeah.

And I would, I would basically say, look, if you want to be different, if you want to stand out above your competition, if you want to be different, be consistent, because that's really different. Most people are into the marketing idea of the week, you know, the marketing idea du jour, you know, and really consistency just wins the day, you know, and so I would argue that grit is a talent. You know, forget about that prima donna who's a natural, right? You know, how about the person who's just gritty, who just shows up every day and works really hard and just keeps their nose to the grindstone. And, you know, I think it was like the actor Will Smith, maybe I might be true be doing that wrong. But do you know what I'm going to say? You know, he says, look at, I know there's a lot of people smarter than me, better looking than me, but.

I'll just outwork you, you know, 100%. You're exactly right. I actually have pictures of Will Smith in my office just to remind me of his poetic, you know, he gets almost philosophical and he starts talking about how he's become who he's become. And I love what you just said. You know, consistency sounds like the least sexy thing there could be, right? And I have a sociologist friend who calls the mundanity of excellence. And when you really look under the hood of a great ballet performance, you know, a novel that you can't put down. There is consistency and consistency and consistency. There's this, you know, slogging away. Will Smith would call it beating on your craft. And he says that, you know, one of the biggest mistakes people make is they confuse skill and talent. You know, talent may be something he says, you know, that you're gifted with, but that doesn't mean that you're going to be skilled because skills, hours and hours of beating on that craft. So, yeah, if there is some way that we could communicate this that would make it as exotic or fun for entrepreneurs to embrace, I would. But really it's not, it's not a glamorous thing to wake up at whatever hour and go at it again and again and again.

Yeah, yeah, but that is a talent. Being willing to delay gratification, to be gritty, to work hard without instant rewards is a talent. That is the talent. Right. You know, granted, there are naturals, there are people that just have more gifts than others in some areas, there's no question about that. But that's what people usually think of as talent. They usually don't think of it the way we just talked about it, do they?

Well, you know, the word talent is a beautiful word. It's a word that, you know, when we hear it, you know, our ears perk up. I don't know a single company or organization in the universe who isn't looking for talent. But what is that word? I mean, in biblical times, it meant an ingot of, I think, silver. And it was like literally a unit of currency. And then of course, we have the parable of the talents, you know, the servant who gets more talents and reaps more right from the Bible. So what is this word? I mean, some of us are just using it as like basically a good thing to have. But I would just say that whatever words we're using, if we can honor the discipline of earning greater and greater skill over time, I think that's the. That is exactly right, what you said, that it's the rare athlete, the rare musician, the rare CEO, the rare fill in the blank who can maintain that consistency of their dedication over time. There are millions of people who can pull an all nighter, you know, for a couple of nights, but that's not really what. Yeah, they burn out. You know, that's not somebody I want to, you know, outsource work to.

Right, right. No, life is a marathon, not a sprint, no question about it. But some people are probably listening. Angela and asking themselves, well, how? How do I do that? What are the steps to that? You know, unpack that idea. How do I do it if I'm not gritty? And, you know, I get the idea, hey, it sounds important to me. How do I do it?

You know.

The first step is to diagnose, you know, what it is specifically that is hindering your grit. If it's a lack of curiosity and interest in what you do, if you feel bored by your job, if you feel like, you know, honestly, you haven't learned anything in a very long time, then I would say, okay, let's work on interest and curiosity. For some people, it's going to mean switching careers because they're just not intrigued intrinsically by what they're doing. But for many of us, it's a shift in our mindset to say, you know, what, this job, whatever it is that I do, there's no reason I can't constantly be learning. There's no reason that I can't be listening to podcasts that would help me get better. Read books that have them, go to conferences, you know, organize a happy hour for people who do what I do. So the beginnings of passion are interesting. Curiosity. I think we can work on that if that's our problem, if it's really more about purpose. Because what happens in the development of passion is that people tend to start, you know, oh, I'm kind of interested in this, like, you know, making money thing or leadership thing. But at some point, if you don't find it also purposeful, meaningful, and usually that means connected to other people, you know, why am I doing this? You know, in the short time I have on the planet, like. Like, what's the significance of it? Then you'll also not feel passion. And I would say that we can likewise do things to kind of rekindle purpose if we've felt like we've lost it. One of the things I love when companies do is they simply ask customers to write notes of any kind of comment, but including gratitude to people who've helped them. And of course, you know, sometimes those notes can be, you know, I wish you had done this. But so often it's, you know, hey, I really appreciated it when you did that. And that can really help keep the purpose front and center and not be overlooked. If you feel like, oh, I've got passion in hand. I'm a very committed person to what I'm doing. I just don't feel like I'm a very hard worker. I feel like I'm not Nearly, you know, achieving my potential. Then I would take a page out of the lesson book that Olympic athletes and world class musicians use and I would start practicing like those experts. They practice in a way that's called in science, deliberate practice. They zero in on a specific weakness and then they drill that with feedback and repetition and, you know, they crawl up the learning curve. And whatever you do, you know, you don't have to be an athlete or maybe you're an accountant, maybe you're a teacher. You too can identify one tiny sub skill of what you do and then work on it with repetition and feedback and just get better a little bit every day. I would say those are some ways that you can self diagnose where you think your grit is weakest and then do something about it.

Yeah. Very, very good points, Angela. This has been a very inspiring conversation and there are certainly loads of books on the subject. Yours has incredibly good reviews, by the way. Congratulations. Almost 1100 reviews and four and a half stars. So that's. That's pretty good. That's pretty darn good.

Thank you so much.

I will say this, there are a lot of books out there on, you know, how to do things better. And most of them, I will say, they're written by guys and I read them and I was like, oh, I like this. But I can hear the voice of the author. It's like a guy. And I was like, I'm a girl. I'm gonna write this book in my voice and it's the voice of, you know, a woman.

And I.

Anyway, I wrote the book that I wanted to read.

Yeah, good, Good stuff, Good stuff. Well, tell everybody what your website is. You, of course the book is available in all the usual places, but you probably have a direct website, right?

I have a website that I would like people to visit because it's nonprofit and everything on it is completely free. And it's characterlab.org and we are supported by foundations and we're trying to give science away for free and turn science into actionable advice so you can learn about grit and you can learn about other aspects of character and there are no commercials and you can do whatever you want with what you find there.

Fantastic. Angela Duckworth, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. I so enjoyed the conversation.

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