HS 441 FBF - "Programming The Nation" with Film Director Jeff Warrick

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It'S my pleasure to welcome Jeff Warrick to the show. He is the filmmaker behind Programming the Nation, which is about the history of subliminal messaging in America. And you know, I remember in high school we were talking in class one day about a book and on the COVID of the book, and I'm sure we're going to cover that in Interview with Jeff was a picture of an alcoholic drink. I think maybe it was vodka, I'm not sure. And in the ice cubes you saw the letters S E X and I'm sure all of you listening have probably seen this very famous example of subliminal messaging. But after watching the film just a few days ago myself, I learned that there's a lot more to subliminal Messaging than just putting it in print ads or flicking the word Coke or popcorn on the movie screen real fast. So we're going to learn about that today with Jeff and I think you'll find this interview to be very interesting. Jeff, welcome. How are you?

Good, thanks. Thanks for having me, Jason. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. So you are in the Southern California area because you are premiering in Los Angeles right about now for the film. And then you've also, I believe, done New York and San Francisco's next. Is that how it's going?

Yes, exactly. New York premiered in August last month and LA is at the Laemmle Sunset 5 in West Hollywood. So we're real excited about that. Followed by San Francisco.

Fantastic. Well, tell us, what is subliminal? Just maybe. Let's start with kind of the basics. What is subliminal messaging or subliminal advertising?

Well, I think for most people, the term subliminal, most people think of like what you just described, the sex in the ice cubes, phalluses hidden in tobacco and alcohol ads and things like that, as well as the blipping of popcorn or Coke on theater screens. Our film takes kind of a much wider, more broad approach to explore kind of the history of this in a wide variety of areas. I mean, it covers the alleged history of some of these things that we just discussed and there's some validity to it and a lot of examples of that. But it goes much further, exploring things like subliminals in motion pictures, for example, and rock music. Advertising is covered very, very thoroughly by a lot of experts as well as politics, government, political propaganda that uses subliminal techniques and kind of advanced weapons technolog. So, yeah, we cover a wide territory.

Yeah. And when you talk about advanced weapons, we recently had Nick Bagich on the show and I know he was in, in your film as well. So we talked about harp and all that stuff. So the listeners heard about that. But tell us more. I mean, first of all, you probably believe this is being used on the population. There are some who don't, some who think this is just a coincidence. It's kind of like in the film, I know you covered the part about playing the music backwards and so forth. Right. A lot of people think, oh, that's, come on, it's just a big coincidence. What are your thoughts? I mean, can we know definitively if these images and so forth are really being placed in advertising and this is really happening, or is it really subject to debate?

Well, I think it is very debatable. And I mean, let Me start by saying I went into this as a skeptic myself. I actually thought it would be kind of fun to debunk the whole subliminal messaging theory. And when I started interviewing some of our experts, I found that my own predisposed notions were kind of flipped upside down and started doing a complete 180 on my philosophy and my belief on this stuff. Clearly there's plenty of examples that it's being used. I don't think that's even a doubt in my mind at all anymore. How it gets inserted, why it's inserted, those are all questions that I still have that I did not walk away with in the production of a documentary. I mean, for example, in Disney films there's a lot of examples of this. Why is it put there? I mean, I don't think Walt Disney sent a commanding order down to his, his graphic designers and his artists who insert this stuff. Maybe it's disgruntled artists that are doing it, but it's clearly there.

Maybe it's like a computer hacker who's just playing a joke or something like that.

Absolutely. I mean, there could be a variety of reasons, but I think when it comes to and in music, I mean there's clear examples of it being used as well as in advertising and in government and politics and by our military. So it's clearly being used. I found more than enough evidence and give plenty of examples of ways that it's being used in all these areas. The question is really still for me, what effect does this have on people? And so that's kind of what we try to explore in the film.

Yeah, well, before you go to what effect it has on people, which we definitely want to talk about that, give us some examples of maybe some more specific examples. I gave some general ones and so did you, of where it's being used or where you think it's most likely true and maybe less subject to debate whether it's there or not.

Well, one of the most eye opening sessions for me in the film and information that I learned was the fact that it was at one point being used in department stores as an anti theft technique. Using it as what was called a black box. I mean, there was a Time magazine article that was written in 1979 about an inventor by the name of Halsey Becker who invented this black box that basically uses subliminal messaging in department stores. Whispered messages below the threshold of consciousness, saying things like, I am honest, I do not, not steal repetitively over and over again while people are shopping and the Article actually goes on to explain how it significantly reduced shoplifting rates in a number of department stores that it was being tested in. So since then, it's kind of gone underground. I did attempt to try to go into a few stores to see if it's being used and kind of some humorous moments in the film with me trying to explore that, but could not get any answers on it. So that's just one area that people are totally unaware of. And if you think about it, a lot of people might do well, big deal. So, you know, I walk into a store and they're whispering these messages.

That's a good thing that people aren't stealing, right? Or shoplifting.

It's a good thing. But at the same time, I mean, let's face it, the effects of subliminal messaging are really vast. It really varies, I think, from person to person and what type of effect it has. It can be all over the map. I mean, our minds are very unexplored areas, just like the universe in a lot of ways. You know, how much do we know about that? Our minds are kind of very similar to that. I like making that comparison because people kind of. But I think that if you're walking into a department store and they're using messages that without your knowledge, there should be some kind of a disclaimer on the window that at least lets you know, hey, they're using these kind of techniques. And if you think about what other messages could they be sending us? I mean, they could use just as easily insert messages like buy more, shop more. There's an excellent sale going on on aisle 11. So I mean, those are things that I would be concerned about with that.

Kind of technology, the government using it. I mean, that's interesting. What is the government doing?

Well, I think with government propaganda in general, a lot of it is kind of happens at a subconscious level. But we found some really clear examples of subliminal messaging in some ads that were run in the 2000 election. For example, there was an ad by the Republican National Committee for George W. Bush, his campaign, which blipped the words rats. It was actually using the end of the word bureaucrats. But it was discussing the difference in philosophies between the health care plans that the Democrats and the Republicans had. And it clearly was on screen for about, I don't know, 1/30 of a second. And, you know, it was outraged when people saw this. I mean, it was actually ran for about one and a half news cycles. And Bush actually had to step forward and Defend himself on this, on these claims.

And then he couldn't say the word subliminal properly when he tried to.

Which actually is an excellent way of, you know, no plausibility or how could he have had any been involved if you can't even pronounce the word right?

Yeah, he seemed too dumb to understand the concept. Yeah, that was kind of funny. It really was. So maybe this stuff is being used. What was interesting that I learned from the film is about the history of it, when I guess the first example, if I recall correctly, was the movie theater example in the 50s. Right. And a lot of people have heard about this.

The Vickery Experiment.

The Vickery experiment, yeah. Okay. And a lot of people heard about this at one time or another. But just in case they haven't, or to refresh their memory, why don't you tell them what happened?

Well, in 1957, a marketing researcher by the name of James Vickery claimed to have done this elaborate experiment where he brought people to while they were watching the movie Picnic with Kim Novak at a New Jersey movie theater. He claimed to have inserted the words hungry, eat popcorn and drink Coca cola during the movie at something like 1/3,000th of a second, using a device known as what's called a tachistoscope. So it's completely separate from the projector that they're using to display the movie. And he claimed that he increased the consumption of these products enormously. So this really outraged people. I mean, at the time, it caused a huge fuss. The government started looking into it. The public demanded to know to what extent it was being used, and so on and so forth. Well, five years later, Ashley Vickery admitted that he falsified a lot of the information in that experiment, and it's become questionable whether to what extent it even took place at all. Now, there have been other experiments following that, and I mean, it is possible. I mean, a lot of these other experiments have shown that you can increase the consumption with innocuous words like drink Coca cola and eat popcorn, but definitely not to the extent that he claimed based on these newer experiments. So that's kind of one of the urban legends that we explore. I mean, there's a lot of misinformation and disinformation out there on the subject matter. So that's kind of why I thought this would be an interesting topic to explore in a film like media, because, I mean, it's so visual and a lot of it's auditory. Perfect medium for kind of exploring this in depth and kind of clearing up some of these misconceptions of the technology.

Well, what was really interesting to me is what happened after the Vickery experiment where Congress started, I guess worrying about the impact of this and basically I guess they were thinking of passing laws against it and then all of the big media organizations rushed in and said that they would self regulate.

Right, that's exactly what happened. And they actually created, I guess the national association of Broadcasters was created as a result of some of this. And if you look at the NAB now, they are clearly one of the largest lobbyists to media groups. All the major conglomerates that own mass media, they are one of the biggest lobbyists to these groups. So I mean it seems to me like they are more working in conjunction with one another than they are self regulating. But yeah, it's very fascinating how Congress did step in and I mean it's caused a huge outrage. Well, it kind of quelled down in the 60s and in the 70s it resurfaced again with a book by an author by the name of Wilson Bryan Key, who we were actually lucky enough to get in our film. He's passed away since then. But yeah, Wilson Brian Key's book Subliminal Seduction really kind of brought this subject back into the forefront of American public. So I think that that's definitely something that we explored in the film. And the book is really fascinating for people who haven't read it. He has written a series of books on this subject matter. And then after the books in the 70s it kind of died down again. So I think there's once again there's a lot of misinformation out there that we hope to shed some light on with our documentary.

Well, going back to kind of the government concept of it, certainly there are many conspiracy theorists out there, but there are also conspiracy facts, actual conspiracies. I mean all it takes is more than one person. That's the definition, two or more people. Right. Wanting to make something happen. I mean the formation of the United States was a conspiracy. There are a lot of conspiracies out there. But is it part possible that there are subliminal messaging campaigns going on as part of a large global conspiracy to influence the population? I mean you just look at how we are just bathed in this world of media nowadays and it is so powerful. And you know, I've traveled all around the world and I've been to 64 countries and I tell you. And this is not subliminal I guess, but it's just amazing to me how, how the reach of American media. It is in every part of the globe. Young kids dressed like the kids on mtv. It is mind boggling the power behind it. But what do you think about sort of the darker side of this, the possible conspiratorial side?

Well, I definitely think that there is a lot of possibilities that it's going on in much larger ways than any of us has any idea of. We talk about conspiracy theories and I get labeled that sometimes. And the film kind of has been mentioned as being in that category by certain people. But I think really in the same way that the film tries to expand on the notion of the term subliminal, we really need to, as a society, expand on what a conspiracy is. I mean, when you look at mass media like you were describing, and really there's only about four or five companies now that own these huge media conglomerates and they're global. I mean, they're in every continent on the planet now pretty much own almost virtually everything that we see, hear, read in newspapers and magazines. Radio stations and all the television channels are owned by several companies. Now that's a conspiracy, in my opinion. How we let it get to that point and the FCC with deregulating all of this, allow this to happen. That's where the conspiracy is at.

Just to be clear there, what you're talking about is media consolidation, right?

Yeah, the consolidation of mass media. And so when you look at these five companies and they all work in conjunction with one another and they all share boards of directors. So yeah, I definitely think there's huge potential when you have such power amassed in such a small group of companies for a lot of things to be going on. And subliminal messaging is just one of them. But I mean, there's a lot of other examples of how mass media has affected us as a society. And you described a few just with the way people dress. I mean, it used to be that art imitated life, right? But I think it's really gone. It's done a 180 where now life much more imitates art than the other way around.

Well, and the reason for that, I would say is because art now is so much more powerful, but also so much more pervasive. It's just everywhere. I mean, when that saying came up, it was probably art was a few things hanging on your wall or a performance you would see. But nowadays it's, it's. We're just bathed in it. We're drenched in it really, all the time, 24 7. So talk to us about some of the more evil kind of weaponized things. I just find it interesting. And I think it was Manuel Noriega, if I'm not mistaken. I believe he was in Panama. This was years ago at the time. And they were. They were. The US Military was trying to get him to come out. And they were country music he didn't like through loudspeakers.

Well, the same thing happened in Waco, Texas, during the David Koresh, the Branch Davidian standoff back in, what was it, 95, 93. But yeah, I mean, these are. You know, a lot of people don't realize, but there's secret. They're not exactly secret. But there's other branches of our military within the United States army that are called psychological operations units that actually, their mission is to go in and influence people and ultimately change their behavior. And so obviously, we just shared a couple examples, the Noriega thing where they used music. They did this in, like I said, in Waco with the Branch Davidians and the messages that they were sending to David Koresh. And a lot of them were whispered messages coming from different people and family members and things like that that they were not aware of consciously that were being sent through these. And I have credible sources that have shared this information with me. So it's pretty. I mean, it's definitely much more pervasive, and it's happening on a much broader level than people would realize.

What other kinds of weaponry are we talking about here in terms of influencing populations and opponents and so forth?

Well, I mean, they use a lot of techniques, and psychological operations is typically used against warring nations. Right. By things like, well, they have C130s, for example, which are these enormous airplanes that they fly over targeted areas that will, you know, from way up high, they can broadcast the message down to influence whatever audience that they're targeting. And they can also piggyback subliminal signals on the carrier and subliminally translate other information. So, I mean, if you're talking about, we're speaking of Iraq or in the Middle east, how this is being applied, you have all the people that are on the battlefield or in a population that are, for example, listening to the music, mosque and prayers that are going on on a station. So then you can have these messages broadcast to them that create fear and anxiety on a subconscious level. So that's one way that they do it. They also plant false stories and pay. They pay journalists to plant fake stories in their newspapers. And I mean, when you think about it, how we live in a globalized society today, it has a very severe blowback effect where you plan a story there and it gets quoted back here.

Yeah. So, for example, it is part of, I guess we'll call it a public relations campaign in Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, or Libya. Everyone seems to forget that we're at war in Libya. And we're still at Gitmo, too, which was another big promise we heard would go away. Right. But let's not go there. So plant a story in the news media over there and. And with it, with the idea that it will just simply blow back to the US and other countries, rather than planning it over here, where it may be tougher to get it into the media and through credible sources. So that's interesting. They're like reverse engineering it, huh?

Exactly. And I mean, they do plant fake stories here as well. I mean, we explore that in our documentary as well, with things like video news releases, or VNRs, as they're called. I mean, this is nothing new. They've been using them since World War II, pretty much since the advent of television. Presidents, all the different branches of the government and administrations within the government use these. You know, basically, what are PR campaigns. They're produced by public relations organizations, and then they're sent out in various ways to broadcasters all across the country, all over the world, in fact. And a lot of these smaller stations, they're short on staff, they're short on funding. So to fill a NewsHour, they'll grab some of these stories and they'll insert them into the six o' clock news and they'll present them as news stories because they look just like a reporter doing a segment on whatever it may be that they're doing. But in reality, what it is is a PR campaign. You're really being propagandized through public relations media and planting of news stories like that all the time. And I think the Bush administration took this to levels that had never been seen before, and all on the taxpayer dollars.

Well, how did they do that? What did they do?

Well, I mean, for example, they'll have the Food and Drug Administration and they'll hire a PR company to produce this fake news story. It looks like a news story where they're talking about something that has to do with the FDA's agenda on a particular product or on a certain drug, for example, on their viewpoints with pharmaceutical companies. And then they'll send them out to these news stations, they'll pick them up, they'll run them as news. And then people are sitting there watching this, going, hmm, maybe pharmaceutical Companies really are looking after our best interests.

Is that different than any president or any administration? I mean.

No, but. I mean, the levels at which they were used is far surpasses any other administration in the history of the usage of VNRs. So that's, that's documented.

But, but, but, you know, a VNR is just really another. Another form of a news release or a press release. It's just done with video. So it's, it's more powerful because it's got audio and images and so forth. But people put fake news releases out there, mislead with things and so forth. And. And it's really just the same thing. Expanded to more media, Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

No, absolutely. And it's not exactly. It doesn't exactly fall in the traditional term of either. I wouldn't call that subliminal, but in the same way. I mean, it's just the way in which media operates at such a subconscious level. This definitely falls into that category, I think.

Right. And here's one that is maybe more on the border of subliminal and advertising. And you covered in the film, which I thought was interesting because I'd never really seen it covered in a documentary before. And that's the concept of product placements in movies. And so.

Right.

You know, this isn't subliminal per se, by the definition of. It's hidden. It's not hidden, but it definitely is not overt advertising. And you never know when it's advertising and when it's not the movie, when the guy picks up a can of Coke or drives a certain car or wears a certain watch or whatever. I mean, the product placement business has expanded quite a bit over the last few decades, right?

Oh, my God. Without a doubt. A lot of films rely on funding specifically from product placement to produce their films. So. Yeah. Now it just shows you how you have mass media and companies that produce all the media, including Hollywood and all the studios that are tied into that system in conjunction with other corporations to basically sell other products. So when we think about conspiracies, I think we really need to expand our notion of those things because obviously this is a conspiracy as well.

Yeah, we sure do. We sure do. Well, what else would you like people to know about subliminal advertising and this kind of influence it has on us?

Well, I think most of us have a tendency to think that we're uninfluenced by advertising. We think, oh, yeah, those dummies over there.

It'S affecting them. But either maybe I mute the commercials when they come on or I don't pay attention to them. But studies have actually really shown that most of us.

Do a lot of things. We think they have a lot of thoughts for reasons that we're totally unaware of. The impact of this stuff definitely reaches all of us. The only question is really to what extent? If you think about it, we only use. Researchers have shown that we only use 5% of our brains. So what's another 95% doing? I mean, it's all probably working on a subconscious level. And so to target that area of the mind with things like this is pretty insidious. It really is something that we all need to question, we all need to become more aware of. And really, I think that's the goal of the film is to kind of create a heightened sense of alertness and raise that level of consciousness. Because when you do that, you know, it's. It no longer really affects you on a subliminal level if you're consciously aware of the techniques that they're using.

Well, Jeff, can people buy the DVD at the website?

It hasn't been released officially yet, but we're getting really close to being able to where we're going to do that. So I'd say within the next month it definitely will be available for purchase on our website, which is programmingthenation.com and aside from that, there's a whole host of other information on other screenings that may be coming to your area where planning a screening in Ashland is coming up. Ashland, Oregon Santa Fe, New Mexico and little one night screenings all across the country. So definitely check out the site. There's a blog, there's other clips, there's a ton of information there.

Fantastic. Well, Jeff Warrick, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for enlightening us on the programming of the nation that is going on. And I urge everyone to go out and see the movie.

Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it.

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