HS 450 FBF: Neuro Leadership with Dr. David Rock

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My pleasure to welcome Dr. David Rock to the show. He is the author of youf Brain at Strategies for Overcoming Distraction, Regaining Focus and Working Smarter All Day Long. I know this is a topic we can all benefit from, especially yours truly, so I think this will be an interesting interview. David is co founder and director of the NeuroLeadership Institute and they are all of about breaking new ground in our capacity to improve thinking and performance. And he is also founder and CEO of Results Coaching Systems. David, welcome. How are you?

Very good. Thanks very much for your interest in my work.

Good. And you're coming to us from New York City, right?

I am. I'm in lovely downtown Manhattan where I live and originally Australian, but I live in New York City. It's a great city.

We would have never guessed that from your accent. Just kidding. Fantastic accent. So David, tell us a little bit about how we can be more effective. I mean everybody especially in today world is constantly plagued by distractions, complexities and it's tough to focus nowadays with looking at multiple computer screens and then you've got your digital handheld device near you probably. And plus the people in the room. There's a lot going on.

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean our brain is really very very different to how the kind of the people who organise companies would like it to be. Our brain is not the brain that sort of interior designers think it is. We cann focus with just a few people looking at us, never mind bouncing screens. We can't focus very well at all if we're aware people are watching us. We can't focus very well if there's just a printer icon flashing on our screen. It's very, very easy to distract.

People, especially from a train of thought that is kind of conceptual. When something is right in front of you, you can Think about it. You can talk about it. When something's conceptual, like it's in the future or you haven't seen it before, it's a concept like an interest rate or a new product or a new hire or. Concepts don't fit very well in the brain. They take a lot of effort to hold and they're very easily displaced because they take so much effort. So it's very, very difficult to focus on the kind of conceptual work we're all doing with any kind of distraction. And the truth is, the truth is, you know, companies are making some shocking mistakes with how they just physically lay out and organize kind of spaces.

Very interesting.

Y.

So, so you're saying. I just wanted to touch on the concept point that you made because I'm not sure people understand what you mean by, by concept. So you mean as opposed to task oriented thinking, that's much simpler. Whereas conceptual thinking, our brains need to put multiple parts together and project them into the future. And that's much more taxing on the brain. Is that what you're saying?

Well, it's more like this, you know, if I say to you, picture your mother, she's going to come to mind pretty easily. And if I ask you questions about your relationship with your mother, you know, you can think about that easily. If I say picture your car, you can picture that pretty easily. Or picture an elephant, you know, you can picture that pretty easily. But if I say, you know, picture where you'll be in three months time.

That'S much harder to picture. Right?

It's much harder. It's a concept. It's not a physical object in the world. And when we, when we, when we process any kind of information, we have to hold it in mind. And holding something in mind has essentially two parts. It's called working memory has two parts. There's an audio and a visual part. Basically.

The visual working memory is dramatically more robust, a lot more circuitry involved. You can hold a lot more information in a picture than you can in a sound. And so our visual circuitry is really strong. But when you can't picture something easily, you don't have a robust circuit. And so it takes a lot of effort to hold that circuit in mind. I say to you, picture where you'll be in three months. And then, you know, a phone rings next to you and you've suddenly lost your train of thought. You're much more likely to lose that train of thought than if I say, you know, a picture of your car. You'll be able to hold that train of thought through the distraction. And it's, it's. It's the level of effort involved in holding a circuit together. So essentially, we're dealing in concepts. These days, you know, very few people sell physical sell or sort of, you know, pick up and move or deal with physical objects in the world so much. We're dealing with concepts.

Right. Services and things like that, Right? Yeah, that's a good point.

Exactly. Things we don't see. So it's much harder to process all that.

So it's interesting. Well, first, maybe you can tell us about. When you talk about how workspace is laid out for people, what mistakes do you see individuals and companies making in terms of how they lay out their workspace? What keeps them from being focused?

Yeah, I mean, it's an excellent question. We did a survey recently with an organization and we got 6,000 employees to respond to a set of questions about physical space. But the biggest insight came from the sort of overarching question. And we asked people, how many of you do your best thinking at work? And just bear in mind, this is in the company. I won't say who it is, but it's in a company where people are really paid to think. So they go to work, they're supposed to be thinking. So literally in the place where they're supposed to be doing their work. I've asked them the question, how many of you actually can do quality work at that place? And the answer was 10%. So 1 in 10 people could actually find going to work was a good place to get work done. That's crazy, right?

Terrible. Bad odds.

It's insane. I mean, you should just close the office and let people come in. One in every 10 days, perhaps, or one in every 10 people should come in. I don't know what. But it's crazy when you think about it.

I wrote a blog called, or a post called How Companies Spend Big Dollars Making People Less Effective. And there's a lot of organizations that really don't understand the basic nature of human functioning and do some crazy things. Now, Steve Jobs has been in the media a lot lately, and he's a, you know, he's an amazing man for many, many reasons. But one of the things that he is not talked about much is he was an observer of human nature. He was a meditator and into all sorts of kind of spiritual things. But what he was ultimately about was observing human nature. And he was very successful at noticing quirks that other people didn't notice, such as people like things really simple people don't want to have to think. We like stuff to be intuitive and natural. Now certainly there are boffins around, but he observed human functioning. Now if you go into an office and observe human behavior, what you'll see is in any kind of office that's even vaguely open plan, you'll see everyone with their headsets in trying to shut out the world so they can focus. And if you ask people sort of, and if you observe across a day, you'll notice that people are doing a couple of hours of sort of really good work in the morning and then that's pretty much it for the day. So there are pretty obvious patterns that, you know, we need to be able to shut the world out. And we can only really do good quality work for a few hours a day in the mornings. So it's, it sort of, you know, it starts to have you question, well, how should we design companies physically if that's the way the human brain functions? And the answer is, you know, we should not schedule meetings and not be answering emails in the morning. In the mornings we should be leaving that time for creative work and actually producing things. And we should use the afternoons for meetings to, you know, help each other stay awake. And we should also allow people the physical space to be absolutely, totally undisturbed by anything and be able to sort of move through, you know, have that option to be totally, totally undisturbed.

You know, that's interesting because, because, you know, people, I mean most people, I don't know if it's just me, but I think most people, the first thing they sort of do when they start their day is they manage all their email. And that's pretty task oriented though I guess it requires, you know, sometimes the emails you need to respond in a creative fashion or think about what someone sent you, of course. But maybe that's not the highest and best use for that prime time of our brain power. Right?

Absolutely. I mean the golden rule is do creative work first, urgent and important second, and email and everything else third. And the reason is a bit complex, but essentially creative work requires a lot of space in your brain. It requires a lot of quiet in your brain. We have insights when our brain is quiet, when we can notice subtle connections between things, weak connections between things.

Doing emails is sort of like doing 50 push ups and you've only, you know, in terms of mentally and you're absolutely exhausted afterwards and then you go to do some other exercise and you haven't got much left in you. Creative work first, urgent, important second, and everything else after.

So Most people need to flip their day around, I'd assume, listening to this. What about the physical space? You know, I assume you're going to say keep it a sort of simple, Zen like environment. Not a lot of things to look at, maybe, or no. You know, I mean, I see a lot of workspaces of companies that seem to be pretty effective. And they seem like they have whiteboards all over some of them, paint them on the walls, there's writing all over them. Everything's kind of like, you know, there's that sort of war room type concept of the environment where it's like a war room and you've just got bulletin boards up, things stuck up on the walls, a lot of stuff to look at, storyboarding, whatever. And then there's the decorated type of office where it's maybe clean and simple and nicely decorated. Is one more right than the other. Or by what you're saying, it would seem like the war room is a really bad idea.

Well, you know, it depends on the kind of work you're trying to do. And little things actually matter more than we realize when it comes to physical space and just the brain overall, you know, really little things really do matter, it turns out. So the, you know, for example, if you paint a room blue, people will be much more creative. A high ceiling makes people much more creative. There's a lot of little things like that actually help they prime the brain. I saw a study today which showed that just changing rooms, when you move rooms, it's much harder to access memories that you formed in the previous room. There's all sorts of quirky things that go on, but essentially, if you're looking for one size fits all, the best answer I can give you is let people design their own space. There's a great study showing you get about a third increase in productivity when you let people design their own workspace, which is crazy. And the companies say, well, let's design it for them. Let's find one approach. But a third increase in productivity, that's quite a lot. 30%, 33%, literally. Just how do you want your space to look? Just personalize it. Some people really need it clean and absolutely zen. Some people want their family everywhere on the walls. Some people want five desks in a war room thing. Every brain is really different. And giving people the autonomy to make these kind of choices actually is a reward unto itself. But people have different needs when it comes to that physical space as well. So the best rule is don't have one, is let people create the spaces Themselves.

But that's interesting what you said about blue. I mean, there have been a lot of studies that I've heard about that show that, like, pink is the color of calmness. And they're painting prisons where there's a bunch of hardened criminals, you know, they're painting the insides of them pink in many cases to calm everybody down. So they're not violent, you know, Is blue.

You know what? They're not violent. I'm trying to imagine the criminals, they're not violent, but they're deeply embarrassed, probably, right?

Well, maybe.

Imagine going to jail. Imagine going to jail and having to say, in a pink cell, you'd be too embarrassed to be violent. It's funny.

There you go. But is blue the color of creativity, though?

It is, yeah. It's partly to do with the proximity effects. You know, when you feel like you can see at a distance and you feel like you can see a long way and you're not you actually. It's weird, but it primes your brain to think literally big thoughts. You know, when you're looking at the sky rather than a roof, your. Your brain is able to sort of think further out, think bigger thoughts, think more systemically. It primes your brain, I think.

I think a lot of people listening may want to paint, get some blue paint. So just before we leave this small little subject here that seems really important. Is there a certain shade of blue? Is it sky blue? Is that the right color? Or navy or.

I don't want to be too prescriptive. I think people should do their own research on that. But something that is pleasing to the eye is of course, really important, and that may vary.

Sure, sure. What are some of the things people can do to find insights and solve seemingly insurmountable problems? The problem that just that there's no seemingly right solution. How does one get their mind in a place where they can solve these types of problems?

The answer to that is really fascinating and confounding.

There's really two brains. We've really got two brains. We've got a conscious brain and a non conscious brain. And it's being talked about by a lot of people. Lots of different frameworks. The elephant and the rider and the high road and the low road, all sorts of things. But essentially we have a conscious brain and non conscious brain. And when we can't solve a problem, the conscious brain goes round and round in circles on the same small set of solutions. We kind of get stuck in the same small set of solutions and not get anywhere. What's really interesting is those breakthrough moments when we suddenly have this kind of, aha. Something I've studied a lot for about five years. We know a lot now about these breakthrough moments. They actually happen when the brain is quiet and when we're not consciously trying to solve the problem. We've got to have sort of thought about the question. But trying to consciously solve a problem once we failed actually is going to reduce the likelihood of insight, interestingly. So what we know is quieting the brain, going a little bit internal, being slightly happy, but not working directly on the problem, working around it. This is the kind of state we need to be in to solve these tough problems. I wrote a paper about this, but if you look up online just how to have more insights, you'll see my post on Psychology Today on that, how to have more insights. And it's, you know, we really know a lot now about the neural state of a brain that has, has these breakthroughs. And there's, there's no substitute for quiet in the brain. And quiet literally means not a lot of electrical activity going on. So it's that state you have in the shower in the morning when you first wake up. But you won't have that if you do your emails before the shower. You know your brain will be ticking over. So it's that quiet brain. That's when we have those breakthrough moments and kind of respecting those quiet spaces in the day and allow the insights to come from the non conscious brain into the conscious brain. That's how we tend to solve those tough problems.

Yeah, very good point. How can we be more effective in collaborative situations where we really need to collaborate and harvest ideas from others and be engaged in that exchange?

There's a big body of work in this area. There's a whole field called social cognitive neuroscience and a whole bunch of neuroscientists, probably about 500 of them now, that are studying how people interact and what happens when we try to collaborate. And I built a model that summarizes what goes on in the collaborative situations. And it's been really, really helpful for understanding what goes wrong a lot of the time. And basically there are five domains that the brain is tracking all the time. And with these five domains.

It'S really important that we don't get a threat response in any of these domains. For example, status is the first one when we feel like our status is going down. When we feel like it's getting worse, we react very, very intensely. And what the neuroscientists are finding is that something like a status threat, or an autonomy threat, or a threat to a sense of relatedness to someone, or a fairness threat. These threats actually A very, very strong, and B, they activate the brain's pain network. So feeling like someone's attacking your status actually feels in the brain like someone's attacking you with a knife. And you defend yourself accordingly. You defend yourself very, very vigorously. And most of this goes on non consciously. So the five domains are status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. And those five spell out a framework called scarf and scarf. Or in American it's scarf. Scarf is these five domains that either can be in a threat or be in a reward state. So you can have an increase in status. That feels really motivating. And it's very, very motivating to feel better than other people. It's very motivating to increase your sense of certainty, it's very motivating to increase your sense of relatedness, et cetera. So these five domains are being played out in social situations. And when things go wrong, it's usually one of these five that's come kind of come unstuck without people being aware of it.

So certainly then what you're saying is if you're leading a team, the simple old concepts of positive strokes, of complimenting and rewarding and all that kind of stuff, I mean, that's neurologically important is what you're saying.

It's critical. It's critical. And the reason it's critical is that our conscious mind is really, really limited and not that, not that effective on many levels. And you know, anything we can do to increase our conscious capacity, our conscious processing capacity is helpful. Bear in mind that few people can even add up four single digits in their head. You know, that's not much information. If I say to you, what's 56 plus 79? You know, you could probably do it, but you'd rather not. And just, you know, adding up four digits is a threshold at which most people sort of can't do things, or some can, but certainly most people don't want to. And so making things easy for people turns out to be very important because we've got so little processing power, particularly for new ideas. We can process existing thoughts, existing habits very easily, but new ideas take a lot of processing power and they get kind of shunted aside a lot, which is why change is hard as well.

But you're saying make it easy, but is the brain like a muscle where it needs exercise and it atrophies if it doesn't exercise? I mean, do you want to challenge don't you want to challenge the brain? Play chess, do crossword puzzles or whatever? Music?

Yeah, I mean, there's a. There's a use it or lose it thing. There's no question there's a use it or lose it in the brain. It's not a muscle, but it's definitely, you know, it's definitely something that most functions improve with use.

You. You kind of alluded to it earlier, but in terms of when one feels their status is threatened, they become less effective. Does that lead into any more thoughts on keeping one's cool under pressure under any situation?

Yeah. I mean, the big takeaway from the brain research is that emotions do really matter. And even low levels of stress have a surprisingly large effect on our cognitive capability. And learning how to regulate your own emotions by recognizing them, being able to intervene quickly, whether it's distracting your attention or changing your interpretation of situations, doing these things quickly is really, really key. And what we know from neuroscience is that even really small threat responses, something primed that people don't even know they feel, really small threat responses, actually reduce cognitive capacity in a big way, especially around creativity. You can get a 50% reduction in creativity with a threat response people don't even know they're feeling. And so small things really matter when it comes to effectiveness. I mentioned this earlier. This is one of the kind of big findings from big overall findings. I guess it's a generalisation, but we have less control over ourselves and others than we probably realize. But more influence, far more influence in little ways over ourselves and others, but far, far less control.

You approach it from the angle of maybe a manager or a leader in leading a group, and it's important not to threaten one's status and things like that. But if someone needs to, say, get over something or forgive and forget or process emotions, I mean, can one do that more quickly? I mean, is it true that one can? A lot of people say, you know, I need to just process these emotions and then I'll be over it. I mean, how does one do that? Is that really a thing people truly do at the neuroscientific level, or is it just something they talk about?

No, there's a process called reappraisal, which has been very well studied in the neuroscience lab. And reappraisal is where you change your whole meaning about a situation. And we do it all the time. Mostly we're not aware of it, but it's a very, very important skill for dealing with strong stresses. It's really the only skill you can use for something that's quite stressful, like you lose your job, you might start spiraling down into a stress response that really, really, you know, affects your life to depression, all sorts of things. But if you can reappraise, if you're able to reappraise the situation, you might be able to change that. You could reappraise it as an opportunity to decide, you know, what's really important, you know, for your career next, or an opportunity to get really healthy and connect to your family for a while, or an opportunity to downsize and simplify your life, or, you know, something. It's got to make sense to you. But neuroscientists have been looking at what happens when we change our interpretation of the situation. And. And a whole emotional response follows. Our whole biological response follows when we change an interpretation. So it's pretty important stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, that's very good feedback. You talked at the beginning about how difficult and how much brain power it takes to comprehend conceptual things. And I wanted. I want to tie this into, you know, a discussion about something that has been repackaged and rewrapped as recently as four years ago or so. And that is the law of attraction concept. The secret that's been around forever, basically, but it regained a lot of fame recently. And what one has to do when they make a goal for themselves is they have to visualize something that they don't yet have. It has to be projected into the future, but they need to make it seem like it's real today so that it's sort of. The subconscious mind can grasp it, maybe. I mean, I'm kind of saying a lot of things here, so interrupt me when I'm wrong or correct me. But is this why it's so hard to set and achieve goals, is because one has to get their head around a concept that is. Isn't there yet. Like you said, it's grasping a concept. It takes a lot more power than a physical thing.

That's partly it. And there's been some good study studies on the fact that the more more a goal is proximal or the more a goal feels close to you, you know, both physically and in time, the more motivated you are. There's been some people researching that. So, yeah, definitely. Goals that are really in the future, intangible, it's hard to picture them. When we can't picture something, we don't have the emotional response to it as strong as when we can picture it. It's all very well, if I say the word lion, you're not going to get much of a response. But if you actually picture a lion about to jump at you, or we showed you a picture of that physically a picture, you'd get a biological response. So, you know, hearing something doesn't get a strong response. Seeing it really does. Back to that first point.

So visual. So when they say the concept of visualization, of course you want to maybe quote, unquote, visualize a goal with as many senses as possible and as much sensory input as possible. But really, vision, that is without a doubt our richest sense. Right. Far beyond our hearing and our touch and. And everything else. It's visual is the biggie, right?

Absolutely. And people will say, I'm a visual person or I'm an auditory person or I've got this learning style. Learning styles has been debunked. There's no such thing as learning styles. There are definitely tendencies, and people have preferences. Use an iPhone for a month and you've got a definite tendency to prefer using iPhones. It's just a habit that you've got. But it doesn't mean you've got an iPhone style brain. So something you do over and over will become a bit of a tendency. But in the brain, there are two ways of processing data, audio and visual. That's what we have. And the visual just holds so much more information. And in the brain, it's a huge amount more real estate. It's like an enormous shopping mall versus a single store. In terms of square footage. Your visual is a huge shopping mall and the auditory is a single store.

There's a lot more connections you can make, a lot more neurons involved, a lot more circuits created when you hold visual than when you hold a sound.

That's interesting. And I want to believe in every way that that's absolutely correct. The only area that I'd sort of question is the power of music being so powerful. And, you know, that's auditory, so it's kind of interesting.

Do you like how it's an impact?

I guess the best songs, though, make people visualize stuff.

Well, that's true as well. I mean, it's not to say that sounds aren't effective. I mean, I could play you all sorts of sounds in the lab that would make your hair curl. I mean, the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard will definitely have an emotional impact on people. So there are visuals that are impactful and there are sounds that are impactful. Can't so much compare them. But.

When it comes to the strength of a circuit, it's just the physical real Estate is much, much stronger. So I think the, you know, we've got with goals. There's a number of challenges with goals. One is we often can't see them and we don't sort of, they're too off in the distance. And another challenge is we often set goals in a negative way. We set avoidance goals instead of approach goals. And we need to really learn to set approach goals that we go towards rather than away from.

Yeah, very good point. Couple last things here before we wrap up. Providing feedback to people that can be difficult and trying and maybe it's not possible at all. I don't know what you're going to say, but is it possible or can we be more effective at changing other people's behavior? So feedback in changing other people's behavior. I, you know, especially I think bosses and parents are going to want to perk up at those too.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all want to tell people how to fix themselves. And it's a great way of creating a status threat.

You know, having people shut down. You know, my framework for feedback is actually don't give feedback unless it's positive. Give self directed feed forward, which is help people give themselves feedback about the way forward. And it's just a much more effective way of creating behavior change than telling people what they've done wrong.

Can you give an example of that? That was a really interesting statement you made.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you go to a sales meeting with someone, you're managing a salesperson, you go to the sales meeting and they haven't done so great and you come out afterwards and you start telling them all the things they'll do wrong and they'll argue with you and feel really bad or whatever. But instead of that, you can give self directed feed forward which is you can say to the person, you know, if you were doing that again, you know, you're a smart person, you probably learn a lot all the time. If you were going to do that again, what would you do differently next time? What learning did you take out of that? And by giving people a chance to kind of tell on themselves around this, you get a whole different set of circuits created and it's a reward response instead of a threat response. So it's a different, it's a qualitatively different experience to do self directed feed forward than feedback. One creates a threat and shuts people down, one creates a reward and hopefully creates new connections. And it doesn't mean it works every time, but we find about three quarters of the time this approach works, which means you've got a lot less. It means you've got 25% as many arguments as happens now.

Very good point. So the book is entitled, you, Brain at Work Strategies for Overcoming Distraction, Regaining Focus, and Working Smarter All Day Long. David Tell people where they can learn more.

NeuroLeadership.com NeuroLeadership.com has the programs that I offer on the brain and coaching programs, learning to be a certified coach and work we do with organizations and neuroleadership.org neuraleadership.org has a whole range of programs for individuals to discover the brain as change agents. So there's a postgraduate certificate, master's degree, things like that. There's also an annual summit that we run@neuroleadership.org, so a couple of different sites, the academic and research side, neuraleadership.org, neuraleadership.com, more the commercial side and organizational work, and then my own site, davidrock.net for all the papers that I've written and books I've published, et cetera. So there's a few resources for you there to enjoy.

Fantastic. Dr. David Rock, thank you so much for joining us today. Appreciate having you on the show.

Thanks so much for interested in this work. All the best.

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