HS 60 – “The Steve Jobs Way” with Jay Elliot

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Welcome to today's show. This is Jason Hartman, your host and as you may or may not know, every 10th show we kind of do a special tradition here that originated with my Creating wealth show where we do a topic that is actually off topic on purpose. Something just to do with general life and more successful living. And that's exactly what we're going to do today with our special guest. Again, 10th show is off topic and it is very much intentional, just for personal enrichment. And I hope you enjoy today's show and we will be back with our guest in just a moment.

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My pleasure to welcome Jay Elliott to the show. He is the author of something that's very timely right now, the Steve Jobs I Leadership for a New Generation. And since Steve Jobs passing, I've learned a lot of things I didn't know about him and I'm sure we'll learn a few more. Interview today. Jay, welcome. How are you?

Fine, thanks. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. Well, the Steve Jobs Way We've heard a lot about Steve Jobs lately. Obviously millions and millions of people have and just this outpouring of news about him and the significance of his life. It's really bigger than I thought it was. And I'm a huge Apple fan. I'm sitting here with my iPhone and two Apple computers on my desk and I guess I'm a cult member.

Switched from PCs and have really never looked back too much. But tell us about the book and your thoughts on all the news recently.

The book hit the market actually back in April, so that's when the book got published. I wrote the book because I was Interested in documenting my. I worked for Steve for five and a half years directly and I felt that it was my experience. I'd also worked previously at IBM and Intel, so I had a pretty good insight to corporate operations. And when I met Steve, he's a lot younger than me and I had to make a decision even to go to work for him because I'd never worked for somebody that's that much younger than myself. And so I did it and it really changed my life and it changed really the direction of how perceived the way leadership should be in corporations. And Steve's success was no secret to me. I knew he was going to be successful. So I decided I wanted to document sort of the understanding, the philosophy behind why he was successful and why Apple was successful. So that really is the purpose of the book now.

You were there. And so for the listeners it's important to understand the context of what you're saying because when you said you always thought Steve would be successful, so obviously you were there in the early days and I guess your tenure was 1980 to 1986.

Yes, that's true. So I was, I started in 1980. I met Steve at a, at a restaurant in a local. In a local restaurant here where I live. And by happenstance. And he was very excited about himself and the company, which I didn't at that moment. I'd never heard of Apple. And then I was looking for a new. I'd been at IBM and I went to intel, was looking for something new to do and that worked out great. So I was, I worked directly for Steve in two capacities. One as I was the senior vice president of operations. So running the corporate operations, working for Steve as chairman of the board. And then the way the company was organized, it was a division called the Macintosh division. So I worked directly for Steve, sort of his right hand guy in building the Macintosh.

Amazing when you talk about management style. I remember when I was just a kid seeing videos of Steve Jobs and I remember Steve Wozniak and his US Festival. And I remember it being so revolutionary that he had these weekend retreats and, and I remember seeing the, the video of that where everybody was wearing blue jeans. And back in that day that was sort of unheard of in corporate America, wasn't it?

Yeah, and even Silicon Valley when I first met Steve he was wearing a white T shirt and jeans and Birkenstock shoes. And in Silicon Valley at that time was dominated pretty much by IBM and hp, Fairchild and Intel. So they were much more buttoned down, more formal Kind of corporations. And to see a guy who's 35 years old, who's the CEO of a corporation, it really wasn't the way it was. And obviously even that set a whole new standard for what Silicon Valley is today. And so going to work for Apple was interesting because I'd been used to wearing either suits and ties and white shirts, and then to go to work for a company where you can wear Levi's and a T shirt was a whole different experience.

So 1980 at Apple to 1986. I mean, give us an idea of what the company was like back then. How many employees are we talking about? I mean, we're out of the garage by 1980. 1980, right?

Yes. At the time when I joined in 1980, the company was doing about $10 million a month in sales. So the Apple II was, right, was starting its ramp up, was starting to do very well. So doing about $10 million in sales. By 1986, when I left, we were doing $3 billion in sales. So you can see the kind of ramp up that was occurring at the other time of it. The Apple II was a great little product. It was selling well. There's a Software product called VisiCalc, which was one of the first applications that drove its sales. And also school teachers loved it because they could for their classes. But Steve and I, we took a very famous tour to a place called Xerox Park. And this was a research center here in Palo Alto, California, that really was the driver of technology and Xerox. When we got there, one of the things we saw which was revolutionary, which changed the whole direction, was a thing called a mouse. And actually Xerox had built the mouse back in 1978. In fact, most of the modern technology today that we use came from Xerox. Most of the things like USB drives and FireWire and all the current stuff really was all developed by Xerox in the 70s. Unfortunately, Xerox did nothing with it. And they were using it sort of in their printer technology, but not in computers. And so when Steve saw the mouse, it really he. And his eyes lit up because he knew that the interface to a computer needed to be simple. Because people in those days looked at computers to be sort of fearful of them and didn't know how to use them. And what he saw was this release that anybody could use a computer. And if you see today, I mean, that's where we are. And today it's anybody from 4 years old to 90 years old can use it because of the interface technology developed by the Mac team.

So some people might say, I mean, look, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, they were in the right place at the right time. I mean, how much luck was involved? I mean, I know Steve Jobs definitely was a brilliant man and I love his products. But at the beginning, back in the old days of Apple and, you know, Microsoft, how much of that was just right place, right time?

Well, I think timing was important. But you think about it, at that time, IBM was the number two corporation in the world. IBM was huge. It was rated number two in the world. It had incredible research. It had all this stuff. In fact, the reason I left IBM, because I felt they should go into this direction. But they chose to protect their turf, protect their computer rooms, and not really go for making, putting computers in the hands of people and even when even on both sides. So here's these two guys, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, you know, sort of stumble into this market that actually IBM did not want anybody to develop. But they showed all of a sudden that, hey, people want to use these computers and not be connected to a computer room. And Microsoft on the other side was brilliant enough. Bill Gates was that he understood that he was a driving force for IBM. And what IBM again made a huge mistake is, was allowing clones. All of a sudden the Microsoft software was being run in anybody who had a computer, from Dell to anybody else. So IBM made some massive mistakes. So one way you can look at it, be luck. The other side of it is here's the major computer corporation in the world that made some massive mistakes and they got. And they paid for it.

Sure, they. They definitely did. I think, I think that had to be a huge hit to their ego in those days. But this philosophy of how Apple was so different in wanting to control the hardware and the software versus Microsoft, that seems like the more open or maybe democratic idea of we'll make software and other people can make hardware and people can have more choice. And that, that really, I would certainly say that really won for many, many years until Steve came back and then they just. Such great hardware products. And kind of like people came into Apple in the last 10 years sort of in reverse. They bought their ipod, loved it, maybe they got an iPhone, loved it, and then they finally got a Mac. Strange way to acquire customers really well.

But Steve's always philosophy, which I agree with, and that was always the debate we had, was that you should have the whole product. So the product should be all in one. It shouldn't be part of its hardware and part of its software. You're dealing with two different companies. I think a lot of the problems with the Microsoft software has been that the hardware that's placed on isn't up to running. I think that was the big problem with Vista. A lot of the hardware manufacturers put it on PCs that weren't really designed powerful enough to run the software. So secondly, the other part of it is to make it all compatible. So the other thing about Apple is all these products that they build today are all compatible with each other. If you buy a Samsung phone and a Samsung computer, they're not compatible. One's running Windows and one's running Android. So I think that the whole secret is to be this product centric that it all runs together. And then obviously itunes became really the glue that ran it all totally together. So I think that's sort of what went out. And then obviously adding the retail strategy to it. It's just amazing what it's done for the Apple business. And I think that to me is the centerpiece of what the business should be going forward.

And I just have to make a personal user, consumer based comment about that is that of course I have Microsoft Office on my Apple computers, but it is such a hassle. Every time you get a new Mac everything just switches over beautifully except the darn Microsoft products.

That's always the snag.

And now with the icloud, it is all synced. So now if you're connected to icloud, you don't need to worry about backing up. It's all done for you and it's all synced across all your products. So it's again, it's a philosophy of the legacy I believe for Steve is this philosophy that it's all together as one family of products.

Yeah. And see the sort of the hacker type mentality, those people, we both have friends that are like that. They don't like the Apple products because they say, well, you're prisoned in their ecosystem. And I always say to them, yeah, but it's a really nice prison.

Exactly right. But even for that, you know, that's, you know, they finally, hey, if you want to build apps, you can go to the, you can build apps for the, for the iPhone or even now for the Mac. So I mean that's opened up, not open up the kernel or the system, but to open up if you want to build apps, you know, be our guest. I mean that's the other, that's the other side to change for the Apple's Apple philosophy.

Yeah, it sure is. Well, in your book The Steve Jobs way. You talk about Steve and his passion for the product. And I always sort of think that companies have three audiences, three main audiences. They have customers, they have employees, and they have shareholders or stakeholders. We'll include even vendors in that. They don't have to be public companies to have those kinds of stakeholders. But it seems like Apple has really pleased all three. Was it really built around the product or is it around leadership? The title of your book is Ileadership. Where was the Steve Jobs magic?

It was in the. Well, the leadership came from the product. So Steve Jobs magic is, I want a product, I want it to be the best in the world. And by doing that, everything else sort of follows along. So in order to build the greatest products in the world, I have to have a great, talented team. So, and to have a talented team, they need to know that their talent isn't going to be wasted. They're not going to be like Xerox and build a mouse. It's never going to be used. The public never sees it. So the great part of that is recognizing this talent and making sure that they are understanding that they're all part of this team. And part of that is to recognize your accomplishments. Again, to the product. It's not about, hey, you've been in the company for four years. We're recognizing your anniversary. It's recognizing the milestones that all these teams accomplish. And in building small teams, the other thing we talked about is making the team small, making the teams. But horizontal communication is critical. When Steve would get on the stage and say, I'm introducing an iPad, the greatest product in the world, imagine if you worked in that product, how you felt about it. And then ultimately never worried about the money, never worried about the stock price. That also took care of itself. Because if you're building a great product and you're getting great sales of it. And the other thing Apple now has created, what I call the retail juggernaut, is they don't leave 30, 35% commission on the table when they sell their product to somebody else. They have huge margins now, and that's a big plus for what they do.

Because they've got the Apple Stores. I mean, those markups are really that big. So if someone buys a PC, Amazon.com I mean, are they. They're really getting 30, 35% margin on that stuff. I can't believe it.

Yeah, Amazon probably getting more like 12 to 18%. But if they went into Best Buy and bought it, they're leaving 30% there in the. In the store. So those channels have big, big cost. It costs also when you go through those channels, it costs for marketing, it costs for things you do to promote your product in, in their sites and so forth. That all costs. You go into an Apple store, you buy the product. First of all, you go to an Apple Store, nobody ever talks to you about buying anything. You go in there and they will answer questions for you, but nobody says, what are you going to buy? You make that choice. It's a demo center. And the reason you're drawn there is because you're so attracted to the product. I also sort of call it like a Trojan horse center. That I have a PC at home, but I have an iPhone. I go in there and look at all, look what I see. I see all this compatibility and how all these things work together. And yet what do you think I'm going to buy next is a computer. It all works together, that's for sure.

Then that's a beautiful thing, the way it works together. Getting back to the team concept in your book, you make this great comparison. It's a great metaphor of pirates versus the Navy. Now most people would maybe think that the Navy, this big organized institution, is a great and powerful thing, but you don't think so. And I guess Steve didn't either, huh?

No, we were, we didn't want to have bureaucracy politics, you know, the power of the position sort of creep into the, into what I'll call a startup mentality. We wanted people to feel empowered. We wanted them to feel like they could be open and not worry about, you know, who they're meeting with or what the title is or what the policy is or what the bureaucracy. So we tried to find a metaphor that would sort of fit that mold. And so actually it was a guy named Jay Shiat. Shiat Day was the company did all the advertising for Apple in the early days. And Steve and him had dinner one night and Steve came back and said, hey, I think as a metaphor we're going to use pirates, not the Navy. And it made sense. And that really was what we inspired our employees. We even had a skull and crossbones flag flying above the building. I mean, unheard of. Skull walked by a big corporation and they're. One of the flags flying is a skull and crossbones. I mean, trying to figure a way to keep people focused on the importance of getting the product done right, focused on making the milestones they've been attached to, what they're going to do and not get caught up in the process of Them and the organization. So that's really why we did that.

Well, with that, I've got to ask you, I'm going to call it the Steve Jobs uniform. I mean, he didn't always wear that. That developed later. But I was talking to a friend of mine about the 501 jeans and the black turtleneck, and I was saying, what's that all about? And he said, maybe it's just sort of the Einstein mentality. And I go, well, what does that mean? And he says, just don't waste any energy on your wardrobe, any mental energy. Just wear the same thing.

The other side, Steve was, first of all, Steve. There was two parts of Steve. One was his very personal life, and the other was Apple. And I think that Apple at Apple Heat, they were two separate lives, two separate beings almost, because Steve was a very shy person in his personal life, he was very private. And you notice there was never. He never even gave any public appearances, very few even speeches. The most famous one, the one is Stanford. But in his Apple thing, what he wanted to do was when he's standing on stage introducing an iPhone, he wants you to focus on one thing, the iPhone. He's there representing in his hand the greatest product in the world. He doesn't want to distract from that. So he's not going to be there wearing a Armani suit with a great tie and whatever. He wanted just to fold into the background and that all you focus on is a product. I think that's really was in the early days, he mostly wore. It's funny, he wore white T shirts when I met him, but he did go through a period of time and sort of the. When Apple started growing up into sort of more corporate look. But ultimately, I think he decided that he needed to fold into the background.

Let me take a brief pause. We'll be back in just a minute.

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Well so one of the things that's interesting is that I've heard that and I believe on the 60 Minutes piece about him recently that he combined these sort of different parts of life. And one of them that I found really interesting was when he made his products and thought of the way product development should occur. He included the humanities. You know, I'm having a little trouble connecting that one. What, what does that mean? When you look up humanities, they talk about the study of IT in college and the classics and things. But what do they mean by that? I mean just ease of use, user interface or what are they talking about?

Yeah, I think we get in technology business, we get caught up in what I call technology engineering. We get caught up in wow, I just made the fastest chip in the world. And this does, or this drive does this, or this screen does this. But the humanity means is that ultimately the judge of how good a product is the person who buys it and uses it. And I think that that's where humanity comes in. What is the purpose of this product? What do you really want to accomplish and what is it doing for me, the user? And I think that's the other insight to the Apple products that they have set me free. It's a seamless interaction I have with all this information I'm dealing with through Apple products. I think that's where the humanity think about this Apple products are used. I just saw one the other day where a kid was only three years old, was using an iPad and loving it. And so it goes all the way from a 3 year old to a 95 year old. I mean it covers all of the world and most think about not many products do that. I mean that's the other part of humanity which is important, Jay.

And I'll have you know it actually spans one year younger than that because I've seen two year olds using iPads so it's pretty incredible. I bet you can't hand them a PC, a Lenovo and have them do that.

Right, exactly. And the other part of the humanity thing is education. I think Apple has been Steve. One thing Steve was criticized about was he never appeared to give a lot of money to any foundations. But if you think about it, his passion was education. So he they gave millions and millions of computers, millions and millions of development time, big discounts to the education systems in the world. And as you can Dapple is I go to, I have two sons in high school when I go walk down the hall, walk between the Apple Lab and the HP Lab The HP lab is empty and the Apple lab is totally crowded. And I mean, that's what I consider part of humanity.

Yeah, right. And it's the same way with the retail stores. You look at the new Microsoft stores and there's hardly anybody there. But boy, at any Apple store on the planet. And I've been to many of them, you don't know there's a recession if you walk into an Apple store, that's for sure. Huh?

No, of course. And look at their financial. Look at the store in Manhattan that's going to do over half a billion dollars in sale this year in just one stor. I mean, it's just, it's phenomenal.

Do you know I heard that that is now the most photographed building in New York City and it's mostly underground. I've been to that one and it's more photographed than say the Empire State Building or Ground Zero or anything else now.

Right. And sort of funny because also the other one is unbelievable. One is in Shanghai. I mean, it is unbelievable. And way back when actually IM Pei was one of the world famous architect architecture.

We had actually had him design the first Apple campus. And it was going to be almost like Disneyland. It was going to have a tram right around it and the roofs of the buildings were going to be glass. So you could actually look in the building when you went by to see what was happening. But unfortunately that never got off the ground. Although Steve's last appearance was to present his new building concept to the city council of Cupertino. And so when he did that, I thought, wow, he's finally fulfilled one of his last dreams, which is the Apple camp.

Fantastic. What was Steve's secret in hiring, in tapping into the best talent? I mean, you talked about not having bureaucracy and not having this hierarchical kind of organization and how people could go directly and talk to people. And you sort of got that formality out of the way, obviously. But I mean, I've heard definitely some negative things about Steve that he was difficult to work with, incredibly demanding and all those kinds of things. And I'm sure you know about them. What was his secret to tapping into talent and hiring? Right. And that kind of thing.

He really had a way about him that when you got interviewed by Steve there was interesting. He would throw out things and then see how you would react. He would throw out either concepts, he throw out things that potentially could be negative and then he would sort of judge sort of your reaction to it. And being interviewed by Steve was an interesting thing because you sort of got in tune with him very quickly about what he, his vision and everything. But he also was a master of finding out who you really are underneath all of that and who and what he thinks, how your talent is going to fit into what he needs to get done in his vision of the product. I think that's really the secret. Even you know, I always use a lot of times interviews say to somebody have you ever been fired? And if I say that to somebody I'm not, I don't care about the answer, I care about the reaction because a lot of people want to tell you that. So you just sort of judge by the reaction. And I think Steve was a master of sort of laying out parts of his vision, laying out parts of his ideas about the company, the product or what he wants you to do and then see how you react to it. And then after that he did. He was an incredible sales guy. But I think that's part of it partly looking at talent is trying to see under the covers who you are and is that going to fit into what you want to get done? I think that's really important.

Who were Steve's, who did Steve really look up to? Who were his idols and mentors?

Well, there were several of them weren't alive. Henry Ford was clearly one of Steve's mentors, but he wasn't alive. Gutenberg obviously, who invented the press. He looked at people who had done significant things sort of to change the way the world operated. I think Dr. Land, the guy who did the Polaroid camera was one of his big heroes. And in fact we went and met with him once in Rochester, New York. So it was people like that that he felt had taken either technology and used it to convert what culture was doing or society was doing. Thomas Edison was another one. So there wasn't many. I think Bob Noyce was one. Before he died in Silicon Valley. I always viewed Bob Noyce as being sort of the pre Steve Jobs. He was sort of. I sort of viewed Bob as sort of the guy that looked was a lot like Steve Jobs but he, he came a lot before Steve Jobs.

And who was Bob Noyce, sorry.

Bob Noyce is one of the co founders of Intel. So Bob Noyce was, he was the co inventor of the semiconductor with a guy, with a professor from Stanford. So he really was the, he was really the inspiration that created Silicon Valley and then he helped found Intel. So that's where he came from.

A couple rather amazing comments I've heard after his passing and I believe they were from the 60 Minutes interview. One is that he credited a lot of his success to taking lsd. Comment on that. It's a pretty controversial statement, right?

That might have been early on in his life, but certainly wasn't later in his life. I think he was really into this sort of being able to see into the future and being able to look through the mass of what was happening around him, being sort of away from it. I know that he was a practicing Buddhist. He was concerned about diet. I mean, he never drank or smoked. And I think he just looked at the purity of. Trying to look at the purity of thought. And I'm not. I mean, a lot of this. I saw part of that. I also read part of that new book, which I don't like, by the way, and I don't give a lot of credit to the author because actually I'm in it and I'm falsely represented in it. So I'm. I have a negative opinion of that interview.

Okay, fair enough. One of the other things, though, that I thought was really telling and difficult, and maybe you can give some insight into this, is that in that interview they said that. That Steve always. He was always striving to make the product simple and clean. And he said, it's hard to make something simple. It's easy to make it complicated, which somewhat counterintuitive, really, but I don't think it is. But some people might judge it that way. And I guess a lot of his concept of simplicity came from Buddhism, right?

Exactly. In fact, if you look at Buddhism, one of the most simple products that sort of everybody APPLAUSE Is the egg. If you look at an egg, it's incredibly simple, but it's very effective. It protects the insides of it very well, has a great design to it, great texture to it. All these sort of, kind of. You think about it, wow, that's a simple product. And I think that was even in the early days of Macintosh, we always wanted to produce a product that didn't need an owner's manual. So that was the other. The ultimate statement of simplicity is no owner's manual needed. You don't get an owner's manual. When you buy an egg, it's pretty simple to use. So it's like that was sort of the ultimate goal of an Apple product, which today that's true. You don't get an owner's manual with an Apple product.

You get a little tiny thing in there, maybe fingertips with your iPhone or something.

But the funny thing about it is you get a lot of insight to your new products from other Apple users. My 15 year old is my Apple guy. So he tells me what I can do to make my product more effective. So it's really interesting about then you sort of developed sort of this inner cult of people that sort of talk about it together, which is sort of interesting.

Yeah, I just wanted to, before we go, give you the opportunity to talk about any stages of the company he left and came back. And of course Apple was really on the rocks when Steve was gone, if you want to talk about any of that. And then I just want to ask you about the branding and the sort of the coolness. I mean, Steve really made computing cool, right?

Yeah. Well, first of all, when Steve was at Apple, Apple turned out to be a big problem. Obviously the Scully era. And Scully was not the right guy to run Apple. The board of directors threw Steve out, which is a huge mistake. In fact, I went to the board and told them they were making a big mistake and I got rewarded by being fired myself later on. But the problem that happened is that the products were going in the wrong direction. The Mac was clearly a consumer product trying to be put into corporate America. But when Steve left, he learned a big lesson, a couple things. One, he learned that in his heart he was a consumer guy. He was not a corporate America equipment manufacturer. So he learned about consumerism, he learned who he was and what he was really excited about. That sort of came out in Pixar. When he took over Pixar, the time he took over Pixar, the longest movie they'd ever produced was two minutes in length. And so the first thing he said, we need a product because he's a product guy. So. So Toy Story came out of that. So he learned after leaving Apple and then seeing Apple sort of disintegrate that he learned his lesson about he's a consumer guy, he wants to make products for the person. And he also learned to do that you got to have the right company structure, you got to have the right board of directors. And he also learned that he has to be in charge. In order to make that happen, he had to be the CEO. So those are all the lessons he learned by the failure of Net, the success of Pixar and then coming back to Apple was able to implement that. So I think that was an important year for Apple and for Steve coming back. And a lot of the concepts that Steve came back with, we had already been talking about in the late 80s. I mean, in 85 and 86 we were talking about the consumer product and putting it into stores and all that. Other stuff we even talked about in 84 about the concept, which eventually became Dell nine years later. And so Steve had a lot of the stuff already going in his mind. He just had that opportunity. You think about it, he was worth about $6 billion with his Disney deal. He didn't need to come back to Apple, but he just saw that as an unfulfilled dream.

Yeah, it's really amazing that he lived really, frankly, a very modest life. And I was surprised to hear that, like, at his house, did he have a security guard at least, or. I mean, this is.

No. In fact, when he bought his first big mansion up in woodside, it was 15,000 square feet. It was owned by the creator of ConoCoat copper. And I went up to visit him after he moved in. He was living in the maid's quarter because the maid's quarter was connected to the kitchen where he had his cooks. And so the rest of this house was empty. There was nothing in it. I mean, it's like, I'm not sure he ever put anything in it. I mean, he lived very minimally and you would never know it. And even his home up in Palo Alto was open to anybody. I mean, you could see him drive out every morning if you wanted to pay attention. The sad part about the Indian of his life was that he was under so much scrutiny, that paparazzi, they couldn't wait to take photographs of him hobbling out of his house. And that was really too bad.

That is too bad.

That was really sad.

It really is. Well, Jay, just before we go, give out your website, if you would, for the book, and maybe if you want to just talk about what you do as well, I find that interesting in terms of your business.

Yeah. The website is called thestevejobsway.com that's my website. My book is in 19 countries and 29 languages, so it's doing very well in the world.

Fantastic reviews on Amazon too, right?

Yes. If you go on there and go on there, you'll see reviews. And so under press, it probably has about 30 or 40 reviews in there for almost every major publication in the world. And all the TV stuff I've been on. So secondly, I'm still in the. I'm a software guy, so I'm still in the software business. I have a software company, we produce a way to accelerate information to the Internet. So it's called WAN acceleration, Wide Area Network acceleration. So we do what companies like Oracle or the other company, Riverbed do with hardware, we do with software. So that's what we do on that product. Secondly, we build apps. So I have a suite of apps we call Family Safety that allows you to have emergency contacts and so forth. Those are the two things we do in my business.

Fantastic. Well, Jay Elliot, thank you so much for joining us today. The book is the Steve Jobs I Leadership for a New Generation and very interesting to talk about this. Very timely indeed. And we're sorry to see Steve pass. What an incredible man. I mean, the Thomas Edison of the last decade and part of the last century as well.

Right? Well, thank you very much.

Thank you.

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