HS 97 – “Deep Cover Cop” with Ted Sumner

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My pleasure to welcome Ted Sumner to the show. He was a deep cover cop and he's got all sorts of interesting adventures to share along those lines. He's also owner and lead instructor for San Jose Kempo Karate and we're just going to hear about kind of what went on during his very long career and you know, also maybe what he feels about laws and maybe specifically drug legislation and so forth and kind of where we should go with that. So Ted, welcome. How are you?

Very good sir. How are you?

Good, good. You're coming to us from San Jose, I assume. Silicon Valley, Correct. Fantastic. Well, tell us about your adventures and who you are and your background and so forth.

Well, I started out in law enforcement. When I got out of the military, I had wanted to go to work for San Jose police. But after placing high on the test it was challenged. And so I wound up working for the sheriff's department in the jail for a year. And I got to know certain aspects of the criminal element quite well. A year Later, San Jose hired me on. And then in 1974, they asked me to come into Narcotics specifically to work a deep undercover operation to infiltrate the high schools and find out what was going on there, what the drug culture was, who was supplying the high school students and with what.

How old were you at the time?

I was 25.

And you passed as a high school student?

I passed for 17, yeah.

Oh, okay. This is just like 21 Jump street, that comedy movie that's out nowadays.

I haven't seen the movie, but I've.

Heard it's not that great. But I did see it, but yeah. So you passed for 17 and that must have been pretty intense to kind of just pull that off. I mean, how'd you do it?

Well, what you have to do is, in that type of work is you have to wholly immerse yourself in the culture. So what you do is you go to places where the high school kids go, you meet people, you make friends, and you get introductions to people. Ultimately, it turned out that the sources of drugs for the high school were the same as were supplying the population in general.

And so were you looking to bust a dealer ring of high school students dealing drugs or you were looking to find out who was supplying to them? I assume the bigger fish, right?

Well, we didn't really know what we were going to encounter, and that's why they put me in there and allowed me to go deep. That was the first type of operation like that. But they wanted to know what are the kids using and how are they getting it? Who are they getting it from? Well, the sources were pretty much the same as for everything else they were getting. The amphetamines were coming from primarily the Hells Angels. The marijuana was largely homegrown. And then the cocaine was from a supplier who was a fairly affluent and successful man. But he controlled all the cocaine coming into the area.

Well, no wonder he was affluent and successful. I hope you don't mean by that way, though. Maybe he made his money elsewhere, but.

Well, let me rephrase that. He was socially and politically connected.

Yeah, don't be surprised. It's not necessarily some draggy looking guy on the street corner. You know, I would assume that during a deep cover operation. First of all, how long were you deep cover?

A little over three years.

That is a long time. So you passed for 17, but kept staying in school. Did they just everybody assume you just never graduated or.

Well, no, what they did is we finished up the high school operation. That was a six month operation. They brought me up. It Was timed to make massive arrests, basically a big dragnet, one week before graduation. And the intention of the mayor and the chief of police was to put the fear of God into the drug dealers and the users. After that, I was supposed to go back to regular patrol duties. And they decided that it was so successful, they wanted me to continue not so much in high schools, but to target the sources that were supplying the high school people as well as everybody else.

What did you learn about these kids and their suppliers and what was going on? I mean, that just had to be crazy. Very rarely do you ever get to talk to a deep cover cop. So tell us about it. How did it all work?

Well, the alarming thing about it is the volume of drugs that were going into the high schools and how many kids were using them. On the other hand, a great percentage of it was recreational. The number of addicts, people really addicted to the drugs, were much smaller than you might think. But the recreational use of the drugs was just phenomenal. They originally told me, well, you'll probably buy some LSD and maybe some cocaine. I was buying massive quantities of lsd, pcp, cocaine, and then even heroin.

And what do you think the most dangerous drug is? Did they have methamphetamines back then like they do now, or.

The, the way that they consumed it was different back then. When?

What year are you talking about? Give us some.

I started there in 74, and that was the year that Nixon started the war on drugs or declared the war on drugs.

Oh, that wasn't Reagan. That's my misconception then. I thought that was.

Oh, no, that goes all the way back. This war on Drugs is almost 40 years old.

I'm going to ask you a lot about that in a moment, but go ahead.

Well, the first thing they did is the State department put pressure on the pharmaceutical companies to stop overproducing. The drugs that we were finding here, aside from marijuana and heroin and cocaine, which are they, all three fell into the legal classification of narcotic, meaning no medical use, although.

They don't fit that medically. But all of the other drugs were pharmaceuticals that were coming in. Well, the State department put the pressure on. They stopped overproducing. That source dried up. So instead of, say, pharmaceuticals, which usually when you had an overdose, it involved the drugs and alcohol, now you had home produced type of drugs. And so the amphetamines came in the little white tablets they called whites with a little on them. College kids in the 60s and 70s remember taking those before finals.

Those were speed Then, right, that was speed.

But then the methamphetamine was what they were injecting and taking, like cocaine.

The meth has got to be the scariest one. I mean, I'm no expert at this stuff, but I hear stories and see stuff and read stuff about meth and wow, that is just one ugly, ugly drug from what I can tell.

Yeah, you take a normal healthy person and you speed their heart rate up to 250 beats a minute. And that doesn't kill them, I mean, well, it can, sure. We've had a number of overdoses from amphetamines and now they're smoking it.

It's crack cocaine and crystal meth. And it's tough on the body. You see their teeth turn black, their fingernails turn black. There's a decalcification of the body that's taking place.

Oh, their face just looks disgust.

They age like crazy. It's almost as if they've turned the speed up of their metabolism and they age.

10 times faster.

Unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, really bad stuff. So do you have anything, I'm curious, do you have anything bad to say about law enforcement or government from the legislative side even? And I want to talk about the war on drugs, obviously.

Well, I think it's become pretty obvious that the war on drugs is a dismal failure the way it's being conducted. We've been doing this 40 years. It only took 10 years for prohibition to be abolished because they saw that it wasn't working. The other thing that it does in criminalizing it like this is it creates a black market run by criminals. When I would arrest a rapist or a murderer, I'd take a murderer or a rapist off the street. When I arrest a drug dealer, there were 10 or 15 people showing up wanting his job. And they didn't come with resumes and Brooks Brothers suits, they came with guns. And it's very violent. The potential for money making in that is just incredible. And the only way that they're gonna put the cartels out of business is like with anything else, government regulation, or.

In essence really less government regulation. Legalization, Right, decriminalization, legalization.

But heavy regulation like they have with, with tobacco and alcohol. I mean, I ask kids, why do you use these drugs? Why don't you just drink? Well, it's easier to get the drugs.

Yeah. That's an interesting thing that you just said. Alcohol is regulated and you gotta find someone to buy it for you. Is it really easier for say an 18 year old or a 16 year old? To get drugs than it is for them to get alcohol.

Well, absolutely. It's pervasive. And because it's being supplied by a criminal element, there's no adherence to any regulation. And the profit motive is phenomenal. I mean, we were seizing literally rooms full of money. And I'm talking about hundred dollar bills. And the cartels, they can easily write that off as acceptable losses. That's how much money is changing hands here.

Well, let's drill down into the war on drugs issue for a moment. And I agree with you. I think it has been a dismal failure. As long as there is demand and profit, there will be supply. People will find a way. And you know, you look even in the countries that are incredibly strict about it, and I believe they call it the golden triangle there in Southeast Asia. Right. And you know, I've been to Singapore, I've been all over Malaysia and I couldn't believe it. On the, on the immigration card that they hand out on the airplane, you know, it will be in either blue or black ink, but in red ink and big print, right on that form it says death to drug traffickers in the airplane. In the beautiful airport in Singapore, there are signs on the marble posts and the marble walls. Gorgeous airport. You know, everything's so clean and nice in Singapore that just say death to drug traffickers right on the wall. And they still have a problem.

Yeah, well, and that is because there is such a phenomenal profit potential. But if you took and legalized and then regulated it, use the analogy. Would you drink bootleg liquor that could possibly make you very sick when you could just as easily buy it with the stamp approved by the government at a store? Same thing. You know, they'll always. And people still make their own wine and they make their own beer. But would you, would you buy marijuana from somebody that was possibly laced with paraquat when you could buy it at a government regulated store?

What's paraquat?

That was a defoliant that we used in the war on drugs to destroy the crops.

Oh yeah, I've heard of it.

It would spray it aerially and it was supposed to kill the plant. And a lot of it just got harvested up.

Right.

With the plant, made its way into the drug using mainstream and made some.

People very, very ill. And is that still around nowadays? I haven't heard about that. Or is that still back from the 70s?

No, they haven't been doing that. Mostly in the United States they go in and burn it, right?

Yeah, so that's a good question. But Drilling down into the specifics of, of maybe another solution here. I mean, listen, certainly I think they should just legalize pot. Okay, I'm not, I don't have a big issue with that. But things like cocaine and heroin and LSD and meth, I mean, that is serious, serious stuff.

Well, and again, I go back to the point that most of the people who smoke marijuana are like most of the people who drink. It's recreational. You've got that percentage of alcoholics who have a real problem and you have a small percentage of marijuana users that have a real problem. But when you get into heroin addicts, that gets out of control real fast. Same thing with the meth and.

To a lesser extent the cocaine. It doesn't have quite the addictive properties that meth and heroin do. So what you've got is you've got a large group of those people who would, they're under control. They're fine. If they were able to legally buy it, they would use it responsibly. You still are going to have to deal with that drug addicted group. Well, for lack of a better word, the addicted.

So what are you going to do with them? I mean, you legalize all these hard drugs, what are you gonna do with the addicted crowd? And I mean, when it, when you talk about these hard drugs, I mean, anybody who uses them is gonna become addicted, right?

For the most. Well, with any regularity, if they use them. Yes. Yeah, but what you have to do then is those people, it has to be controlled. And most of them, by the time that their addiction has gotten out of hand, they want help with it anyway because they are usually committing addict supporting crimes to pay for the addiction. Whereas if they could enter a program whereby they are supplied with it and given safe doses. When Switzerland did this and Portugal, they have not had a single death by overdose since instituting this type of program. But again, and even with marijuana, legalize, but control it like alcohol or cigarettes. Nobody buys black market cigarettes. You know why? When you can buy a perfectly safe product out of a machine.

I remember my first trip to Amsterdam. I went there thinking, you know, I'm pretty much a libertarian. I went there thinking, you know, we should just legalize pot. And I came back thinking, it's kind of scuzzy over there and I don't know if I like the idea anymore.

Well, again, total legalization with no control. That's, you know, there's got to be accountability, just like there is with alcohol. You're not allowed to get, you're not allowed to Be drunk in public, you're not allowed to go to work drunk, you're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle drunk. Same thing. Same thing with drugs. They have to be used responsibly. And most of the population who uses marijuana, they do. And over 50% of the people who are in prison for drug convictions, it's marijuana.

You got to be kidding me. 50% of the drug population in prison is marijuana. Now, this is a stat that I found pretty, pretty discouraging. Also here's another one for you, is that they can't control the drugs in the prisons. I mean, how are they going to. I hear drug use in prison is higher than it is, much higher, actually, in general society. Now, if it's that easy to get drugs into a prison, a high security prison, how do they ever think they're going to control it in the general civilian population?

Well, they're not going to control, you know, there's always going to be rogue use. But if you can control the production, take that profit motive away, control production, the safety and purity and the distribution, then you're just dealing with a very small percentage of a criminal element rather than actually creating by policy, much larger crinoline.

So how would this work? I mean, kind of outline how it would work if it really did happen. I mean, would you go into a bar and they'd sell you a pot, cocaine, lsd, or do you go to the store to buy it or get a prescription from your doctor? Is it like the medical marijuana type idea or what happens here?

You know, all the particulars would, you know, have to be worked out, but it would probably be like buying a pack of cigarettes. You know, you, you show your ID to show that you're of age and you make your purchase at a licensed, legally operated store of anything. Well, now again, you're talking about marijuana. If we start getting into hard drugs, it's got to be more closely regulated.

See, I don't think the marijuana thing is that big a deal. I don't think society would be all that much worse off, and there might be a lot better for it in many ways. Certainly it'll take one whole profit stream away from the criminal drug cartels right away. That's the most commonly used one, I assume. Okay, so that'll just take that one right off their plate. They'll lose that whole product line, which would be great. Now, who would probably produce it? Philip Morris.

I believe that there are several tobacco companies who have actually applied for licenses in anticipation that it would someday be legalized.

Okay. But tell me, you know, what are your thoughts on how they do the more serious stuff? I mean, if that was all legal, what would happen?

Well, again, you know, a person doesn't wake up one day and say, I want to become a heroin addict. Usually it's. They're exposed to it somehow, usually by a friend. Contrary to the popular belief that the pusher is there. It's usually a friend. And they describe the, you know, the great rush. Well, the great rush is there with the first injection, maybe even the second. But it gradually goes away. And then after a while, all they're doing is maintaining.

They got to keep upping the dosage.

That's the problem with addiction. There's a tolerance, a ferocious tolerance level that's developed very quickly with heroin. So most of those people, they just don't want to get sick. They use the methadone maintenance program, but it doesn't do the job. If they could use it with clean needles and a safe dosages, we're only talking about pennies. If it weren't for the, the black market effect on it, pennies per dose, they would be able to maintain themselves.

What if it was just decriminalized and we treated it more like they do in Europe, like a, you know, a social problem or a psychological problem or a medical problem. But, but it wasn't, it was like decriminalized in that sense, but it wasn't legal to just start rampantly producing it. I mean, you know, at least maybe you take away the taboo, which is attractive to some especially rebellious teenagers, but that probably wouldn't solve the problem because, I mean, would the price go down if it was, if it was the usage was decriminalized, or maybe not. Maybe the demand would increase. Actually, that might have the reverse effect.

When there is legalization or decriminalization, there's an immediate upswing, uptick in the use initially, initially, and then it comes down. At least that's the experience we've had in Switzerland and in Portugal and the countries that have done that. So yes, you deal with that, but if you decriminalize, you still leave that black market open. You have to legalize it and control the production, the distribution.

Well, talk a little bit about maybe some of your most interesting busts. And when you're a deep cover cop, how do you come out of COVID What happens?

Well, the way that we did the operation was I would stay immersed in the culture until they felt that we had, or I had completed an operation, I had.

A complete organization, I could take down at one time. And then we would go get grand jury indictments. And then usually the SWAT team would, would come in about three in the morning and they'd, they'd make the sweep and pick everybody up all at once. Then my cover is blown. So I would just clean up a bit because I was going to be in court for the next few months on motions and trials and everything else. Then I would identify another target organization, change my appearance, and then begin the process of immersing myself into that culture.

Amazing. Yeah. So you'd go in and out of it then. I mean, I'm sure you had to be worried that some of these guys would come after you and kill you or harm you in some way, right?

Well, the danger is in them perceiving you as being possibly an informant rather than a police officer. If they think you're a police officer, they just won't do business with you. They'll just close down.

So what's the distinction with informant?

Well, you're an informant, you're a snitch. You're usually somebody who's either working for pay from the police or you've been arrested and you're trying to work your charges off by selling out on other. Selling out? Yeah, that's how they look at it. So the closest call I had on that was.

A longtime dealer that had eluded us for many, many years. His name was Old Man Richard. He was a black gentleman, operated out of an area called East Palo Alto in Northern California here. And.

He sold methamphetamines. And that was he sold primarily to the black community. The Hell's Angels had their own production and they sold primarily to the white. So my cover was that the Angels Cooker had been arrested and they were looking to buy some meth from him to keep their supply going until they got a new cooker. And it worked. I mean, I was able to insert myself into the organization. And then one night I was going to make a multiple ounce buy. It was a Saturday night. I arrived on a motorcycle, which in retrospect was a very bad move. He invited me into his house or somebody else who answered the door. And there were about six of his lieutenants there. And they had decided that I was either a Hell's angel who was going to set it up, set them up to rip them off, or I was an informant. And then here I show up on a motorcycle. So they had a gun to my head and they wanted me to try the drug, which was obviously set up as a hot shot so I wouldn't shoot the drug. And then they were deciding how they were going to dispose of me. And the guy with the gun in my head, he just wanted to shoot me. He was a young guy. And old man Richard said, no, you blow brains all over my living room. And you know, his companion wouldn't like that.

I mean, were you just scared like crazy or was this just part of the job they prepared you for?

No, there's no way to prepare for that. Yeah, you were scared when you figure you're dead and they're just talking about how they're going to do it. And they decided to dispose of the body by. They take me into the bathtub, shoot me there, and then cut me up with a chainsaw and dump me in the garbage disposal. So I was, yeah, I was in a pretty bad psychological way there. And as a last desperate measure, what I did was I said, I said, well, I'm sorry to break up this party, but you know, we've got four minutes left. You're partially right. I'm not a drug dealer, but I am a police officer and the place is surrounded by the SWAT team, all hand picked by me. And they're coming in in exactly three and a half minutes and nobody leaves her alive.

And were they really there?

No.

Oh, no, no, you just said that you just had to pull that off. And they believed you, I guess. Right.

Well, the guy with the gun to my head, poked it into my head rather roughly a few more times and says, he's lying, let me shoot him. And I turned to him and I said, you think I'm lying? Go ahead and fire a shot into the floor and see how quick you get everybody killed in this place. And the old man shook his head even while I'm doing it. So my bluff was working. But what I realized is they didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to get out of it. I had to give them a way to get out of it.

So what? Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Because they figure they've got you as a hostage, so that's better off than not.

That's not a good place to be with the SWAT team. They're pretty good. So I told him, I said, look, Richard, you haven't committed any crimes. Though he'd sold to me twice before. I said, you haven't committed any crimes. Let me walk out of here, I'll walk slow. You guys get rid of the drugs you got in the place and maybe you guys will live to see the morning and they thought about it for a second. I could tell they were terrified. And Richard said, go and walk slow. Well, I walked out and I hit the starter on my motorcycle and the battery was dead.

Oh God.

So I jumped up on it and I hit the kick start a few times. It wouldn't start. So this is how much adrenaline was coursing through my body. I took off down the street pushing it and jumped up on it and popped the clutch. It didn't start. So I pushed it again and popped the clutch and it finally started. So then I contacted my lieutenant. They had the.

San Mateo County Sheriff's Department SWAT team hit the place, but they sanitized it pretty well.

Yeah, so the guys were pretty much gone.

But he had forgotten that he had sold to me twice before. So he went to prison anyway.

Yeah. Wow. So I mean, he must be out by now though, right?

No, he's dead by now. He was in 70s then.

Oh my gosh.

He'd been doing this for 40 years.

Whoa. Wow. Wow. Amazing. So that was your scariest moment then, huh?

One of them. Geez. I had one where I was working a guy.

He was. His name was Mexican Bob. And he had two sons, 119 and 1 21. And they had a. It's like in this part of the country, there's these adobe houses that were built back in the 1800s. And they used to be on little farms and now they're like two acre lots in this one area. And while I was there making the purchase, I saw some long haired people moving and I recognized them. They were officers from the county task force. Narcotic task force. Well, San Jose, we never use undercover officers to affect arrests. It's too dangerous. Somebody shoots you, they say, hey, you know, he looked like a doper. I thought he was here to rip me off. Well, their, their attitude was the undercovers could get in closer, which is, I think, reckless. But anyway, old man Richard saw him, thought it was. Thought it was indeed a rip off. They got their guns out and started blasting. They handed me a.38 and said, help out. And I, I couldn't shoot the cops. I knew who they were. And I duck down under the window and a.357 round crashed through the adobe right under my nose. So I jumped behind the sofa. And then they, they broke in and I finally, I realized I gotta, I gotta stop this. And I yelled, they're the cops. They're cops. And I said, quit shooting.

They're gonna kill us.

And old man Richard said, we're not stopping Until Jesus, his son, has gotten rid of all the dope. And so they fired a few more rounds and then the cops broke in and they saw me and they were like, what are you doing here? Almost like, you know, hey buddy, how's it going? Which immediately made Richard and his boys suspicious. So they decided they were going to rectify that situation by beating the hell out of me. They broke my nose.

Gave my kidneys a working over and that didn't matter. Richard didn't buy it. The operation was compromised.

Yeah. Unbelievable. What is your take on law enforcement in this country nowadays and just sort of what's going on nowadays? You know, there's a lot of talk and I have no idea if this is your area or not, but there's a lot of talk about fear of oppression from government, from different entities inside law enforcement and so forth, and, and even having the military on our own soil here, possibly operating against civilians. Do you have any thoughts about all this stuff? Just a more generally more macro view about what's going on with law enforcement and so forth?

Well, you know, we have a tradition in this country of local law enforcement. And the reason that it was always kept that way and the reason that, that we've always shied away from a national police is local law enforcement is much more accountable. When you get a large national organization, it's very hard to pin down where the policy is emanating from. Whereas with a local police department, it's much easier to infuse the type of culture that the citizens in that area want. Whereas when the military starts taking a law enforcement role, you've got a real dangerous situation. That was one of the things that the founding fathers were very, very careful to prevent. But as far as you know, they're hiring good people, they're hiring procedures now, they're doing extensive psychological testing. They're hiring good people. They just have to have good people in charge.

And tell us about your involvement with the martial arts world and what you're doing there. First of all, maybe what are some of the benefits of martial arts?

Well, my feeling is, you know, martial arts make a bad man good and a good man better. But one of the things about martial arts is when you are doing these movements where you are getting exercise, you're developing coordination.

Strength, speed, power, you're also practicing movements that can be used for self defense. They have a secondary value. So it makes the whole process of exercise much more interesting. If you're lifting weights, that's all it's for is lifting weights. If you're playing badminton, there's not too many skills that you're developing there. So it's, I would say, a complete physical fitness process. But the things that we teach, not only self defense, but we teach them falling, rolling. More of my students have protected themselves by knowing how to fall. They never had to defend themselves from an assault. And the other thing is that they learn. Well, let me put it this way. We train the body, the mind and the spirit. Well, what exactly does that mean? Well, the body, that's pretty obvious. The mind, there's a tremendous discipline there. It takes a lot of work, a lot of concentration to remember these things, to practice them correctly. There's a lot of material. And we also train the spirit. Well, what is that? We're not talking about your immortal soul. What we're talking about is what we in the martial arts call the warrior spirit. And that's that thing inside you that makes you keep going. In a tough situation, when your body has said, I can't do it, your mind says, forget it, I'm finished. And it's different in every person. But in the martial arts, you learn to one how to ignite it and how to stoke it and then how to control it. And it can be anger, it can be fear of failure, it can be the desire to win. Whatever it is, each person finds it himself. Then they're able to take that power and infuse it into other things, into their work to help them through other problems in life. Life's tough, you know, there's a lot of stress and a lot of difficulty that you have to deal with. So those are mainly the things that we deal with there in the martial arts.

Can martial arts be used as a way to turn bad people around, the criminal element? Or is it just gonna make them better criminals because they know how to fight?

Well, yeah, it can go either way, really.

Okay, that's an honest answer.

The people who are going to use it for bad things, you know, and this was, this was a question I asked. I had a guy who was a motorcycle gang showed up at the school one day and I asked my instructor, what do I do? He says, teach him, give him a hard lesson. And I did. And he never came back. So those type of people, they're going to work the skills that are going to help them in the short term. They're not going to stay for the long term.

Because require discipline.

Sure, sure. Hey, one last question for you. Were you married when you were in deep cover?

Yes.

How did that work? Did your wife even. Did Your wife even know what you were doing?

Oh, yes.

I mean, did you have to live 247 away from your family?

Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes I'd be gone for days. It was very difficult. You know, I don't. I'm not even sure she's recovered from it yet, but she divorced me shortly after that.

Did they know what you were doing?

Well, she knew that I was working undercover in narcotics. She didn't know exactly what was happening. You know, if you read the book, you'll find there were a lot of things that I didn't report, you know, dangerous situations unless it was pertinent to the case and the prosecution of that case. I left it out because all it did was it made the command staff question the advisability of the project. And I was deeply into it.

Very interesting. Very interesting stuff. Well, Ted Sumner, tell people where they can get the book and learn more.

Well, they can get the book at www.deepcovercop.com if you order it on PayPal, there's a shipping instructions if you want me to sign it or dedicate it to somebody. If you're giving it as a gift, please indicate that there or email me@deepcovercopmail.com and I'll do the same thing. If you buy the Kindle version that's on Amazon, I can't sign that.

You can't autograph the electronic copy. That's one downfall with those. You can't sign them. But good stuff. Well, hey, Ted, thank you so much for sharing this with us today. Again, the website is deepcovercop.com and really fascinating stuff.

Thank you, sir.

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