LS 51 – Self Quantification with Ben Greenfield

This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company. For more information and links to all our great podcasts, visit hartmanmedia.com.

Welcome to the Longevity Show. Informing listeners on the important aspects of.

Health, wealth and happiness to ensure you live life to its fullest.

With fascinating interviews with top authors and.

Gurus in the field, along with the.

Latest news in the science and technology of longevity, we're going to reveal expert advice and amazing secrets of living a longer.

And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman.

It's my pleasure to welcome Ben Greenfield to the show. He is author of the New York Times bestseller Beyond Training. And he offers a balanced approach to fitness, nutrition and health. And it comes from extensive experience in fitness and wellness industry as one of the country's leading personal trainers. And one of the things I really like about Ben is he is very interested in using technology in the quantified self category that we've talked about on prior episodes and just helping people combine the physical and the mental angle to this so they can get fit, get strong, and they can optimize their performance in every area of life. Ben, welcome. How are you?

Hey, I'm well, Jason. Thanks for having me on. And if you hear a tractor in the background, that is not a self quantification device that follows me around, it's a tractor working in the front yard of my office.

Got it, Got it. And you're coming to us today from Spokane, Washington, I guess, right?

Spokane, Washington. Yep. I live out in the middle of the forest here and just basically love eastern Washington and everything that it has to offer. So I'm a big fan of hanging out in the wilderness.

Good deal. Good deal. The Pacific Northwest is just a beautiful area of the country. It really is. Well, hey, talk to us a little bit about some of your philosophies on fitness and wellness and, you know, combining the physical and the mental, I guess. Well, I don't know. You know, I wanted to say, does it start with the physical? But maybe it starts with a mental. Maybe it's, you know, it's certainly both. But let's dive in.

In this day and age, it starts with your internal biology because what, you know, just a decade ago, the the realm of testing yourself to see what's going on inside your body, testing your genetics, testing your blood, testing your saliva, your hormones, your inflammation, all these anti aging and longevity markers. This was stuff relegated to the folks who wanted to pay $10,000 to go visit, you know, Princeton Longevity Institute or Duke, one of these other organizations that you find in the back of Airplane magazines. And now anybody can go out and figure out what's going on inside their body and then take care of themselves and ensure that they live longer and they're around to see their grandkids hit a home run and they can think better at work and they can perform better in whatever sports that they're playing and have better libido and digestion and everything else that folks are looking for. But you can do so now with simple salivary and blood tests. And really that's where I like to start with folks, because I'm kind of an in the trenches guy and I don't like to get too woo woo and blue sky with some article in a magazine that says something's going to work versus you testing your own body and seeing if something's going to work for you to help you physically perform and mentally perform. So where it starts is with you, right? With what you need for your body, rather than what some book or some magazine is telling you that you need.

Yeah, absolutely. And we, you know, one of those keys that you alluded to, Ben, is that now we have, I mean, we're living in an amazing time and it's only going to get more amazing in so many ways. But we have the technology to get incredible amounts of data and feedback that we just didn't have before. And you know, maybe it's. Well, maybe Apple's going to announce something really soon that's going to make it even better. I mean, they say that the quantified self and biometric stuff is something they're focusing on. Tell us about maybe just some of the tools first if you would like. What can people do? There are websites out there that help you track this stuff. There are devices that you stick onto your body that help you track this stuff. Let's talk about some gadgets and some apps first, if we can.

Yeah, absolutely. So what we're talking about when it comes to gadgets and apps and specifically most of these devices are like Bluetooth devices. Really, that's what most of them are when we look at like Fitbits and jawbones and even these new devices. Now there's a new one that you and I were talking about before we started recording called a health patch that you stick to your body and It'll monitor you 24 hours a day. These are devices that will give you feedback about your blood pressure, your stress levels, your heart rate, your skin temperature. And I kind of have a beef with a lot of these, including the iWatch will probably be one of these as well. And that is that you're constantly plugged in, right? You are constantly exposed to a signal that has yet to be proven to be safe for long term exposure. And that's why I'm actually not a huge, A lot of people think I'm a big self quantification biohacking guy. I'm not in that respect. For example, my entire home is hardwired. There is no WI fi.

Yeah, well, yeah, I've done, I've done many shows on that. That's very interesting. You know, I mean, all of these radio signals around us, you know, nobody knows. But I'm sure there's more to it than the cell phone providers and the Bluetooth people and the WI fi people are willing to admit.

There is. I mean, there's a reason that your cell phone comes with a warning not to get any closer than an inch to your head. You know, so, you know, I live in what I like to call a stupid home. I don't, I don't have all these, you know, hardwired nest devices hooked up and you know, I do a quick five minute check in on my body every morning with one of these Bluetooth devices to measure my heart rate and my nervous system, everything. Then I turn it off and I put it away and it doesn't come out until the next morning. So when it comes to these devices, they are useful, but I think their long term safety and the pros versus the cons still remain to be proven. Now what I am a fan of is actually going in and getting hard data via blood and salivary measurements and more of kind of these lab on a chip type of technologies that are emerging where rather than hooking yourself up to a Bluetooth device per se, you are actually giving a drop of your blood or a drop of your saliva and going in and seeing what are my testosterone levels at, for example, or what are my hscrp, which is a marker of inflammation. What's that at? What's my thyroid hormone look like? And you can even do, not to get too crass, but you can basically do poop tests. I do that once a quarter. I look at what's going on inside my gut. Do I have a good balance of good versus bad bacteria? Because the gut is where your immune system lies and where 90% of your immune system is located and where you produce neurotransmitters that assist with brain function. And frankly, if you've got a happy gut, you're usually a pretty happy person. So about once a quarter I go in And I do a full blood test and I do a full gut test and I do a little salivary hormone panel. And I'm a bigger fan for long term health. And really knowing what's going on inside your body of those type of measurements than I am versus wearing a device all day long.

Well, I agree with you. So the question is, where do you go for that? I mean, is there a website where you can order these various tests and then you mail it in to somebody? Probably. I just did the DNA test on my dog. I'm in the Senagenics program personally. I had them on my show and they invited me, so I had to take them up on that offer. And you know, that's been interesting, but that's the first time I ever did anything like that, you know.

So you've got this girl at Stanford and I forget her name. She's been in the news a lot lately for.

This new service that she's introducing to a lot of pharmacies now where you can go in and give a drop of blood and get a lot of these measurements from a drop of blood, your hormones, your thyroid, et cetera, and do so at your local pharmacy. Well, this really ultimately isn't. Even though she's been getting a lot of press, it's not that much different than what's existed for the past four to five years on the Internet, where you go to any number of websites. They're whole websites where you can order a test at about 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of what you'd pay by going to your physician, for example, and you order a test. Wholesale Direct Labs is a good example of a wholesale lab testing website where you go, you order whatever test that you want. And when you order the test, you are given what's called a requisition form. You print that form, you bring it to a lab. And typically these labs are located if you live in a metropolitan area anywhere from a mile to a few miles from your house. You hand the piece of paper to the person there at the lab, they take the blood, and a few days later you get a PDF emailed to you with all of your results. And you never step foot into a doctor's office because what companies like this have are physicians on staff who are actually ordering the requisition forms. So you bypass the doctor and just go straight to the lab. You also have companies like Wellness FX where you go through the same protocol, but they actually have physicians on staff who do your consult with you after you've ordered the blood test. And you have this online dashboard where you're able to keep track of all the tests that you've done and how your thyroid is fluctuating from test to test, or how your testosterone is fluctuating from test to test. And that's kind of one of these deals where it's concierge online medicine. You get on the phone with the doctor after you've taken a lab test and, and whichever route you decide to go kind of depends on how much of an independent learner you are. I talk to a lot of people who will just go do a test through direct labs and then they'll use Dr. Google to figure out whether or not their thyroid actually is within correct range. If you're comfortable doing that or if you have a background in medicine, then more power to you.

Ben, let me just say something about that. So the Internet has democratized so much. It's democratized the world of publishing, it's democratized the world of broadcasting. You know, I mean, podcasting is a great example. We're both podcasters, we can reach the whole world now. And this whole, all of this stuff in medicine has always been like the secret domain of doctors. And they use a lot of Latin words and you know, medicine has got to be. And it's getting there democratized. And the frickin legal system is the like the last holdout. It's just ridiculous. And you know, this stuff is really, I mean, I, I'm not a doctor and you know, there are certain things you definitely need the medical system for, but for basic health maintenance, you know, we can all learn how to read and interpret these tests. It's not, it's not that esoteric really. You know, I mean, I don't know. You know, that's just my opinion and I'm no expert at doing it, but I'm gonna become one. I mean, look, just think about it. Your doctor has so little time for you, they are under pressure to see more people and do more things. Whereas, you know, if you look at your test, you can leisurely think about it and interpret it. You know, they're likely to just pass you on your way, you know, and get to the next patient. So in many ways I think it can be better to do this yourself.

The only caveat to that is that if you're say, doing a laboratory test and a lot of these companies, you know, like a direct labs, when you get your test results, there's an H, which means high, or an L, which means low. That tells you if you're out of range or not. The only thing that folks need to be aware of is that these ranges were based off of the general population, which. Which sometimes isn't the best snapshot, if you've walked around a mall or an airport recently, of the optimum levels of health. So you take thyroid as a perfect example. Really an optimally functioning thyroid gives you a TSH, which stands for Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, between 0.5 and 2. But if you look at what's actually accepted as an acceptable healthy laboratory range in folks, it's actually between 0.5 and 4. And you'll find a lot of times people who are between two and four, they have some thyroid dysregulation and their metabolism is affected by things that are influencing their thyroid. But if you're just looking at, say, Wikipedia, for example, has a fantastic reference range page for laboratory values. But frankly, some of them, if you want to be.

Ultra healthy versus just surviving, they're not the best reference ranges. So that's sometimes where you got to.

And frankly, there are physicians out there who post the real good reference ranges on their websites. And these are usually physicians who fall into the ancestral health community or natural medicine, or folks like Mark Hyman who are now spearheading the functional medicine movement. These are folks who realize that maybe relying upon the reference ranges for the average population isn't as good as relying upon the reference ranges that signify ultimate health and longevity.

Yeah, well, certain. Certainly that disclaimer is appropriate. We all know average isn't very good, especially nowadays where we've got, you know, health epidemics, diabetes, obesity, you know, I mean, just on and on, it's. It's pretty ridiculous. So we got that definitely. So, you know, you got to learn to understand the optimum ranges rather than just comparing the general population. Certainly. Yeah, makes sense. Okay, so those are good. So you just start taking an active role in your own health, you know, get involved in some of these things directly. Are they expensive?

You know, laboratory tests are getting less and less expensive. And ultimately, once we get to the point where we do have lab on a chip technology that basically uses nanotechnology and very small sensors to detect your levels of any given value, it's going to get to the point where it's literally just strips that you keep in your kitchen counter and you just test when you want to test. Right now, we're not at that level, but we are at a point where you can get a test that would have cost you about $10,000 several years ago. You can typically get that for about $400 to $600 now. And it can still be difficult to get insurance to cover some of these tests unless a physician has diagnosed you with a condition that justifies you getting tested. So that's the only thing is sometimes you're paying out of pocket. Frankly, for me, especially the anti aging and the longevity. And for me, because I athlete, the peak physical performance I can derive from this type of testing, that's worth it to me to pay that little bit of extra to get tested, even though I'm not sick. And it's only going to get cheaper as technology progresses. There are folks like Peter Diamandis is a perfect example. He talks about this in his book Abundance.

Yeah, I had Steven Kotler as co author on the show. Great book.

Yeah. And they go into this in that book about how, how quickly and exponentially is the word that they use. These type of technologies are progressing to the point where they really are going to be literally pennies to get these type of tests done that we're paying for these days in the same way that what we now have on our iPhones would have filled an entire room full of supercomputers several years ago.

Yeah, no question about it. Okay, so testing and monitoring, definitely important. Did you want to mention anything else in terms of resources there? And then I want to ask you about fitness and nutrition, obviously.

Yeah, no, those couple of resources that we talked about are pretty good for starting off point.

Good, good stuff. Thank you for that. So eating right and exercising right. What should people know?

You know, when it comes to eating right, I think that it's very easy to get carried away with a lot of the diets that are appearing these days. And you know, of course, you know, it's well known in the publishing industry that one of the best ways to make money is to publish a diet book. And I've certainly jumped on that bandwagon myself before and published diet books in the past or given a style of eating, just the word diet, just so I could make some money off of selling a book. Because people feel good about eating food that is part of a special diet, whether it's the cabbage soup diet or the paleo diet or any other type of diet. What I'm a bigger fan of now is simply eating really any food on the face of the planet that grows or breathes or lives or moves or basically on the ear as long as you can make it digestible. So what I mean by that is you take quinoa, for example, which is this amazing grain that's chock full of amino acids. And it's kind of become a little bit trendy these days to have quinoa. But frankly, quinoa is coated in saponins, which are irritating to your digestive tract. And it's basically saponins are a soap. So if you go buy quinoa from your local organic health food store and you cook it and eat it, you're going to mess up your gut and you're going to have a tummy ache or you're going to have suboptimal digestion for a few days because you've just ingested a bunch of soap into your digestive tract. And you can make quinoa digestible. You can simply rinse it and then soak it overnight, and it's good for you.

And so we have many grains and many foods out there like this that that can be good for you. Milk is another perfect example. When you homogenize and pasteurize milk, all of a sudden you make many of the proteins in milk undigestible, and you remove many of the fats that allow milk to be very nutrient dense. So that's a case where you take a food that would normally be natural and you make it indigestible. And so when you look at the wide world of food around you, I think the most important thing to ask yourself is two questions. Number one, is it nutrient dense? Meaning is it actually going to provide my body with a pretty big hit of nutrients considering the amount of calories that it has? You know, a rice cake is not nutrient dense. That quinoa that I just talked about, which is also a grain, is nutrient dense. And then you ask yourself, is it digestible? So, you know, the rice cake would be very digestible right off the bat. Rice is pretty dang easy to digest, whereas the quinoa wouldn't be unless we did what I just described. You know, you soak it or rinse it. So I like just that, that simple process of asking yourself those two questions. Is this nutrient dense and is this digestible?

So quick question for you on that. I've heard varying points of view on kale. You know, kale, like quinoa, is built to be this ultra healthy, super nutrient rich thing. But, you know, I heard it wasn't meant to be eaten just directly raw. Is that. I don't know what to believe about that.

Yeah, it's got a lot of what are called goitrogens in it, which can interfere with thyroid function, and they're very, very easily Kind of not rinsed off quinoa, but they can basically be removed or deactivated through the process of heating or boiling or steaming. So, like, if you're going to make yourself a kale shake, technically it'd be more digestible if you were to steam and boil that kale first. Frankly, it's folks who have thyroid dysfunction who need to worry about that most. And the average person can, can handle the gortuins in kale just fine, unless they're eating cups and cups and cups of kale on a daily basis, which some people actually do, depending on the quality of the blender that they have. Right.

So that's certainly a good point. And there are a lot of foods like this that can either be made digestible. Bread is another perfect example. You look at the paleo diet, which is very popular, and says, no bread. Well, I eat bread every week, but I eat sourdough bread. It's made from a local, you know, organic red wheat that hasn't been genetically modified for high yield crop. And you know, my wife and I make it and it soaks and ferments in a vinegar medium for 48 hours. So it deactivates all these digestive enzyme inhibitors that would normally be in bread. And, you know, the, the end product is a very nutrient dense, tasty, chewy sourdough bread that's fantastic and tastes nothing like the, you know, the wonder bread and even the, the quote unquote healthy whole wheat bread you find at the grocery store these days. So again, it all comes down to whether or not the food made digestible. And many, many foods can be made digestible. And that's the next thing I'm about to venture onto is I'm hiring a wild plant expert who knows how to find edible plants in your area. And I'm finding a person who's very.

Well versed in the flora of eastern Washington and having them up to my land here to walk me through my land and show me which plants on my land I can eat and how I can prepare them properly. Because frankly, we are surrounded foods that we can eat.

These newfound cricket protein bars are a perfect example of really making. And they actually don't taste that bad. I've had them.

Let's talk about. You talk about doing extraordinary feats.

When I see something like that, my mind instantly goes to, well, are you like an extreme sports guy? We talked about Steven Kotler, his new book, the Rise of Superman. Yeah, that's interesting. What do you think about doing extraordinary feats? And are There any good ones that maybe the average guy can do that maybe is something to work up to a goal?

Yeah. So I've competed in Ironman Triathlon for the past 10 years, which is one of the more difficult extreme endurance sports on the face of the planet. And.

I certainly have been an athlete my whole life. I was a collegiate tennis player and then was a bodybuilder and then got into Ironman Triathlon. And my, my newest venture is one I'll be competing in three weeks in the world championships of obstacle racing, which is like these Spartan and tough mudder events that you see where you're climbing under barbed wire and you're crawling over walls and flipping tires and climbing up ropes and these type of things. And frankly, of all the extreme sports that I've participated in, that one is actually the one that I think is most accessible to the average person to go out and just feel like a complete superhero upon crossing the finish line. And the reason is it's doable if you aren't able to finish. Like if you can't climb a rope, there are penalties. You can do like burpees or push ups or something like that if you can't make it to the, you know, through certain obstacles. But ultimately everybody crosses the finish line or everybody can cross the finish line.

In which one are you talking about? You're talking about iron?

No, like a Spartan, like a Spartan race or a tough mudder. Because an Ironman you got to have a wetsuit, you got to have a bike. You know, the average income in that Sport is like $171,000 a year. And frankly it's a little, it's kind of like horseback riding or sailboating. Like it's a little bit less accessible to the general population versus these, these obstacle races where you show up with your old crappy pair of shoes and a T shirt that you don't mind destroying and you just go get dirty for, you know, 30, 16, you know, depending on the length of the race. And I, that, that's a sport, you know. And I, I do, I coach a lot of CEOs for health and longevity and anti aging. And you know, one of the things that I have a lot of them do is go out and do an obstacle race. Just because you cross that finish line, all of a sudden you're just full of life. You've gotten in touch with the planet Earth and you've climbed over trees and rocks and you know, it's. And all you got to do, you can walk it, you can Jog them, you can run them, but you know, you just have these obstacles that you go over and it's very good for just getting a good perspective life as well, because, you know, like you've got guys like Ryan Holiday now have published books like the obstacle is the way that talks about, you know, how life really is about conquering obstacles. And I love.

Yeah, stoicism.

Yeah, exactly. So I love these races as kind of, you know, like a practical way to, to get to know stoicism on a very intimate level, you know, and, and go, you know, climb under barbed wire for a little while and get your hands dirty.

Yeah, yeah. Very, very interesting. Very interesting. So weightlifting, you know, any, any just like quick exercise tips or actually maybe a different question is, is, you know, any apps to recommend? I've been fooling around with a couple different little personal trainer apps and the ones I like because I'm not as extreme as you are. Not even close actually. But I love these 7 minute workout apps and 11 minute workout routines they have on some of these iPhone apps. They're great. I just put it on my wrist and just get in there and just do it. And you feel so much better.

Yeah. I've got a perfect one for you. And I have no financial affiliation whatsoever with this app. I don't even know who made it. I just have it on my phone and I like it. But before I tell you about that app, the most important thing from an exercise level is that every day you move so you're physically active. I'm a huge fan. Like I'm standing right now at a standing workstation. I walk up and down stairs all day long. I got a little pull up bar in the door of my office, so I'll stop and do five pull ups here and there. I've actually got a heavy rock outside the door of my office and I'll just go lift it and try and carry it around the perimeter of the house.

House.

I constantly am injecting physical activity and movement into the day, kind of simulating like a hunter, gatherer, farmer. Even though I work at a computer, by the time I've gotten to the end of the day, I've been moving all day. So a formal exercise routine at the gym is an option. It's not a requirement because I've burnt calories all day long. So that's number one is move every day, every single day. And then the next thing is lifting. Okay, so you want to lift something heavy just a few times a week. You want to go out and Do a weight training routine or whatever, some heavy tire flips. I got a tire for free from my local tire store and it sits out in my yard and I can just go out there and flip it a few times. Rocks, barbells, whatever. But you want to have at least a couple times a week that you subject your body to a load. And there's actually. It keeps your telomeres from shortening. So lifting a load a few times a week is a great way to live longer.

So I had the telomeres telomere test and I've been taking TA65. I gotta tell you, I'm not convinced on that test very much because, you know, they, they made me fill out this big long survey before giving me the test results, which I, I think that could be a scam. I don't know, it just didn't seem very legit. Like I want to do it again. Although it's very expensive, I want to do it anonymously, you know, and see if the results are different. But it's interesting that lifting weight actually increases the length of telomeres. And by the way, for those who don't know, maybe you just want to explain what telomeres are. But I started taking TA65, the supplement that's supposed to lengthen them, just for kicks, if nothing else. Wanted to get your thoughts on that too.

Yeah, TA65 is interesting. It's actually extracted from something called astragalus, which is just an herbal extract. And I take astraglus every day, I have for years. I'm not convinced that TA65 is necessarily more efficacious than the, than the far less expensive astragalus extract that you can get from your local health food store for very little. But the idea is that it activates a specific gene that can activate the enzyme telomerase which keeps your telomeres from lengthening. And when you keep your telomeres or keeps your telomeres from shortening, when you keep your telomeres from shortening, that is one of the things that can lengthen life. Life. It basically allows you to.

Basically as telomeres shorten, that's associated with decreased lifespan. When we look at things like fruit flies and mice and things of that nature. So there are no long term studies in humans that show that something like TA65 or Astragalus is necessarily going to make you live longer. But it certainly has been shown to reduce the rate at which telomeres shortly important. But frankly, so does standing, so does lifting heavy stuff. So it's like, I think you're going to get more bang from your buck by moving and lifting than you are from spending your money on expensive supplements like TA65 prior to any long term research being done on them.

But Ben, don't you know that everyone just wants to take a pill and not do any work?

Exactly, yeah. And that's where my beef lies with a lot of these supplements, is it's ultimately biological. Biological shortcuts are few and far between. When we look at.

There's a little bit of hacking though I think that's legit for sure. So I just wanted to spell that for people. By the way, it's way less expensive than TA65. It's a S, T, R, A G, A L, U, S, astragalus root. And you know, $8 on Amazon versus TA65, $210 on Amazon.

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So anyways, though, what I was going to say, I was talking about moving, I was talking about lifting. The last thing that you want to do that also has a really, really good effect at increasing growth hormone and testosterone, which is very useful for fat loss and muscle building and longevity in both males and females is a few times a week you want to spritz and preferably you want to do something that takes a little less than two minutes. And the reason for that is because once you exceed two minutes, you begin to use oxygen and activity becomes aerobic. And what you want to do is something anaerobic or without oxygen. And you want to do something that basically involves kind of running from a lion or telling your body, hey, you know what, we're still alive. There's no reason to start dying yet.

You're still moving and surviving. And so a couple times a week you sprint as well. But this whole concept of moving, lifting and sprinting is a really, really good way to set up your weekly exercise routine. And so that being said, this app that I like that is kind of related to this whole 7 minute, 10 minute exercise routine you talk about, it's called Safari Fit. And it's just a bunch of movements that are named after animals like the gorilla and the bear crawl and the lemur. And.

Each workout in the app is generally comprised size of 4 to 8 different animal based movements. And you can do it in a park, you can do it in your backyard or office or a hotel room. I'm a big fan of anything that's accessible and that you can do without a fancy health club membership or equipment.

You use your body as your weapon and you go through the workout and it's got different levels for how many sets or how many reps that you're going to do based on your fitness level. And I like it. It's kind of cool. It's simple. A little video of each exercise. And that's one that I'll take out when I'm travel or when I'm just like at a park and my kids are playing at the playground and I'm like, okay, I want to do a workout. So I'll just open up that Safari Fit app and do a workout. And again, I have no. I don't even know who made the app or I don't remember how it wound up on my phone, but it's one of the apps I use quite a bit.

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. $2.99. Currently in the App Store. Yeah, Great. Good stuff. Ben, this has been a really enlightening discussion and I just wanted to ask you give out your websites, tell people where they can find out more about you?

Yeah, I blog, blog and podcast and write articles. This morning's article was actually about how hunting can get you fit and how to get into hunting as a way to get ripped. Anyways, I'm just always kind of churning out articles and podcasts, and that's over@BenGreenfieldFitness.com good stuff.

BenGreenfieldFitness.com and just any final word of advice to wrap it all up?

Probably just full circle to what we began talking about. When you look at technology, biohacking, self quantification, try and find a good balance between finding out what's going on inside your body but not getting so carried away with all these pieces of technology that you wind up doing, you know, potential damage to your body. So I think it's. It's all about finding balance.

Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, Ben Greenfield, this has been a great discussion and go check out his website. Listen, listeners. And thank you, Ben, for joining us.

Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Jason.

This show is produced by the Hartman Media Company Company. All rights reserved. For distribution or publication rights and media interviews, please visit www.hartmanmedia.com or email mediaartmanmedia.com Nothing on this show should be considered specific personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own and the host is acting on behalf of Platinum Properties Investor Ink exclusively.