LS 80 - The Genius of Opposites – How Introverts and Extroverts Achieve Extraordinary Results Together with Jennifer Kahnweiler

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And now, here's your host, Jason Hartman. Welcome to the show. This is Jason Hartman, your host. And every 10th episode we do something kind of special, kind of different. What we do is we go off topic. So regardless of which show it is on the Hartman Media Network, whether it be one of the financial shows, economics, real estate, investing, travel, longevity, all of the other topics that we have, every 10th episode we go off topic and we explore something of general interest, something of general life, success, value. And so many of our listeners around the world in 164 countries have absolutely loved our 10th episode shows. So that's what we're gonna do today. And let's go ahead and get to our guest with a special 10th episode show. And of course, on the next episode, we'll be back to our regular programming. Here we go. It's my pleasure to welcome Jennifer Kahnwiler to the show. She is the author of three great books, the Introverted Building on your Quiet Strength and Quiet the Introvert's Guide to Making a Difference, and author of her newest book, the Genius of How Introverts and Extroverts Achieve Extraordinary Results together. Jennifer, welcome. How are you?

Oh, Jason, I'm great. Thank you so much.

Good. Now, I hope you're not too shy to do this interview with me.

Actually, you'll be surprised to know that I'm actually don't test out as an introvert, but I call myself a champion of introverts because I've learned to appreciate introverts in my life and in work. So, no, I'm definitely not a shy, retiring type, Jason.

Well, you know, that actually kind of brings up an interesting point. Maybe you can start by addressing this one. Is shyness the same thing as introversion or. I doubt those are the same, actually.

No, you're absolutely right. Your doubt is correct there. Shyness has to do more with social and psychological anxiety. It can be really debilitating for people. But, you know, introversion is. And thankfully, we're learning more and people are learning more about what this means. It's really how you're wired, Jason, just the way you are. There's no problem associated with being introverted.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I would agree. I would think so. I would hope so, at least. Yeah. Good. So let's talk first about your first two books, if we can, and kind of make the. And bring it all together with the idea of, you know, the genius of opposites and how these two types work together. Can you really sort of divide the world into two types? Only of course there are more than two. But I mean, do we all sort of fall into either introvert or extrovert or is there another category we're not thinking of?

Well, we're learning a lot about introverts and extroverts and certainly, as you probably know and many of our listeners, it's been in the press a lot. It's kind of a hot topic, you know, but it really goes back to the days of Carl Jung, the psychologist who came after Freud or was in that period of time. And, you know, he really said that there was a personality type that was introverted. And it's really, Jason, about energy, where you get your energy from. Introverts get their energies in their head. Extroverts from outside themselves from other people and get stimulated that way. So is there an introvert and an extrovert temperament? I would say yes. I subscribe to the belief that we are typically one way or another. However, it's really like a spectrum, you know. So you think about it, most introverts and extroverts are sort of in the middle. If you think about it as a bell curve, most of them fall. None of us, very few of us are very extreme introverts or extroverts. So, you know, there might be situations that we're very comfortable in, let's say when we're out with friends, being very extroverted. But yet when we're in a meeting with a tough client, we may shut down and really go into ourselves and be more of an introverted type person. So I always talk about what behaviors work for you and what don't.

Yeah. And I would say that probably everybody you would ask would consider me an extrovert. Right. But boy, you know, a really cute girl walks by and I try to talk to her and I suddenly become kind of introverted. It's a terrible thing.

Well, you're kind of cute too, but I think you shut down, right?

Oh, I don't know. It's just we get a little self conscious or something, you know.

Well, certainly, certainly. But one of the things that is a good indicator as to Whether or not you might be on one side or the other, Jason, has a lot to do with your recharge. It's like a battery. Batteries are recharged. And how much time do you need to recharge that battery? By being by yourself. Being by yourself. And if you say to me, and if I ask you that question, how important is that to you? And you say, I must have that after a day of being out and about and being with people and talking all day, if I don't have that time to be by myself and take quiet time, I'm really going to get stressed out. Whereas an extrovert will say to you, yeah, that's important, I need that. But I can't have too much of that or I'm going to go crazy. So I don't really need it. It's not a must have. So oftentimes I think that's the real differentiator that I found in all of my work and my research.

Yeah, okay. Sometimes I feel like that too. You know, I kind of spend my whole day talking to people and interacting and so forth. And I just really like being alone and not talking to anybody. How do you test yourself? How do you know what you are?

Well, there's actually tests that you can take. You know, a number of our listeners have probably been exposed to tests like the Myers Briggs, which is the one.

That I love Myers Briggs. I mean that's. I'm an entj, by the way.

Oh, are you? Okay, so you. And. But we may not. You may not be a strong e. You know, an extrovert. Real strong extrovert. And there's lots of available quizzes right now online. If you just Google, you know, personality assessment or introvert assessment, you can find that. I also have one on my website that you can take which really focuses is more. Which is in my area of expertise, which is more on leadership and the workplace. So you can find out how much you know about what an introverted leader is, what a quiet influencer is. And we rotate the quizzes on there, so feel free to go to jenniferconweller.com and see how high your knowledge level is.

Yeah, okay. All right, well, tell us about the introverted type because, you know, I think it's kind of like they don't get really. They don't get equal time, do they? In our society, the. Is it a valid statement to say the extroverts get all the attention?

It is the extrovert ideal, isn't it? Most of our workplaces and our Organizations are type A. You know, the person who speaks quickly or speaks, gets their word in there in the meeting is the one that everybody listens to. But in fact, the person who's introverted and is thoughtful, who may not speak up as quickly.

Oftentimes has more well thought out ideas. Jason. So yeah, there's a lot of prejudice against, and bias, I think that still exists against introverts, you know, particularly in the pressure to be on teams, to be together and making quick decisions. Those things can be a problem. You know, we live particularly in the United States, you know, it's such a fast talking kind of world and a lot of your folks who are investing in real estate know that, you know, there's a lot of, there's a quick pace to things and introverts take their time, they prepare a couple of their qualities, you know, they're calm, they're thoughtful, they prepare, they listen, they're incredible listen listeners. But that's not necessarily always valued by the rest of us.

I mean, I would have to think that if you look at sort of a type, you know, an engineer, for example, engineers are super valuable and engineers are in just incredibly valuable people in society because they actually build things, you know, and there's this. I gotta find that commercial. I don't know if you ever saw this, Jennifer, or if any of our audience members did, but there's a sort of a funny commercial that really play and it's really quite accurate. I saw it a few years back and it was this Indian guy and he is the inventor of the USB plug, right? I mean, what talk about something that revolutionized the world, right? Nobody thinks of it too often, but we use those every day pretty much, right? The usb and, and it shows, you know, a bunch of sexy girls pulling his shirt off like he's a rock star, right? And then the rock star getting no attention, you know, it's true.

I wonder what they were promoting in that commercial.

I don't remember even what the commercial's.

About, but I think a lot of introverts would be pleased to know.

Yeah, but you know, if you think of that mindset like the engineer type mind is a thoughtful, internal, focused brain probably, right?

That's right. That's right. And that's why I started writing these books and started doing more work in this area, Jason, because I was working in so many places where those brilliant people who we know have a lot of the things that we use and we take for granted have made such incredible contributions. A lot of those more technical people, the Folks that. Or financial people or folks that really work a lot with data and information, they were oftentimes being overlooked and ignored and really misunderstood. And when you think about it, their workplace and their organizations, their managers, their teammates were really missing out on, I would guesstimate to say about 50% of the population really is introverted. So you think about how that translates into, you know, lost revenue, lost productivity, lost creativity. So I was really on a mission to start exposing the whole idea of how important it is to pay attention to introverts and to value their strengths and that they don't need to become extroverts. That's the real key theme that I discovered, Jason, in really talking with so many introverted leaders. You know, people like Doug Conan, who's a former head of Campbell Soup Company.

I had Doug on the show.

Oh, did you know Doug? You know, he's a wonderful interview. And, you know, Doug is calm and he's measured in his approach. And, you know, you think about how one of the techniques that he used as an example of a wonderful introverted leader, he may have mentioned this on the program where he wrote those. He writes individual notes to people, recognizing them. Right. And he's known for that, that type of a practice. That's not something an extrovert necessarily would take the time to do. So introverts are so powerful, but I wanted to get the message out that they need to do it in their own way and not become extroverts in order to be success.

Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of them have kind of tried to become extroverts. Maybe they heard or been told, hey, if you want to get ahead in your career, you got to be more outgoing. Right. Or something like that. And so. So how can they build upon their strength? And then let's put it together and talk about how the two can work together more effectively.

Sure, sure. Well, I think I identified a number of strengths. I mentioned a couple of them already, like preparation and listening and taking quiet time and writing. Another that introverts use very effectively and having focused conversations, one on one conversations. So taking those and really leveraging those strengths. So, for instance, you're trying to get an idea approved by a group you're working with and, you know, instead of, you know, shouting it from the rooftops, the effective introverts I know have quiet conversations with the people who are the decision makers, we might call them the stakeholders, you know, who have some impact. And they use that strength to really hash out the issues, to go to work through conflicts to give each other feedback. And that would be an example of how they use a strength to really get their goals met. So once they become aware and own the strengths that they have, you know, there's no stopping introverts in being successful. That also said, all of us introverts and extroverts need to flex. So there are times when you talk about making a speech and being out there. There's many introverted leaders, people I think about an author, Adam Grant, that I know who wrote Give and Take and he talked about what he does to get ready for a speech. You know, he uses his skill of preparation, but he also practices all the time and gets himself over that, over that hump. So you still have to be out there and engaged and networking and doing the more extrovert kinds of things. But you can again use your strengths and preparation to really be excellent in those things. In fact, the people who network I know who are introverts, they take the time to consider, who is it I want to meet at this, at this get together, you know, what's my purpose? They're very. They use that thoughtfulness that I mentioned earlier.

Yeah, good points. Okay, what else do you want us to know about this? The Quiet Genius? I mean, you know, on the first two books, what's the difference between those two?

Well, that's a good question. The first book was called the Introverted Leader and that came out in 2009. And that was really focused on people who are emerging leaders want to really ramp up their management and leadership skills. So there's a lot of management stuff in there. I shouldn't say stuff. I should be more arrogant than that. It's real content. There's a model to it.

It's all just stuff.

In the end, it's all just stuff rather than all that leadership gibberish. Right. So it's really, you know, taking a model that I developed called the four Ps, which helps leaders and managers ramp up their skills so they learn how to have a conversation with employees and you know, and how to network and applies that model to all of them. And it's very user friendly. It's very practical, particularly for people who want to step more into leadership roles or increase their impactfulness if they're already in a leadership role. And then the second book, Quiet Influence, really emerged from a lot of people who said, well, I don't really need so much help in leading. I need to make a difference with people across my organization, with my clients, with my vendors, you know, people I don't have authority over Jason, but I still need to influence. So I created the quiet influence process to help them again step into their own power, their own introverted power in doing it. It's got a lot of really good response. Both books are, I'm very pleased to see have hit a nerve. And I guess I listen to the people who are my readers.

Can you tell us some more, give us any more tips about stepping into the introvert, stepping into their greatness. What else can they do?

What else can they do? Well, specifically.

They can listen. Listening is their sweet spot. And so when they listen, to really use the skill of paraphrasing and to use that as a tool for them to buy time. This can be very helpful for an introvert who isn't necessarily as quick in responding to a question or to, you know, in a social reception kind of networking gig, they can use that paraphrasing skill to say back to that person in their own words what they're hearing and it gets the other person to talk more and to expound. And so that's an example of something that they can do where they can take a tool that they're excellent at and use it to really give themselves the time that they need. That would be one example I think of that I could share. Another one is social media. A lot of people look at social media as it's like fire. It can burn your house down or it could really warm you. And so social media is really not an option anymore. We all have to somehow be engaged. But what I found with successful quiet influencers is that they're very thoughtful in how they approach it. So, for instance, they decide, well, what's my goal here? Is it to connect with other people in my industry? So they decide, well, here's the platform I'm going to use. I'm going to get involved in LinkedIn or I'm going to do Facebook, but I'm going to get involved in a group and I'm going to contribute and I'm going to follow leaders like Jason and engage with him online so they have a reason why they're on there. So they're not like the extroverts. A lot of times are checking and they're kind of random and there's no real strategy. But I think, again, using the purple purposeful approach to looking at social media as how it can build your business is really something that introverts can do beautifully.

Would it be fair to say that introverts are less reckless and extroverts are more Reckless.

I guess you could put it that way.

When you say would recklessness be a. Yeah. Would that be a.

Would you say risk taking? How do you, how are you looking at recklessness?

I don't know. You know, you're talking about like the preparation, the thoughtfulness, the mindfulness that introverts go through and it just kind of made me want to make that comparison. I'm not sure.

Well, no, that's okay.

I guess I may be one of the more reckless ones probably then.

Yeah. But I think what the extroverts learn from the introverts who aren't perhaps, you know, as rec. When you say reckless, it's all about risk. Right. And I know many introverts, in fact, most of the successful introverted leaders I know do take risks, but they don't do it in the same way maybe that extroverts do. They do it in a way that's more thoughtful. They're still pushing themselves. I found them doing that a lot like stepping out of their comfort zone and stretching themselves, but maybe not doing it half cocked like some of the extroverts do. Right. And they admire extroverts. Most introverts will tell you, some of my best friends are extroverts. I love their energy and they push me to try new things.

Okay. Yeah, good stuff. So how does this break down or you know, or differ, if it does at all, Jennifer, between the genders?

Well, the statistics are very fuzzy on all of this, Jason, to be honest. I mean, you can look at different research studies and I don't know that there are any more women than there are men in, in terms of introverts, extroverts, because the studies are really based on people that have taken the Myers Briggs and they're really a very small proportion of those. But I will tell you, I've studied women who are introverted for a number of years, several years now, and I'm really drawn to this area. Being a woman myself, but also hearing from a lot of my readers and my. And people who I speak in audiences to, who talk about the discrimination, I don't want to use, that's a strong word, but the frustration they feel in being women in male dominated organizations because you think about is hard to be heard sometimes for women who are trying to carve their path and connect with other men. And so if they are introverted, there's pressure to be sort of happy and.

Out there and engaged. The pressure that a lot of women feel to be sort of the nice, smiling, happy person. Well, Introverts who are in their head don't necessarily show that, male or female, but women feel some pressure to sort of be more social than they are, and I think after a while, their confidence suffers from that. So it can be a challenge for women. So it's a matter of a lot of times just really connecting with other women in their industry, in their companies, and really getting the support that they need. I was just at an international engineering conference for women, women leaders, and it was so encouraging just to see them really bond together and share ideas and hear from more senior women who have paved the way to get some mentoring from them about how they did it. And you could just see the women's confidence just rise in that kind of atmosphere. So I think that women who are introverted certainly can deal with it and work with it, but they do have some special challenges, I would say.

Interesting. Just on balance, though, women have a lot of advantages, too. So, you know, it's okay.

Well, you want to share what you think those are?

You know, I was amazed when I. I recently. Just a couple of months ago, I finished the book the Myth of male power by Dr. Warren Farrell, who was a big speaker for the feminist movement when it. When it began in the late 60s, early 70s. And he has really outlined some things pretty well. I can't remember all of them, but it's amazing. I mean, you know, each gender has their advantages and drawbacks. But I wanted to ask you about putting things together. How can these two work together?

Oh, okay. So the opposites. I talk about the genius of opposites. That's your latest book, right? And really, what I heard from my readers, they were saying, you know, so, okay, so we know we're an introvert. We know we're an extrovert. They can. And I really. I'm attracted to them. I think they're great. They bring so many qualities, but they drive me crazy, especially the things that we're attracted to. You know, opposites do attract. Everybody knows that. But they can also really go off the rails quickly. And what I found was the thing that kept these partnerships, or keep these opposites from going from imploding, from staying on the course, is they focus, Jason, on results. They focus on outcomes. So, you know, in history, we've had so many successful opposites, you know, even going back to, like, think about the Wright brothers. You know, they were known to fight all the time. They were totally opposite in temperament. You know, Lennon and McCarthy, Van Gogh and Theo, his brother, Tafton, Roosevelt, Siskel and Ebert. I realize I'm mentioning all men here. You know, the film critics, they were, they kept their eye on the ball. It's very interesting to read about them and to see videos of them and, you know, off camera, just ready to kill each other. But they both responded, respected each other's talents, and that was key too. So, you know, really working at these relationships so that they could thrive. So there's a lot of exciting things that's come that are coming out as we learn more and more, you know, and in today's world, Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg are very close and they're very opposite. Mark Zuckerberg being more the introvert at Facebook and Sheryl Sandberg being more the extrovert. And, you know, she helps coach him and he helps her on strategy and, you know, they make a wonderful pair in terms of leading Facebook into. Into real success. So, you know, it's very exciting to look at all that.

Yeah, I guess maybe that has to come from two perspectives when I ask that question. One perspective is, of course, each of the parties, the introvert and extrovert, knowing how to work with their opposite. But the other part of it would be say that you are in a position of leadership, whatever you are introvert or extrovert. But. But you've got these people under you who are different, who you need to help facilitate their relationship. So maybe that's another angle you want to share. Any thoughts on that side of it?

Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. I think that I came up with these five themes of the successful partnerships. But leaders and managers can certainly play a role in encouraging the dialogue between the two. A lot of it is about taking the elephant out of the room, so to speak. Jason. And talking about when there are differences. I have one of the themes that I came up with that was shared to me by a lot of the people I interviewed was it's called bring on the battles. Because oftentimes when partnerships are not sharing what's really going on with them, where their frustrations are, where they're out of sync, that's when you start to have some real problems. And leaders and managers can encourage that. I'm not saying have an all out war, but to help them manage crises together, sometimes you have to even bring in a third party, you know, to break through an impasse. But if a leader, a manager, is aware of these personality differences, they can be on the lookout for when implosions are going to occur. There was one manager who actually put two opposites together because he knew that they would learn from each other. And he sat back and he said, I knew there were going to be some fireworks and there were, but I was able to coach them through it. And now they. I interviewed the two of them and they were just like best buddies now. So sometimes it takes that kind of friction to really get to the other side. Have you noticed that?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Definitely.

Yeah.

Good stuff. Give out your website again.

It's Jennifer Kahnweiler. J dash E N N I F E R K A H N W E I l e r.com and everybody can. We're launching a brand new one in a few days, but everybody can go on there and sign up for our newsletter, take our quizzes, lots of free articles, and I'm also on Twitter En Conwiler J E N n and you guys will probably have that all on your site. J E N N Kahnwyler so I would love to stay in touch with your community and so appreciate the work you've been doing.

Jason, any closing thoughts on this? Just, you know, anything we didn't cover? Maybe a question I didn't ask you.

I think you pretty much covered it. I just would like to say that we all should appreciate each other's differences, and I think accepting the alien is sometimes the best way we can go.

Yeah. Excellent advice. Jennifer Kahnweiler, thank you so much for joining us.

My pleasure. Thank you.

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