SW 303 - FBF - The Art of Public Speaking with Bronwyn Saglimbeni, Corporate Communications Expert

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It's my pleasure to welcome Bronwyn Selly and Benny to the show. She is the founder of Bronwyn Communications and today we're going to talk about media training, presentation training and presentation of self training as you call it. Right, Bronwyn?

That's correct.

Well, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you and tell us a little bit about what it is you do.

Yeah, absolutely. So I am a public presence coach and that means a lot of different things depending on who I'm working with. But predominantly it means I work with people that give presentations, big keynotes or even that just want to brush up on their presentation skills in a conference room. The other side of my business is media coaching, so I work with people who go on television or who give press interviews. Anything along those lines as well, excellent.

Well, Bronwyn, how can someone be better on the stage? I mean, let's talk about the platform first. Then I'd like to talk a little bit about the media side and presentation of self as well.

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, to answer your question, how do we become better on stage?

Really?

The secret to being fantastic on stage starts way before you ever sort of walk the steps up to the stage itself. The most important thing for us to begin our work in preparing for an appearance, either a keynote or a panel of opportunity, whatever it is, is to first ask, what does the audience need from me? How do I teach them? How do I inspire them? How do I keep them interested, engaged, on the edge of their seats? And when you start brainstorming, sort of, what do I want to talk about or what do I want to say? When you start looking at that from the perspective of the person sitting in the fifth row who hasn't had their coffee that morning, you get a much more compelling piece of content to present. And that's half the battle, because the most polished, wonderful, charismatic speaker doesn't do anybody any good if he or she doesn't meet audience needs first. So that's absolute. Number one is to be crystal clear on what you want that audience to remember, to feel, to do as a result of what you said.

One of the mistakes that I think a lot of speakers make, including yours truly, is not really maybe distilling that to a small enough number of things or one thing, because how much can you impart to an audience in a given amount of time? Can they remember and do three main things, just one thing, ten things? Can you give any thoughts along those lines?

That's an absolutely very important question to ask. And really, one of the key questions you have to ask is, what do I want them to remember? And to your point, you have to remember, a lot of times our audiences are on their BlackBerries, on Twitter, on Facebook while we're talking. So I think sticking to a message of no more than three or four things is key. Having said that, we have to look at it from the perspective of if there are five absolutely critical things an audience needs to remember, you can make that work if you structure it properly. If you use a visual, a PowerPoint presentation that creates a mood and makes a strong impression in somebody's mind. But I think your point, which is so critical, is ruthless focus. What do they need to remember? And work backwards, and that typically when you're really ruthless about it, it's no more than three. But I don't Want that. It's not three for the sake of three. It's really just what can I reasonably ask this audience to walk away from given that I'm one of a million things going on in their mind as they're listening to me?

Yeah, I think negative editing or distilling down is really the hardest part for many of us, isn't it?

It really is. And you know, Mark Twain was famous for his concept of, you know, sometimes we have to kill the darlings. And I've seen many a presentation where a client will be so excited about a couple stories they want to tell and they end up on the chopping block because they don't map back to what do I want these people to feel, do and remember as a result of this presentation. And I think that's why that lens, not through myself, but through the people I'm serving, through the people in the audience that helps make the decisions very clear ultimately.

Good. So you were about to say the second point when I popped in with a question. Apologize for that.

Oh, no, no, no. It was a good question. So the second piece of what we do, first of course is always that sense of audience empathy, audience devotion. What am I going to impart to these people? But really the second part of it is working on authenticity and presentation of self. Are we bringing the best possible version of ourselves forward? The version of us that doesn't have the bad habits or that isn't held back by anxiety and also is that person that we're marching up there? A polished version of myself isn't really the greatest thing in the world. Right. So if somebody very polished gets on stage and starts pontificating and talking, a lot of times that person's really hard to connect with. Polish isn't always the ultimate goal. Authenticity is the ultimate goal. You want to look at somebody on stage and go, gosh, you know, I can relate to that person. They're real. They're not just up there talking about everything that's perfect that they've done or 10 examples of their in action where they've, you know, achieved magnificent successes. They're willing to be themselves. And that, that generosity of spirit and of being honest about who we are and where we come from and weaving in parts of our personality that, you know, some people, it's funny, I've seen terrible transformations happen where I'm working with a client who's very funny and warm and down to earth and engaging, and then she'll walk on stage and become this just deadly serious, buttoned up executive that People tune out after about five minutes because she's boring or he's boring. So part of it is making sure you're not making the bad mistakes or any of those bad habits are holding you back, but really that you're giving yourself permission to be yourself on stage. And that's a lot of what we work on when I work with people, too, is just helping them reclaim what is your voice, who are you really, and bringing that forward on stage.

So authenticity, obviously, is key.

Absolutely. And an audience can tell when it's not there. It's very. Even if it's a subconscious thing we pick up on, we can tell when somebody's not. You know, I always. When somebody says, oh, God, I saw the most boring presenter today, I always think to myself, the presenter wasn't boring, they just weren't being themselves.

Yeah. And a lot of times that's true, because nobody's really that boring if they're being authentic, usually. Right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Whenever I talk to groups of people, I always look in the audience and I say, you know, when I see these faces staring back at me. If you think about it, each of us comes from a completely unique background set of experiences, work experiences, family, upbringing. We are all absolutely unique. There is no way that any of us are boring. Anything but just a matter of sparking the authenticity in each of us.

Right, Right. So besides authenticity, which that seems like an obvious comment, but would you have anything to say about it as a way to maybe get more in touch with one's authentic self? Not that people are being inauthentic, but I think what happens, and I think point is that when people get on stage, they sort of become another person. Right. They become more stilted and more formal.

Right. I call it putting on the big boy pants or putting on your big girl pants. Exactly. That's exactly right. And one of the things that. One of the techniques that I use to help people, to your point, the phrase authenticity is like the phrase the word innovation, it almost ceases to mean anything. It's been used so much. But what I encourage people to do is listen to themselves and observe themselves when they're talking to their best friend or their spouse or their parent or close relative. Listen to yourself. When you're at your most comfortable, your most confident, your most charming, that is the voice you want to access for getting in front of a room. And that's a scary thing for a lot of people because they think, well, God, you know, I tend to be kind of funny and I really like to use humor And I'm not sure that's okay. Or I see the world a little differently. I'm afraid to put that out there. Here's the thing. If you want to stand out and be exceptional and be memorable and have a voice, you have to trust yourself. You have to trust the authenticity and the realness of who you are. It's enough. You are enough. And if you can make that change, that's when you jump off the screen. In fact, from some of my work that I. For television, there are just countless talking heads out there on tv. Countless the people that really transcend the person that you just see on an infomercial versus the person that becomes Ryan Seacrest or whomever it is. They're people that are absolutely in touch with their voice, their unique take on the world. We've got enough talking heads out there. Dare to be yourself.

Yeah. I think people can really sense that level of conviction even when they don't agree with a speaker. They love the conviction. They really appreciate that kind of congruity between the body language, the belief system, and what is said. And that really is very charismatic. Probably the most charismatic thing of all, isn't it?

I agree. I absolutely agree. I remember several years ago, I saw a speaker, Scott Bedbury, he had written a book on marketing, and he was basically the person, the CMO of Starbucks at the time when they really hit the stratosphere. And he was the person at Nike who did the Justice do it campaign. And I remember being so blown away by how humble he was as a speaker. You know, he had these incredible successes, but he had no problem telling us stories of complete train wrecks that had happened on his watch. And he said it was such. We were a very large audience, but the way he spoke to us was so conversational and so friendly and so disarming. I mean, I think every single one of us bought his book, and everybody, every single one of us pored over each story he told, and we were able to retell those stories very easily. He wasn't up there in a suit and tie, buttoned up, sort of speaking from the voice that you think a business speaker is supposed to speak from. He was himself, and he was so generous with his real experiences. And that is so key to being one of those speakers that gets asked to present and then gets asked again and again and again.

Absolutely. And I'm just going to be a sort of cynic here for a moment, but I've noticed this pattern with a lot of speakers that it seems like they got your message and it seems like they're almost doing too much of that or they're, they're doing it on purpose and it sounds, it sounds contrived sometimes. They're always telling the story of how, oh, gee, I was a poor homeless person and now I'm a big success. You know, it's like, and I made all these mistakes, but I got my life together. And I've heard that so many times.

This is true. It's so funny. I recently saw a woman who is a coach who shall remain nameless. And someone in the audience said, gosh, how have you managed to balance this and that and do this and be so successful? And she literally looked at the audience and she said, drugs, I'm on antidepressants, and blah, blah, blah. And I looked around and I thought, okay, authenticity is key. But there is a fine line between oversharing and pushing it a little too far. So I agree with you. I think you're absolutely right. Some people are taking it way too far. And, you know, I think that's where that balance and that lens of looking at it first through the eyes of the audience, I think when we put authenticity first, it can often become self indulgent. And so when you start with audience service and audience empathy and devotion, that keeps you in check. You're not going to go down silly tangents or try and prove how quirky you are if you are laser focused on meeting the needs of the people that are listening to you.

That's a very good point. What else on the presentation skills, I mean, do you go into the body language aspect?

Yeah, you know, I do. It really depends on each person. And there's some advice I got years ago from a mentor of mine that I continue to give out. If you speaking specifically about body language, if we are standing in front of a group and we are rooted and our feet are hip distance apart. In yoga, they call it tadasana or mountain pose. If the lower half of your body is rooted to the ground and you're in a strong position, your arms and your limbs and your movements will do what they naturally want to do. I'm not one of these people that's a huge fan of like the five power gestures of public speaking. To me, that's contrived. The goal is make sure you're physically grounded in your space. And then that becomes a launch pad for your body to do what it naturally and instinctively wants to do. Because when we tell stories, we gesture. And typically, nine times out of ten, the gestures match the story. The Tempo, the pace, where we're going with it. So we need only gravity, ground ourselves from the waist down, and the rest takes care of itself. Now, there's some people that get so firmly planted in the ground, they don't move and they don't use their physical space. That's something we work on, and that just takes practice. And watching yourself on a video can be extremely powerful. But from my perspective, it's the content and the vocal delivery that actually trump body language a lot of times. So if you'd like, I can talk a little bit more about the vocal delivery part of it, which I think is just critical.

Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. Vocal delivery, absolutely. That seems very subjective, by the way, so I would love to hear more about that.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that is completely my opinion. You know, if you did a formal study, I would be very curious to see who else in my field feels the same way. But one of the people I love to show in my sessions with clients is Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is a master at speaking slowly and creating enough space between his thoughts that it gives the listener time to catch up and time to digest. He is so excellent at it, you almost don't even know it's happening. And he uses such simple language, simple, vivid language to convey what he's trying to say. Say that you get caught up in the stories he's telling or you get caught up in whatever technology he's demonstrating. And that ability to use fewer words, to be more economic with your words is 10x more powerful to me than knowing where to put your hands in air as you're walking around the stage. That's a huge marker of a powerful communicator. In fact, they used to New York Times, when Obama first got inaugurated, they had this very interesting tool, and they played, you know, his now famous speech that he gave, and they timed how long it took him to deliver each sentence. It was shocking. It took him, you know what normally would take us five seconds to say? It took him 25 seconds to say, because he knew how to give each word weight. And to me, that is so important because it makes you a better communicator in regular conversation. It makes you a better communicator in meetings on stage. I don't care if you're talking to five people or 5,000. It also makes you better in press interviews because reporters don't have to scramble to keep up with you. And then we wonder why we get misquoted. Well, it's because you said 60,000 things in the course of 90 seconds. Right. So to me, that, that slowing down, that, that saying less, saying more by saying less, less is a far more important skill.

Absolutely. And I think the other great was Ronald Reagan on that because I mean when I watch him speak on YouTube and so forth, it just gives me goosebumps. I mean he's so congruent too. But I gotta ask you a question about Obama. Candidate Obama was a great speaker. President Obama stinks. I mean, what happened to him? Did he just, did he just decide that the job is too hard and he, he just isn't inspired anymore? What happened?

You know, I think there's a lot that's changed. Change being the operative term here, of course.

Yeah. Hope and change. Right.

Onwards the campaign. I think this is just totally personal opinion. This is by no means assumed truth, but candidate Obama was in the business of really selling a philosophy, a movement, an aspirational sort of, of view of politics and of Washington. President Obama is now faced with reality of what it really takes to run the country and of being far more careful about every statement, every sentence. So I don't agree with you that he's gotten worse. In fact, I think there's some places he's gotten a lot better. He makes much better eye contact with interviewers when he's interviewing. I think he's doing a much better job there. But I do think that the idealist that was at banging on the podium has now been on the job for a couple years and has learned a few things. And I think that's tempered maybe some of the enthusiasm or even some of the real. He had that wonderful lyrical lyricism to the way he spoke. I think in assuming that commander in chief position, he became a little less lyrical and a little bit more of a commander in chief. And I think that's part of the transformation that happened.

Yeah, I think, I think the reality has hit the guy hard and he's just. The idealism and the movement has gone. That's really what's. I think the first part of what you said was very apropos. Let me take a brief pause. We'll be back in just a minute.

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One of the things on your blog is about the five public speaking mistakes we Continue to make. Give us some insight into those five mistakes, if you would.

Yeah, absolutely. So that posting was sort of sparked by several keynotes and presentations I saw over the fall and the winter, which is a really busy time on the conference circuit, especially here in the Valley. And I was just shocked by people that should know better getting up and boring an audience within an inch of its life. I just. I think that's unacceptable. And so I got all riled up and I. These five things really stuck out for me. And the first. The first one was, you know, we all have the tendency when we get a gig or we find out we're going to be on a panel, or we find out that we're speaking at a conference, we immediately open an existing deck or we immediately go back to existing talking points. Now, I'm not saying that you don't get to go back and refer to the work that you've already done, because, let's be honest, we're all busy. But it's not where you begin. You don't get fresh breakthrough ideas by opening existing presentations. You don't connect with the needs of a specific audience that you have yet to meet with by opening something that's stale. The key is to always start, turn off the computer, go for a walk, whatever it takes, but get into the mindset of that group you're going to be addressing. If it so happens, once you've had a good think that you've got material that will help you get there, Even if it's 80 or 90% there, then great. But you never start there because chances are the audience can tell that it's old. It often doesn't feel totally appropriate for the opportunity. You can tell this guy just ran out of time and he's trotting out something else. And sometimes the presentation already exists on YouTube somewhere, and the people that have done their homework and looked at you beforehand are like, well, God, I already saw this. So that. That makes me crazy when I see that. The second thing that I see a lot of times with clients is they'll come into a session and we'll have a brainstorm around, okay, well, we've got this keynote opportunity. Let's brainstorm. And they'll come up with, you know, three or four ideas in the first 15 minutes and go, okay, let's build the PowerPoint. I really encourage people to go beyond those first few ideas. The first few ideas are usually good, but they've nine times out of ten been done before. The best way to approach it is to come up with those first ideas that make you excited and then say, okay, well, what if the audience has heard all of those things already? How do I make them better, more interesting, more edgy, more unexpected? That's when the really good stuff comes through, and that's the beginning of a great presentation. The third thing is, and this is vintage public speaking advice, and you may disagree with me on this one, but I feel pretty strongly we were all sort of raised with this concept of, well, first you tell them what you're going to tell them, then you tell them, and then you tell them what you told them. As an audience member, I am here to tell you that I don't need you to tell me what you're going to tell me in great detail. I don't need you to recap it in great detail. Get to the point. I've got my BlackBerry out. I'm on Tweetdeck. I'm looking at Facebook. I really want to hear the crux of the message, and only then will I decide whether you get to keep my attention for the rest of the time. So I'm here to tell you, you can let go of that axiom and approach it from a completely fresh perspective. Start off with a provocative question, start off with an unexpected story. Create a scenario, a visual in their heads and get people thinking. That's how you start off a good presentation. Don't start off by saying, I'm here to tell you three things. Unless it really works and it's unexpected in its context, then it's fine. But, yeah, I like dispelling that as a notion.

I heard that so much out of NSA, the National Speakers association in the 90s. Back in the 90s, that was the thing. It was that mantra of tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. That was over and over.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with repetition because there's a lot of research out there that shows that the brain retains what's been repeated. It's not repetition that I have a problem with. It's this wasting time that I have a problem with and that we all have such short attention spans. Given how short the attention spans are, a new approach is required.

Sure. One thing I want to back up on before you get to the next, I think you have two more points left. Bronwyn, you mentioned twice PowerPoint, and there are some speaking coaches who disagree on the use of PowerPoint. Certainly, I think PowerPoint or Keynote or whatever slide program you're using has made for inferior speaking skills because people think that PowerPoint will do the job for them. Any advice on the use of slides or other visuals?

Yeah, that's a wonderful question and really it's a multilayered answer. I think really for anyone getting in front of a group, the main focus is you, the speaker. In fact, a rule of thumb I always tell my clients is if WI fi goes down or if the computer freezes, can you deliver these same messages without any backup from, from a PowerPoint or a keynote presentation? That's how you know you're prepared. Having said that, I totally agree with you. And a lot of people way over rely on their presentation. They think the crowd is there to see their deck, which couldn't be further from the truth. On the other hand, there's a lot of again, going back to sort of research about what we know about the adult brain and how it learns and retains information. Visuals trump all other senses when it comes to retaining new information. So with visuals trump all over all other senses, you know, having a strong visual component can be very powerful. You can use words to make that visual impression. You can also use PowerPoint and notice it's not about having words in a 12 inch font on a slide. What images can we use to create drama, to create a mood, to impress a point in the mind of an audience? You know, and I'm not advocating like I've got this allergy against images of, you know, if you're talking about partnership, if I see two hands shaking on a screen to indicate partnership, I'm going to lose my mind.

It's like these cliches, the istock photo image, right?

You gotta go for the unexpected because that's the stuff the brain, the crowded adult brain remembers. So if you're using PowerPoint as a way to establish a mood or to help an audience remember a concept, I think it's very powerful. I mean, look at how Steve Jobs uses PowerPoint. He gets up on stage and he's the main event. But every so often you'll get this gorgeous, gorgeous visual that supports what he's saying and stays with you long after the presentation's over.

Completely simplistic. The black with the white font and very few words. That's it. No one could accuse Steve Jobs of reading his slides, that's for sure.

Well, that's exactly right. And as an audience, we can only do one thing at a time. We can listen to you or we can read the words on your slide. Which one do we want? As the speaker, we Want you to listen to me, right? I'm up here singing my heart out for you. We want to listen to me. So having words on a screen at all is really dangerous. And the really great presenters only have two or three max on a slide.

Right, so you had a couple of other points before I asked you the PowerPoint question.

Yes, absolutely. So here's another point that seems obvious, but my God, it's shocking how many times we make this mistake. Many times, especially the higher level, sort of C level executives will make assumptions about how much time they really have to present. Well, in CEO, I'll get at least, what, 25, 30, 40 minutes. Sometimes it's six minutes. It's so critical that we know before we sit down to brainstorm again exactly precisely how much time we have. A six minute presentation is worlds different from a 45 minute one for very obvious reasons. And so what I've often seen is people will make these assumptions about how much time they have and then they get up with literally the wrong presentation for the wrong audience. And it's deeply uncomfortable as an audience member because you can tell that it's going way over. The conference planners get anxious, it's a train wreck. And it happens every conference, everywhere around the world. I can guarantee that at least one speaker makes that mistake. So an easy piece of advice, find out how long you're speaking the minute you get the gig, and work backwards from there. The final point in terms of the mistakes I've been seeing lately that we all make is we'll pour our heart and souls into a presentation. We will think about the audience and their needs, we'll meet their needs, we'll tell great stories, we'll bring our most authentic selves forward. And then the very end of the presentation ends with a fizzle. It just kind of goes, well, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. There's nothing worse. When an audience has connected with you and been inspired and gone with you on this journey, they need it to end with a bang. It needs to be just as strong as at the end as it is at the beginning. Some great ways to end it are powerful quotes or another really powerful story or a sending forth question that you ask the audience to discuss and think about as they're leaving. Something that provides a good strong bookend for how you started off. And you'd be surprised how infrequently people really pay attention to how they end things. But it's critical because it is the very last point of connection the audience has with you, the speaker.

Yeah, Very, very good point. So you make me think of that Seinfeld episode where George. And you may or may not have seen it, where George always left the room, you know, on a high note. Right. You have seen it.

I love that. Thank you very much.

Yeah.

Doesn't matter where he is. But if he made everybody laugh, he would just run out of the room, exit stage left.

I had my highlight for the day. Exactly, exactly.

So is that really the point on that one?

Well, I think, you know, George's timing might have been a little bit off. I think he sort of opportunistically ended and walked out, even if it was mid. Mid sentence. So I think. I think my recommendation would be a bit more intentional about it and craft the high note that you want to walk out on at the appropriate time. Be in control of what that high note is as you walk off stage. God knows I love George Costanza.

He's great. And I know we need to wrap up soon here, but I got a question for you. How do you end on a high note when some formats and the format changes? Some formats need a Q and a session after the speech, so it's sort of hard to end on a high note. Do you take questions and then do the close on a high note after you have some questions? So it's not end questions and then the last question is the end. It's pseudo ending questions and then a real close. Is that the way you do it?

That's a great question. That's a wonderful question. And not enough people ask that question. Actually, it goes back to a technique in media training that anybody who's been through media training will recognize. And this is the concept of bridging. Bridging back to a concept you want to make crystal clear. And regardless of what your final question is from an audience, you know, absolutely, by all means, answer it. But the. But there are really magical little phrases you can use to bridge back to your big closing. And these phrases look like once you've answered the question. But, you know, the thing I'm most excited about or the thing I most want you to remember, or what is most fascinating about this or what we have most to look forward to. Those kinds of phrases instantly bridge you back to whatever that big concept is you want to end with, or whatever that quote is from or whatever it is. I have some clients that literally print out. I have, like a list of five or six examples of these bridging statements, and they print them out and put them right next to their phone because they're such powerful points of transition. And for anyone you're talking to, I don't care if it's a reporter or a friend or a colleague or an audience of 6,000 people, phrases like what I'm most excited about or what we all need to remember is they act as, like they magically snap people back to attention. And so as long as you use a bridging statement, you go back to the big closing of the big statement you want to make. It's very seamless and it doesn't feel forced, it doesn't feel contrived. It just feels like an excellent, well thought through ending.

That's a very good point. So bridge back to them now. I want you to give out your website and tell people where they can learn more. And by the way, I must compliment you, Bronwyn, on your vocal variety. I really like listening to you. You're very engaging and you should be because you're the expert.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

Well, you are the expert. You better be good at that.

You know, it's funny. Nobody ever compliments me.

Darn it.

No, I'm just kidding. No. Thank you so much for saying that. I appreciate that you're very good at it.

On media training, just give us a little quickie, couple of tidbits on media training, because that is so important. Speakers are revered as experts, they want to be thought of as thought leaders, and they want to do radio and television interviews, podcast interviews and so forth. There's so many opportunities to get one's name out there nowadays with all the new media. What are some quick things that can teach people about media training?

Absolutely. I mean, for those who don't have a ton of experience in working with the press, I mean, we could spend an entire day on this. But one really important thing to remember is just how overstretched these reporters are. They don't have time to know who you are, your background, where you want to take the story. You have to assume they've had absolutely no time to prepare for you and you want to do as much as you can to prepare yourself. In other words, they may not have even thought through the story angle very well. They've filed five stories before they've even talked to you. Really be in possession of what are my key messages? What questions would I love to be asked? What questions am I asking, afraid of getting asked? Do I have succinct answers that are 30 seconds or less for each of these questions that I just laid out? It's so important to show up prepared. I think too often we assume I'm the expert, I know this stuff cold and we get on the phone, but what ends up happening is that we talk in these endless run on sentences that are almost impossible to quote, and then we wonder why we're misquoted. So I think the most important thing to remember is repeated reporters and producers are taxed beyond the pale. They don't have time. Therefore, preparation on your end is key. What's the ideal headline you want? What's the ideal pull quote? Or what do you want to see yourself in print or on TV saying? What questions are you afraid of getting? What questions do you want to get? And brainstorm the answers to all of those. There's lots of other techniques that go into it, but that is the most important.

Very good point. So Bronwyn, where can people learn more about what you do on camera? Coaching, presentation coaching, media training, presenting one's best self, etc. Etc.

Absolutely. My website is www.bronwyncommunications.com and that's probably the best way to reach me on Twitter. I'm bronwynsf like San Francisco and that's another way to find me. But probably, probably the website is the best place to go. There's lots of great resources there. There's my blog and other things that I find interesting I put up there as well. So looking forward to connecting with you and anyone in your audience who's looking to polish these skills a little bit.

Excellent. Well Bronwyn, thank you so much. Really appreciate having you on the show today and keep speaking of success. You're doing a great job.

Thank you so much Jason. Take care.

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