#16: Christie Smythe - Dating Martin Shkreli aka "Pharma Bro"

Where was it? It was at Fort Dix, FCI Fort Dix, low security prison in New Jersey. I was visiting him and I just was like, you know what, I really do love you. And he said, I love you too. And—

Marty Shkreli, the infamous Pharma Bro, is free from prison. Last week I spoke to his ex-girlfriend Christine Smythe about her new book Smirk. Smirk is a weekly Substack that details her relationship with Martin. Regarding Martin, we talk about his personality, his time in prison, and the potential of him going into crypto. We also chat about books, capitalism, and the trials of journalism. Hope you enjoy.

Half redbone coonhound and the other half is like Chihuahua, terrier, random. And so I just imagine there was a very interesting coupling that happened.

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely an interesting couple, which is actually a good segue.

Right?

Yeah, so what was it like dating Martin Shkreli? I guess that's a good question to start off.

So, yeah, I mean, as you hopefully have read, the timeline here very, very sensitive and it's important to get the details straight. But, you know, I didn't date him until he was in prison and until I was no longer covering him for Bloomberg because, like, I'm aware as a journalist, you're not supposed to do that. So I didn't do that. But the, you know, we did really like hanging out together and talking. And that's why I initially wanted to launch, like, try writing a book about him. Because I was like, well, I have this great rapport with somebody who, you know, is such an interesting figure in the media. But anyway, that turned into— because I couldn't really sell the book, you know, it just kind of kept going into this friendship. And so by the time I finally decided to leave Bloomberg, you know, he was in prison already. And I visited him in prison. If you read the original Elle article, Stephanie Clifford, the writer, delved into some of those details. But I basically like just came clean to him during a visit at— where was it? It was at Fort Dix, FCI Fort Dix, low-security prison in New Jersey. I was visiting him and I just was like, you know what, I really do love you. And he said, I love you too. And, you know, it was dorky. I was like, can I kiss you? He said, yeah. So we kissed. And from that point on, he was like, he was like, can I call you my girlfriend? I'm like, maybe. And then eventually, yes. And we were— yeah, I mean, it's hard to— you have to understand, I mean, Martin is a very unique person. There aren't a whole lot of people like him. I think in some ways, you know, his personality online kind of reminds me of Elon Musk. A bit, uh, with the trolling and the, like, kind of embracing a villain image and so on. Um, and, and he's, you know, it's hard to— I don't know if sexy bad boy is the right description, but, like, there's something very appealing to some women who— about the fact that he has this, like, he's so profoundly vulnerable seeming because, you know, he's not a big macho guy. But he's also got this like bravado and this really intense confidence in himself. And the combination is kind of alluring. And, you know, he had a lot of girlfriends, a lot of girlfriends. He— in, in— I mean, it's funny, like, it's really not hard to run into someone who had some sort of relationship with him in New York. It's kind of a strange thing. And it's funny, like, I never slept with him because he was in prison, right? So you can't— there's no— the conjugal visits are not a thing. I mean, that's only a thing in like maybe a few states, but definitely not in the federal system. So that's, that's not an aspect of the relationship you can really have when someone's in prison. But we were so close in a different way. Like, when you visit someone in prison, you're sitting there face to face for like, you know, 4 or 5 hours with nothing to do. You don't have a cell phone, you don't have any other distractions. But to talk to somebody one-on-one, and we, I visited him countless times. I mean, many times, all of the prisons he was in, and we talked nonstop. I mean, like, we're just, we just really like talking to each other. And then that, in a sense, is almost more intimate than, you know, sleeping with somebody. So, I mean, that was the nature of our relationship.

Got you. Got you. I mean, it makes sense to me, like watching the documentary. Um, You know, he seems brilliant, funny, like just a, like a goober in like the best way possible, just like hilarious. And like, you know, he definitely did some shitty things, but at the same time, like, you know, we all do shitty things. And I don't know, he just like, I feel like I understand it. Like, personally, I feel like if I was friends with him, I would laugh all the time. You know what I'm saying? Um, I don't know if it was like that at all, but so yeah, I mean, we make each other laugh a lot, and yes, it's very funny. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's interesting now. So, uh, do you still have any contact with him?

Oh yeah, we talk, um, not infrequently at all. Um, I mean, we were just— I think he just called me. Yeah, it was like yesterday. I think it was yesterday, maybe the day before. Um, It was, yeah, I mean, we, we email pretty much, you know, daily almost. Um, and, uh, there's a prison email system, so just so you know, I mean, there's like a closed circuit system that where you can't access the rest of the internet. Um, but anyway, um, and it's monitored. But, uh, yeah, there's, you know, through emails and phone calls, um, yeah, we're still pretty much in touch. He's one of those people who are like If he's— if you have a good rapport with him, like, you know, he could drop off and not talk to you for a while, or something could happen, and then you start talking again. It's like nothing happens, right? Like, you just pick right back up where you started, or, you know, picked back up where you left off.

Got you, got you. And so how did, um, how did other people react, um, you know, family, friends, and whatnot, um, finding out?

Well, I think all of my close friends and family, when I finally started telling them, there was an initial shock, but it wore off pretty quickly. I mean, they just all wanted to see me happy, and I seemed happy, so they had no complaints. Also, they've all known me for a long time and know I'm like this really headstrong, independent person and that, you know, I'm not going to— I'm not going to put myself in a situation that is going to make me unhappy. So I think they all respected that.

Mm-hmm. Understood. Is Martin coming out of prison soon?

He is. I am not going to confirm, deny, or comment on any dates or alleged dates because I do believe that if you intensify media interest when he gets out, it's going to make the process more complicated. So because of that, I have just been very, very strenuously not commenting on specifically when he's getting out, but he is getting out soon. I will say that he is, you know, you may be able to look up on the BOP website. It says he's getting out in, I think, November. But just so you know, For the most part, most nonviolent offenders usually get a portion of, you know, some period of months at the end of their sentence that they get to serve either in a halfway house or under home confinement. It's kind of part of the rehabilitation process. So there's a period of months before that when he will be out. And it's still like technically covered in his sentence because he's still gonna be like under the authority of the Bureau of Prisons, but he would be in home confinement.

Got you, got you. And I'm very curious, um, what he liked to do in prison. Like, I've thought about this before, you know, I spend a lot of time on the internet. Martin seemed like that kind of guy as well. And in prison, you know, like, I don't know, I guess I would, I would probably just read and write all day. I don't know.

Um, pretty close. Yeah, he did a lot of, a lot of reading and writing. Um, if you want, he actually wrote, um You know, he's been trying to keep up a blog, but, you know, people on the outside haven't been able to always fulfill it. If you'd like, you know, he wrote a really interesting blog entry not too long ago, and I would be happy to show it to you.

That would be great. What's it about?

A lot of things. You'll have to see it. It's very long. I'll show it to you, and you can do with it what you want. Um, but it's, uh, you, you will see he has been doing a lot of reading, um, a lot of thinking, a lot, you know, he's the kind of person who just reads voraciously, like, you know, big long volumes of all kinds of stuff. Um, so, and, you know, it's, it's obviously a bummer that he can no longer work in the pharma industry, but he's turned his attention to other things and he's just as curious about those things.

So yeah, does he, does he— I'm sure he has thoughts, but do you know his thoughts on crypto? Because I could see him dominating.

He has a lot of thoughts on crypto. I think broadly we both kind of have— I mean, he's obviously more sophisticated about it than I am, but broadly we both kind of have the same opinion, which is like the, you know, technology, the arc of technology is it's going to keep going, right? Like, I mean, this is going to be the future in one form or another. But we don't know, like, if the cultishness is really like a good thing, if that will pan out, um, because crypto is very cultish, as you are probably aware. It's gonna have to be something that provides like a use case and provides value to people broadly, not just who are crypto fans. Um, and I think when that happens, it's gonna explode. And I think he, he feels, I think, very much the same way.

Got you, got you. And, um, I love the title Smirk.

Yeah.

So releasing it via Substack, super interesting way to do it. And just like kind of fun. Like it makes it like I read the first post, enjoyed it. Just very digestible, which is nice. Almost like more digestible than sitting down and reading a book, you know, and I love to read, but it's nice. Good stuff. How is it writing for you? Do you have the whole thing written, or are you writing like one week at a time, or how are you going about that?

So I started working on a book about Martin long ago, you know, years ago, and I've written a lot of material. I've written like 6 or 7 versions of like a 50-page proposal and various chapters and lots of content. The thing is, like, I'm the kind of person, like, unless I know where it's going and like, I can't just write on spec. Like I have to know like what the reciprocal, like what the receptacle is and what the audience is. And so for me, like when Substack was like, hey, why don't you do this as a Substack? I was like, chemical reaction. It was just like, yes, that is where this material belongs. Because it really makes more sense doing it like this than just like a traditional book. And so I'm taking what I have and like breaking it up and adapting it in these kind of thematic posts. So it's kind of like each post can kind of stand alone, but at the same time it's like stringing together a whole narrative. So if you get— if you subscribe to all of it, you will get the full story strung out through all of these thematic posts. But, you know, if you are, you know, if you could also like be a free subscriber and not get all of it, and you're still going to get, you know, thematic posts that you can enjoy. Just on their own.

Yeah, I got you. I, yeah, I'll do the upgrade. I wanted to, I wanted to make sure the podcast happened first and we talked and everything. No, it's, it's exciting. I mean, Substack is beautiful, like just such a, such a fun platform to write on. Like, I love the actual, like the UX of it is just really nice as well.

Nice. I was surprised. I was a little bit worried when I first started, like, what am I doing? Am I doing the right things? And I started playing with it and getting, and it was really intuitive.

Yeah, super easy. And then, so I just set up the paid feature as well. And it's been nice, like just, you know, hasn't gone crazy or anything, but just having that ability and then, you know, saving some of my coolest posts for the paid, for like the people who are like, you know, the homies that really supported and then also gifting subscriptions to people and people are like genuinely thankful. I'm like, dude, I just pressed a button. Like I didn't do shit. It didn't cost me anything, but I'm glad. I'm glad you're grateful. Like that's been cool.

Don't tell them that, you know.

No, no, exactly. But it's, it's been cool. Um, did you, did you think about releasing it on like, um, other platforms like Beehive or, or other ways as well?

I don't really know much about Beehive. Um, I only knew about Substack because, you know, I've read— we've, we, we have, um, at my publication at The Business of Business where I've been working, um, you know, we've, we've done a lot of coverage of Substacks. So I didn't know what Beehive was, but thank you. Now I know.

Beehive is interesting. I used it for a bit. It has like a referral platform. It was created by the guys at Morning Brew. So it's really good for that. I think it's best for like when newsletters have over 5,000 or 10,000 to start with just because it costs money and everything. But what's business to business like? How do you— what is the business of business?

Okay. So I worked for a— yeah, so I was working as an editor editor-in-chief for something called The Business of Business, which is a publication owned by a data company called Thinknum. And there's been some turmoil over the past week, and I can't really comment too specifically about it. But anyway, it is, it was really fun. And I really, really love The Business of Business. It's kind of a, like, a little bit like The Hustle, but like with a little, with our own voice. Like we focus on kind of young, hungry entrepreneurs who are trying to get ahead. People in tech, you know, people in other industries who are just like kind of scrappy. So like, and, you know, so I got to talk to a whole spectrum of people in tech or venture capital and people kind of like just doing really interesting things and doing new things. And I think that was really exciting.

Yeah, I'm looking at the story now. Honest NFT is recruiting vigilante hackers.

Yeah, it was a fun interview.

No, that looks— what, what is this story? What happened?

Okay, so there's these, these guys out of Stanford, um, you know, they're Stanford MBAs and PhDs. They, uh, so they started a startup called Convex Labs, which is like a blockchain security firm. And then they're launching this protocol under the name Honest NFT, which, from what I understand, so they sell NFTs, and then also it provides a means for incentivizing bounty hunters, essentially vigilantes, to help them uncover fraud in the NFT market. And I think it's super cool. Like, so, like, people would presumably, like, when this thing gets really off and running, like, You know, people with NFT projects would pay them some kind of fee, and then they would recruit these bounty hunters to essentially, you know, audit and check to make sure everything is clean. And, um, I think that's great, you know, that the NFT market is exploded, but it really is, you know, there's, it's a wild west, um, and there's fraud and theft and intellectual property issues. And, um, it's really nice to see some people try to find solutions to that that are like decentralized and have like a sort of Web3 ethos in mind. And, you know, it's like where, where everybody benefits. Right. So yeah, I thought it seems like great. It seemed really great. Interesting people.

Yeah. That sounds badass. Like, it sounds like a movie. Digital bounty hunters. That's so cool. I've been like thinking about that kind of stuff a lot. Like, I don't know if you've seen Ozark.

I have not. Everyone tells me to watch Ozark. I know, I know.

But like, I want a drama about NFTs, you know, like a Hollywood drama. Like maybe there'll be some show on Hulu or something, but I want the real thing, you know?

You know, you should talk to— I did an interview with a couple of producers in Hollywood who are actually trying to do that. Like they're trying to make crypto movies. And they actually launched something called the Flix token as a means for people to participate in the financing process for these movies. Um, where do they— it's— I have a story up about it. Um, one of the producers is, uh, the person who incepted Sharknado, like the person who basically did the initial treatment and like got it off the ground. Um, and I, I was like so tickled that I got to interview the guy who like created Sharknado.

Yeah, I mean, that's— that guy killed— I mean, if you're just thinking about like the virality coefficient and like the meme of it, that guy killed it. That thing went— that thing was huge, you know. It was a shitty movie, but like really everybody knows it, you know. Exactly.

I know I told him it was like, it was so bad that it was like revolutionary.

Exactly. Yeah.

His partner, um, in this project is, um, also is actually a very respected producer. Um, he produced the, um, Snowpiercer television series as well as another one, the Alienist, which I think was up for an Emmy. Anyway, those people, talk to them if you would like to encourage the making of crypto movies. They're the ones doing it.

Oh, I would love an introduction. That'd be so cool. They sound amazing. Yeah, there's just so many stories that need to be told. Yeah, I've been writing some short stories here and there when I can get away from the journalist stuff for a few hours at night. Yeah, just the idea of like, you know, I think gangs and that kind of stuff will be like moving. I mean, there's already like online gangs, but like anonymous gangs with NFTs. And like, you think about these Discord chats where shit is just going down and like, just thinking about like the humanity of somebody like in that and just all this stuff, I think is super interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. More to come. More to come for sure. Yeah. Um, yeah. So do you know, do you know what's next for you on the plate? Is, is Business to Business still happening or are you, you going somewhere?

Business to Business, I can't, I don't really know exactly what's happening with Business to Business. I'm still there. Um, we're still putting it out. Um, I am hopeful too that we can find a way to continue it. Um, if we can't, you know, I will focus on my Substack for a while and, um, you know, look for something else. But I do really love Business to Business and I really hope that we can make it happen.

Understood, understood. That's super cool. Yeah, it looks like a— I'm sorry, I keep looking at these Vigilante NFTs and they're so cool looking.

They're really cool, right?

Yeah, they're actually like, they're— I mean, they didn't mint out, which is like, you know, It's a hard thing to do. I don't know when they started minting, but they're like cool as fuck looking, like they should have minted out, that's the thing. That's what's weird about NFTs, man. It's like some of the coolest art doesn't sell and some of the worst art sells. And like I saw Bored Elon tweeted about that the other day, where if you think a video game is only good because of the art, you don't understand video games. Yeah, it takes so much. It takes a story. It takes, you know, luck. It takes just a crazy growth team. It takes all, ah, it's crazy.

Yeah. One of my favorite NFT stories was, you know, had all those things kind of going for it. It was this couple actually that I know of. They actually literally saved their farm with an NFT project. It was such a cool story. Where is it? It was— so these two, they— it's a lesbian couple, and they have a farm in— is it Georgia? Oh, no, it's— okay, anyway, it's in the South, and they have this— They have outside of Atlanta, okay, in Georgia. And Thorne is a former developer, software engineer, and her girlfriend is an artist. And the two of them, they were— their farm was in foreclosure, and they actually just out of nowhere, like, sort of hatched an idea to create this NFT collection called Dastardly Ducks, which was kind of based on these ducks that were on their property. And they, so they were able to do this because Thorne, you know, is a software engineer and was able to like mass produce and create unique, 10,000 unique ducks. And it sold out in less than 6 hours and made them about $120,000, which saved their farm.

That is, that's one of the cooler stories I've heard. Because lately, this entire week, man, I'm bogged down. It's been like, right, I know, so many hacks. And like, I wrote a story earlier, or 2 days ago, about this guy who, yeah, in a span of 2 months pretended to be like, created false identities and made 3 separate projects, made $3 million, and created another project and bragged about it. And, uh, you know, everybody called him out. But that's, that's a cooler story. Um, Yeah, I know. I was just reading a really interesting paper that Vitalik Buterin and some of his people put out recently, I guess 2 days ago, but it's just talking about the idea of soulbound tokens, which are non-transferable NFTs. And so the idea would be Harvard gives their graduates an NFT that nobody can transfer, nobody can move that, and it stays with you for the rest of your life, which is Definitely interesting. Something I've been thinking about. Still need to form my full thoughts, but do you think there's any chance Martin creates NFTs? How do I get on that whitelist? How do I make that happen?

I'm sure it's one of the possibilities that's on his mind. I mean, I think both of us are like, there's a lot of hot air in the NFT market, but if there's opportunities there, Sure. Martin is an opportunist. If nothing else, he will see if there's value. I have no doubt that he will discover it and he will make the most of it.

Yeah. That's definitely a good way to put it. I mean, he's got like a once in a— one out of a million opportunity right now where like the world, like not a, you know, I mean, the world knows his name and not in the best way, but I don't know, what do they say, like, all publicity is good publicity or something?

I don't know. Yeah, it's kind of, you know, it's true. Obviously, he's, you know, there he is, who he is, and he has the image that people have of him. But there's this, like, kind of counter movement where you can kind of see it building, where, you know, people have started to question, you know, whether all that's real, whether, like, you know, the stigma is really deserving. And it's not everybody, but it's enough that it's like, you know, it's like a cult following, right? And all you really need is a strong cult following to be successful in a lot of ways. So yeah, he does have, you know, he has kind of a red carpet out for him when it comes to, okay, well, you've got opportunity, you've got a name, you've got recognition, you could do something with this. You've got, you know, media paying attention to you. Um, if he's smart about it, yeah, you know, can make a lot happen.

Yeah, fair enough. You think, um, he's gonna be safe and everything?

Safe? What do you mean?

I don't know, like, uh, no, I was just— if I, if I— I don't know. I know a lot of people were angry. Like, I just, uh, hope he's like gonna be safe and everything. Like, you know what I'm saying?

You know, interestingly, and, and I think this speaks to who he really is as opposed to this image people have of him. You know, you think about like people who are sort of rich jerks in prison, they usually get what's coming to them, right? Like, you know, in prison everybody can see who you are, and they're not putting up with that. And, you know, status means nothing. In prison, opposite happened for Martin. I mean, he made lots of friends. And I've actually, you know, actually two of his friends that he made in prison were both such impressive characters and were people that I thought were, you know, really deserved their freedom. I actually both had some, you know, release. They both had legal efforts going on. There were legal people and advocates who'd been pushing for both of them, but I kind of threw my effort into the pile as well, and I wrote some articles about them and posted them to Medium. And in both cases, within a period of months after I posted what I posted on Medium, they both got out. So they were these two men, two Black men, who both had like really tough sentences for nonviolent drug crimes. And they were both such like beautiful people. Like, it was just— it broke your heart to like see this happen. Like, they both clearly were sorry about the situations that had led to their convictions. They both wanted to, you know, make the most of their lives. And to, you know, and they were like, you know, really positive, good people, both of them. And, um, I mean, one of them right now is like doing mentoring programs for at-risk youth, and the other one is like kind of is a clemency advocate. I mean, you know, they were like good people. And so I was really proud, and they both made friends with Martin, and I was so proud and happy to be able to kind of like lend my voice to their support. And then see them both get out. One of them got clemency from Donald Trump, and the other one got out because he was resentenced based on some change in the law. And it was, uh, yeah, it was great. But anyway, he's made a lot of friends in prison, which to me suggests that he is not a jerk, right? Like, because people in prison can tell.

Yeah, no, definitely. I, um, I don't know, it's probably, uh, it makes sense. Like, like I said, I, I think I'd be friends with him personally. Like, you know, I, I, I do. Um, seems hilarious in a, like, in a good way. Not—

yeah, it's just, um, I mean, frustrating because, you know, sometimes he does things that we're like, why are you doing that? That is, yeah, you know, like the drug price increase. I'm sure there were lots of people around him telling him that was not a great idea. And he was trying to mitigate the negative effects, you know, people who couldn't get— who didn't have insurance, he gave it away for free. You know, the whole idea was that, you know, this price increase would be covered by insurance. But, you know, it doesn't matter. There are people who still suffer because, you know, health insurance is what it is. And I don't think he really appreciated that and obviously didn't appreciate the optics of it. Um, and so like decisions like that, it's like he compartmentalizes and doesn't realize like how he's— what he's doing exactly. But I don't think that his— he certainly was never like struck me as like a greedy person or a person who wanted to hurt other people like that. I never got that impression.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, understand, understood. Um, I feel like, you know, ignorance sometimes is just it. Like you got you know, $5 million or, you know, like, or whatever, how many million dollars coming in, and you can't— like, for me, like, the blinders on or whatever when, you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to turn down shit, you know.

And it's easy to compartmentalize if you're like trying to go for a bigger goal. Like, I want to build a big drug company, I want to be able to solve— I want to be able to cure these dangerous diseases. And you're thinking about the financial resources you need for that. You may not necessarily be thinking about the downside of getting those financial resources, right? So you've got these bigger goals in mind.

Yeah, exactly. And it's hard. We kind of live in a time that a lot of people are very anti-capitalist, unfortunately. And so I think Martin definitely epitomizes capitalism. But I mean, it's tough. It's a tough time, but I don't know, there's this quote by Ayn Rand. Let me find this that I feel like you're finding an Ayn Rand quote.

Awesome.

Yes. Uh, it's, it's honestly one of my favorites.

Uh, where is this shit scrolling through my Notion? Read both, uh, The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

Yeah. I've read Atlas Shrugged. Haven't read, um, haven't read Fountainhead.

All right, I love the frown head. I think Atlas Shrugged is a little silly in my opinion, but, um, you know, it's like— but I still loved it, you know. It just was— I was like kind of laughing at her at some point.

Oh yeah, it was beautiful. It was, it was amazing. Uh, but yeah, this quote, um, Miss Taggart, I could proudly say that in all my life I've never made a profit. Her voice was quiet, steady, and solemn. Mr. Lawson, I think I should let you know that of all the statements a man can make This is the one I consider most despicable. Just amazing.

That's great, yeah. It's so nerdy, right? But I get it, I get it. I mean, it's both kind of endearing and also kind of silly and also like, yeah, I kind of also agree.

Yeah. It's amazing. I think let's end on that note. I gotta actually finish another article today, but this was super fun. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, let's talk soon. And I definitely wanna read that blog article. Let's make it happen.

Oh yeah, yeah. I'll definitely show that to you. Also, I'm trying to, if I can do it, I don't know if I can or not, I'm trying to start a nonprofit to help raise money for low-cost financing for formerly incarcerated people to start small businesses, starting with Martin's two friends. It's actually named after a reference to The Fountainhead. I'll send you the link so you can take a look. All right, cool.

We'll definitely check that out.

All right, no problem. Thanks so much. Thanks a lot.

Thanks for, thanks for coming on.