#87: Troy Osinoff — He Sold a Meme App for Millions

like I actually had like another random thing I was working on which is called Make a Dare, which is a site like you can just dare anyone to do anything online. And I was on Dr. Phil for that. Really?

Yeah.

So I got like grilled like a hot dog by Dr. Phil, telling me like that I'm putting kids at risk, blah blah, like even though like nothing was that dangerous on the site.

Yeah.

So I think like my parents see me on Dr. Phil, which usually like would have like the opposite effect, be like, oh, my kid's fucked, like I'm in trouble here. But no, they saw and they're like, oh, he's actually on to something, he's doing something that gets attention, he's actually like pursuing his career. And like that was like the flipping point for them. It's like, oh, he's actually doing like interesting things. Let's blow up the internet from the basement to the higher net. Scrolling, tapping, man, we ain't done yet. Let's blow up the internet.

I'm with an OG of the internet memes, GIFs, or GIFs, whatever you might want to call them. Troy is the founder of Make a GIF and, uh, investor in many companies and I feel like let's just chop it up. Let's talk about it. So how did you get started with MakeAGIF? You were 19, you said. Yeah.

So I thought GIFs were super cool. I like them. I like— I mean, they weren't as popular as they are now, but I had no idea how to make them and I wasn't going to learn how to use Photoshop at the time. I still don't know how to use Photoshop to this day. So I figured like, I can't be the only one with this problem. So I came up with a solution for it. Just like, oh, simple. Just combine images, make GIFs. Wasn't that simple. I'd like go through like 20 different developers to find someone that actually could do it. Um, but we were on the first sites to actually do it, combine those images and put them online, uh, and make it super easy way to make GIFs. And because like it was so on the nose, the name would just make a GIF. Like if you search for anything like related, it's like, how do I make a GIF? GIF maker. I ranked for number one for everything. Yeah. So that just took off from there.

Oh, that's sick. And so you were, you were 19 and you dropped out of college to work on that, you said?

Yeah.

Okay. All right, cool. And what did your parents think? I'm just curious. We got the, we got the Jewish parents. Yeah. They don't love college dropouts?

No. So like, I was in school for biology. Like, really? Yeah. So I, I didn't want to go to college to begin with. My parents told me that if I don't go to college, I'm basically gonna be homeless. I gotta get a job, you know, as you said, like typical Jewish parents.

Yeah.

Um, and they needed something to talk to their friends about, to brag, you know.

Yeah, of course.

College dropouts, that's half of it. That's most of it.

It's 99. Oh yeah, it's what am I gonna tell—

what exactly, exactly. I don't embarrass them. Exactly. Um, so I, uh, they forced me to go to school. I like the sciences. I'm like, I'll just go to school for biology. I was pre-vet.

Okay.

So I was in school. I didn't like school. I wasn't like— I didn't care about— I care about building my dumb websites at the time. And so I had— I started like building this site and started like some inklings of like, oh, there's something here. I wasn't making money at all, like just enough to get by. So I told my parents I'm going to drop out. They thought I was crazy. It's like, how are you going to survive?

And what year is this as well?

This is like 2007, 2008.

Okay. Yeah. So really crazy.

Yeah, it's a while ago.

Yeah.

So I dropped out. I moved to a fifth floor walk-up in the East Village with no working, like, heater, no AC, the buzzer didn't work. I was like surviving on 2 Bros Pizza, like a dollar a slice. Nice. And, uh, Mom's, which is like a dollar for falafels. It was, it wasn't the best. All my friends were like swiping me at NYU for food. So I just failed. Um, still thank them to this day for that. Uh, so my parents were not the most confident in me at the time, but I just kept, I started doing some consulting and I just kind of kept pushing it forward and, uh, found out some ways to advertise and get like advertised on the site. So like simple things like, uh, either can pay for a premium to get subscribed, like be a subscriber premium so you get make money for the MRR, or like when you make a GIF, uh, there's like a delay that's like, like ad spots basically. So it's like, you want this GIF maker go faster, you gotta pay, but just give me time to get my ad dollars in. Um, so then it started growing in revenue, I started to support myself, um, and then, you know, like 2 years later actually got acquired from a company that ad company out in Canada that wanted more ad inventory.

Yeah. So how much, how much did you sell for? Comfortable saying?

I did well with it. Did good.

Yeah. And so you were 21 then. You're in New York. Yeah. What do you do next?

So at the time, I, I wasn't actually exactly sure what I do. I just kept liking to build things, but I was investing in things like a friend of mine was starting up a recording studio up in Harlem. So I invested in the recording studio with him and I helped him start it, became a partner with him. He, uh, he got some crazy artists in the door. I got like normies around the block that want to come and record, but he got like Kendrick Lamar to come in, do like— he recorded Good Kid, M.A.A.D City there.

Oh my God, really?

Drake came by, Yo-Yo Ma, Beyoncé.

Like, you recorded all Good Kid, M.A.A.D City there?

Wasn't the whole album, but a bunch of it. Yeah. So Just Blaze was our in-house producer. I don't know how we got all these people. Like, kudos to him. I have no—

I can't take credit for any of this, but I mean, that's my teenage years right there. Like, "Bitch, Don't Kill My Vibe" is my entire—

that was at our studio.

Yeah.

Really? Yeah, that was, that was a good album. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, I was a little salty because we lost, uh, well, Hendrix lost. I can't say we lost, but we all lost, uh, Best New Artist to Macklemore, which is, well, kind of some bullshit.

I mean, he deserves it.

Yeah, we'll go with that.

We'll go with that.

But I did that, and then at the same time, uh, a shoe factory in Midtown Manhattan went bankrupt, and I found them. And I was fascinated with this idea, like, I've been doing everything online for years, like, what if I did something tangible, like in person?

Yeah.

So I funded the shoe factory out of bankruptcy on 38th and 8th. They had the entire floor, like thousands of square feet. And what I did was I killed their retail division and I went direct to consumer only before most people were doing D2C. So that became my main focus and we over-gifted celebrities to get like—

And now that's Nike.

It's actually Adidas.

Adidas Air. Yeah.

But no, it's that profitable. Made a white label division and yeah, that's still around. Company's called Modern Vibes, still around today.

That's crazy.

And just launched a bunch of random shit, man. I just kept like trying new things. Things and just experimenting.

Yeah.

Um, and then I got my first job after that.

Wait, you got a job?

I got a job.

Um, what were you doing?

I was bored and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And the world's largest HVAC distributor, they do like $7 billion a year in sales, asked me to lead their marketing. So I was like, all right, what's a public company like? I was like, probably like 5,000 people look like. So I went there and I helped like build out their consumer division because it's all B2B and help them redo like internal processes because all super archaic over there being like an HVAC company, like heating and cooling, not exciting. Um, but did that for a bit. And, uh, that was interesting. I was weird because I was like in my mid-20s, like mid to early 20s. I was the only person that was working in these executive meetings that was like under like 50, 60. Yeah. So they didn't care for that. Like, like the CEO loved me, which is great, but like everyone else there's like, why is this kid here?

I mean, that's all that matters at the end of the day, but it does complicate things. I have, I've had very similar experiences with that, especially with my like cancelable content. A lot of it, it's like, who the fuck 'Fuck, is this kid?' I'm like, 'Well, we're gonna go viral and we're gonna get you users.' Yeah, exactly. Works out.

Um, the process.

Yeah, trust the process. Such a good— it's a great line. Um, dude, that's insane. I do feel like every software person has this weird envy where like, we're like, 'We want to build something physical at some point.' Yeah, yeah.

Like, you touch something.

Yeah, I want to touch it.

It was cool like seeing like cobblers actually— all our shoes were handmade, you know, made to order. So seeing these cobblers like make these shoes and everything, like custom shoes, like when, uh, —what's it called? I forgot the 750s, the Yeezys came out. We just decided we're gonna make custom ones of these. So I ordered the shoes, I got them, we made custom shoes for the Roots, for Terry Crews, different celebrities. He's gotta have a big-size foot.

Uh, yeah. He's gotta be a 17 or something. That's insane. We had Shaq's shoe there.

That was crazy. That's crazy. It was like 23E, his size of shoe.

I saw that shit in a museum one time. I tried it on. Did not fit. Yeah. Yeah, dude, there's something about making physical things that's really— special when you're like an internet kid. Like, for me, I— my first, like, real thing, I guess, real— I was in high school, made like $40 grand selling Grateful Dead stickers. I was like, I just get high, make stickers, you know? And my stepdad was a big Deadhead and got me into it. And so I was just like on Photoshop making stickers. It's awesome. But like seeing that feeling and then literally the first day I get to University of Michigan, there's a girl down our hall who has my stickers. That's got to be cool. That was— that was a crazy feeling. Like, absolutely absurd. I'm waiting for that for to walk into a coffee shop and see somebody with Memelord open. Like, I'll be there. That, that'll be, that'll be a nice feeling. That's why I think it's interesting.

It's like e-commerce. Like, that's why I mostly stay with the e-commerce space now. Like, I think e-commerce is super interesting because it's like the best of both worlds. Like, you get the digital side, you get to like build out this digital experience, like target advertising customers, but you also have the physical side, which is obviously the product. So it's kind of like a nice marriage of the two.

It is, it is. And so you were just saying you, you helped with, uh, Feastables, MrBeast's brand. Yep. Um, what's your thoughts on— should I be, should I be launching cookies or chocolate? Of course. Yeah. Meme chocolate.

Yeah, there's not enough chocolate in the world.

I do have a coffee brand actually accidentally coming out. Coffee's a great business, very sticky subscriptions.

Kind of almost like a white-labeled thing.

Coffee does well if you get in the right audience.

True, true. Get subscriptions going. That's true. People don't really cancel coffee that much.

They don't cancel it, and it's not— it's sort of a vice.

But like, oh, it's definitely a vice. Like caffeine, like, it could be worse. Caffeine is a vice.

It could be like, could be like drugs or nicotine. I guess it is a drug, but it's a nice drug.

It's a nice—

like, I guess when this podcast— so one of my, uh, readers wanted to advertise with me and he runs a coffee brand and he was like, let's make a custom Memelord coffee. So I'm stoked. It has like the hooded Wojak guy drinking the coffee on it. Um, uh, it's on its way here to New York and to my parents. So I'm going to surprise them with that. Nice.

Let me know what it comes out.

I'll order some. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Hopefully it's good. We'll see. I'll be honest. Yeah. Yeah. No, for real. So you got, you got the Feastables brand and now investing in a ton of different things. Is there anything that's like specifically exciting?

I don't know. So like I have, well, I have my like marketing agency and I have the dev shop. So Juice is a marketing agency, Peachy is a dev shop.

So do you, for the marketing, sorry to interrupt, but marketing, dev agency, Do you take cash and equity? Is that how it works generally?

No, we usually just do like client relationship and then like sometimes I'll invest in brands and stuff like that on the side. Okay. All right. I'm also a partner in a fund, so like my fund either invests or they don't. My fund doesn't invest. I'll sometimes invest personally if it's not a fit for like the fund. Okay. Got you. Yeah. My fund doesn't also do later stage stuff. So like, like MrBeast, like that was like I invested that personally just because it's too late. My fund's an early stage fund.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. All right. Interesting. Uh, and, um, so you say stay involved with, with memes, internet stuff. Twitter's kind of main platform. Love Twitter. You've been growing on there for— how did you get Yo? Did you buy it or did you get it early?

No, so I, uh, so I was on Twitter for a long time.

Day one or like early, early days.

Yeah, for sure. And when they were building out their ad original, like ad platform, uh, I was helping the team. Like they were just asking me like, get like, cause I was trying to advertise. They were giving me like, I was getting feedback. I was consulting with them. And they're offering like consultants the time money. I'm like, yo, just give me a few handles. So like I was like, can I get like yo? And they're like, oh yeah, sure, take it. I was like, all right. Because my handle before wasn't a great one, but now I have yo.

That's crazy. I really think they can make so much money if they turn the empty handles into some marketplace. They are selling them. They're selling them on the low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like minimum 50. Something crazy. Something crazy. Yeah. Because I wanted @troy and I'm like, Troy, I want to like— Is anybody using it right now? No one's using it.

So like @yo is like— I have like yo, like my company is like like, yo, VC is like my personal brand, but I want like a personal, like myself. So like @troy, I was trying to get, but they're like, they're just getting headaches.

It's almost like a, like that Saudi money that just has like the high-rise apartments, they're just sitting on it. It's like, what are you gonna do with it?

Just chilling.

Just give— I want somebody— I get those spam DMs or like, do you want Jason? I'm like, yeah, I really don't think Jason Calcanis is gonna give that up.

But yeah, you never know, he might fall on tough times, market's down.

Yeah, if Uber goes down.

Yeah, Uber keeps going down, you never know.

Yeah, fair enough. Um, So, so juice in general, you know, the fun. How do you balance everything, dude? Like, I do a lot of weird shit too. I do a lot of weird shit. Yeah. You got caffeine. A lot of caffeine. How do you balance everything?

I sleep. What's that? Yeah, exactly. I like just bad ADHD. I do a lot of different things. I, I have an assistant that keeps me in check. Okay. But generally, like, he just hounds me out, like, literally, like, He just texted me all day like, Troy, you got to destroy it on this, try it on this. Like, it's really funny.

I'm realizing assistant is just a manager for entrepreneurs.

Yes. Yeah, I kind of want one now. You should.

Like, I didn't realize that. I always thought vice versa, but now I'm getting it.

No, like at first, like you manage them, but then the roles switch and they start managing you once they get to know you. It's like, oh no, Troy, you're like, you got to go. Like you have like a podcast, you got to do it. Troy, you got like, you got to send this email. Troy, you didn't do this. Is it—

are they, are they physical or VA?

Um, I used to have physical, like someone in person. Yeah, it wasn't really like necessary. Like I don't need someone like picking shit up for me or anything. It's like, that's what usually in-person's for. That's fair.

I, I had this tweet that I've been saving where it's like levels of success is like AI assistant and then, uh, you know, VA and then like a physical assistant. So I feel like that's, that's like—

I downgraded them.

Yeah, yeah. But like, but that's a choice, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's a choice. It would be nice. It's also, uh, I don't know if, if you find— found this, like, you hire college kids at all? Like NYU kids when you were, when you were younger at all? Yeah, yeah. It's like, it feels like they just have too much money to like work at this point.

It's funny because like that was like the cliché was for is like you got to get like a hungry like college kid. Like they don't really exist anymore. No, like they all like, they're all vibe coding or all they're doing or they're getting like a well-paying job right out of college.

So yeah, a lot of, a lot of them are, or, um, or they think that it's so easy because they see like all these young creators or whatever, whoever's making millions, and they're like Why the hell am I gonna work hard? You know, it's true. It's true. It's sad. It's really sad. So you started designing websites when you were 9, you said?

Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, so when I was 9, um, I, uh, I was going to— I honestly, with the two stories that I was going door-to-door washing cars because I wanted to save up money to buy Pokémon cards, and like, I was like, there's got to be a better way to make money. And I found out like I can make websites pretty easily like by using like these free hosting sites. So I used to just mess around with the websites and make websites, then when I started doing them, like, oh, I can charge, you know, $50 a pop for websites, people in my neighborhood or like adjacent neighborhoods, make websites for them.

You hit up Chamber of Commerce? That's what I did. Which one?

Oh, I didn't do— I should have. I was literally just literally door-to-door telling them like, hey, does you need a website?

Door-to-door website sales? Yes. It's hilarious. I was 14 and got the Chamber of Commerce thing and just emailed everybody. That's a much larger process. Like a painter. Well, I had 5 years on you.

Fair, fair. Yeah, I was literally— it's like, well, I hit them up for like for car wash and they know me already. So I just ask them their business. So like, like a doctor's office. I'll make a website for him, like random, like this is $50 easy for them.

They felt good paying you.

Um, not that I have any more. A few Charizards though. My parents threw them out. Oh, the worst. That's right. Uh, but dude, I was literally, um, so I didn't know how to code. There's not as much resource online at the time. So I would literally bug my dad to drive me to Barnes Noble. And what I would do is nerdiest shit ever, but I'd literally have a notebook with me and I'd handwrite code. And I'd, cause my dad wouldn't buy the books. They're like $300 each. Yeah. Um, so I'd go home and I'd try the code that I handwrite. I wrote, and then I'd go back like a few days later and write down more code. And that's how I learned how to code when I was a kid.

That's sick.

I don't know if that's a word, but I don't know. I think that's cool.

Like, personally, that's like kind of the obsession kind of shit that I love.

Like, yeah, I was, I was all into it. I thought it was the coolest thing that like I could do something on my computer that everyone in the world can see. And it was like my version of like nerdy art, basically. Yeah, 100%.

I mean, that's, uh, dude, you sent me on your way here your new portfolio site. It's the same thing. Like, I mean, I'm the same way. I've been making weird shit on the internet. Like, YouTube videos, websites. Like, literally, if you go back to my profile pictures on Facebook, it's my face cut out and then like words next to it. It was like memes, like the same face swapping thing. Like, I'm just doing the same thing. Oh yeah. And it's definitely weird. I'm sure, as we were saying, your parents at first are like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, it's like, oh, there's something there.

Yeah. My parents, like, even like I had Make-A-GIF, they were like, they still weren't convinced.

Like, it was probably acquisition or what?

Well, before I got the acquisition, I forgot to mention, like, I actually had like another random thing I was working on, which is called Make a Dare, which is a site like you can just dare anyone to do anything online. And I was on Dr. Phil for that. Really? Yeah. So I got like grilled like a hot dog by Dr. Phil, like telling me like that I'm putting kids at risk. Well, like, even though like nothing was that dangerous on the site. Yeah, but like doing dares online. So I think like my parents see me on Dr. Phil, which usually like would have like the opposite effect, be like, oh, my kid's fucked. Like, I'm in trouble here. But no, I saw them like, oh, he's actually on to something. He's doing something that gets attention. He's actually like pursuing his career, like that was like the flipping point for them. It's like, oh, he's actually doing like interesting things. Wow. Yeah.

So you were on Dr. Phil at like 19, 20? Were you on Maury too? I was on a few talk shows. Really?

Yeah, I was on a bunch. Um, I went on this like mini like tour of different talk shows after I was on Dr. Phil. A bunch of other ones asked me to go on.

Yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Yeah, I did a lot of— yeah, I did a lot of random things. I wrote a book when I was younger, when I was in my early 20s. Like, what'd you write a book about? Uh, it's super— like, I'm telling you, my shit's like all over the place, but I, uh I had a Tumblr that I made about funny parenting photos. I don't know why I made it. I was in my early 20s, don't have kids still, but I made a parenting like Tumblr and, uh, it went viral cuz Howard Stern talked about it. And then Chicago Tribune, all these different publishers started talking about it. And then ICM hit me up to do a book deal and I thought I was being pranked. I'm like, there's no way I'm actually getting a book deal. And then I sent a book off. They had, um, we had a, a pack we put together and we sent off to different publishers like Simon Schuster, Penguin, everyone. And Penguin picked it up and wrote a book with them. And then I sold the rights to that book to John Krasinski.

To Krasinski? Yeah. That's so random. Why?

He wanted to turn it into a TV show. Did he not? No, I mean, they bought— he bought the rights, but it never actually turned into anything. I just kind of shelved it. That's amazing.

It was still cool. That's all good. Like, there's a lot of those cases. I've been reading a ton about stuff, reading, uh, you sell— authors sell the rights, even if it doesn't get to make a movie. It's good money.

No, it was— the money was fine, like, but it was just honestly, I was like, I like The Office. I'm like, that's cool. Like, we had offers from a different— different people. Like, he didn't give me the— like, it wasn't the highest offer, but I was like, Jonathan Levin is pretty cool. So that's pretty sick. So I did it more so like for myself.

I didn't know he was— that's interesting. I guess he's, he's been on the producer path for a while trying to go that route.

He had a deal with Fox where he had to buy up like a few— like produce a few different shows. I don't know if he actually like were to produce any, but that was like what he bought it for is like to fill his allotment. Was like, pretty shows. Interesting. It was him and some dude from Family Guy, not Seth MacFarlane, but someone else.

That's fascinating.

I'll send you the Variety article later.

Okay. All right, I'll read it. All right, that's too funny, man. Um, how do you spend most of your days? What's like— what's, what's most of your days look like?

Um, I mean, every day is different. I, I travel between here and Miami, like New York and Miami, so I bounce around a lot. I travel a lot. Um, I, uh, I stay up way too late just like browsing, being a creature of the internet. But like, and I sleep in a little bit. Like, I'm not an early morning person. I don't really take meetings before 12 if I can avoid it. And like, everything, like mornings are just for like, you know, catching up and surviving from the night before.

Exactly. So yeah, there's a, there's a good line, uh, I think it's Hemingway or Vonnegut. It's like, every day I wake up and, and, uh, it's like a bomb goes off and I pick myself back, put, put the pieces back.

That's how I feel every day. Yeah, the caffeine does that.

Exactly. But it's worth it because I'm having fun. Yeah, exactly.

No, I every day I have like, so like since I'm doing so many like different things, whether it's the agency, whether it's investing, whether it's consulting, whatever it may be, or tinkering with side projects. Yeah. Like just my days filled different things and like I go with my assistant, like what I have to do and he's like organizing my life.

That does sound helpful. Shit.

I'm slowly just trying to get incepted.

Yeah. I had this conversation with another founder and they've been trying, I've been, people have been trying to incept me on these things. Honestly, it's pretty great. Cause I thought it would ruin my like sense of freedom if I had somebody managing us. No, you could always say no.

That's what I do. I just drive my assistant crazy, but he puts up with me, so it's okay.

Yeah, he tolerates me. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. Um, yeah, do you, uh, you ever like get stressed out? Too much shit to do?

Um, not really. Like, there's such like— it's so lame to the cliché quote though, like, but I truly like live it and like, like truly believe it is like, pick a job you like and never work a day in your life. Yeah. And like, all the stuff I'm doing, it doesn't feel like work to me. It feels like I'm You know, just solving puzzles, and I kind of like doing that.

Yeah, I like— I— it's weird, I hate puzzles. Yeah, like actual puzzles. Yeah, but I love puzzles that make money. And like, my parents don't get it. Like, when— or my mom are like, why don't you— you used to love making puzzles. It's like, well, I found ones that have profit. Yeah, it's like I don't play video games, like I play social media.

Well, it's like, you know, like the Game of Life, or it's like you're figuring out like how ways to make money. It's like, you know, all these different like levers you're pulling in different strategies you're trying out. Like, you're just really trying out new ways to make money, which is a puzzle in itself. And again, the game of life.

Yeah, yeah. Um, is it, is it ever confusing for you, like, to know when to leverage time or money? Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, it's not confusing. Like, I can probably do it better. For better or worse, most decisions I make in life are based off gut decision. Yeah. And that's how I've gone this whole time. Like, I can probably be more methodical what I'm doing. I more effective I'm doing. But I just started leaning into my gut more and more, and I've been doing okay with it and makes it easy decision-making.

Dude, it makes things a lot easier.

I'm not a planner. I will say, like, it drives everyone around me crazy. I'm not a planner. If I'm going on vacation, like, I'm planning like 2 days before.

I'm not planning at all. I'm just showing up.

I did that. I mean, my business partner with Juice, like, I drove him crazy for my birthday one year. Want to go to Iceland? I was planning at the airport. Like, I booked the flight with him at the airport, booking the hotels and all the, like, everything.

I like being surprised. A little surprise. A little serendipity, you know? It's nice. Usually works out. I went on this retreat with Tyler Dank from Beehive and then like I had 3 days extra.

The Costa Rica one? Yeah, yeah, I was supposed to go there.

Yeah, dude, I goofed. You should go next time. So I had 3 days extra at the end, just like fuck around. Like I read on the beach, I journaled, I worked on software till like 2 a.m. and then like I went, you know, got food. Like it's a little serendipity is nice, you know? Yeah, that's the point of entrepreneurship, right? Exactly.

Yeah. Too structured. I don't know. I can't do it. I go crazy.

Are you like chasing anything right now? You say nothing big.

Uh, I'm just tinkering with some like AI side projects right now.

Can you say anything?

Um, I will soon. One is, uh, in the religion space.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Is it God as a service?

Because yes. Yes. Yeah, I, uh, it's, it's a, it's a Bible app using AI.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah. And another one in AI sales calling.

Working on. Okay, interesting. What's your thoughts on confession as a service? Basically all it does is just let you confess and say you're a good person and you've been forgiven.

Just automatic reply, no matter what you say, you're good every time. Uh, I like it. ChatGPT rapper. So the Bible app that I made has, uh, a, like, a Bible chat within it, and I was going to add confessions. Are you—

it's a Bible, not Torah, right?

It is a Bible. Yeah, that's hilarious.

I love it. Hi, Tam. Yeah, yeah, much higher TAM, uh, 2% versus what, 80 at least?

Yeah, that's crazy. Uh, but well, you know, if this works out, I'll keep scaling. You know the Jews made the keffiyehs too?

Did not. Like, we sell most of those, which is hilarious.

Profit's profit.

Yeah, yeah, that's great.

But, uh, yeah, I mean, I just— it's— I'm learning a lot about Christianity with the, like, the Bible app. It's interesting. Okay, okay. So it's fun, like, playing with AI and, like, making these side quests.

That's interesting, dude. A lot of side quests. That's so fun. Bible apps. I feel like they've been popping off lately.

Yeah, because so I had this idea last year and I started building it end of last year, and then all of a sudden everyone's like blowing up how much money Bible apps are making. Like, yo, chill. Just like relax a little bit. Talk about this later after like this app blows up a little more. Yeah, but now it's getting a lot of noise, a lot of competition, but it's still growing. Are you mostly like paid ads or, uh, paid ads and SEO? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now working on the organic side and I have some like internal like, uh, strategies for getting people to share.

That's smart. Smart. Yeah. Um, that's so funny.

I'm just honestly like, I, uh, I was doing everything in like web forever and like e-commerce stuff. So messing around with apps is fun for me because like a whole new frontier of like figuring shit out. Uh, but it's, I'm having fun with it.

Are you getting super scientific about like the onboarding and all that stuff?

Yeah. And it's cool. Like I'm actually like, I don't have a co-founder on this. So like my co-founder is ChatGPT. So I literally like take screenshots of Figma and ask ChatGPT what they think of it and like gives me feedback. But yeah, I got like very OCD at the onboarding using things I called Superwall to like A/B test paywalls and stuff and just, you know, fine-tuning every little thing and getting user feedback, customer interviews. That's trying to do it right.

I love it. I love it. What's your thoughts? I mean, humor and marketing. Yeah. Memes make millions. You did it.

Yeah, I, I mean, memes are great. I am always a fan. It's just like the balance of, uh, is it actually— a lot of brands try and it comes out like mad corny. Yeah, yeah. So as long as you do it right, it's good. But if you do it wrong, I feel like it— look, it's, it's a bad look. It's like how you do Fellow Kids kind of vibe.

Yeah, yeah. I— what I found is like if a brand tries to jump in something that is just not their niche, they don't understand, or they hire some intern, yeah, tries to jump in some shit, or they feel like it doesn't understand, touch on a topic because it's viral, the crypto days, that stuff. Um, but like if it's a brand, if it's a finance brand, making finance memes, okay, all right. But yeah, don't go make memes about like the Olympics or some shit unless you relate it back, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

Or if you have like great content, but usually they don't. Like, I just— it just feels super cringe when I see a lot of brands trying memes. Yeah, but meme marketing is great. Like, I was at one point, I was gonna like launch a division of Juice strictly for advertising on meme pages just because it's just so effective.

There's so much money in there. You know the guys at Heave? I don't think so. Yeah, they're killing it. They run College Fashions, like the Instagram, 20 million, and they work with a ton of brands. And I've stayed, stayed friendly with them for a while. It's crazy. Such an arbitrage opportunity, like advertising on meme pages. Also weird arbitrage opportunity too. So I've been talking to Bonnie, Bonnie Blue's team. She's making $2 million a month.

Not surprised.

Not surprised. But what will surprise you is for an ad shoot for a brand, $20,000.

Because she gets— yeah, when you think about it, like CPM basis. Yeah.

But when you think about it, like there's such an arbitrage opportunity for like software brands to hire OnlyFans influencers who are trying to break in to like actually not just doing sex.

It's also a way to get attention. I mean, I don't know if you know, like what Ryan Holiday used to do back then with like American Apparel.

He did everything. Thing.

Yeah, but like, he couldn't— I could be butchering the story, but something along the lines of like, he didn't have the marketing budget for American Apparel, so he hired like porn stars to make the advertising. Like, obviously that's gonna like draw attention, get press, so it's free, you know, own media. Yeah, yeah, it's—

I mean, he's, he's the dirtiest. Do you— I really, uh, I don't believe the stoicism. I don't believe it. I know too much. I'm too cynical. I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's all He, he listened to Robert Greene, you know, he worked for him. He was like, find the philosophy, pick one. And, uh, it's a good way to stay in. Dude, should I start The Daily Hedonist? Oh, wouldn't be bad.

So that's a move. It would work with my brand.

Get on it. I might do it, dude. The Daily blank for everything.

It could work. Start your coffee, read The Daily Hedonist, you know, keep it going.

Yo, I didn't even think about that. I like that. I like that. That's smart. Hire porn star to be hedonistic.

Yeah, we can get that meme stack.

Meme stack. Full stack. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's been cool, man. And now we've got the show, which is popping off, selling ads like a motherfucker. Amazing. Yeah, I'm happy about that. So want to grow that shit like crazy. So it's going to be fun. That's awesome. What about what things do you do like outside of, outside of working? You read, music, like movies?

No, I read. I have spent time with my dog. That's what kind of dog you got? I have a Saint Bernard poodle mix.

Saint Bernard. So I got to, I got to ask here, do you fly private? No. How do you bring them down? Just on the plane. On, on the, on the top of the plane or the bottom?

No, no, no. Like, oh, shit. He'll go on the plane with me. He's a service dog. Oh, you got that service dog?

Yeah, that or JSX. What's JSX?

It's like semi-private, quote unquote. It's like small planes. Yeah, they don't care about dogs. How much is that to Florida? Um, depends. It can go from $500 to $1,000. That's it? Yeah, it's not bad.

Holy shit, really? I'm like, yeah. Damn.

Or if you go like, and if you go like LA to SF, it's like $100, $200 or something. It's cheap. Yeah.

That's crazy. Yeah. JSX? Yeah. I'll send you the link. Okay. All right, sick. Wish I was an affiliate. I've been, I've been, uh, trying to figure that out for a while.

I'll tell you how to do it.

Yeah, because I've got, I've got the big dog and I want to put him on the bottom of the plane.

I've been flying my dog since he was 3 months old.

Dogs die. That's it. Yeah, I got you, shit, man. That's crazy.

Yeah, I spent a lot of time with my dog. I do read probably too much as well.

What are you reading? Anything good?

Um, right now I just started a book, Bullshit Jobs. Um, nice, but there's a lot of them. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Uh, but I read a lot of like, uh, business books. Like, I should read more like fiction, but you ever read, uh, Who Is Michael Obis?

I'm reading that right now, you'd like it. So good. Isn't that the CAA?

Yeah, yeah, founder. CAA powerhouse.

Okay, all right, interesting. Dude, he's so good. It's his autobiography, and, um, you know, Jewish kid from LA, uh, grows up and, uh, just like grinds, like absolute grinder, but like very strategic about like his decision-making, like insane negotiator. Like, I'm assuming for a CAA, like, you gotta be— you've got— I mean, run an agency.

Autobiographies though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Love autobiographies. Uh, and I, I don't know if he has something else coming out soon, but he seems to be doing more public appearances, podcasts in general.

Um, if you haven't read Sam Walton, that's one of my favorites.

Oh, I should. He's the Walmart guy.

Yeah, he's a G. Um, I read Michael Dell's a few months ago.

That was really nice. Nice, nice.

Home Depot. I read like a lot of biographies, but have—

Rex, I spent 3 months working at Home Depot. That was a weird time. Yeah, not fun.

Going to go back?

No, no. Every time I go back, I'm very happy to go back though. It's like I, I worked as a waiter at Bonefish for like 2 weeks and got fired because like I was like, they, you know how they wear those like stupid white uniforms? I forgot to clean it and like got fired. But now, like the first time I got like a real, you know, moneymaking thing, I was like, I went back and just ate some fish. Oh yeah, just vibing.

Best feeling. I had my parents, like, again, they did— like, parents did not believe in, like, you can make money online. But when I was in high school, I was making money as, like, consulting and, like, websites. Um, one of my first jobs was a waiter, and I was just terrible at it.

I'm so bad at it. It's really weird. Like, I'm— I could never be a waiter. Like, I sucked at that stuff. Like, manual labor. Like, I just— oh yeah, I wasn't good at that. My brain is, like, too busy working on other stuff.

I remember I was a busboy first, for me, trans busboy, for being a waiter. And really mean, like, pick up a tray to bring over, and I literally fell backwards with an entire tray my first day. Like, This ain't gonna work out for me.

Yeah, yeah, it's not, not meant to be. I, um, I know my brain was always like thinking of ideas and shit. Same. It's not, not exactly great to be waitering during that.

Can't write down ideas or execute.

No, no, you can't. Um, so 9 years old, start, start grinding on shit. By 19, sell or start making GIF, and, um, that's— it's insane.

I did a lot of, a lot of random things. Like, while I was at, um, that company, the HVAC company I mentioned, like, I started like building side projects. Like, I made the first— like, Apple and the iPhone 7 removed the headphone jack, so I made like the first iPhone 7 case with headphone jack built in when Apple removed it. Like, raised like a million from Indiegogo to build it.

That's so funny.

I think I had a whole fight with Apple because they wouldn't let me make it. I made a— a friend of mine made a viral Pokémon Go dating app. We had 300,000 active users on it called PokéMatch. Much like random things. Um, and then BuzzFeed hit me up to run their marketing for acquisition for e-com. So I did that for a minute as well.

What was that like working at BuzzFeed? Um, it was actually really cool.

Uh, I, uh, I didn't really know much of BuzzFeed like outside of like, you know, like listicles, quote unquote, even though they didn't like being called that.

Yeah, that's what they were. Yeah, exactly.

Let's be honest here. Of course. Uh, but it was a really cool company, had a lot of freedom, let us, you know, mess around with whatever we want to build. So we had like our own division within BuzzFeed, it was called Product Labs. So we and made like the top candle selling, top on like selling candle online called Homesick, which is like a candle for every state, which is a lot of fun because like I would just take, uh, a candle, a new, like a New Jersey candle, and I'd target people in New York and say like, what do you think this smells like? And target like Jersey people to come buy it so that New Yorkers and Jersey would keep like bickering, and then we'd be making a ton of money.

Puzzle, it's just a puzzle. Killed it.

Um, again, we had turned like Hasty into the number one cookbook in the world that year. A lot of fun things. And then I left to start my agency.

Yeah, dude. And agency, any fun brands, anything?

Yeah. I mean, we're a lot of brands like over the years. I mean, we helped everything from— I don't know if you ever seen that viral, like, beanbag, like, MoonPods. No, we did everything for them. It was like a— you probably see them if you Google them. It's like a beanbag that stands up when you lay in it. We— how big is the agency? We have about 30-something people on the marketing team and 40 on the development team.

Wow. That's wild.

Yeah, it's been fun. Are they—

you have an office here?

We, we used to have one in Tribeca, and then like during COVID like, we don't need an office and no one's gonna come in soon. And then we distributed, um, so now we have people across the country. So instead of everyone in New York, now we have people in like Florida, Texas, Nevada, California.

How are you, uh, getting your team to like use AI as much as possible?

Um, so a few different things. Like, we— something that sets us apart from other agencies, we work with a shit ton of different data providers so we can actually target much better than any other folks. So we have like 72 different data providers we plug into our agency so we can like target folks that have like people that buy CBD products, people that shop at XYZ stores. So we do like use that for AI to find the best matching audiences. Obviously creative and like copy, we start with AI and then like we refine it from there. Yeah. But yeah, we try to utilize as much as possible. On the development side, it's, you know, some coding is a little easier.

Yeah, a little vibe coding or whatever. Dude, vibe marketing is still bullshit. There's not It's not there yet. It's not there. I thought of it months ago to like build an app for it and I was like, it's just going to turn out shit. Like I—

AI creators, like it's like the, like the lip syncing kills me. I'm like, this looks so off.

There's, there's one that I think is smart. I hate the guy who founded it because he, he signed up for my software and then just like literally just started taking shit. But smart, no talking. It's just music behind. That's smarter. Smart. Smart as fuck. Um, because the second you add the voice, it turns to shit. Uh, like I tried, you know, making one. It was like, Memelord Technologies. I'm like, dumb motherfucker. And so, um, I think that's why, you know, personally I'm so bullish on just like storytelling, content, movies, shows, like, uh, is the fact that— and specifically unhinged shit is, hey, I won't do that. And yet I don't think AI will ever be as funny as the funniest movies. Um, purposely.

I have them debate with my brother all the time because my brother's a comedian. He was a former comedian, he's a comedy writer. And he's like, the saving grace of AI is like, it's never going to be funny. I'm like, it could learn at some point.

It will never be as funny, I think. And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact personally that like LLMs predict the next word. And comedy is unpredictable. Yeah, it's more out of pocket. So maybe if you reverse the LLM to do the opposite, but then you— it's illogical. Yeah, right. So much of comedy is like metaphors, right? So I feel like that's been— I mean, that's— I bet my entire career on that. Like, when ChatGPT came out, doubled down on unhinged memes and everything.

And, and, uh, especially since they're not gonna let people touch that at this point, they're gonna be restricted. Yeah, maybe Grok, who knows.

But Grok is still like It's funny. Yeah, but I haven't tried it. The memes are terrible. That kind of thing. Yeah, all that stuff sucks.

But yeah, like with copywriting, like, like creative writing in general, like we have, we have a bunch of different software we try out for copywriting for our ads and it's just not as good as a human, but we'll take it as, you know, a foundation to like kernel, to like root off of, like to springboard ideas. But in itself, no.

So your brother writes comedy? Yeah. TV and movies? TV. Yeah. Anything cool?

Uh, he sold the show to BET last year, so it's working on that now. Uh, but he was a stand-up comedian in New York for years.

That's sick.

That's dope.

He looks like my twin, but a lot funnier than me. Nice, nice. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm very bullish on just, just com— in, in general for multiple reasons. The AI reason and also just like the free speech reason. Yeah. Of like the Elon X kind of vibe of it is like we just went through 5, 10 years of weird nothing's allowed to be made anymore. Yeah. And now, like, I think we're going to see a lot of hopefully funny movies coming back. Hopefully. I'm ready for it. I want to make them, you know, that's, that's the goal there. And also similar on that, a weird arbitrage opportunity is it used to be like, especially you think like 2009, 2010, right? Very normal for guys to talk about sex online, right? Think about Tucker Max, right? Ryan's friend, right? Very normal. Now, very normal for women to talk about sex online. Very abnormal for men. So I've been like arbitraging that hard because like, why not? Because it should be normal. Like, it's a normal part of fucking life.

But like, like guys kind of got a little worried, like after MeToo and everything.

They want to— Exactly. And so there's like I think a huge arbitrage opportunity right now, like all my, you know, viral comedy videos, subway videos, Street Interview. Even I had the poster, do a fuck off stuff like just that kind of stuff. Like there's, there's a weird arbitrage, especially with marketing in general. I've been thinking about that a lot. It's like, dude, it's crazy. Like every girl has like a tweet about their vibrators and sex toys and a guy says one thing and terrified. Oh yeah, it's weird. No, it's— you find that strange, right?

Now that, now that you're seeing that, like, I didn't think about that, but yeah, you're actually right there.

Yeah, you think about like early 2010s, like the humor coming out on the internet, it was, it was very Tucker Max-y. Maybe he's— that took it a little too far, maybe is what happened.

I know, like even like all the comedians of that time were talking about that more back then. I feel like they were less now. Like, yeah, yeah, that's fair.

It's, it's a lot, it's a lot of out politics for better or worse.

Yeah, yeah, maybe it's coming back. Maybe everyone's going to talk freely now.

Yeah, yeah, I think, uh, moves and swings, uh, the Tuckers of the world. I think also it's like a difference between like talking like raunchy sex stories and talking just like including it in marketing, like sexvertising, right?

Before it was like more like shock value, and now it's not as much shock value as much like now it's just regular speech.

Instagram, the OnlyFans It's all just funnels. It's kind of weird. I tweeted that earlier. I was like, if you want to learn funnels, don't study Hermosi or Russell Brunson, just study Lily Phillips. Like, they are so much better at funnels than any of us.

Just go to the meme pages and see all the OnlyFans advertising there. It's crazy.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, the meme pages. I mean, that's, that's arbitrage opportunity itself. Like some of the meme pages I've talked to or some of the companies, startups I work with, you know, six-figure or higher B2B contracts from just like a meme page, like everybody's following it.

I mean, 100%. And some of these meme pages started managing, like, OnlyFans girls, 'cause it makes sense, 'cause it's free traffic.

Yeah. I didn't even know about that. Dude, every day I find out weird secrets of the internet. You, uh, you know much about WAP? The song? No, no, no. We were talking about it, but W-H-O-P. You know that stuff? Clipping in general? Like, that kind of stuff? Clipping? Oh, geez. Just weird. So WAP is, um, uh, they started as like a creator kind of thing where creators could sell, but now they have something called content rewards. And so say I put in 2 grand, right? So I did this for Silly Valley because, you know, we worked with them on the first show. Yeah. And I put in 4 grand and kids from all over the world sign up, they get my content, and then I pay them per view and it tracks all of it.

Interesting.

And so I choose how many views. So, so I, you know, right now it's like $0.69 per 1K views and I could choose the max and it does all the tracking for me. And so I have kids like literally like for Silly Valley, just like like, you know, our YouTube video, we got 8,000, 10,000 views, but we've got millions across, you know, TikTok, Instagram, and like the podcast and shit. I like that. To me is insane. Like the systematic clipping is like, like their software, like, sorry, Steven, but it sucks. And he, they know that, like the UI/UX blows. Yeah. But like the functionality is good. Insane. Like, yeah, check that out. Yeah, you should, you should check.

I think you would send me that.

You would fucking go dirty with it. Yeah, it's, it's insane. And like like I am totally experimenting on it because I'm not like, I don't know my exact like CPM equals blank. Yeah. So I'm kind of just like, ah, you guys paid me this in sponsors, here's some money. Yeah, let's see what happens. Um, but yeah, it's fascinating. Like I have friends who are doing like, they, they have software pages who are doing it. A lot of rappers and like comedians, like Drewski's doing it. Uh, you know, Stake, the betting thing? Of course. Yeah, yeah, they, they spend a million a month on clippers. That's why you see it everywhere.

That makes more sense. They just—

you, and you literally put in there, must include thumbnail, or must, must tag, must include that.

Yeah, I saw another one. They see other betting company was advertising a lot. Yeah, dude, they're all—

it's all clipping. It's crazy. It makes sense. It's insane. I— dude, it's everywhere. It's wild.

I mean, it's like, you know, TikTok and these platforms are kind of a volume game at this point, or YouTube. Just like, if you just get enough out there, only one needs to hit. I, I have a chat with 10,000 kids.

Yeah. Like, I, you know, I have 5 full-time employees or 7 or whatever fluctuates. Yeah. And then 10,000 kids who I'm just paying, you know, whatever. It's insane. Crazy, crazy thing about the internet.

I know.

It's just getting started. What's weird though is there's definitely like people will— they'll try to extort in different ways, but like they have a good flagging system, which is good. Yeah. You know, people try to bot it, all that bullshit. Of course.

Yeah. General views and stuff and all that.

Have your, have your assistant who already hates you manage it. Perfect.

Because it is, he needs more on his plate.

Yeah, dude, I'm, I was like, my hand was shaking at one point because it's like 4,000 kids like messaging you like, where's the money? Where's the money? It's in their own platform and their platform is messy. Um, I've heard from other people, they, uh, move the, move the best ones, move the best clippers. So I've started building relationships, move them to Discord and then use Wapp as a backend for the tracking of the views, which I think is really smart.

Smart. It's interesting, like a big funnel, get them in and like the best people put them aside.

Yeah, so what's nice too, WAP, you get all their emails too. Um, I'm not like exporting everything because deliverability, but I think to alert them of my new content, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's really smart.

That's very smart. I'll check that out.

Yeah, I'm bullish on it. Uh, I was— got me sold. Yeah, yeah, I, I don't know, dude. I, I thought clipping, like, I thought the idea of it was like stupid at first, and I was like, oh shit, like if you have—

that's the volume—

hours and hours of content. Like, it's been a weird feeling. Like, I open up my phone and, um, I'll see conversations that I don't remember having because I'm here like 2, 3 times a week. Yeah. And then we're filming the show once a week, and then there's like other— it's just—

so you see them like on TikTok or YouTube or whatever?

Yeah, it's just a strange feeling.

Excited to next week or a month or something like that just see my face randomly as a cowboy.

Like, somebody made art of Jack, my guy. Like, then, you know, they turned him into art. What the fuck is going on right now? Like, he's just an idiot, you know, that we're working together. I love it. No, it's been cool. Um, what's your thoughts? So yesterday I had Em Herrera sitting here, if you know her. She worked with Night Ventures. Um, idea of creators investing, uh, in general. Do you think— I, I'm not personally a fan of slow Ventures. Uh, maybe I'll believe this up, but probably not. But like, I don't think investing in creators and taking a percentage of their capital forever is like—

I don't like that. It feels like endangered servitude.

Yes. Yes. And like, isn't the point of being a creator to have freedom? You think? But I think creators investing in shit is cool. I love it.

Yeah, I mean, I like, uh, creators investing in things is interesting because they have like, you know, they're, they're effectively distribution channels. They can get their brand where they— as long as they're talking about, they can get it out there. I, uh, I feel like for creators it's more interesting for them to make their own product or make their own, do something on their own. Yeah. I always say that, you know, angel investing, I always say is like, it's like a, there's a quote that I butchered that turned my own, which is basically that the lotto is a tax on poor people and angel investing is a tax on rich people. So I don't like, I don't, it's tough to invest cuz you don't know what's a good investment and you know, you have to understand most are gonna fail. Most are going to be stagnant and not going to make money. You usually only make money if there's an exit. So it's usually not the best way to invest. Like, they should— a portion should be invested, but not all their money.

That's so funny.

But like, if you have this distribution channel and you have a brand, and if you can make a product or service, something around your brands, what's better than that? Like, then you have recurring revenue, money coming in, versus I'll throw a check in there, cross my fingers I get a payment one day. Yeah, but distribution is key.

How are you and your partner thinking about investing right now in the age of software?

It feels weird time. It does. Um, I mean, again, like, if there's— it's an unfair distribution if it's something early, it's like really smart founder.

I usually invest early personally, whether it's my fund or personally. Pre-seed?

Totally just early. Pre-seed, yeah. Pre-product a lot of time and just invest in the founder. Like, if I find someone that I think that, you know, they're a killer and they like they're down to, you know, pivot and take in feedback, great. Because most ideas, when you invest that early, they pivot. They're not gonna— like, whatever I invest in now is not going to be the end-all be-all of what happens to this company. And the best companies I invested in generally did pivot. Um, so that's what I look at, like, early stage for investing. And if I try not to invest anything I don't understand, I try not to invest in anything that I don't think I can be helpful with.

Yeah.

And like, anyway, it's even— it's like, as far as, you know, go-to-market strategy and marketing side, or introductions I can make. But if I can't do shit, I don't usually invest. I try to just bow out. That's facts.

I made a rule for myself, just exactly never invest in something I don't understand. It's like, personally, just never had the science brain. My mom, she works in pharma, brilliant, but like skipped me.

Yeah, dude, I get like healthcare investment all the time and my friends like, this is a great investment.

Like, I don't know what it means. The nuclear stuff, like, oh, it sounds cool, sounds dope, man. Like like, are there memes? Are you guys using meme marketing?

You know, where's the comedy part? Where the fun is?

That's why I like investing in kind of like— or where I'm— what I'm thinking about a lot and what we've talked about offline is, um, investing in just companies of all sorts that use humor-based marketing because of the unhinged— because you can be like a value add to them.

Like, yeah, exactly. I don't know, I feel weird being on a cap table where I can't do shit. I'm just like, say, pointless. Yeah, I'm just like, you take someone else's money.

Yeah, I can't grow. You invested in Haven. They're good. Yeah, they're fucking grinders. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Michael and Cyrus are dirty.

Cyrus, I had one conversation with him. I'm like, I like this guy.

I mean, yeah, he's scary.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I made a bunch of introductions for him, so that's all I was trying to be value-add, help him on like user experience on the site.

Yeah. Cyrus wanted to hire me at one point. I was like, no, no, make memes or make memes, run their, run their stuff, like help out. I was just like, no, this is not going to be a fun experience for me. Too intense. Yeah, he's like, yeah, I didn't text back or something. Like the next day he calls me at 8 a.m. I just, I said like, this is not ever happening. Like, I, I like you. Yeah, you seem great. We had a good conversation at a friend's house, but no, I don't need the money that bad. No, I like—

there is a portfolio company I invested in that I was going to work with them. I was going to check. They want me to be their CMO. I was debating jumping over there and literally started— they called me like at night, which I'm okay with. Someone calls me and I don't care. And they ask a bunch of things and they call, follow up with me the next morning at like 8 a.m., 7:30 a.m. I'm like, I'm not doing this. Like, this is—

it's very good. Like, like, I made the decision immediately. Yeah. And then referred him to a friend and got the referral fee.

That's, that's even better. It worked out.

I didn't have to do it. Even better. Yeah. Win-win. Yeah. Win-win for me.

Friend got a job. You got some money.

Well, everyone's happy. He did. And I told— I warned him. Yeah. So he definitely hated it. He was prepared. He hated it. All right. They're fucking dictators. Yeah, whatever. I like Michael though. Yeah, Cyrus is scary. Michael's funny. I'm an Iron Boy. Um, but yeah, I'm definitely— I feel like it's a weird time right now investing, building software. Um, you yourself, you're fucking bootstrapping a Bible app as a Jew on the side. Yeah, you know, with AI as your co-founder. Like, there are so many people like that. There's, you know, I'm solo making Memelord, no idea how to code, just fucking around having fun.

That's the exciting part about right now. It's like anyone, anyone with an idea can build something cool. Cool. And that's like, oh, that's such a cool part about being on the internet right now is that if you have an idea, like the ideas guys, quote unquote, finally it's their time to shine. It really is. So like I've been called an ideas guy my whole life and I was like, all right, no, fuck it. Now I can be an ideas guy and actually build shit.

Yeah, same here, man. Like it's such a good feeling. It feels like I can finally all make all my weird childhood dreams come true in any sort of way. Uh, you know, stuff like WAP makes that possible too. They're not even sponsoring this. I'm just saying like the idea of like having 10,000 employees. Yeah, that can make a lot of—

well, it's like, like, it's not only the AI side, it's, you know, it's offshore talent. It's all these different things that you can make that makes it more affordable, more approachable. And the resources all online, whether it's on YouTube or TikTok. Now's the time where you can build anything you want, and that's pretty exciting.

Yeah, I think something that people have missed in the discussion around Idea Guys is you can't just like idea guys. Yes, it's our time. Yeah, but it's also idea and execution guys. Yes. Because there are so many— feel bad. Like, sure, you know, people like this who are brilliant idea guys, but they're, they're, they're just, just idea. Yeah, there's no execution. And I, I love them and like, come on. But like, you got to work hard still. Like, you still have a time.

It's these because when I've seen it personally, it's people that kind of talk themselves out of it. Like, I have this idea, but it might not work because of X, Y, Z. Okay, but you don't know until you try. Yeah. So I'm always like, I'm a hopeless optimist throughout my life. I'm like, I'll just, you know, just try shit and see what happens. And I've tried plenty of like ideas that just did not work that I personally like just wanted to exist. Like a dumb idea I had, like I built this app like probably 2016 that I thought it was funny. Like people are like, are ashamed of taking selfies sometimes in the mirror. People get shamed for that. It's like, what if there, my app like replaced the phone and the selfie with like a Pop-Tart or like a something or something random. So I put this app that no one cared. Like, but I put it out there because I wanted to exist.

But it's still out there because I'm about to download that shit, dude.

That's like a swap.

Did you see my fish pic generator that I made? I think so. Yeah, it increases the size of your fish. Yes. Yes, the fish. Yeah, it's like, dude, you're out fishing, you got to show the boys a better fish pic, and there's a switch to shark button. Just like stupid shit like that. Like, I made that in 20 minutes.

But yeah, but you throw shit out there, see what sticks, and it's fun to make. Like, I'm sure you had fun in the process building.

I had a great time and the marketing of it and just being able to talk about it. It's a fun story, but yeah, it's been really fun. Like the JD Vance meme generator, I made a face swapper, thousands of people used it and, you know, I got, you know, a ton of signups from it too. It was like just took me 20 minutes because I already had the APIs. Yeah, fuck it.

That's why I have to just again throw shit against the wall, see what sticks and have fun with it. Like, now's the time to do it. So it's a life because there's all these people that, you know, they pitch me these ideas. I have friends of mine that like want to launch a product or want to launch something. But they talk themselves out of it or they say reasons it won't work or whatever. But what about the reasons it could work? Yeah, that's what I always say. I'm like, what if it does? And also, what if it fails? Who cares? Like, you think, yeah, it's gonna follow you? Or like, I don't know, I've never been afraid of failure, so I think maybe that helped too.

Yeah, yeah, starting young helps.

Yeah, because I failed so many times where it's like I realized like, oh, this doesn't really matter, I can just do the next one.

Everybody— it's weird, man. Like, everybody used to say the internet's forever it's actually not. Yeah, like there's a lot of shit that I've just deleted. Yeah, you could delete tweets and they're just gone. Yeah, like, or you could just delete projects. And dude, the Internet Archive, for God's sake, went down the other day. You know, like, shit's not that actually forever.

I don't know, like, I, I even forget all the other shit that I made that didn't work. Like, I made a, like, a filter that blocks stuff so like it doesn't ruin spoilers on Twitter, like, years ago, like I called it like, uh, don't ruin that. It don't ruin it. Yeah. And then someone did the same exact thing as me and they called it like Kardashian Blocker and blocked the Kardashians. I'm like, oh, that was smart.

And they went viral. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, dude. Yeah, I do love it. I do love that you could just do things attitude. It's a good— it's a better way to live. It's got it.

Like, stay positive, build shit, have fun with it.

Yeah, actually, uh, Michael Ovitz, speaking of him, he was talking about like, who does he invest in? It's like people with a motor. It's just like constantly worrying or worrying, W-H-R, you know, just always going. Yeah, it's a way to be. I totally agree. A lot more fun. Um, yeah, people don't care about the failures as much either. The real people don't. People make fun of you, but like, no one's gonna make fun of you, like, are haters anyway.

Yeah, fuck, they're gonna hate on you. And Reddit, all of Reddit.

Fuck Reddit.

Reddit, yeah, it's a brutal community. So mean. Yeah, I've been on Reddit since like 2008. I love it personally, but yeah, definitely I would never advertise there. Well, sorry if for any Reddit advertisers listening, but don't make money there. But it's a, it's a great platform. Just, and the comments are always amazing.

Okay, that's fair. I do have a theory that the only place meaner than Reddit is Hacker News because it's higher IQ. Yes. And but still just as low agency and anger.

I honestly like I respect Hacker News. The pretentiousness of it I can never do. Exactly. I can't listen. I can't read this.

It's all people who like got into YC and their startup failed. And like they just never— like now they're working at Dropbox or some shit.

Yes, they're just little haters.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, keyboard warriors. Yeah, but cool. That's about it. That was dope. Thank you, man.