#80: Molly O'Shea — The Venture Artist

Let's blow up the internet. From the basement to the higher net. Scrolling, tapping, man, we ain't done yet. Let's blow up the internet.

You met Joe Rogan. How'd that go down?

It was actually a beautiful experience. It was a lot more chill than it might look. It was like me behind a line of people asking to take pictures.

Where was this?

So this was at the inauguration. I was at a couple of the different balls. We went with a group of people, and this was at specifically the Starlight Ball, and it was full of like everyone was there, like really, really incredible people. Kind of like a pinch-me moment. I mean, I live in LA, so I'm used to that, but it was wild, the concentration. In fancy clothes. Everyone is there. And by the way, like, you're tired, you're freezing cold. The glamour, the novelty kind of wore off a little bit, but you're like, this is actually insane. Wow.

That must be a magical moment. That's very cool. Were you like, was there a feeling like, we're so back? Was that going on? Like, did you have any idea what was coming? I don't know.

Um, one, I'm like first upset that I didn't go as viral as that one girl.

I didn't see anybody else, I just saw you. You were looking all glamorous and with, with Mr. Joe.

Yeah, Mr. Joe.

Yeah, I like Mr. Joe.

Um, no, there was definitely a sense of like, holy crap, like something's changing, like something's about to change and things are gonna get real. Um, Part of it felt like a tech conference. I mean, I've, I've been working in VC for like almost 7 years now. And so I'm used to like lots of these events where GPs come in and different fund managers and different founders and that kind of thing. But having the, like the pure concentration of literally everyone that he's going to be working with and high profile names, um, it was, it was really surreal. It was— I, I was like, I'm the most irrelevant person here.

But it looks fly as hell with Mr., Mr. Joe. Um, speaking of Mr. Joe, Mr. Joe Rogan, why does every VC have a podcast? Let's break down this question. A lot of people ask this on Twitter, and, uh, they, they just don't understand. They think that like VCs just are like self-obsessed and love to yap, but it's like A lot bigger than that. So do you want the real answer, or like, which is we are just self-obsessed and love to— yeah, um, that's the real answer, guys. Plot twist. So what's the real answer? Let's break it down.

Kind of, but not really. I mean, like, every fund has their own, like, marketing strategy, and it's really important for trying to maintain, um, access to deals and access to founders and continuing to build out relevancy. Relevancy is like the number one thing for funds. Like you can ride on the coattails of very large AUM, you could ride on the coattails of like your previous successes. Um, but I think marketing strategy and brand differentiation has gotten really serious over the last couple years. And more specifically, like it's really hard to compete with like a Founders Fund or an 816, A16Z on that front because they're just machines. Like they've nailed it. I don't know who, who's the CMO of Founders Fund?

I don't know, Mike Salami, I think.

Anyways, Mike, Mike Solana, like they've cracked the code. Like they've killed it. Like they did really well.

They killed it. Founders Fund is a machine. They're a marketing machine. They've got, you know, everything from John's podcast and his work to Mike's to, you know, even Jesse, what's his name? Jesse Michaels. Like, you know, he works with Teal. Like they absolutely killed it. And I think, you know, that was something that super surprised me about VC, which is like, it's not like VCs have to be competitive. Yeah, I thought that they're, you know, coming into VC, it was like the founders are all competing for the VCs' attention. But when there's a hot startup and there's a hot founder, like founders kind of have their pick, right? And it's weird. It's like, oh, don't they just want the money and that's it? It's like, no, you want somebody who shares your vision, shares your beliefs. You want somebody who can quote unquote add value, right? Like the whole meme of it. But when you are picking a VC for a lot of these founders out there, like, you know, somebody with a giant audience, giant distribution, somebody who shares that vision, who you know is gonna talk about you and share your company, like that's huge, right? And so that is, yeah, I think that's a big reason why every VC has a podcast. Um, and I think, and the—

maybe tapping, yes. Um, it like the brand differentiation for the funds is one thing. And then you also, to your point a little bit, is like you have to, somehow provide extra value to the founders. And maybe that's by— maybe that's by having them on your show. But I don't— that's like less than I'd probably— 1% of the reason, because most of these funds do have really, really good PR and comms teams that help those companies if they want, if they're more consumer-focused or if they like are riding some sort of train to get them that next leg of funding to go the comms and PR route and get really good announcements out, get a good brand halo effect. Like build the vision and like the strategy around that. Um, but on the, the actual like podcast side, it, it's kind of one, yes, it is super fun and it's cool. And like there's a weird mix of VC is just such a small niche world. Um, and VCs are like, they have to kind of be a little famous in one way or another, even if it's, you know, just with like nerds, but you have to attract and you have to stay relevant, and like there's all these different creative ways to do it. I know at least for like me and Sorcery, like I started the newsletter like 4 years ago, over 4 years ago, and it was just like a little hobby and I liked it. And then I realized like how much value was providing for my friends. I started sharing it, they started sharing it, started growing more, and people— I've built like a community around it. Like they'll reach out to me, they'll send me companies, they'll do different things. And then next thing I know, like Eric Thornberg, really great guy. Turpentine is an amazing media company. He was building out his suite of podcasts and he asked me to do it. I was like, actually, yeah, I do want to do that. I've been working on go-to-market strategy with companies in our portfolios and video is very clearly the next iteration of how you gain people's attention and what's like kind of like important on the internet. And so I was like, yeah, like that's the next form of media I want to try. Do I have time for that? I'm not sure. But for me, I was also obviously like we talked about this. I'm a huge nerd. I'm a huge dork.

And Molly is a dork. Don't, don't, don't be worried. She's a dork.

She's very dorky. Yeah. But like for me, I was thinking, oh my God, these are going to be like expert calls that I can share with.

I know. Exactly. So that's one of the great things about having a podcast is you could just bring smart people on.

Yeah.

And because you're giving them like free content, you're giving them distribution. Like, people are just so much more likely to say yes than if you go send them an email and say, can I pick your brain? Can I have a virtual coffee? Like, that's some dork stuff. Coming on a podcast, having a fun conversation, they get to share their content, they're happy, right? And, you know, similar to you, how we've been able to get big guests on, on both of our podcasts. Same with, you know, my newsletter has led to all sorts of weird opportunities. I just started writing it for fun, sharing my thoughts. has led to, you know, deal flow, right? Has led to, uh, all sorts of advertisers and businesses that I've been able to start. So, um, you know, Jack Butcher has a great line, which is like, build distribution, then you can build whatever you want. Um, for us, that's investing, startups, whatever we might, might want to build. Uh, always, always fun to do.

It's always fun. It's really fun. And it's, it's fun to like build these like asymmetric— asymmetric, is that— I don't— yeah, yeah, I think like asymmetric relationships with people that, um, it would not— like you wouldn't normally be able to just do that with. Like, you— it's really hard to just ask anybody for coffee, but if you want to have like a meaningful conversation and share it and give distribution and, you know, highlight them— like, I just love having people on and like profiling them and like showing all— like, I'm just I'm like a little soft at heart and I'm like, it's so like, I'm so proud of like people. And I just, I think it's really great to like share how much progress they've made and how crazy like the different stories are that they've gotten to that point in their career. And, um, like from the technical standpoint and then also on like the entrepreneurial standpoint, like it's really interesting to hear all those stories.

Yeah. I think. Really like what I'm finding the key to podcasting as well is like curiosity, right? And that's why, you know, Joe Rogan, Mr. Joe, he's such a good podcaster is because he's just so curious about things, right? He wants to learn about people. And being curious and passionate is just like a great way to have a conversation. Like, you know, I could talk to anybody, you know, I like I'm having you on. We talk VC stuff. I've had friends on. I'm having one of my best friends from high school on in a couple of weeks who's a comedian in Brooklyn. And I'm just so proud of him because he's like, You know, we've been best friends or good friends since we were 16, right? And I knew he was gonna be a famous comedian. Now we're 27, he's blowing up, right? He's hosting shows in Brooklyn, working with famous people. It's like, I'm just proud and I wanna talk to you and let's catch up, right? You know, I tweeted this a while back, but like podcasting is like, it's just an excuse to have a conversation with the homies. Like, you know, like it's hard to have deep convos these days. Everybody's busy grinding. But if you get to record it, have some fun, like I'm gonna have another founder on who, you know, one I invested in, I haven't seen in a few months. And then another who's like, one of my, you know, good friends from early days, it's like, let's just catch up and have a good conversation too.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, if you're listening to this, you don't need to go become the next Mr. Joe Rogan, right? I've, I've talked about this before. You could just like start a podcast to have conversations with smart people, you know?

Yeah. There's also a point to which you, you mentioned, it's like kind of crazy how some of the ideas and thoughts that you have and podcasts is like, you don't really talk about with your friends, and you go like a little bit of a layer deeper and stuff, and that brings like an audience, and people are like, oh wow, like, that's really interesting, like, I want to learn more. And, and so it opens up another layer of like thought-provoking information, and people are so addicted to podcasts. Like, I was telling Mr. Matt over there about this.

Mr. Matt?

Oh yeah, we call him Mr. Matt. Um, I was telling Mr. Matt about this the other day, but my dad was like in a meeting and and he was talking about with someone about like the inauguration and he was like, oh, my daughter went. And they're like, that's crazy. Like, how did she go? Like, what's, what's going on there? And he was like, oh, you know, she's just a young hustler. Like, she's a VC, she has a podcast and stuff. And the guy was like, wait, what's her name? And, and they're like, and my dad was like, her name is Molly O'Shea. And he was like, no way. And my mom, by the way, my mom's in the other room and she listens in on every conversation, every conversation he has on the phone. And they have really thick Irish accents. I can't do it. I wish I had an Irish accent, but they had really thick Irish accents. And it turns out to be, um, Conor McGregor's media, like, manager team. And one of them listens to Sorcery.

That's amazing.

So shout out to Doug if you're listening.

I mean, we were talking about this earlier, uh, you know, Chainsmokers were— I was DMing with them earlier and they said they're big fans of my memes and content. I was like, What is going on right now? Yeah, from putting weird stuff out on the internet, you know, you never know what happens.

Speaking of my dad, he's literally calling me right now.

Nice, nice. Papa O'Shea.

He can hear me.

I love it.

So I think— no, but I want to say one thing about that. I get hung up about this because I'm very competitive and I'm sure you're competitive too. Like you're building a really good business.

Like, I appreciate it.

People might not know that, but you're putting down numbers like you're doing really well. Part of the numbers of doing podcasts and stuff, like, gets to me, and I want to make those numbers go up, so please subscribe. But, um, you forget because you're constantly thinking about the numbers that those are people listening to you, and you don't know who they are.

Yeah.

It could be anyone. It could be like, you know, and it's always surprising too.

Like, something that I found with creating content online is the people that you expect to support you the most. A lot of times, like your family, your friends, maybe siblings, they actually don't support you. And it's strangers on the internet that you meet that become your biggest customers and fans and, um, and supporters. And, you know, maybe they hire you or introduce you to people that change your lives, right? Like, it's really a very, very sad but bittersweet thing creating things on the internet that you find that, like, people who are just strangers can be more supportive of you than your like high school friends. And I don't know if you've experienced this, but I certainly have. And it was like a very eye-opening moment where it was like, oh shit, like I have so many friends on the internet.

Like I've made so many friends on X and like LinkedIn and whatever over the last—

we met was like X. Yeah, years ago. And yeah, it's super eye-opening where it's like— and I think a lot of it, a couple of things. One is like people who grew up with you are like, they can't be doing this. Like, you know what?

Yeah, they like put you down all of a sudden.

They think, oh, you have a podcast. That's like cringe. Oh no, you could just do things. Cringe is the new cool.

Yeah.

And, and then the second thing is like media is so fractionalized that you might have somebody who lives in a completely different part of the world who has the same information diet as you, and that's actually a better predictor of your relationships and friendships than whether you grew up with them. So for example, like some of my team, right? My, my employees, my meme lords, you know, they're overseas, right? You know, India, Taiwan. But they understand Silicon Valley tech memes better than most of the people in this city. Right. Better than most people in America because of the internet. Right.

Yeah.

And, you know, we get along better than me and kids I grew up with in my neighborhood in high school. Yeah. Because we have the same information diet. Right.

Right.

And I think a lot of it comes down to that. I want to— I want to switch topics a little bit real quick. So I found out this earlier while we were getting smoothies. Molly studied art. So she's a VC dork. She's got that artsy side. I want to, you know, a lot of, a lot of my readers, listeners in general, they're like artsy creatives who are trying to figure out how to make money on the internet. Do you have any advice for, you know, going from art to business? I mean, you know, obviously I could talk a lot about that, but I'm just curious, like, how'd you make that switch figuring out venture capital from a studio art degree?

Yes, this is something that I've hidden for many years because it doesn't make for a good way in the door, especially for untraditional. Well, John Coogan, for that, sure, it'd be cool now, but like back in the day when there were no women in VC and like, like it was a much smaller industry, but all of a sudden there's like 5 billion jobs and people doing it and it's gonna, it's gonna go back down. Um, but So I come from a long line of artists.

Okay.

It's a whole lineage within my family. My great-grandfather was an artist and developed homes, and then my mother was a creative director and she designs homes now. It's like a mix between like art design and architecture. It's really fun. Like, I thought I was going to become an architect too. I have too many interests, but I, growing up, like, I was always making things and doing projects and like selling things. I was obsessed with money and I would hide it. Like, we, we would— like, I'm from Connecticut, so my mom would renovate old houses, like colonial houses, and in those houses there's really like weird unique beams and like exposed things that you wouldn't you wouldn't normally have in like a cookie-cutter house. And so I would always— I would scavenge and I would take money. Like, I would find it. I don't know how I got it, but I would— I would find money and I would like hide it away. So I was like obsessed with money. And then I was like obsessed with making money. And I've always wanted to like make money and like do things on my own. And so in middle school, I started like making things and selling them. It's just a process of making things and selling them. That's like all it is.

That's all I do.

It's all it is. And then like in high school, like I kept on doing that too. I do little projects here and there, like Um, I would like infuse my, my like art stuff with that and with my mom, and I would do like custom paintings for her clients, and I would rake it in. Like, as a high school student, I was making a good amount of money. Um, and I used that to get into college. I had an art portfolio. Like, I was deciding, oh, maybe I'll do the architecture route. I spent one summer at USC, um, in LA doing their like summer, uh, architecture program. And I would say I finish top of the class, extremely talented. But we spent 9 hours of the day in the basement, and like, I couldn't foresee myself like 9 hours a day in a basement while everyone's like marching around at USC and like having lots of fun, like going to games. Um, and then I also learned— I sniff this out very early— like, in any area that I'm going after, um, architects don't make that much money.

No, they don't.

They don't. It's a lot of effort for minimal like output. And so like, the, the energy towards like incentive. Like, it just wasn't computing for me. I didn't, I didn't get it. I love it, I appreciate it, I think that's great. Maybe I can do it later on in life, but like, I was like, this is not how I'm gonna make money. Um, and so long story short, I went to college for studio art. I got in with an art portfolio. I won a couple of awards, um, in high school. Like, like, I'm pretty talented, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I, I can flex on that. Like, Back in the day, I was a prodigy for sure.

No way.

But I get in there and I went to NYU. I really loved NYU and I wanted to go there because during orientation they were talking about how like theater students, you know, they pivoted and they went into finance and they're on Wall Street. And then like the Wall Street people pivoted and like they're in market, like they're doing like all these different things and people are trying things. Now it's a little bit of a joke because like Gallatin, like you can make up your own thing and it's very socialist, but that's fine. And so I was like, So I went there and I was like, this is great. Like I can do some entrepreneurial business stuff while I'm studying art. Turns out I have very low patience and high ADHD. So like I need to be doing lots of stuff at once. I learned very often, like one of the professors was like, yeah, like the common salary when you graduate, it's like $20,000. I'm like, $20,000? Are you kidding me? I live in New York. My student housing is like $30,000. What do you mean? Like, how, how is that a— what do you do? Like, that doesn't make any sense. Um, so I started working at startups. I started my own company. I then like worked at Google's incubator called 30 Weeks, um, here in New York. I was like working freelance and doing graphic design for people. I was just like hustling my butt off, like working like so many jobs at once. And it wasn't until I worked at 30 Weeks Google's incubator that I got exposed to venture capital because there was a venture capitalist on the team and he was, you know, he was looking at all the companies and he was making decisions on like which ones to take a bet on and which ones could, you know, do well and make money. And I was like, oh, like, I want that job. Like, that's cool.

That's cool.

I can learn how businesses work and like make money doing it. Like, that's awesome. I don't know what I'm doing building a company right now. But it seems like a low-risk, like, high-reward thing. And you get— yeah, you get like a really good, like, mix. And I just, like, tunnel vision was like, that's— I'm doing that. So I'm going to go do that. And I ended up like, like cruising through NYU. I graduated early and then I went down to a family office. I started working at a family office, got exposure to all the different things that I wanted to work on, whether it was like real estate starting a company or working in VC. And I just like, like gravity was pulling me over to VC because it was like heavily like research-oriented, but like also, you know, you're meeting people, it's social, it's like it's a lot of different things at once and it just like really fit my personality and I just really liked it.

I love it. That's so cool. Not as untraditional as Daniel Penney. His, his path to venture capital from the Marines choking out a dude in the subway to being A16 partner, but close, close second, right? Um, no, I love it. So I, you know, started out, uh, I studied English and have always been a creative kid. Um, I was selling stickers in high school that I designed on Photoshop, made like $40 grand selling stickers.

Oh my God.

Yeah, in middle school I was like making duct tape wallets and selling them.

Yeah, of course you were. So did I.

Making, uh, t-shirts and selling those. I was buying watches from Alibaba and like selling them and flipping them. So like, I've always just loved making things and selling them. And there's a certain point where you love your art and you like are trying to figure out like, hey, how do I make money? And it's, it's like this in-between point, right? It's like so scary. And it's like, you know, I, I don't know. I, I, I think we both did a good job with this combining the two where you get to like be artsy but also make money, like sorcery, right? Like I've always thought you've had like a good design flair with it. And now it makes sense knowing your artistic background. It's like, oh, like that's, that's how you had like the cool colors and the design. Like, I've always thought that's really good. So it's, it's cool. You can incorporate your art and still make money, right? Like you could, you could do both. You know, now like I get to build software, right? Memelord Technologies is, you know, this cool Windows 95 retro design. I'm literally using the same skills when I was 15 on Photoshop. To like go make stuff, right? Like if you look at my Facebook profile pictures from when I was 10, it's literally like my head cut out and like literally memes that I'm making now. Like I'm the same person, just have an audience and can make money with it. Like that's literally it. So if you're making art on the internet, just be patient, um, figure out a way to make money with it. But it takes a while. Um, and you can incorporate it in different ways. You, you're not a sellout just because you go do business. You can incorporate art in that. Andy Warhol has a great quote which is like, you know, good business is the best art, right? I talk about this a lot. It's like negotiating a deal. It's like screenwriting, right? When you think about it, like sending those emails, like you're hopping on the phone with like— it's drama, right? Like writing an advertisement, like that's poetry, you know? Like my aunt, she's, you know, a well-respected poet and won some awards, wrote some books, but she's broke as shit, right? You know, absolutely broke and like very, very pompous. Kind of broke, well-respected poet, it's like, I'd rather write tweets, write bangers that make, you know, a lot of money. Like, you know, yeah, I'm not going to go that path, but you can make money and still be artsy, you know? I guess that's, that's my little—

The problem is, though, because I did go to art school, I mean, I finished up pretty much like all my credits as fast as possible because I just wanted to take as many business courses as I could. Yeah, but the problem with like the whole The whole culture of art is you, you're not allowed to make money. No, no, no, no, you're supposed to suffer.

Exactly.

You're supposed to suffer and then your art will be good once you're dead. Like, it's just such a bad path.

Yeah.

And anybody who wants to make money is a horrible person. And, um, like, you know, Jeff Koons was like someone you, you didn't look up to and blah blah. I'm Are you kidding me? Like, he's a genius.

I know. It seems like Warhol.

Minimal effort, maximum output. This is amazing.

Yes.

And like, it works. And he's just cooking and he's doing a great job. And who— like, who's to say that's not success? Like, I think when you, like, bring up definitions of success, it's, it's, it's all really interesting and relative. And I do think, like, value is a social construct. But like, when you go across different categories too. Like even when you go into VC, like what is, what is successful for VC? Is it like raising a $50 billion fund over time or is it having like the most exits? Like what is it? And it's like hard to say because you would also say like, oh, maybe the person who can raise really large AUM is super successful because they're really good at selling. They're good at selling LPs, they're good at building a story and like a firm and like that kind of thing. But then other people would say like, no, it's the person with like the most amount of exits. So it's like, it's a weird thing. And I would say like the one thing that I really don't like about VC, it's when I, I mix in with my friends and like we talk, it's like if you bring up anyone, the immediate reaction is, oh, they're not that good. Like, oh, like they're bad. Or like you're just automatically like the initial reaction is like to put people down. It's wild in VC. Yeah, yeah, for sure. People just don't— they just talk trash about everyone. Yeah, it's not It's not— it's not healthy. But I don't think that's a secret either. Like, people are always just like, you know, it's a very like singular player game or single player game. I don't know what the gaming term is. And so it's super competitive and people are always like looking out for each other. But yeah, it's like a weird cultural kind of situation. And I guess like going back to art, It's okay to make money.

Yeah, it's okay to make money. You know, I, you know, selling out, right? Like, isn't the goal of every musician to sell out a stadium?

I would think so.

Yeah, that's the goal, right? It's okay to make money, you know.

But when do you push it too far?

When do you push it too far? When I think you push it too far when you do something that's completely against your morals, when you break maybe some laws potentially, depending the law, because maybe put up a website with one singular, um, no, not that.

Well, that one is definitely—

oh, we're talking Kanye.

Yes, we're talking.

All right, Kanye pushed it too far.

Too far. Way too far. He's gone. He's done. He can't come back from that. No, no, it's over. It's like, it's not cool.

Yeah, 100%. Um, acquiring a goon tech startup, goonmaps.com, not too far, right?

Uh, I don't know about that. I don't know.

I didn't get canceled. I had my best month ever last month. I'm chilling.

I, I get like Vice categories is one, one, you know, it's very, it's a very good business. It's a very good business. Like Vice categories in general, like things that sell are like porn and, and money and gambling and like that kind of thing. Um, to each their own. Okay.

Like, hey, you know, it's a, it's, it's a Men's Health data play actually.

Yeah. Okay.

Um, do you invest in biotech by the way?

I don't want to talk about this.

All right, we don't have to talk about it. Anyways, back to the important things of, uh, Kanye and swastikas. Uh, it's kind of sad because like, uh, I grew up super hard on Kanye, you know. Every Jewish teenage boy, like, Kanye was our dude. Like, we were nerdy Jewish kids and we just wanted to feel cool, so we listened to Graduation, you know. And when we got our heart broken, we listened to My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, right?

Yes.

And like Ah man, it's just sad. It's really sad. You know, our boy Jared, uh, biggest Kanye stan, you know, biggest. And now it's just like, bro, fuck that guy.

No, you— I'm sorry, you can't come back from that. Like, it's not— it's not cute, it's not funny, it's— it's not even like a troll play. Like, it's like too far.

It's— you're just pure hatred and antisemitism.

No, it absolutely is. I don't think there's like any place in society for any jokes on that, even if it was a stunt. Like, it's you just— he has kids and like he has all this stuff.

And I was thinking about that last night. I was just like, I feel so bad for them. I hope they're like okay. Like, I— like, they're probably getting made fun of and shit.

Like, I mean, you would—

you would hope that they're shielded for that, but can you really be shielded from that?

No, you— you can't. But like, I don't know what they would even— like, I don't know what their social circumstances are because like their family is shielded.

Whatever. I— I hope you know, prayers for Kanye, whatever. Like, let's, let's hope— I don't know, actually, you know what, fuck Kanye. I hope— yeah, I don't know why I was, I was saying that, I was saying that before because like I thought he was just like going through a manic breakdown a couple years ago. Oh, you know, guy needs his meds, whatever. But now at this point, it's, it's— I hope he ends up in jail or, you know, whatever.

No, like, there are like real repercussions for that. Um, I, I don't think you can play to the cutesy like creative aspect to it. I, I don't think you can play to like, oh, I'm a creative, I do crazy things, like I need to fuel my creativity and blah, blah, blah. I think he just generally, like, from my, from my psychoanalysis of the situation, I feel like with the Bianca stunt on the red carpet, and he went viral for that, like, you know, when you go viral, it sends off lots of endorphins. You feel the rush, like it's a real thing. You're glued to it, you're feeling like you're top of the world, and next thing you know, like like, okay, what, what other buttons can I press? Like, how far can I push things? Like, I think he, he's a little goon because he gets attention for it and he, he fuels off the attention. But I think you just, you can't, you can't come back from that one because it's not funny.

So let's, let's talk, uh, we want to talk about this earlier. We were talking, um, about pushing it too far, right? And so Kanye obviously pushed it too far. And that's something, you know, I work with 30+ brands, right, around meme marketing. A lot of it is unhinged, viral. And that's one of the first things we talk about is who can you not offend, right? And it's actually like a very, like, you know, interesting question to ask. So like some, some customers of mine and some clients, right, they can't offend founders, right? But they could offend VCs. So they could go make fun of VCs, but you can't offend founders, right? Other ones, you can't offend engineers. You know, but you could go, uh, you, you can make fun of product managers, right? And so like, that's something that we talk about all the time with, with founders that I work with is like, who do we have to be really careful to offend? Right. Um, so that's, that's something.

Do you think is, okay, so maybe I wanna break that down. Like, what is the formula for a viral meme?

What is the formula for a viral meme?

A little bit of offensiveness.

Yeah. A little bit of offensiveness, but not to the point of like, racism, even like I'd be careful around like sexism generally, like unless it's like a girl can be a lot more sexist, I think, than say a guy or a company. I don't know if that's true, but it feels like it's true. And I think, yeah, I think a little offensive is good, but like, or even pretty offensive, but I don't know, like the formula for viral meme is, is it funny? Uh, does it kind of— does it piss off the right people and make the, make the right people laugh? If that makes sense. Like, you want to offend some people, but you also want to make them laugh at the same time. I, I, I know which one does better, funny memes or like offensive memes. So like, memes are like hidden truths, you know? Like, it is a straight up hidden truth in this funny viral image. And yes, it offends like one group, right? You focus on some problem or some silly issue that they have. And you're able to like sort of offend them, but it's, it's not deep enough where they like hate you for it, right? That's, I think that's the line is like it offends you, but like you don't hate them and like want to like ruin their lives, right? Like, you know, Kanye, like, no, he should be in jail. But like somebody else making a funny Jewish joke, like, I wouldn't think that, right? You know, or somebody makes a joke about marketers like, eh, I think it's funny, right? But if they say like marketers are all scammers and terrible people, it's like, no, like block, right? You know, so like, can you push the line without going too far? I think is the thing, right? So yesterday I have a post doing really well right now about like making fun of French founders, right? And my wife, you know, my wife was like very— she's like, oh, you're going to get in trouble for that. And then I posted it and like a couple of French friends actually were just commented and said, that's hilarious. Like, because I didn't go too far, you know, and they know I'm joking. So there's a fine line that you have to figure out where it's like, can you offend them without, you know, ruining, ruining their day? Like, without making it so deep and like attack personal? Like, can you offend them in the right way? And it's a very careful thing.

You, you work with many different types of clients.

Yeah.

Can you like break down like who that profile is?

Yeah. Yeah. So we, we work with a ton of, tons of startups like Supabase, Wapp.

I'm interviewing you now.

Yeah, it's all good. It's all good. So we work with a ton of startups. All are VC-backed generally. I like to work with companies that have already found PMF, have already— they're growing fast and they just need another lever. So you asked me earlier when we were having smoothies, it was like, what's you know, how do you monetize memes? And like memes are, you know, the definition of low work, high reward. And that's why I love them too, because I'm like you. I like, you know, as little work with as high reward as possible. And so you think about a meme, it's, you know, super fast to make. It's cheap and inherently viral. I've seen, you know, companies and startups that I work with land six-figure B2B contracts from a meme that took 6 seconds to make, right?

Yeah.

I've seen, you know, founders make millions of dollars, literally millions. Chris Bakke, right? You've seen him online. and he drove $3 million for his company Lasky from just viral memes and then plugging underneath, right? And then he sold his company for 100 mil to Elon. So like memes are the definition of high ROI, high leverage. Um, so generally like what we focus on is companies that have already found PMF. Like we're not gonna save you, right? This is something that I talk about all the time. Like not all companies should do meme marketing. If your product sucks, being funny's not gonna save you. Like you need a good product. And it's the same thing with like, like, you know, why are some— why do some meme pages, why are they broke and why are other ones, you know, making millions, right? It's like, well, you need a good monetization strategy. You need smart tactics. You need smart posts too. Like Liquidity, right? Makes millions. Why are other dumb finance pages not making that? It's because he's really smart and he has like a whole newsletter with like, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars worth of ads every year. Like you need like a whole strategy. Memes are just the lever that you throw on top of it.

It.

Um, they're a very, very powerful lever, uh, but you need like good underlying mechanisms and structures and monetization strategies. Um, so if your product sucks, like memes aren't gonna save you. Like viral TikToks, whatever, it's not gonna save you if your product sucks. Like I have to have that conversation like a lot with people where it's like, you're probably not ready for us.

Like you don't use TikTok, do you?

I haven't had it on my phone for like a year. Yeah. No, no. Why would I use TikTok? Chinese CCP app, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I like Instagram. I don't know.

So you throw, you throw your videos up. I know you do videos.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I post my video on Instagram and I just use repurpose.io and, um, they, it just automatically repurposes. It sends over to TikTok. I don't have it on my phone, but it just sends over there. And I do see people clicking on the link and signing up for my shit. I don't go on there.

Do you see, are you like, are you tracking all the backlinks of like, where are the traffic coming from, like which channel does?

Yeah, so for my services and my products like me, me, Lord Tech, uh, most comes from Twitter, from LinkedIn, uh, starting to see more Instagram now that that's growing.

We have to talk about LinkedIn because I, I actually had this in Sorcery Today. I don't know when this is coming out, but, um, at the bottom behind the paywall is, is a LinkedIn stat of there's like $16 billion of, of like value for LinkedIn influencers. Like, that's insane.

Yeah, let's not tell anybody.

There's a money grab, but we're not going to talk about that anymore because we are going to talk about something else.

Let's talk about other money grabs.

But yeah, we can keep that one to ourselves.

Yeah, there's a lot of money on LinkedIn, and if you're sleeping on LinkedIn just because it's cringe, you're probably kind of stupid. Yeah, but like, care about making money.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but I saw— like, you see media trends come and go.

Yeah.

When ChatGPT started to come out, I saw like lots of different VCs use it for like their LinkedIn posts and they were just doing, you know, content farming and that kind of thing. And I started to see that weed out.

Yeah.

And I don't, I don't know how to optimize my LinkedIn feed.

It's all, you know, so I have my boy Jack Kubecki on the podcast a lot. He is the king of viral LinkedIn, like 40, 50,000 followers on there, and his is all shitposts and satire. And it really comes down to what you just said, which is so many people are doing ChatGPT AI crap that by being funny and unhinged, memes, satire, you stand out.

But it's like, it's, it is such a line because it's a professional network.

Right? Sure. It's a professional network, but we're professional in a professional network, but we could still laugh together, right?

Yeah.

Like think about it. Salespeople, like what's the OG salesperson tactic? You make somebody laugh with a joke. Right. And so you could still make people laugh. Twitter is a professional network, you know, like Twitter's where I make all my money and LinkedIn. And it's like I'm still a goofball, right? Like people are just people. They like to laugh, you know, at the end of the day, like you could be funny with business. People want to work with people they like, right? I don't know. I think there's, there's a lot of alpha there. Somebody that, you know, I really look up to in VC world is Julie Fredrickson. Not sure if you know her.

No, I don't.

She's— she runs a VC firm called Chaotic Capital.

Okay.

And her whole thing is she just finds weird nerds, right? So what you're saying on, you know, and she is super unhinged. And how do you attract weird nerds? You be unhinged on the internet and that's how you find them, right? And if you want to find people working on the weird stuff, you be kind of unhinged, right? And that's— it's definitely led me to all sorts of of crazy people talking to crazy people and smart people too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what we were talking about earlier. Yeah, it's, um, I don't know. I think as AI slop continues to take over the internet with AI writing, AI code, uh, AI whatever, um, the thoughtfulness and craft and being silly, authentic, whatever it means— maybe it's not being unhinged. Not everybody wants to be unhinged. Maybe you just want to be deep and personal. Like, that's cool too, as long as it's not AI BS, right? Like, your personal stories, right? Sharing those. I share about my failures, like all my sorts of business failures, or, you know, even mental health struggles when I was younger, right? Sharing that, like, AI can't make that up. That's a moat, right? Like, your story, your art story, that's a moat right there. Like, if I were you, I would double down on that because I think it's fascinating and I think it's really cool. And, uh, yeah, sharing your personal stories is, is such a moat. AI doesn't have that.

Yeah, but I think, um, I think this kind of comes back to a little bit what we were talking about earlier, and maybe one thing we can talk about going forward is putting stuff out there and like having some sort of brand for yourself or projects or doing your own thing. Um, most people don't do that. That's why there's such a like uncorrelated advantage for even just posting on it because, yeah, I wasn't like 80, 70 to 80%, maybe even 90% of people on like X, they just, they're just passive viewers.

They're just lurkers.

They're just lurkers.

The internet is just lurkers.

Yeah, it's just lurkers.

It's crazy to think about.

And like, even, even so, the post I put out and, um, I don't think people see it, they see it. And like, then I get texts like, damn, I thought I like deleted that, no one saw that. And then my friend's like referencing it. I'm like, oh my God.

I don't know if you've ever had this too, where a friend will like watch a video or they'll read one of your posts, but they won't like it.

Yeah, they don't do that. You have to like it. You have to engage.

What?

Do you not want to be my friend?

You love it?

Like, how is this?

Yeah. And then you text me about it, but you didn't like it. It's like, I'm not even upset. I'm just confused. Like, why are you on this platform if you're just lurking? Like what? What is like doing a like? Nobody could see that anymore on Twitter. It's all private. Like, why are you being so—

do you think we should bring back viewed likes?

No, I love it. I love it. People are being much more honest with their likes. They're being much more, you know, upfront and honest about what they like and what they don't. I think—

is it causing you to like more things?

Definitely, I think so. Um, I think, I, I think definitely liking some more of the cancelable stuff or, you know, goofy takes Um, I, I think, yeah, I think it increases freedom of speech. Um, your shit should be private.

Does that mess with your algorithm though?

I don't know.

It messes with mine.

My algo is great.

I'll, I'll— oh my gosh, I'm constantly complaining about that.

I know, just unfollow people.

It doesn't work. It doesn't work like that. I feel like it's all behavioral based.

Oh, I see great stuff every day on my timeline. My timeline is like a meme, and then it's JD Vance saying something, and it's Trump and Elon, and then it's Sam Altman being unhinged, and then it's my friend and then it's like a half-naked girl and I'm just like, I love the internet, man. Like, it's amazing. It can't get much better, you know? What else could a man ask for?

I don't know.

Exactly. Exactly. Um, so let's talk VC stuff. Uh, what are you excited about macro trends coming up?

It's pre— I mean, it's pretty clear, like, the AI race is taking off.

What's AI?

Uh, it's called— I think it's— I can't even come up with something silly right now.

Oh God, uh, autistic intelligence.

Autistic.

Artistic.

Artistic inferencing.

Oh, I like that. I like that. That's what it feels like sometimes. It's being a little artsy, you know?

I would hope so. Um, so more like, more seriously, last year was a total mess. This year you're starting to see apps take off, like AI apps and verticalization.

What does that mean? Can you like— I hear people talk about vertical SaaS. I'm gonna be honest, I run a 7-figure business here. I have no idea what vertical SaaS actually means. No clue.

Just, yeah, okay, so let's just go into like sales. Sales go into like lead gen. Okay, vertical SaaS right there.

It's just like a normal business.

One slice.

Like slice. Is that just like a normal thing?

Uh, it, it is, but you like the way that, the way that like VCs view things are by market maps, even if it's like unconscious. So you have to like break it up. Theses like make like investment theses make up how your brand is perceived, how your fund is perceived, how you're pitching your fund to LPs, which are outside investors, how you attract different companies.

So that's why every VC is just posting market maps.

That, that's why, um, they go viral pretty well too. That's good. But, um, they're also kind of like a hindsight bias kind of thing, because if you make a market map, like, the market's already made. So what— I don't know, I don't know how to go about that. But anyways, um, vertical, vertical AI and like apps and that kind of thing.

So vertical just for one vertical?

So means just like any certain lane, just pick one topic and go deep on that. That's the vertical.

Oh, I just call that being autistic.

But okay, that may be, um, true.

But so are there any verticals you're like super excited about with AI, or just like the fact that AI is now affecting so many different verticals?

My point for this is that there are going to be winners in each of these categories that may have taken off or haven't already taken off. Um, but like the inflection point of building a really efficient self-sustaining business is becoming true. Like, you're able to actually implement AI systems and workflows that make your organization much more smart, much more intelligent, much more efficient in how you deploy your dollars and you hire and your products and how you test things. And so you have like a much faster loop on like understanding a cool workflow that I just implemented.

I feel like you'll love this. No, this isn't like weird at all. Okay, it's actually really smart. and I was going to keep it secret, but you know what, we're talking about this, so I'll say it. So when I schedule a post on Typefully, right, I'll schedule out, you know, a post about my software, Memelord Technologies, or I'll schedule it about something else. What I then have it do, sends to Zapier, sends to ChatGPT, and then sends different versions to each of my employees for them to post.

Wow.

I know, right?

See, there you go, right?

So each of them posts their own variant, and I tell that, you know, one of my employees is super funny, right? So I say that. And one is like the salesperson, so I say like focus a little more on the sales stuff. And they still have to edit a little bit, but then I have my whole mafia posting, right?

And it's—

oh, it's, it's working really well.

That's a really good workflow.

Yeah, yeah. I'm waiting for it on Zapier in like 10 minutes. I was thinking like, is there a product there? There might— I might start— I might build a SaaS out of that like real quick.

You could sell that as a product.

I think I could build a SaaS out of that for founders.

I mean, but you just like revealed the recipe, so I don't—

okay, maybe we'll cut.

You can like open source it. Um, I would say like it would be really cool. I would love this if, if I could get like an ex-AI agent and I could like type up a post. Like I have them like in my drafts of like different pods that I do, different content, like different clips, like all that kind of stuff, or like just things I like. Um, it would be great if it could just press send on when it's relevant in the timeline so it hits better.

Smart.

It would be so much better. It would be so much more efficient. But you know when you like, you, you fish into the pond and like you throw it out there and it just doesn't hit? You're like, why?

It's very frustrating.

It's really frustrating.

I have people ask me sometimes, are they just like, what am I doing wrong with Twitter? I was like, dude, I don't know. Like, I've got 33,000 followers.

Remember when we were like on Twitter and like Elon like had just started and we were probably the only ones like who were on it at the time. It was so easy.

It was easier.

It was so easy to game that.

Like, it was easier. A lot of threads were going viral, but now it does feel— I was thinking about this. I think they increased basically like a randomization factor where your posts, um, I think if, say, all right, think about like a dopamine lottery, right? How do you make a platform as addictive as possible? You increase the randomization factor of what goes viral.

Yeah.

Like, that's what I would do if I was trying to drive up time spent, right?

Mm-hmm.

That's kind of what I think they did, not gonna lie, is they increased the, the randomization factor.

I just don't like games. I just wanna be able to do the thing.

It's, it's fun though.

I'm sorry, we, I totally took us on another tangent.

Where were we talking about VC?

We were talking about VC.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I agree with that. Uh, a lot of cool vertical AI. I invested in one called Fondo, which is all around like accounting AI. Um, and then Prompt Layer, so that's our boy Jared, and that's more around like, you know, prompt engineering and stuff, which is more overarching, I guess. But yeah, I think some of the biggest winners are just going to be the companies that are using AI well, uh, rather than like—

I think it's going to be so unpredictable and you won't know it, but it's going to be some cracked team that's like doing some sort of AI-driven play and you wouldn't know it. Like, I'm meeting so— and it's awesome because I, I have so many talented and smart friends, and we're kind of like at the point in our lives where we know enough about the world that like, okay, maybe we would start a company or like go off and do the thing. Um, yeah, I think you have to be a degree of like not overthink things in order to withstand it. But, um, there, there is a point at which like so many friends— so, so many of my friends are like starting companies and they're doing really well. And I'm meeting all these really young people who are starting companies and they're doing really well. And they're all just like internet native people who learn really fast, who are interested in things and aren't really like thinking— I mean, obviously they're thinking like, I want to build a billion-dollar business, but it like the, the iteration cycle is so much faster and you can tell whether or not it's working or not in a much more compressed timeline. And they're all different ideas. Like it's not just one thing. Like it's so general and based on their own interests of like what they're doing at the time.

100%. The internet is run by autodidacts. Yeah. Who learns themselves. You know, you talk about that a lot.

Yeah, that was, that was my Twitter bio for a bit. Investing in autodidacts.

Yeah. I mean, those are the people that—

I thought it was a great word.

Yeah, I love that word. It's a great word. If you don't know what it means, it's somebody who teaches themselves. I think in today's world you have to be that, especially like I've just, I always hated school and like I just learn better by doing things.

Yeah.

And I think, I think everybody is generally like that. That, whether they know it or not.

Um, so I, you know, I was like reading— no, I wasn't reading, I was watching a video on Instagram, of course. So like, don't take this with a grain of salt, but I, I feel like more, more than not, a narrative I'm seeing online is like, you don't have ADHD, you're just not interested in what you're doing. And I think that's like kind of true to a, like, some sort of effect, because once you like find something that you're interested in, you get like super deep into it, and then you go all into Yeah, like so many people are like forced into different worlds in which they just, they're just following a system that they're kind of blasé about it all and they don't really realize what they're interested in. But if you find what you're interested in, you actually go for it, like you'll put much more energy towards it and won't feel like effort, you know?

100%. I, you know, definitely have quote unquote ADHD, but I'm able to focus on what I do because I love it. Like I'm having fun, you know, and I'm doing 100 different things. I'm jumping around between building software and marketing and filming content, talking with my team, whatnot. But like, I love it. Uh, I saw a tweet which was interesting around that too, which was like, ADHD is just a sign that you were meant for like something more exciting, or like biologically, which like to some degree I sort of agree with, where it's like, were we really meant as humans to be sitting behind a laptop? And it's like, how can you make that as exciting as possible? You build unhinged software. That's like, I know I'm, I'm, I'm marketing a little bit here, but like, what can be the most exciting thing possible? We're not meant to be sitting behind Salesforce or Excel. It's like a lot more fun to do like silly stuff on the internet and make crazy content and go viral. It's like the closest thing to like hunting and gathering and like the excitement of being a cave person.

Yeah.

Is like building crazy shit on the internet is like our modern, you know, going to war, I guess.

I don't know. But who can tell what's going to happen? I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. But I think— is there anything else we want to cover? Any, any questions? Anything?

What are your goals for this year?

Oh, what are my goals?

You're on— you're on your path to $100 million in revenue. I don't know about $100 million.

Let's be that. Yeah, I'll be— I'll be cursor for memes.

Yeah.

Goals this year. So should his hit 7 figures. So super excited about that.

Congrats.

Thank you. Super excited. Um, and want to keep the team happy, get them rich, get them paid well, uh, bring them out to the US, uh, for a nice little retreat. Uh, so that should be fun to have them out in New York. Um, other than that, launching this show with Jack Kubecki. So that's gonna be fun. Um, I would like to turn that from just like a show into something a lot bigger. So So, um, we'll see. And then top of that, I think just dive deeper into weird creative stuff. Like when I was in college, I used to write screenplays and I wrote a novel and stuff like that. And you know, this goes back to our conversation earlier, which is artsy people need to make money. And so sometimes you lose sight of that. And I haven't been writing as much fiction or movies as much as I used to, and I feel that muscle depleting. And it's really sad because I'm finally hitting the point where like I have book publishers hitting me up and I have potential like, you know, screenplay stuff coming into fruition and I don't have that muscle anymore because I stopped for a couple of years to focus on business.

Right.

So what I'm saying here is like, take some time away from scrolling Twitter, take some time away from, you know, reading boring stuff and get back onto the creative writing novels and screenplay. And I was just like, I think, yeah, I think that would, that'd be, that'd be one of them is, uh, you know, get back to writing. Maybe, maybe write a novel by the end of the year. We'll see.

So that's a good goal.

Yeah, I've got, I've got a, I've got one half finished and I've got another in the pipeline. So, um, yeah, I just want to get back to making weird creative stuff.

I, I make a lot of weird creative stuff, but really, what do you mean?

I don't know.

I don't know.

What about you? What kind of crazy goals? Anything big? I know you're talking about Buying a house or breaking into a house? I don't know.

Well, no, I was— we were talking about manifesting.

Oh yeah, manifesting.

We were talking about manifesting before. Uh, didn't Mr. Matt say he was manifesting?

So I think manifesting, in this last 4 minutes, last few minutes, uh, the problem with manifesting is you need to work hard. And like, I think that's what the entire manifest movement misses, is like, you can say stuff, but you actually have to do stuff. So like, memes make—

okay, so I I love psychology and I, I like, I've really followed it for a while. Different like psychologists and behavioral experts and that sort of thing. And there is this one, I forget his name, but the whole premise is like once you manifest something and you think about something and you think about it over and over again, then your body and your brain starts to rewire to orient yourself towards that. And like, that's just part of it. But like, you do also have to make the actions to get there. Yeah. Um, what we were talking about is like, I just felt like— I feel like I'm gonna be living in a house by the end of the year. Like, I don't know why. Maybe it's my parents' house. Yeah, I don't know. Hopefully things go well. Um, not that I'm gonna buy anything. I just like— I just don't feel like I'm gonna be living in an apartment anymore. I've been living in an apartment since like freshman year of college because I went to NYU. Like, it just feels like I'm done with that. And maybe that's just a psychological—

what are their goals? Besides Britney Spears' house?

Well, we, we have to grow Sorcery very large, so please subscribe. Subscribe to Sorcery. Subscribe and upgrade.

Damn right.

Yeah, and, uh, so we're gonna be growing that out. I have a day job. I work at a family office. I don't really talk about it, um, but I'm still an active investor, so closing more deals would be great.

Oh, I got one last question as well. Can I just like start a family office with like, you know, not a lot of money? Like, um, can anybody just start a family office?

Yeah.

Yeah. You could just like, can I make my dog my, like my, my family office guy? I think I'm gonna write a tweet about this.

Okay.

Announcement. I'm launching a family office. My, my dog is my investor. He's investing one bone per day.

Well, it would be your money.

Well, it could be a couple bones, you know?

Okay. Yeah, then sure. Yeah.

But can anybody just have a family office?

The whole point of like—

I know is you have so much money that you need somebody to manage it, right?

Kind of. I mean, the premise is that like you've gotten to a point where your time and energy towards your personal investments kind of exceeds a hobby. It's like you're really managing assets, right? And it can be anything from VC, it could be like angel investments, it could be private equity, it could be real estate, it could be art collections. Like family offices can implies so many things. It could be sports teams. It's all of these things, and you're managing all these different assets. And it— sometimes you bring in outside people, sometimes you grow it from within.

What's the minimum?

I don't know if there's a minimum.

I think I'm going to start a family office.

You should. Yeah, start, start one today. Do you have an angel fund? Are you investing?

I invest a little bit.

Just say it's, you know, it's your family office investment fund.

I'm gonna start saying that. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Why not?

Anybody, you could just do things.

You throw some philanthropy money in there too. You're gonna really grow a nice asset base.

I'm gonna start a family office right now.

Cool.

My dog is my chief family office.

I don't know why you keep on talking about your dog, but okay.

So cute.

Okay.

He's my CMO too. So good.

Great. Awesome.