#20: John Swetnam - Hollywood screenwriting, intellectual property, web3

Take a story, take some characters, create some kind of NFT experience, and that's it. And that's your story. You mint, you mint the collectibles. They're actually collectibles. And then you try to take that concept and option it and license it to film, television, video games, merchandising, whatever. Right. But you create the concept. And the IP first.

All right, welcome to another episode of Cyber Patterns. Today we have Jon Swetnam on. He is a Hollywood screenwriter with projects at HBO Max, DC Comics, Disney and Hulu, and much more. He is super successful in the industry and is now working on a Web3 project called Little Sins. I'll let him tell you more about it in Enjoy. So I guess for the listeners, um, I mean, I already know a bit about your experience, but if you could, if you could speak a little bit about your writing experience and what that's been like.

Sure. So, um, you know, I've been working in Hollywood for a little over 10 years, um, but it was not easy, right? So I sort of— it took me about 10 years to break in. So if I go kind of let me start from this, sort of the beginning, is, you know, I'm a kid from nowhere. I don't have any connections to the business, didn't know anybody. Basically, you know, drove cross-country to Los Angeles, um, ended up applying to grad school, got a master's degree, um, and then moved to Los Angeles. And I was like, oh, I've got a master's degree, I'm a screenwriter, like literally says on it, Master of Screenwriting. So I moved to Hollywood and I'm like, oh man, I'm about to crush it. And I remember within the first week, I couldn't even get a job waiting tables. Like, I remember walking down to like, there's a California Pizza Kitchen, and they gave you like a 5-page like sommelier wine test. And I, and I, and I, I, I was like, oh my God, like, this is crazy. Um, so I literally, I couldn't get a job waiting tables. I ended up commuting like 45 minutes to an Olive Garden. It was the only place I could get a job because no one— I would tell people I was a master of screenwriting and they would just laugh at me. Um, and so really, I hustled and grinded for almost 10 years when I look back. I wrote 19 scripts. You know, I would, you know, I would just, I would go everywhere, I would intern, I would give people my scripts when they weren't ready. Um, you know, it was the real, it was the real sort of hustle. Um, and then finally on number 19, uh, I sold number 19. That became a movie called Evidence. Um, you can watch, uh, you know, it's Netflix, Amazon. Um, and then once that movie got made, uh, I sort of was like, okay, they've let me in, I'm, I'm never like, I'm never leaving. And so I just sort of turned the hustle up, and that's when I went into like writing spec scripts, you know. Within— I sold a really large spec script that same year called Into the Storm, which became a movie, uh, you know, it's done $170 million or something like that. And then basically once that happened, I started becoming a studio writer. I would sell spec scripts, I would pitch on assignments, and I just worked. And I ended up having two studio movies open on the same day. And then that following Monday, I started directing my first movie, which was an independent movie that I did that I produced with John Legend. So it was like, uh, you know, the career went really, really well. And for the last 10 years, I've been selling movies and television shows. I've worked on tons of TV and movies. You know, I'm currently, um, you know, I have right now, I have a movie at Mattel, a movie at Warner Brothers. I'm doing an action movie with Vin Diesel at STX. I'm doing a, another movie with a celebrity, um, sort of his directorial debut, um, in TV. I'm writing and producing a I can't say the name of it since we're recording, but it's a DC Comics, J.J. Abrams giant live-action show. It's a character that everybody knows at HBO Max. And I'm also executive producer and creator of an upcoming show, which is for Disney Hulu, that I'm producing with Sylvester Stallone. And it's sort of a Creed in the world of martial arts. And yeah, so I've just been doing this a long time, like over 10 years, and continue to do it. And that's my— That's my job. Web3, NFTs is not my job.

No, that's legendary, man. I mean, like I said last time we talked, I wrote scripts when I was younger and dreamed of it. And I'm in a weird place where I just got led into the writing world for the first time. This guy, Greg Eisenberg, who's a Web3 dude, and he gave me a chance and then just going all in with it now, full-time job writing. And it's like never giving that up. Yeah, I'm definitely curious, uh, your kind of writing process when it comes to writing scripts. Um, you know, those are, those are longer, and, and like articles I could bang out in like a few hours, you know, maybe over a day, maybe two days at most. But longer pieces like that, how do you, how do you, how do you do that?

Yeah, I think with, with scripts, you know, I think one of the things that people don't understand is that I'd say 90-something percent of screenwriters learn. It's a, it's like, it's like a craft, right? Like, it's, it's not— to me, most working screenwriters, it's not some just born talent, you know? Like, obviously you're a storyteller, but like, most of them, they do the work. And, and after you've, you've put in the time and the effort— and, you know, again, I wrote 19 scripts that were, that were not good, right? I read every screenwriting book. I would watch movies and then basically break them down myself to start to understand the structure of movies, right? And then I would write my own movies, then I would rewrite those movies movies. Um, and what happens is, just like anything, right? It's like, um, you know, it's like guys that are just, you know, jacked at the gym. Like, they just go to the gym every day, right? Like, they work every day, and then they eat a certain way. Um, and I think with screenwriting, it's— to me anyway, it's very much a craft. It's very much a— the more you do it, the more you're around it, the more you study it, the more you practice it, the better you can get. And now there's people that have that extra talent, that extra voice, that become like the greats. But I'm not that. I'm a working, you know, mid, mid to mid-upper level writer. And like, and I'm— I don't believe I have an innate talent. I believe that I just worked really, really, really hard to figure it out. And with screenwriting, there's structure to it, right? There are the things you can learn, um, that pretty much all successful movies do the same things, right? And once you start to learn that structure and you start to build the sandbox in which you can play, that's when you can start to get creative and have your voice. But you have to really learn, like, how to build that structure first. And then if you want to break the rules, right, and build it in a different way, like, that's fine. But if you're going to break the rules, it's always best to, like, know them. So for me, when I tackle a script— and it depends too, like, you know, most of my— I'd say nowadays almost 100% of my— what I do is assignment work, right? So somebody, you know, basically somebody will call my agents or whatever, and they'll say, listen, we have this comic. It's usually a comic book, a book, a remake of a movie, um, something like that, right? Like, I just, you know, I have a 47 Ronin Part 2 is coming out that I just— I wrote last year that they just made. So it's like stuff like that. It's always some piece of IP. They'll call me and they'll say, we have this piece of IP, we'd love Jon to take a look at it. And so what I'll do is sort of think about the big ideas of it, right? If someone said to you, say, listen, we're gonna make, um, you know, we're gonna do a Top Gun sequel, we're interested in doing a Top Gun sequel, right? So you then have to think to yourself, okay, like what would a Top Gun sequel be? Like what's the story? Like what's awesome about that? Like what would I wanna do? And then you kind of come up with the macro ideas and sort of the big concepts and then you go pitch that. And then if they like your take on it, you then start to flesh it out, right? You start to like build it, you know, first act, second act, third act, sort of the big scenes, the big action, how does it all end? So it's kind of like you sort of, you build it that way, and you're usually working with producers, you're working with studio people, and you're kind of building it together typically. And then once you have this sort of like blueprint, right, like an outline or something, then you can go off and you, and you write it yourself. But you have an outline, right? You, you kind of know what you're doing, and then you just try to have fun within this outline that you've built. So that's how you do like the assignments, or at least that's how I, I do them. And then The fun part is like spec scripts, and a spec script basically means it's speculative, right? Like I write a script because I want to, and then when it's finished, I try to sell it. Like that's my favorite thing to do. Like I've sold, I don't know, maybe 8 or 9 specs. Like it's super fun because nobody's bothering me. And so with that, you can do whatever you want, right? Like, so I've had, if I have an idea, I'll just write it. Just to give you an example, there was a, I remember John Wick had come out and I love John Wick, right? And I was at— I had a meeting at Lionsgate, and I, I was basically like, what about like John Wick with like a woman, you know, like a female John Wick, was kind of my take. I was like, oh man, I'd love to do like a version of this kind of badass action but with a female. And then I came up with an idea. I was like, oh okay, it's like this retired assassin, she finds out she has like a brain tumor and she's gonna die in 6 months, and in order to take care of her daughter, she's got to do like one last job, right? She's got to do this crazy-ass job in order to make enough money to like leave for her daughter because she's gonna die. That was the concept, and I pitched it as John Wick 4. And then I just went and I just wrote it, right? I literally was just like, what's the fucking coolest action I can come up with? I just, I just had fun and just did whatever I wanted. And then when it was finished, we then, you know, myself, my team, we take it out to market. And you, hopefully the goal is to get like a bidding war, to have multiple studios We were fortunate, we had multiple studios bidding on it, ended up selling it to, um, to Amblin DreamWorks with Steven Spielberg executive producing. And it was, you know, it was a big sale. The movie never got made, but I sold that script and I just had fun writing it. So, so to answer your question, it's basically like, if you're writing for yourself, do whatever the fuck you want, you know, because if it doesn't work, people won't buy it, right? If it works, people will buy it. If you're working for a studio, it has to be very structured. You have to really sort of think of the macro ideas come up with an outline, you know, figure out your scenes. Like, it's much more, um, it's much more structure, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that makes sense. And so when you say your team goes and, and works on pitching it, um, what does a team comprise of?

So most writers have— so, so I'm the one who pitches it, but typically, like, my, my full, you know, my team is basically my manager. Um, I have multiple agents, so I have you know, film agents, and then I have television agents, and then I have a law firm. I have Two Point Lawyers. So that's kind of like my, my team for every deal that I do. When you're going to pitch a studio, sometimes you'll, you'll add on a producer, right? So like a producer might come to me first and say, hey, you know, they're, they're going to remake something at this studio. We, we're going to take in 3 writers to the studio. So then a producer might be part of that team for that pitch, but they're not my full-time team, right? A writer, what they mean when they say their team is usually manager, agents, and lawyers.

Got you. And so jumping back and moving into intellectual property and just that, and it's cool what you're doing with Little Sense. So how do you think IP is going to be transforming with Web3 and just kind of in the future?

Yeah, look, that's why I'm in it. Again, I I have a day job, but I see this thing happening that I'm very interested in, which is the idea of just tilting the balance a little bit more towards creators and their communities. I just believe in trying to make things more fair. And for me, I have a certain expertise, which is in Hollywood entertainment, film and television. So it's like, I'm not going to go off and try something else. That's what I know. So how can I make that industry and what I do more fair, like more equitable, right? More accessible to people where it becomes— again, I'm not trying to blow up Hollywood. I love Hollywood. People hate it. It's, it's been good to me, man. It's been my dream my whole life. I've— it has afforded me the life of my dreams. Like, I love Hollywood. Obviously there's tons that is wrong and needs to be fixed, which is what I want to do with Web3, is just help sort of tilt it over. And so with, with IP, for me, what I— there's, there's there's like versions of it, right? And I think people don't categorize it enough because you have like independent film, right? Like making movies in Web3, like that's, that's a separate thing than what I'm talking about. That is basically changing the indie film market. And I think NFTs are going to change the film, the indie film market, like immediately. I think there is an amazing thing happening and that's going to be fantastic. I'm talking about how do you change Hollywood? How do you get Hollywood to take Web3 seriously when it comes to intellectual property? Because That's where I— to me, that's the best way to make change, is to have, you know, to have a movie on 3,000 screens or a show on Netflix or Amazon Prime that people love. And then it's— when they go to look at it, it says based on an NFT, and that immediately is going to get regular people to be like, what's that? What's an NFT? Based on an NFT. And it's not only going to get regular people to be interested, it's going to get other studios, right? Because if I'm Netflix and I see that Amazon Prime has this new show and it's based on NFTs, I'm going to start looking at NFTs to find the next, like, idea, right? Like, that's what they did with, like, graphic novels and comic books, right? Like, there's executives that scour comic book stores looking for seeds of an idea to turn into movies and television, right? So my goal is to, is to make Web3 that place for creators, right? Because, because I think as a, as a, as a screenwriter, I have no rights to my IP. When I sold that script, the John Wick script, I have no rights to it. Like, I couldn't use that character in something else. I made her up. Like, it's a whole story I made up, but I sold it. I, I cashed the check. There's nothing I can do. I have no ownership. And so for someone like me and other storytellers, what if, what if you could just go and create an NFT collection and tell a story? And there's an idea, and when you mint it, it's basically like self-publishing a graphic novel, right? It's the same thing. Like, because Little Sins, when I'm finished is a piece of intellectual property, right? It exists. It's a story. There's some art. It's been minted. Like, here's a piece of intellectual property, just like a graphic novel or a comic book or a video game, whatever. It doesn't matter. It's a piece of intellectual property. So what I can do now is I can take that, I can go partner with an A-list producer, I can shop that to Netflix and Amazon, and I can go turn that into The Umbrella Academy, right, or The Boys or The Walking Dead. All those are based on graphic novels. The Walking Dead is based on a graphic novel. It's not like that graphic novel was the most famous graphic novel in the world. It's a fantastic idea. Little Sins, to me, is an experiment of that. Can I basically create almost like a graphic novel of NFTs, and basically make the same deal with a Netflix that you would make with a graphic novel? Because if I can have that show, like The Umbrella Academy, based on a graphic novel, so why can't Little Sins the show, live-action show starring Ryan Reynolds, whatever, based on an NFT, right? It's the same. It could be the same thing. And I think if I can crack that nut, all of a sudden you're going to see studios coming to Web3 looking for more IP. You're going to have project founders start really taking seriously concept, you know, character, story, and they're going to start creating like better IP. Um, like, so that's my mission. Like, that's what I'm— that's what I'm excited to do. And again, it's, it's, it's just fun for me, right? Like, I want to see if I can do it. I You know, everyone talks like they can do it, and no offense, but like, I can do it. This is what I do for a living, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And the way that you put it, I, I see how that's 100% possible, you know. Um, and, and as a, as a writer, as somebody like that, like, I've, I've been tempted to jump into collections, and I'm sure like I could have done it before, but I didn't want to end up managing a Discord. And dealing with that and hacks and prices fluctuating. And now I see where it's like, oh, like if I, like I had, you know, some ideas in the back of my head, but I never pulled the trigger because I didn't see the end goal. I wanted something for people to really jump into, whether it was like my stories and, you know, those are connected to NFTs or, you know, building it up like that. I didn't want it just to be some profile pictures.

Yeah. I mean, imagine if like, you know, it's like, People use the Star Wars example, but I think they use it wrong, right? 'Cause I think a lot of people talk about, we're building Star Wars, and then imagine if you could own Luke Skywalker or whatever. But the difference with most of the projects that I see is that they're building the world first, right? It's this world, it's 10,000 kind of random characters. That's not Luke. Those characters aren't Luke and Han and Chewbacca. Those are just Stormtroopers, which is cool, But what I'm interested in is like actually telling the story. So if I were— like what I'm doing with my collection and what I wish more writers would do is like create the Star Wars story. So create a story of 5 characters, right? Luke, Han, Leia, you know, Chewbacca, whatever. And then create a project that like gets people to know those characters and like, like those characters. Tell a little bit of a story so they understand like what that thing is. And then You can then, if they own it, they actually do own Luke, right? Because that actually is Luke. It's not just the world. You're telling an actual story. No story starts without a main character or main characters, right? And like, when you look at projects, like, who's the main character? Like, I don't know, there's 10,000 of them. So like, what is— what am I watching, right? How am I going to watch this? But with Little Sins, the reason I chose that first was there's 7 main characters. They're the original sins. You already, like, you already know who they are. If I tell you the character's name is Pride, you already know half of his per— like, you know he's a prideful person, right? If I say, oh, this character's name is Wrath, like, you already get it. It already, like, basically what that does is it takes a lot of work away from me. Like, I don't have to create a brand new character and get you to know them. I've got 7 characters that you already know, and now I can use what you know. We call it, it's called mental real estate. And basically a trick is think about everybody out in the world they have like a certain amount of land in their brain, right? Like a certain amount of land, 1 acre of land in their brain. And sometimes there's a word, a story, something that already takes up a little piece of that land, right? It takes up a little bit of real estate. Like there's just words I could say, right? I mean, there's just sayings. You could literally be like, "The girl next door." That's just a saying that everybody's heard before. So why wouldn't I make a movie called "The Girl Next Door," right? Like, it's— that's why, that's why IP works so well. That's why when I say Spider-Man, you already have something in your head, right? I think Goblins is a great example of that. Like, Goblins, you already know what a— like, you get it. Goblins. I think that's one of the best IP plays maybe that's happened in a while. At first I was against it, kind of, but then I was like, man, that's actually kind of genius whether they did that on purpose, because you already know— you bring mental real estate to Goblins. Like, you already unders— you have an idea of Goblins. You've thought of Goblins before. So that's just like a way to like move the ball forward. So Seven Sins, you already know the Seven Sins, right? So imagine the Seven Sins as 7 characters, and it's in the tone of Constantine or Umbrella Academy or Blade. Like, you already see the show, like you get it, right? It's an easy way to get people involved. So I would say to you and any writer, like, yeah, you don't— I'm not saying people can't have community storytelling and Discords and all that awesome stuff because people are doing amazing stuff. Like, I mean, there's projects that I think are out of this world. Nuclear Nerds, Forgotten Runes, you know, these, these are cool, but it doesn't— they don't all have to be that, right? Like, like, why can't you do something different, right? It's called lean forward and lean back, right? So those projects are lean forward, almost like a video game. Like, I'm playing, I'm doing tokens, I'm super interested, I'm involved with story, I'm writing stories. But then there's lean back, which is I just want to chill. Like, I want to buy this collectible, like, see if it turns into a movie. Make some money, and that's it. Like, don't have to think about it, right? I don't, I don't need to think about— I have 92 Discords. Like, I don't want to be involved, right? It's like, so I think you can create a graphic novel, basically take a story, take some characters, create some kind of NFT experience, and that's it. And that's your story. You mint, you mint the collectibles. They're actually collectibles. And then you try to take that concept and option it and license it to film, television, video games, merchandising, whatever, right? But you create the concept and the IP first, right? That's what I'm trying. Again, I don't know if this is going to work or not. I think it will, but we'll see.

I think it will as well. I really do. And the Creative Commons license is really cool as well. I just bought two, they're called Gnomes, Gnomeville. They were like trending today and their whole thing is like, they look like goblins, but they're gnomes. And the whole thing is like, fuck the goblins essentially. And they're like, evil escaped goblins and they turned into gnomes and they're Creative Commons, so I have like full IP over it. So I was, you know, even before this call, I was like, what should I do with it? Like, should I make a story? Should I do something? I'm like, oh, that is so much fun to do.

Here's the tricky part about CC0 though, right? So like, if you're, if you're creating CC0 and using that IP again for yourself and for Web3 native like stuff, like if you're going to create a story and like sell it to other Web3 people, and it's going to live in a sort of Web3 ecosystem, like distribution and stuff, like, that will work. Here's the problem: if you create a project that's CC0, or take one of your CC0 projects, it will never work in the real world, right? Hollywood will never touch that, right? Like, like, it is going to be so— everyone, you know, like, even Bored Apes, which I love, like, it is going to be so far down the road before Hollywood will make a real movie because they can't, right? Until— until the only way I see it happening is if Bored Ape becomes so popular, right? Like Angry Birds. Angry Birds used to be— it was downloaded like 300 million times a month. 300 million. You know how many people know about Bored Apes? Like half a million, a million maybe, tops. So until it become— if it becomes 300 million and everyone in the world knows it, sure, Hollywood will figure it out. But right now Why would— if I'm Netflix, why would I spend $50 million to make a movie about this Bored Ape when this other guy could sell his Bored Ape to Warner Brothers and then they could make a movie and you'd compete? So CC0 is pretty much a non-starter for major studios. So if you have a CC0, like if you created the greatest story ever about your goblin or whatever, nobody's going to touch it because 9,000 other people could compete. Could sell it to the competing studio, right? So you have to remember where you want to live. Like, are you trying to make it in like sort of mainstream Hollywood or live in Web3? I think Web3 is where most people should focus. Like, there's a ton of cool new platforms coming. There's like ways to make money. There's a great ecosystem that's growing. And so it's like sometimes like, just like forget Hollywood. Like, not every project has to be like a big show on Netflix. Like, that's what I want, but it doesn't have to be for everybody. Like, create cool stuff. There's these cool platforms. You could make money. You could tell stories. And maybe one day your project becomes so big that Hollywood will come. Hollywood always chases eyeballs and money, right? They'll come if you have enough people and make enough money. They'll, they'll come to you. But like, I think people, they get muddled because it's like they want to do both. And I would say pick a lane and build your project towards that goal. And then if the other, if the other goal happens, like, that's fine. But like focus on one thing and just like nail that. Right.

Facts, facts. I, um, yeah, I think for the gnomes, little goblin story, it'd be fun just to release some stories like on my, uh, like I run a newsletter. If I, if I do like a partner website or just on my website and kind of share that with my friends, like that's just fun, you know? Like I will have a good time doing that if I don't make money. Like, eh, I might like, you know, people be like, oh, he can write stories as well. That's cool. And that's 100%, that's all I need from that. Um, but I do also want to talk about, uh, the idea that like an NFT community like Lil Sense and seeing people get involved with that is like a proof of concept showing like, hey, people already dig it. Like if, if a studio wants to come and buy stuff, like, like a lot of times they're kind of guessing, right? But like people, they could see all over the place people are into it and people already paid money. I just think that's That's— yeah, it's epic. It's, it's gonna be— a lot of people are gonna be doing that.

Yeah, I think that's the way. To me, you know, I, I think there's, there's two ways to cross over to Hollywood. It's either bring a really large audience or bring a really high concept, right? So basically, if you, if you have a low concept but you have a massive audience, Hollywood will be interested, right? So if like, if like, if, if millions and millions of people are buying your thing but the concept itself isn't like perfect for a show, but it's like, yeah, it's okay, but you have millions and millions of people that love it, they'll come for you. If you have a high concept, a concept that just is absolutely a show or a movie, the audience doesn't actually have to be that big, right? Like, the audience can actually be pretty small because it's the concept that matters, right? So it's one of those two things. And, and the bigger your audience, the less concept you need, and vice versa, right? So if you have a super high concept you can have less audience, right? And if you have a huge audience, you can have kind of less of a concept. So I'm not, my concept is very high concept, 7 original sins as 7 fallen angels. So I don't really need a big audience. I mean, if I don't at least get, my goal is obviously to mint out, I need like maybe 5,000 to 6,000 Twitter followers that are like really engaged. Um, but that's about it, right? I don't need like 100,000 people, and I don't need all that hype. I just need a small enough group of people that are like, okay, I know who John is, I see what he's doing, I just want to buy one of these things. And they're going to be like cheap. Again, they can't be free because that means people aren't willing to pay for them. Um, but they're going to be like relatively inexpensive. But I'm also like, the, the artist is basically getting like a huge percent. He's a founder. Um, so I'm giving it to him and the devs and all that stuff. Um, so that's all I'm really looking to do is build like between, yeah, 5,000, 6,000 strong followers who engage with the characters, um, who mint this thing out. And then once I have that, I will partner with an A-list producer, which will be very easy. Um, and then we'll go shop it. We'll— and maybe I might package it with a director, an actor potentially. I'm not sure like what package I want to do yet. Um, but then we'll take that package and we'll take it to the studios and then try to sell it, um, as a show, like as we would typically. But this time I think studios will be interested because who doesn't want to be the first major studio to have the— to have that press release that says, you know, new show in development based on NFTs? Because that makes them look cool, right? That makes you— that makes a company like progressive and interesting and kind of like I think they're— I think if they're smart, they'll be like, yeah, fuck, I mean, this, this makes sense as a show, and we can be the first ones to, to like, to be in the Web3 community. So I think there's a lot going for it. I'm very interested to play it all out.

Yeah, I guess what works as well is it'd be a cool show even if there was no NFTs.

Like, that's it.

Yeah, it's, it's— that's what—

that's what every— that's to me, if you want to be— if you want to make it mainstream. That is what you just said, is that is it. If— make sure it works as a show regardless of the NFT, right? It needs to work in Web2 no matter what. Then you just take it and then you build it as an NFT, but it has to work without the NFT.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, yeah, man, I— those were, those were most of the main questions.

Um, nice.

Oh, I guess the last one, it popped in and out of my head. But just kind of like the legal process of, say, partnering with an artist. Say I wanted to go partner with a friend who's an artist. Did you guys form a business or sign a contract or get trademarks? And what's the right way to do that?

Yeah, I mean, the right way is definitely to do all that stuff. I did not, mainly because— just because I'm not like that. I'm not like, there's nothing that can happen that's gonna like bother me that like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, hey, listen, if you're putting all your time and energy and your money into something and you don't want to, you want to really, really protect it, that's, you should absolutely do all of those things. For me, it was, I knew what I wanted to do. I was looking for an artist and I'm a huge fan of Nuclear Nerds and I thought their art, 'cause I didn't wanna do PFPs. That's the second, that's the secondary. Like, I'll— like, that would be— if the first one works, that would be the second drop, would be PFPs. Because the first one is, is Luke, Han, the original Star Wars. The second drop, then you can do Stormtroopers, right? Then you can do like the world. But right now it's just the main characters. I wanted it to be like actual collectibles, like, like, like really awesome art that is like a full-bodied— like buying an action figure, right? Like, that's what I wanted. And I think Adam Archer is just fucking brilliant. So I basically just, I mean, I just DM'd him, was just like, hey man, I love your art. I didn't know if you're, you know, if you're interested in doing any other projects. And we ended up kind of just jamming. And, um, he was, you know, he was interested. And then it was funny because he was kind of like, well, you know, this is my, like, what would be my rate. And, and, you know, because then you would do contracts and all that stuff. And then basically I was like, listen, if this, this is good, this is an NFT project, right? Like, yeah, I'll handle the movie and the TV thing, but, but first we need to make this NFT. And so I was like, you, you, if you will do this, we should be partners. Like, let's be like full— you should be a co-founder, like partner, right? NFTs are about putting spotlight on artists. Um, and so we just became like partners, and so we just made an agreement to each other about being partners. Um, so there's no like, uh, like percent— it's just like we're partners. Um, and so that's, that's really it. Um, but you should definitely do all that legal stuff. Um, trademarks and stuff you don't have to worry about so much. Um, like especially like again for what I'm doing in Hollywood, Nobody does trademarks and copyrights. You can't copyright an idea anyway. Um, so it's kind of, it's kind of waste of time. I know a lot of people worry that their idea is going to get stolen and they copyright their scripts and stuff, but it's just not a real thing.

Got you. I, uh, dude, that idea of mental real estate, I'm gonna keep coming back to that. I've, I've thought of it, but never those words together.

Yeah, think about, I mean, think about literally, but what sometimes what people don't realize is like What is— what takes up people's mental real estate? Because obviously it's all the things you've learned in your life that everyone under— but like sometimes it's literally like sayings, right? Like little— like you'll hear something like, you know, the— an apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Like how many people know that saying? Like hundreds of millions of people, right? So I could come with a project of like app, you know, literally write a short story called The Apple falls too far from the tree, right? Whatever that is, at least you're gonna like— you already— it already takes up— it immediately takes something up in your mind. So that's like a way to help people, right? To like— that's why I think like goblins is really clever because it immediately creates a narrative. Everybody's got a history with goblins, witches, you know, werewolves, these types of things that they work because it takes up mental real estate all over the world, right? Um, so sometimes it's not just like comics and stories. Sometimes it's like a saying, right? Like, it literally can just be, you know, like, you know, the idea of— if I say, like, this is, this is like an easier way to think about it. Like, if I said to you, like, a lawyer, right? If I just said to somebody, like, a lawyer, everybody would immediately be like, lawyer, uh, lawyers are like liars. They're like, you know, oh my god, like, lawyers, lawyers, right? Immediately have all this stuff in their mind, right? And what if I said, okay, it's a lawyer but he can't lie. And then you're like, oh shit, right? And that Liar Liar, it's a great concept, right? It's immediately just two things: lawyer, but he can't lie. And you've already like— the movie's right there, it's in your head, you already like have most of it. So that's a really— I— it's a way I use to like think about concepts before I start a project, because I think what happens most of the time, especially in screenwriting, is people start too fast. Right? Like, the concept is so important. So I try to like put that concept against everything, like make sure that concept just alone in 1 or 2 sentences is easy to understand and easy to market. I could pitch it to you, I could pitch it to someone on the street, and everyone would kind of get it. They'd be like, oh, I get it, right? Like John Wick. How many people know John Wick right now? The entire world knows who John Wick is, right? So when I said John Wick, but a female? It was like, oh yeah, of course, right? It's like, so sometimes it's as simple and as hard as that. And I know a lot of people don't, you know, I've been called a hack many times in my career, which I'm okay with. Because what I find is that the hardest part is getting it done. If I can get something made or sold, then I can write cool, you know, I can put like my heart into it. Do you know what I mean? Like you, but the first thing is getting people to buy into it, right? So if I, If I sell this John Wick with a female and people can be like, oh, what a hacky idea. Sure. But it got sold, right? And it could get made. And then when I'm writing the script, I can make sure the characters talk about the right things. I can make sure there's heart in it and soul and philosophy and my voice and all that stuff, right? I call it Trojan horsing, right? You give them the Trojan horse, right? And they take it. And then inside of it, I got all my stuff, right? All the stuff that's important to me. But you don't know that, right? You're just taking this— this is the horse, the gift. You're like, oh, this is great. Um, so that's just another, another way I approach it.

Yeah, facts.

That's—

man, this has been a great conversation.

Uh, awesome, man.

Yeah, I really appreciate your time.

Yeah, dude, it's super fun. Appreciate it. Keep me posted on everything. Um, obviously any help you can get some eyes on Little Sins, and I'll do the same for you and everything you're doing.

All right, appreciate it.

I appreciate you, man. Later. Bye.