#21: WARHODL - NFT art during the bear market

Just understand the difference of whether you want to be a hobbyist or like make this a professional endeavor.

All right, welcome to another episode of Cyber Patterns. Today we've got Warhatalon. He is one of the most interesting, exciting artists in the space. I'm really excited for this conversation with NFT NYC coming up next week and the bear market going on right now. This seems like a very timely conversation. I hope you enjoy. All right, cool. So I hit recording. I just want to hop into it and ask the important question: when was WarHodl born and how?

So Warahato was born in 2018. I went super deep down the ICO rabbit hole. My background, I grew up painting. I'd co-founded a couple startups by that point. But with the ICO era, I just like— in 2018 specifically, it was the only thing anyone could talk to me about. To the dismay of my girlfriend, my parents, between Bitcoin talk and Discord, I was just like zombie. But there was a night where I said to myself, "Mike, if I could come up with a crypto art concept to receive more crypto, I would be on top of the world." And so that's where I started messing around with different names, landed on one War HODL. Immediately with a brand name, a name, I always check to see if the.com, the socials are available, and it was. Then I started messing around with art concepts and just growing up painting, pop art is— I have such an affinity for. So it just landed on— the first one was Bitcoin Soup, which was a 5x7 painting that I did. On top of an IKEA printed canvas. I spray painted it white and then painted on top. Wow. Yeah.

And how are you— how did you translate that into an NFT?

So the end of 2020, over those years from 2018 to the end of 2020, like it was a hobby at best. I still had a CPG brand that I was running with a friend that I grew up with. And like here and there on the side, I was painting. I tried launching WarHodl anonymously back then. Like it didn't really work. So I was like, whatever, it's just fine if it's a hobby. But a neighbor of mine, he runs the venture arm at Experian. And he retweeted a Fuwoshis video on my personal Twitter. And I was like, what is this? You know, 'cause Fuwo was talking about NFTs. And I was like, holy, like, so I spent a month doing a deep dive pretty much beginning of 2021 and then like February 4th. I minted my first, not even first Soup Can, but I minted like 34 different pieces the first night, because I remember telling myself, I'm like, I don't know what's going to— I don't know if this will work or what will stick.

Yeah, so when did you start seeing momentum with the NFTs?

And this is something I've— been vocal about, especially in the early days on Clubhouse, the next morning I woke up to 2 of my 1 of 1s being sold, and I listed all of those pieces were 1 of 1s, and I listed each one at 1 ETH. The irony of where we're at right now with just the market in general, ETH at the time was 1,700, and that was considered a total win. Uh, got into ETH a lot earlier than that, but, uh, what I did— this was the life hack, or like the growth hack, that I've shared on Clubhouse a ton. The same night that I minted all those pieces, I went on Twitter and like, uh, different artists that I admired, or like different collectors that I respected, I would go through and like their tweets, but I would like the replies to their tweets as well. You know, what that does, you know, on their end from a notification standpoint, like it's almost a ping, you know, and if your profile and like your top tweets or like your pinned tweet has enough that's captivating, like it can lead to, you know, and so The first piece that I sold with no prior contact was to a— his name's Jonathan Hibichi, and he runs a pretty substantial crypto fund out of the UK. And like 2 hours before he bought my piece, he dropped like 28 ETH on like a Hackatau piece, and I was like, got it. It was such a— and so that inbound interest, it was like a reversed inbound interest.

Yeah. No, that's brilliant, that growth hack. I definitely know one of my threads, a couple of them went viral and then I get alerted on some of the comments and it gets annoying, honestly, but I see who it is and who does it. I personally, I send my shit, my threads, whatever I need to send to distribute. So especially in the beginning, that distribution is key.

It is, and there was such a falsehood around, well, you need a following in order to sell. And at that time I had under 100 followers on Twitter at the beginning of 2021, was still able to sell, you know, one of ones for 1 ETH each, you know, like, and ended up selling through those, and like, you know, it grew from there.

Yeah. So I bought one of your pieces, the, uh, The Other Side, the gas fees WTF one. Um, how— I, I forget the exact timing— how soon after, like, the, the Other Side purchase did you post that? Like, you had it up pretty quick if I remember right.

Right, that's the beauty of, I think, NFTs in general. You know, it's ultimately, right, if you zoom out enough, to me it's like NFTs are, they're a function on the blockchain, right? But from a creative standpoint, like from an artist standpoint, you know, which I think very much is one of the first use cases of NFTs as a function, What it allows for is a direct value exchange. So you're able to, on the fly, mint something, and with the real-time connectivity, early days Clubhouse, but now Twitter Spaces, Twitter, you can see that loop is instantaneous. And so I've just, in following certain moments through crypto culture, The gas fees, original gas fees was one of them. The Clubhouse Soup Can that I created. But with Otherside, that was, that was actually a couple weeks after that, the Otherdeeds Saturday, that, that nightmare that we all lived through. To the power of Twitter, uh, someone tweeted at me and said, you should bring this back, but the Yuga version of it, basically.

Nice, nice.

It was the next day after, and then that week, like that following week, I dropped it.

Nice.

And thank you, by the way.

Yeah, of course, of course. I was hyped. I did not have enough ETH for a other side, like a, like a deed or whatever, and I also kind of didn't want one, so I was I was very happy to get what I think of as like a poster, as like, like almost like a concert poster, you know. So I was happy, you know.

These, these soup cans in those specific moments have become mementos in so many ways. But Jason Levin, I'm gonna tell you, you're better off not having got my— after, after gas and everything that night, even being whitelisted, like my sunk cost per, per deed, per plot, it's like 6 ETH. I mean, it's just, it hurts. Yeah, yeah, we're, we're in testing times right now, uh, period.

Yeah, for real. What do you think is, uh, is coming in the future?

Really, I like, I woke up earlier today than I have in a long time, just like mind racing. My first startup out of college that I did, that I co-founded, was a nightlife app. The CTO at the time introduced me to Bitcoin pretty early and then did a sit-down, a 2-hour sit-down right before ETH launched. I've lived through moments like highs and lows completely within the space, but the addition of NFTs I think is interesting where already hype and buzzwords are on their way out. But moving forward, I mean, it's just— everyone says in the crypto world and the NFT world, one day feels like a month, or one day feels like a week, or however long. I think with everything we're enduring right now, that time will slow down. It's just getting people to think twice. But I remember something I heard really early on in the NFT space, Don Diablo said it, uh, in a Clubhouse room, and it was, you need to understand whether you're a professional, whether you're operating as a professional, or you're a hobbyist expecting professional results. So like, people dabbling and hoping that, you know, on hopium, then this will probably be like, you know, long-term detrimental. Like, I'd say, uh, maybe for you and I, it's like, if I feel it, you still feel it, like it, it can throw you off mentally, but like, it's not like, you know, black swan per se. So long story short, like, where does it go? I think it gets back to true building and less shininess.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I, I know I personally, I also woke up kind of, kind of fritzy, um, but yeah, I, I mean, I don't have all my, all my money invested in it, you know. I, I feel, I feel okay, uh, and I, I definitely, I'm not trying to do any, any trades or anything. I'm really just, I want to stack ETH and like stack some Bitcoin as well and just hold onto it as the network effects take hold over the next few years. What goes up must come down, what goes down must come up. So I'm just going to wait it out. That's kind of the plan.

Jason Levin And when you think about the space that we're operating in and creating in, having come from the world of startups, It's like there's always— I feel like there's two different modes. One is proof of concept, finding proof of concept, and then two is scaling. And we're way past the proof of concept stage for crypto, for NFTs. Um, you know, projects will come and go, but it's about the scaling part of it all. And like, I just None of this deters me to like go somewhere else. Like, I'm too enamored by the space. I'm like, I also remember when like the total market cap of crypto was $300 billion across every token. So like, I don't know, just it depends on perspective and like how closely you're looking at any one, um, time window. Are you like— yeah, I'll go for it.

No, I was just gonna ask, are there any big art projects or new pieces that you're working on specifically?

So having come from like the physical world of things, right, like started painting these soup cans on canvas in 2018, um, plus just last Last April, this past April, I did a giant 6-foot-tall physical aluminum shell soup can for Bitcoin 2022. There's something about see it, feel it, touch it. I've created physical products in my past. There's something about that that I love. Like even for NFT NYC coming up, which, you know, everyone's like, what will that be like? What I'm doing, you know, instead of trying to be super structured over those days, like there's a couple of events that I'm involved with, but like I'm rolling around with a portable screen printer and I'm doing on canvas, like on the spot screen printing. Pieces of art. Like, so just— and I know you said big, um, there's some collab opportunities with like known organizations like outside of crypto where for me is like a pop artist, it would, it would bridge from maybe decentralized pop artists to like also cultural pop artists. And this year, that's a big focus of mine.

Yeah, that's really cool.

It intrigues, you know, but it's something that I've just like— because I grew up painting like as a kid and like, and in high school I shadowed under Mad Steeze. Like, I've like just had a pulse on it or been involved with like the creative realm, like learned graphic design in middle school, like It's just always been there. And I think to cross that bridge as an artist into true— I might have my pulse on one of the bigger auction houses this year. There's certain things that it's not needed per se, but as a stamp, to get that stamp as an artist would be cool. Um, anything that I was planning bigger on like an NFT front, like let's say collectible series or, you know, of course PFP, like I was mentally just hiatus for a second, you know, to, to see how this plays out for a while.

Yeah, yeah, facts. So for, for artists trying to, I don't know, just get into NFTs right now or coming up in it right now, would you tell them to kind of hold off on big projects or, or just focus on, on staying, you know, staying liquid?

To me, like, what we're, what we're rolling through right now is more or less a crossroads. And that's where I think You go back to that notion of just understand the difference of whether you want to be a hobbyist or like make this a professional endeavor. On my end, like from, from that standpoint, like I'm scaling, I'm scaling into a startup outside of my artist persona in this space. I'm like, that's what I'm like truly focused on. I think as an artist, like if you're just discovering NFTs or like you finally have, even in this crazy market, like have the gumption to mint your first piece, putting it out there with the expectation of like, uh, I just want to gather collectors, not necessarily all the ETH up front, you know, because you can do pieces like I wouldn't be deterred just because, uh, the values are quote unquote down. Like, again, having minted those first pieces when ETH was at $1,700, like, I didn't think anything about the ETH price. Like, it just, it just, it was what it was, you know? And like, it growing from there, like, um, for, for much of that time, like, awesome. But Ultimately, again, like for the creative industry, NFTs, it can become a gateway. Like we've seen it change so many lives around us, but in simplest terms, like it's another medium and it would be wrong, it would be ill-advised to not explore this medium.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that. I have, I have a old friend who was a film photographer and just refused, refused to check out NFTs. He's a damn good photographer. I was like, man, there's some photography NFTs trending, like, you know, if you want to give it a try, but refused, and it's silly.

You know, and John Knopf is like a homie, and I just, I remember seeing the photography movement, like, take shape on Clubhouse, but like, it didn't used to be a thing, and then it quickly became a very big thing. And like, look at Twin Flames, obviously, like with Justin Levin. But to your point, somewhere in the creative community, like the IRL creative community, like NFTs were like painted in a really negative light I don't know where exactly. I do feel like at some level it's a groupthink, whether it's like, oh, what's the website? Art News, or if agency people like NFTs, I don't know. But there's enough really talented creatives like your friend who are just so anti, I think, without much or without strong reasoning.

Yeah. I mean, it definitely takes a level of open-mindedness to think about digital ownership.

Well, and so that's the flip side, just to have humility with it too. Crypto's very daunting. The amount of steps, the learning curve, is there's a steep learning curve and sharp cliffs.

Yeah, yeah, that's a crazy mental model to think about. Yeah, I know, yeah. Just to, I don't know, if you're posting a photo on Facebook, you just make an account, post a photo, and then minting something on OpenSea, you gotta make a wallet, you gotta boom, boom, boom, boom. And that's—

I feel so grateful or fortunate, and I'm grateful that like, especially with the ICO era, right, going in between exchanges and all that, and like, uh, my Ether wallet, so pre-MetaMask, like figuring all that out back then in a big way where it's like that month after I discovered NFTs, it was more just like understanding the lay of the land, but not necessarily having to learn the steps. I was able to hit the ground running because of past crypto experience, where if you're an artist and you heard about it from another artist, yeah, that could be rough for sure.

Jason Levin Fair enough, fair enough. And, um, yeah, are there any other artists that you're watching out for?

I mean, of course, right? Uh, I think in the— you know, there's so much that for me harkens back to the Clubhouse era and like And there's— couldn't tell you why, but so many of like the artists I connected with back then have also, uh, since then have done like more of the immersive drops or just really well-structured projects since. Like, you know, I, I could think of like a Thank U, X, or like Cory VanLouw. Like what Fuckbrender is doing with like his own metaverse essentially is incredible. Um, but then there's also like, you know, Gabe Weiss is, is the homie, um, Sabat, like, and then you see new artists. Um, I think what like the The new artists that I'll discover on Twitter, it's really cool. Like, Twitter's become such a big tool for— I mean, obviously there's Crypto Twitter, but also NFT Twitter. Um, part of it is it is overwhelming with, like, you know, from a PFP standpoint, can definitely say this, but there is so much being minted daily, right? Like, and you only have so much bandwidth. So that's, that's the flip side of all of it. Like, with you creating content, like, you know, how you both, you know, on the news side plus the podcast side, like, I don't know how you're not like overwhelmed 24/7.

I am, I am. Yeah, yeah, I am, uh, constantly overwhelmed. But it's, I don't know, it's more fun, uh, especially, yeah, like today I had to cancel like 2 meetings for this Celsius story for The Defiant. Um, it's, it's just such a wreck and like trying to understand what was going on there. Um, but you know, so it goes. It's just another day in crypto world.

It is, but we're doing this podcast through like an era where— in that era can maybe be weeks long, ideally weeks long, not longer. But, you know, with Luna and then now like seemingly Celsius, I mean, the macro environment's one thing, like it's always been, right? Cryptos live through election cycles and all that. But yeah, Celsius last night, do you feel like with what you've been able to understand, like the, the other shoe's about to drop, or do you feel they can avoid crashing on the runway?

I don't know. I wish— like, I, I'm not gonna even make like some educated guess. Like, you— I'm, I'm not sure. They just, uh— so from what I understand, it's, it's basically like a bank run, you know, like They staked their Ethereum and they took a lot out, or they staked the Ethereum that people like you and I and users gave them. And then Ethereum goes down, they lose the money, and people want their money back, just like the 1920s with Great Depression and shit. And then when people come running for the bank, they got to shut down the bank. So hopefully— Great Depression, they closed the banks for 7 days.

So we'll see how long Celsius is closed for the transferring out to FTX right before freezing. Doesn't help. No, you know, optically.

Yeah, and Mashinsky is shady from like just his interactions on Twitter.

Like, it— I was listening in a Spaces earlier today and, um, one of the guys was saying, he's like, the irony of founders just going super cocky right before, like with the tweets that Joe Kwon did and Mashinsky. Like, he, I guess, did tweeted something a few days ago that was like, try me. And like, Justin Sun last night was like, I'm gonna destroy the short sellers. Like, I just, you know, facepalm almost.

Yeah, I think, uh, Tron is that next one that to really—

I, I messaged one of my biggest early collectors today. He's got like 15 of my pieces, um, and he out the gate, like since I met him early last year, he was just shouting Celsius from the mountaintop, and he commissioned Celsius soup cans from me. Um, and then I looked back at our DMs this morning, and a month ago he was saying how Luna is gonna flip like all these different alts. Like, that was the latest one he was super hyped about, and I was like, oh God. And so I messaged him today, I'm like, are you okay? And he pretty much had like everything in Celsius.

Oh.

Yeah, including like his family. And I'm like, he's like, I don't know what the status is. And he lost a quarter of his net worth in Luna. I'm like, fuck, I felt for him. I feel for him.

Yeah, of course. I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's one thing to like, I don't know, lose your play around money. It's another to lose, uh, your, your real, like, your family money or like, you know, that's a lot of money. So So it goes. But that's—

yeah, that's like, I got my parents into Bitcoin early enough where— and I managed it for them. Like, I gave them the Bitcoin, so I'm like, don't think about it for a long time. And like, you know, there's no pressure on my end of how it performs.

Yeah, no, that, that's, that's amazing. I, um, Yeah, my stepdad's been getting into it, uh, which has been fun to see. Um, my dad though has no idea what it is, just like no idea what I do for a living. Like, just not— he couldn't, he couldn't tell somebody like internet magician.

Yeah, but that's as we were talking about, like, you know, the, um, entry into NFTs, like in general, crypto and the NFT space, this is such a foreign language ultimately that we're able to speak to each other, but to the outside world, it's like, "You what? What are you talking about?" Yeah.

Yeah. I was telling my girlfriend about airdrops. The idea of an airdrop is just insane to people who aren't in crypto. I mean, it is kind of insane to me and I'm in crypto, but I just got sent like $300, I don't know why, but here it is, just happy, it's wild.

I will never forget being at lunch with my mom and telling her the value of the M2 serum that I have, that I was airdropped from Bored Apes. And I'm like, this JPEG, it was airdropped, like it's valuable. She's like, pretty much her response was like, just be safe, have fun. Like, you know, like concerned mother, but not like sure what to do about it.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at some point it's like, it's past, it's past us. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and so you, you do these podcasts, is it one a week?

Yeah. So I typically do one a week. Um, It's almost— I might start dropping two just because I've been having some really badass guests on, uh, people like yourself. And I got a couple, couple awesome ones coming up. So, um, yeah, it might be going two times a week now. We'll see.

So, I mean, if, if your post-editing or post-production is not too intensive, like, and schedule permits, I mean, why not?

Yeah, exactly. I figure why not. I've been, uh, I just experimented with, uh Like when, so I write weekly essays and I'm doing my, having my first guest post this Wednesday, which is kind of cool. It's like, wow, like somebody's helping me on and like writing their essay, like for my Substack. Like, that's crazy. Like that's leverage that I just like didn't really understand until I saw it just happen. And it was like, that's cool.

And it, from a brand standpoint, it's It's what then makes like what you're doing become larger than yourself and like larger than life almost.

Yeah, nobody wants to buy a one-person business, you know, if you can't replace yourself. Yeah, but we'll see what happens. I'm having fun. I'm not even thinking about that stuff right now.

I was gonna say, no, but just like it in the brand association to like the guest post, I think that's a really Great idea. Yeah, man. Back when you say writing essays, like, did you fuck with like WordPress and Blogspot back in the day? Or like, yeah, you did Medium and—

oh yeah, yeah. So I, 2016, I ran a music blog with like some homies from college. And so we interviewed some, you know, semi-famous indie musicians and, and just wrote up on— and that was on WordPress. And then I wrote a blog on Medium and wrote there and experimented. And then once Substack came out, this is the first time that thing is like Substack plus Twitter combined and crypto, my work has actually progressed and done well. It took a lot of variations of writing. I mean, I was an English major. I've been writing forever. So I'm fortunate the way that it's worked out now.

Well, it's a very strong common interest to have with someone, meaning crypto. But yeah, like from the early days, I started checking Hacker News pretty much daily, um, and it seems still like, like Substack was such a turning point. I mean, Medium, sure, but like Substack has definitely made a mark.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a lot of fun. It's, I'm very grateful. It's changed my life and will continue to improve my life drastically as I hope. So good. Yeah.

Well, and that's like you said it, the multiple variations to be here thus far. It, what that means is like you didn't give up or like you didn't do a U-turn. Just continuing to, that's like the biggest. Like, I've failed in my startups in the past, like I've gotten lucky in the past, um, but it's like the one thing I always told myself, even when I felt lost, like in the NFT space, it's like, I'm not gonna do a U-turn, like I'm not gonna give up, like it's just you continue forward and, and like keep exploring, or like, you know, just not losing your pulse on something just because of feeling deterred. Uh, at the moment.

Yeah, 100%. Just iterations. Uh, like that's how I think about it. Like if I lined up every project over the last few years of my life, it's just like they continuously get better. Like, you know, it's kind of up and down and up and down, but, but overall up like that Jack Butcher design, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

It's just fun.

It's true. Like the NFT space, like, you know, so After startups, I ended up as creative director for Hyundai and Kia. So for a couple of years, like what you saw in dealerships, like that messaging, just like brand consistency across the board. Like, cool, I'm glad I tried corporate America. I felt like every day I was living in the office or office space, like The movie is one of the episodes. And then went back to launching product mode, largely operating on Shopify. It's with the NFT space, it's the most like free I've ever felt as a creative. And again, it harkens back to that, what I call like the direct value exchange. Happening in real time. And also, like, you know, because again, NFTs will permeate far beyond the creative community, um, in my opinion, just based on what the functionality is. But, uh, in the meantime, like, within the, within the creative community, like, it's the most connected I've ever felt to fellow creatives. Like, usually, like, What happened was, in my view, it's gone from competition to collaboration. And that's because of Web3, the blockchain, et cetera. You're no longer fighting for that one gig that the agency has an opening for. You can build in tandem, side by side, you name it. And just that connectivity alone over the last, gosh, 2 years now, that's so special because in so many years of being a professional creative, if you will, I'd never felt that.

Yeah. I mean, I completely agree. Web3 people are just so nice. And I went to college as an English major and people would just rip your writing apart and not in like a helpful way and just like very critique and not like, it's just not helpful. Just more like the professors want to show that like, they know what they're talking about. And then you get to Web3 and like CEOs and big writers are reading my work and loving it. And it's like, what the hell was I doing there? Like, people are just so much nicer when they're all trying to build, 'cause like we're all trying to do this together. I guess wag me kind of. Kind of philosophy, but yeah, right.

It's a completely different approach where it didn't take you doing anything much different. However, it's just like plugging it into, you know, like same with my art, like plugging it into more of a like aligned outlet, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Midjourney for both of us.

Oh yeah, yo, on that note, I gotta take my dog out, uh, he's, he's getting antsy. But it was great chatting, man, had a lot of fun.

Likewise, I appreciate it.

All right, stay well.

And I appreciate you being a collector, Jason Levin Levin.

Thank you. All right, peace. Ciao.