#70: Dani Grant - Developer Marketing Explained

No part of me wants to post on the internet. Irdifa just like stared into my soul and was like, if you don't do this, you're letting me down. You're letting your team down. There's no one else. You have to do this.

Been tweeting half my life. I looked the other day, like Twitter, you know how it shows your like join date? I was 13. I'm 26.

Oh my God, that's insane. We got some feedback. People were super excited. We launched on Product Hunt. Thousands of people signed up and no one used it.

I was like spending a lot of time just riding the subway. Like it just did not feel feel good. It was not a good use of time, Dani.

This is so cool because usually when you podcast, you podcast with strangers. But this time it's like we've been building Jamf together for a year at least, 2 years. And so it'll be cool to actually just talk about what it's been like and what we've learned.

Yeah, 100%. I've been enjoying having people that I already know on. It's like a different feel for myself and the audience. It's just shooting the shit, which is, I really enjoy doing that. So let's shoot the shit.

Let's do it.

The other day we were messaging and you mentioned that marketing is a dirty word to developers. Why is that? And how do you get over that?

What's the secret?

How do we do that?

Do you know who Seth Godin is?

Yeah.

Yeah. I, he's one of my favorite, like, business thinkers. I just, I love his books. I love his blog. I listen to every podcast he goes on. Like, I'm just a super fan. And what he says is good marketing is one of the most generous things you can do because you're in service of others and your, your main goal in marketing is to help people change their lives. So someone over here has like built some product. They've like built some valuable thing, but no one knows about it. And so in order for that valuable thing to change someone's life, there needs to be marketing in the middle. And so what does a great marketer do? A great marketer helps someone change their life for the better. And so like, that's an amazing and beautiful thing. But most of the time when that is actually happening, we don't realize that it's marketing. It's very invisible because great marketing is a great user experience. It feels like a slide. You don't have to think about the steps in between. But bad marketing, you realize it's happening. And so often it becomes like a dirty word. That's especially true for developers because developers are making a different type of purchase decision than the rest of us. So like, okay, if I'm a consumer and I'm buying like a toothbrush, getting that wrong is fine. Like I can buy another toothbrush, even if I'm buying expensive software, like I can switch software, but developers are making long-term purchase decision that the rest of their team and company has to depend on. And so they really need to be able to trust what they're getting and to fully understand the landscape. And so for them, things that feel cheap, things that feel like lies, things that feel like they're hiding something are especially bad. And so I think marketing gets a bad rap with devs, but it's because when you see marketing, it means that it spoke at you, it tried to hide something, it was just bad.

100%. Yeah, that was the big realization for me is realizing marketing is just helping people. Like when I grew up, I wanted to be in marketing. And then as I got older, I was like, oh no, marketing is like so scammy, so capitalist. You know, I was, I was a, I was a bit of a hippie in college. You might not know this, Danny, but I was like, yeah, marketing is a dirty word. And then, um, I realized like, oh, marketing is just like telling people about your product. And if your product is cool, it's not scammy. Um, and so if you believe in your product and if you believe it can really help people, like you're really just like helping them change your lives, which is exactly what you said. Like you're just helping them get from point A to point B. And I think like really when you like truly believe in your product and what you're doing, like self-promo doesn't feel bad.

I think that's— Okay. Self-promo always feels bad. Human nature is—

I love self-promo.

Okay.

I love it.

It's like this. It's like, There are people in the world who go paragliding. Is that the right— it's the thing where you have wings and you jump off a cliff. Is that the right word?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so I'm sure that paragliding is really, really fun, but the moment that you're standing at the top of the mountain and you're about to take a step off and you're looking down and that's a big drop, no part of your brain is like, this is a great idea. That's the part of your brain that's like, oh, holy shit. And I think that's sort of like what the self-promotion feeling is, is when you do it, you're like, I've been told my whole life to be really humble. On the other hand, I've got this amazing team over here. They've worked so hard and I want to shout out what they're doing. But the part of my brain that's like, don't let my friends see me say, you know, big things is like so there. And so I think there's this really interesting, like, I don't think it's like, I think it's very unnatural and it's really hard to do. So when we started working together, it was like the beginning. We had just done this like 6 months, stabilize the product. So we're ready to grow. Cause we had just like sort of realized we had product market fit, but it was like duct taped together. We had to make it stable before we could grow it. And Irdifa and I were talking, how should we grow this thing? And Irdifa was like, you know, you should like, be online and talk about the problem space and our product and what we're solving. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like no part of me wants to post on the internet. And that's why you have co-founders to push you to do the things that are important that you don't wanna do. And Erdifa just like stared into my soul and was like, if you don't do this, like you're letting me down, you're letting your team down. There's no one else, you have to do this. And he's right. And so we made a deal. And the deal was I would post on LinkedIn and Twitter every single business day for 6 months. And we would not question it until 6 months in, And at the 6-month mark, then we could abandon it, but we would keep going for 6 months. And in that 6 months, I met more of our users than we'd ever met. Like we met each other through that. Like so many amazing things have happened because of that. But let me tell you just how on edge I felt that first week, 2 weeks. I was like, this is so cringe. It feels wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, maybe I've just been making content since I was a little kid. And so just like, because you're Gen Z, I guess. Yeah. Like if you look through my YouTube, not this YouTube, but like my hidden YouTube, right? It's like me as a little kid, like dancing and doing silly things. Like it's just, you know, I've been doing this for so long that it's like, I don't know. I just, I've been tweeting half my life. I looked the other day, like Twitter, you know how it shows your like join date. I was 13, I'm 26. Like, yeah.

Oh my God, that's insane.

It's crazy. But yeah, I think, uh, it's really cool to me to hear that, that there's been so much growth, like, uh, around content, around talking online. I think nailing the voice, uh, is, is, is very challenging. Um, and it's interesting, like, when I set out to do my voice, like, I actually thought about it. I wrote down that I wanted to be seen as unhinged. Because I thought that was an interesting— Mission accomplished. Yeah, 100%. And like Mark Manson, he says, you know, he wrote The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Like, that was a very purposeful decision. He didn't just randomly do that. Like, he purposely chose that because it stands out. And, you know, I chose kind of what I wanted people to get from it, right?

Yes. And we do it in the— in our company as well. Like, different products, different brands have different ways of speaking to their users. And if it's not a deliberate decision, then you still have a voice, just it's not deliberate. And so it's a moment where you get to choose how do we want to speak? And when I think—

You're so good at it. We'll come up with ideas and you're like, Jason, this is too fuckboy. Like this is, that's basically what you're saying is like, no, no, but it's like, this is too like, you know, cocky VC, like Jason Levin-ish. I'm like, ah, yeah, you're probably right. I sound like an asshole.

That's actually an interesting thing of working together is having to calibrate because yeah, the, I think people can like, like if I took your phone for a day and I was texting your friends back on your behalf, They would know it's not you. Something would just feel wrong. Yeah. And I think that's the same with brands and people and like, even if you don't know the person, you have a feeling for what they sound like and you can tell when it's not them.

Yeah. Yeah. I really think, yeah, it's, it's taught me a lot working together. It's, it's been quite fun. Um, I'm curious, any, any advice for people building in public? I think this is another thing that you've just like reminded me so much about is just giving value and like so many things from the slide decks you share to threads to sharing your cold email templates. Like there's a lot of work that goes into into stuff, you know, like we put in a lot of work on this stuff and I think it's paying back. And so a lot of people who listen to this are founders, maybe they're indie hackers, you know, hoping to launch on Product Hunt. Yeah, any tips for building in public in general?

I think one of the most incredible parts of our industry is how open people are to sharing their learnings with each other. It's really unique and it's really special. When I was in college, I was really into photography. I thought I would grow up to be like a fashion photographer. And I went to school at NYU, so I was in New York City, and I would like cold email designers and ask them like, do they need a photographer for anything? And I got so many cool opportunities from that. And like one of the ones that I would love is sometimes I'd get sent to sit in the pit at the end of the runway for New York Fashion Week to take photos for the designer, 'cause everyone else there taking photos is for a publication. So I'd be like the photographer the designer would send for that. And in the pit, The photographers are not nice to each other. They, if you are even slightly in someone's space or someone was about to set up where you just decided to be, like, it's just, it's not camaraderie. And it's because the photography industry is shrinking. Only one photo, the first one to make it out is gonna be the one that circulates. And it's not an industry that has abundance. And so photographers are not sharing opportunities with each other, at least not what I saw. But in software, it's the opposite. It's a growing market. There's so much abundance, there's so much to do, and we're all sort of relying on each other. Like, 'What you build helps me do my job better' is like the vibe between tools and product companies. And so there is so much sharing and it is so awesome. One of the things that was really helpful for us to figure out what we should be sharing is first doing the thing that doesn't scale, which is just meeting users one-on-one. So every time we would travel, we would reach out to a handful of users in that city and we'd sit down with them and we just talk to them. And the best part of that is they're builders over there building their companies, we're builders over here building ours. And so we would trade like, things that we're learning. And so we sort of started to get a feel of like, what's the most valuable for us to learn from them and vice versa. And that became the thing that we got to share kind of broader on the internet.

Yeah. People always say, talk to your users and creators should talk to their followers or audience as well. And I respond to every single email reply that I get from my newsletter and every single like Slack message in my community, every single thing on Twitter, like I will respond to everyone from the person with 3 followers to 3 million. I just want to talk and get to hear your thoughts. And I don't know, I think valuing that is really, really helpful. I've learned so much about how to do Twitter from talking to people and meeting people. So yeah, I love that.

Ivana has a great way of saying this. She says like, DevRel is just becoming internet friends with your users. And there's something to that.

There is, there is, there definitely is. Like, internet friends changed my life. I, I will say that 100%. Um, and I feel like a lot of marketing right now, a lot of organic marketing is becoming internet friends and building, building a community, but it doesn't like have to be, you know, some Slack community. It doesn't have to be some whatever community. It's just online community on social media and just meeting people. It's really powerful. I also want to talk a little bit about iteration. So prior to getting into startups, like, I didn't realize how much startups iterated. I always saw it like, oh, like, you know, it's, this is it. Let's go build this thing. Right. So how much do startups really iterate?

So that's, that's like, that's the conception I had too. And I'd spent my whole career in and around startups just at later stages. So before Jamf, I was a VC at Union Square Ventures, but investing mostly in Series A companies. They were post-product market fit. And before that, I was a product manager at Cloudflare. And at the time, they were 130 people. Like, they were clearly past product market fit. And so I didn't actually know what happens before that. I thought you just build a product and then you just work on scaling it forever and like adding features. And so my co-founder and I, Irtifa and I, started the company. And we thought this is just going to be like when we were product managers together at Cloudflare. We were going to Talk to users, build what they want, launch it, and then keep adding features and keep adding users and grow a team and do that. And we interviewed 50 users. We built a prototype. We got some feedback. People were super excited. We launched on Product Hunt. Thousands of people signed up and no one used it. We're like, that's weird. Let's try it again. And so we made a couple changes, then we did the whole thing again. And like, still like lots of signups, but no usage a week later. And we're like, oh my God, like we're used to like Cloudflare, you like launch something the next day, like 10,000 people use it. Like what's happening? And so then we started down the rabbit hole of like startup wisdom on the internet. And we learned that that's actually the default experience of building a startup is that you have to iterate to get there because the bar for someone to change their behavior and make their life temporarily worse because they have to learn a new tool is just so darn high that the product market fit has to be sort of perfect. It's not enough just to get like close. You have to iterate until it's like exactly the thing. And that was a big learning.

Yeah. Do you recommend going really wide or just like really narrow first and then iterating? Like I was on the phone with somebody earlier who's building a consumer social app at University of Michigan, right? And he was like, do we try to get 50,000 kids or do we just like nail like a couple college clubs first?

Seth Godin, again, great advice. He has the rule of 10 test. And this test says, if you give this product to 10 people, do they tell another person about it? And if the 10 people don't spread it to more people, then no, you, you don't show it to anyone else. It's not there yet. But if the 10 people becomes 11, 15, 20, 100, now you've got something that's going to spread like wildfire. And so that, that 10 test is very, very helpful. You can do it at the idea stage. So if you tell 10 people your startup idea and they don't tell anyone else, don't build it. And you can also do it at the prototyping phase where, hey, I've got this app, give it to 10 people. And if they're trying to share it with more people, great, it's ready to go. And if not, then not yet. We do this for our beta testing internally. So right now we're building something brand new at Jamf. Nothing like it has ever been built in the world. And so we're doing the product market fit dance again. And the way that we're doing it is we give it to 10 beta testers at a time and we see, do they try to spread it to others? And that's it. That's the whole test. And it takes a ton of time. Like, why would we open it up to thousands if we know we get one shot at a first impression and we know it's not going to hit?

Yes. Yes.

I love it.

I want to talk about creator marketing. So, uh, Jam brought on the amazing Ian.

Um, he's incredible. He's out of this world.

Incredible. Um, the video creator and, uh, the, the stories he tells, like high level, um, of, of craft has just impressed me since day one of him starting to work with us. And what was the thought process around, around, around bringing on Ian and, and where do you kind of see that going?

He is so, so, so good. It's crazy. Most marketing teams have a designer. Our marketing team has a video creator because Jamf is not a static thing. We're not selling Salesforce. It's not about fancy graphics. It's about building trust, builders to builders. Like, developers need to know that they can trust our product and company for the next 10 years, that they can bring it into their organizations, that they can build processes around it. And they cannot do that if they don't see what's happening behind the scenes and how we're building for them. And so the best creative asset that we can deliver as a marketing team is video. We've got to share from us to them what's happening. And so that's why instead of a designer on our marketing team, we have Ian.

I love it. I, um, yeah, there's this study where trust is a lot higher over video than, you know, audio, which is higher than text message, right? And video is just a fantastic way to do that. And you think about it, you get to spend some time talking to somebody or viewing their face or whatever it might be. Um, Yeah, I'm really excited for what he's been doing. Speaking of going inside of Jamf, inside of building a company, the Jamf team has been doing something which I personally have really never seen any startup do, which is a Building Jamf podcast where it's like the team does a podcast every week and talks about what it's like going inside of building inside of Jamf, right? I went on recently. Go check out that episode. Definitely check it out. We'll link below.

It was a really good episode.

I, yeah, it was, it was fun. So yeah, I would love to hear the thought process around that and should, should more startups do that? I, I love it personally.

So, do you know what Gimlet Media is?

Gimlet? No, I feel like I've heard the name, but no.

You totally heard the name. It was a podcast production company that was acquired by Spotify like 5 years ago.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. When they started the company, it was an NPR producer who left. NPR and started his own podcast company. And the first podcast to ship out of that new company was called Startup. And the first season of Startup is actually cataloging what it's like to build this podcast company. And it's so raw. He records the equity split conversation with his co-founder. He records his investor meetings. He's like messing up. He's like bad at pitching VCs and it is recorded. And you are just going through every step of the process with him. That first season of Startup is my favorite podcast. Podcast of all time. It's 10 years old now, but it's the thing, like, it is the piece of like startup media that I think is just, it's gold. And so that's where this comes from. We wanted to do that. That is such a special connection to have with a company. So we were walking around at our last team offsite in Bogotá, Colombia, international team. And we were just like riffing while on this like walking tour and the idea came up and we did the first episode live from Bogotá. And the rest is history. We've changed the format a little bit. So we used to do like internal team challenges only, like here's what we're literally working on this week. But then we started doing something different. And that's where you came in. We now, you know, like founders will do a lot of advice conversations with other founders or like operators, like you're just, there's a lot of startups spreading wisdom between each other, but it's always off the record. And so we decided to just do the advice conversations we would normally do. But hit record. And it's literally like, we're like, hey, this is our big challenge. What should we do? What would you advise? Any feedback here? And it's been really amazing. So, like, one thing that happened that was really cool last week is one of the episodes we did is we brought in Lizzie Siegel, who's an incredible DevRel at Cloudflare, and to give us advice on how we should— like, I think, like, if I were to assess how we're doing at DevRel, it's like we're engaging with our current users, but we don't go big and, like, spread to the rest of the dev community. We're like, how should we get the word out? And we were just riffing on DevRel ideas. And she was like, should your swag be Venus flytraps? Because they eat bugs too. Last week we bought 50 Venus flytraps. We handed them out at our first hackathon this weekend. They were a hit. And I want us to be known as the company that's always at all the conferences handing out little bug-eating plants. And so anyway, the podcast has been awesome and stuff is starting to happen from it. And that's been really cool too.

Yeah, I love how we're able to do so many creative, weird ideas. Like, I ate jam, ate 8 packets of jam for everybody who followed the Jam account, and that actually got us users. You know, probably didn't move the needle too, too much, but like, it definitely hurt my stomach a little, not gonna lie, but it was worth it. You know, those pictures, I will— so much fun. Like, we've been able to do a lot of weird stuff, and community events too have been so cool. And AI demos, bug horror story nights. So much fun. It's a lot of fun.

My favorite from the weird things we've done at live events is you facilitating The Price is Right for AI funding rounds. Like, you know, Cognition Labs, then everyone's trying to guess what the valuation was and we had some dinky prizes.

I forgot about that.

They're so fun. We're interviewing now for our next marketing hire, which I'm super excited about. And so we're talking to all these people and one of the people that we're talking to after our initial phone screen chat emailed me back and was like, so to summarize, the marketing strategy at Jamf is silly, but make them go, wow. And I just love that. Like, that's right. That's exactly it. Silly, but make them go, wow.

Exactly. That is literally my marketing strategy is like silly, But like, so stupid it's smart. Like, that is how I wanna be remembered, you know? Like, so dumb, I'm genius. Um, my wife saw the, um, the Venus flytraps on Twitter. She's like, was that you? Like, tell me that wasn't you.

Yeah, it totally sounds like something you would do.

Yeah, it does. It, it definitely does. Uh, I wanna ask some questions about cold email, so, yes. Uh, Yeah, I have a lot of readers who are interested in cold email and cold email changed both of our lives. I would say definitely 100% DMs for me especially. Curious if you have any, have any wisdom, any tips, especially around like VCs and stuff like that.

We, we started working together because you sent me a cold DM on Twitter.

I did. I saw your blog and it was not my intention. I just saw a cool blog you did. I was like, I like this blog. And I just saw this.

Let me see if I can, what did you send?

It was one of your blogs that you did on, um, uh, I forget, uh, was it Move Fast and Break Things is Over? Maybe. I don't know. It was a while ago.

Yep. Yep. Exactly. You just said, yeah, you, you did it right. You just sent kudos. And I was, and then you, okay, this is what you did. You messaged me and you just said like a kudos on something we had done. And so of course I look, who is this person? And your Twitter bio was optimized for that moment. And you basically put the value proposition for me in your Twitter bio, which was like, I help startups go viral or something like that. So then I'm like, by the way, are you helping more startups? We would like some help with this. And then the rest is history. I think often we put too much of the ask up front. And really it's about like forming real relationships and starting real conversations. I will say that when you talk to founders and you ask them like, who have been their best hires who have been with the company for like the longest amount of time, or just so core, often those hires come from a cold email. And that's because it's the same characteristic that makes someone awesome to work with that makes them send that cold email. They're go-getters, they're thoughtful, they go after what they want, they're determined, they put themselves out there, they take risks. And so and they're able to craft a message that compels you. And so a cold email is a great way to get opportunities, but there's an art. So if you send a cold email, but it's not compelling, the door's closed. One of our VCs, um, Anne Duane, she's at Village Global. She's so wise. She says, don't think selling, think be compelling. And I think that is exactly the motion. So too often in a cold email, someone will put the whole sales pitch. So it's a, It's just like a lot to consume. It just, it doesn't feel right. But if you think instead of selling myself, I'm gonna compel for a call and just try to get the next step, then you'll, you'll design something that's a little bit different and might be like 20x more effective.

100%. I've always found cold DMs way more effective because of what you just said, which was the bio is optimized. And also around that is like, people could go read your content, they could go see your stuff, they could see who follows you. And then another thing is like just engaging with people in general beforehand. Like yesterday, you know, Mike from Lightspeed Ventures, I forget his last name, Mangianino or something, posted about how he just hired a Memelord. And so I, you know, commented underneath with my meme newsletter, right? And then he messaged me saying like, oh, should I sign up and can I get a preview? And so I just sent him a preview, right? Like, like the little engagements like that. Are really cool. Like also very strange. Mike Maples, the VC, commented on one of my posts about Memes Make Millions and said, love that book. And I have no idea how he got that book.

That's amazing.

I have literally no idea. But then I didn't know he was following me either. And so I just shoot him a message. I'm like, hey, like, my bad. Like, could we do a podcast sometime? And so trying to make that happen. But like, it's the little things of just engaging with people that like end up in stuff. No, I've never had luck with cold email. Honestly, I don't know what it is. But cold DMs, any, I could get in contact with anyone.

You know, that's amazing. I think one pro tip is like when we say cold DM, so I could be wrong, but in my experience, cold DM on Twitter is a lot easier to engage with than cold DM on LinkedIn. And the reason why is LinkedIn is like an inbox where 85% is ads and the rest is stuff you actually want to reply to. But because there's so, there's just this unbelievable tidal wave every day of like people trying to sell you something. You often miss the real thing. And like, it happens so often that I'll be looking for something in LinkedIn and I'll be like, oh my God, this message from 6 months ago. It's so important. I should have responded. Like, I feel bad I didn't, but it was just buried under like 200 people trying to sell you their software. And so I think channel matters, especially when you're like making a leap, you get one shot and I don't know.

Oh, 100%. That's why I personally think Twitter's the best with that stuff. So the 4-column growth tracking system, right?

Yes.

I added a 5th column, which just failures because, um, I think sometimes, uh, it's good to have the failures.

You added a graveyard at the end. We just silently remove them from the table.

So I've shown this system to a lot of people, um, and, uh, in my community I've written about it and they, they love it. Right. And I, I got the system from, from Jamf and, uh, but the number one question I get about the system is how do you know when there's early signals and to operationalize it? And then the number 2 question is, how do you know when it's a failure? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on those questions.

Yes. When you're starting to do something on the go-to-market side, how do you know if it's working? We did 1.5 things. The one thing we did is just whenever a new user signs up, they get an email from a co-founder, and we added a PS to that email, which is, PS, how did you hear about Jamf? And when people respond, we copy-paste their answer into a Google Sheet, and it's like manual tally marks for how they heard about Jamf. And we think— and it's not perfect science. It's sort of directionally correct. Just because something doesn't show up there doesn't mean it's not working. But if something is showing up there, then we know for sure it's working. So it gives us some signal. The other— the half that we did is sort of allowing ourselves to trust our gut. Often, we heavily rely on numbers and data because companies closest to the truth win, and there's nothing more truthful than when you can see it in a chart. But at your core, you know what you feel proud of, you know what you feel like is working. And often your gut, if you had to say like, hey, we have to deprioritize that, will you think about it again next week? Or will you be like, or like you've just sort of moved on to other things. You don't have to be exactly accurate. You just sort of have to spend your hours the best you can. One example of this that we've been thinking about a lot is we— the podcast was an experiment that we did. And we decided that we would experiment with it for 12 weeks without asking questions. And on week 12, we would decide whether or not to renew for another 12 weeks. So we're in that second 12 weeks. And the viewership is very low. So each episode gets a few hundred views. And so the data would tell us, don't keep going. "But you know, the thing in our gut is every time we talk to, like every time we go to like a community event, we meet users who have seen various podcast episodes and remember things from them. And when we talk to candidates, we keep hearing, 'Hey, I applied to work here because I saw the podcast and that's sort of the vibe like I was looking for in my next team.'" And so it's not a high viewership, but it feels high quality enough that it's worth to keep going. And so this is where the data says no, but our guts say yes. And it's actually more important for us in this moment just trust the gut and keep going.

Yes, I literally— Sunday's newsletter was all about that, was data versus vibes. And because my podcast, the same thing, right? I'll have 100 to probably 1,000 views on YouTube, more on Twitter because I have a bigger Twitter. It'll— I post the whole thing there, sometimes 10,000, sometimes 100,000 depending. But really the comments and emails that I've gotten and from friends have just been so supportive. And really like the vibe of it, you know, like, yes, I'm investing or losing money in a producer/editor, but the conversations, the new people that I've been able to meet is like amazing. Like really following the vibe of it, not trying to oversmart yourself with data or overthink it and just kind of following your vibe and trusting your gut on that, I think is really smart. And like equally as important, if something is working, but it feels terrible, like there might be something out there that like works and feels good. Like, you know, so for example, like, yeah, my Instagram, right? I showed you those crazy viral videos of me, right? Like reading on the subway. But I was like spending a lot of time just riding the subway. Like it just did not feel good. Like it was not a good use of time, Dani. Like I would just sit there and like my friend and I would just go like for, you know, an hour, like 2 hours, just like. Riding around the subway in New York and like, it was going viral, millions of views. I was getting like some Instagram jobs doing like, you know, street interviews, but I hated it so much. Like it was, it was terrible. And so making that decision was like, it was, it was pretty hard, but like, yeah, it's gotta feel good and have good results. 'Cause like it's possible to have both. I really think.

That's so funny. All of the things that we like decide to do with the exception of like You know, writing on the internet have all been things where we're like so inclined and that's, that's a very funny example.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I'm curious. What are kind of the 1-year, 3-year, 5-year kind of tenure goals for Jamf, if you could share?

Absolutely. I got to tell you, like, I can't believe we get to do this. Like we've been given the opportunity to go out and try and build something as big as the software giants before us. Like GitHub was once a jam-sized company and Atlassian was once a jam-sized company and Microsoft was once a jam-sized company. And, you know, it takes the same effort in today to try to build something that big than it would to build something that gets acquired by something that big. And we have always said, you know, if Urtufa and I just wanted to go be product managers at like whatever big company, there are easier ways to get that job than to do a full startup just to end up there. And so we're kind of of the mentality of let's go big or go home. Like this is our moment. We've got this incredible team. Like we've got money in the bank. Why not at least give it our best shot? And the cool thing about that is, you know, we're, we're in this space that no one has touched. So The bug reporting and fixing cycle has been left untouched for 30 years. And engineers are just spending time miserably going back and forth into meetings. And so, if we can actually make this a really big thing in the world, engineers get to spend less time fixing, more time building. More software gets built, teams are happier. It's like so much positive will come. Let's just go. So my hope is when we look forward 5 years and definitely 10 years, there will be, we'll, we'll see, wow, the way that we report bugs has totally changed. We're never going back to the old way. It's never going to be manual screenshots anymore. It's now not even a main pain point of engineers. It's not a main thing that slows us down. We've helped change the velocity of the industry. And this is now the people who use it, love it. They benefit from it. And it just feels as invisible, like you couldn't imagine, like before. Like the way that I can't imagine life before Notion and Riverside and all the products that we use.

It's amazing. I remember hearing that early on when we were working together, just the vision of it. Uh, super exciting and inspiring and it makes me really passionate, uh, and so much fun to build Jam. Um, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been amazing and looking forward to doing it for a long time. Where can people find you, Dani? Where can people find you across the interwebs?

Well, the most important thing is I love chatting with users. So if you're using Jamf, which you can get started at jamf.dev, I want to hear all your stream of consciousness and thoughts. And you should just reach out. I'm danny@jamf.dev. But we're also sharing what it's like building Jamf every single day on the Building Jamf podcast, which you can get anywhere you get podcasts. Or I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn. I'm Dani Grant.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Cool. Thank you so much, Dani. This is fun.

Thank you, Jason. This is so cool. It's so like, it's just like chat with a teammate.

I know. I love it. It's really fun. I like brought on a friend the other day. I was like, less Lex Fridman, more Joe Rogan. Just like, you know, just talking to your friend. I wouldn't say this is Joe Roganesque, but you know what I mean? Like, you're just talking to a friend that you already know and you're just filming it for the internet to see, which is kind of fun. I like doing it.

The tagline for your podcast should be, I'm startup Joe Rogan. Join me for 3-hour-long episodes with— but just like the description.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Super fun. All right, cool. Thank you so much, Dani. I'll talk to you.

Thank you.

See you on the internet.

See you. Good luck.