Luxury Brand Psychology with The Internet's Creative Director

People are always asking me, oh, I want to start a luxury brand. You don't want to start a luxury brand. Like, it— starting something like that is a decades-long family-level journey, something that your children will probably inherit. So if you want to do that, you need to start by being a craftsman. Without that, it doesn't happen. Let's blow up the internet, from the basement to the higher net, scrolling, tapping, man, we ain't done yet. Let's blow up the internet.

What makes a brand luxury?

I think it is the perception that people have of, of basically what it, what it means for their lives, right? That if they can buy into a feeling and a sense of quality that gives them basically a sense of self. So it's one of those, one of those concepts that goes beyond what you buy, the physical object, and more you buy what it actually means to you as a person and the identity that you want to have.

Interesting. So do you think it could just be clothes, cars, or can something non-tangible, like information projects.

Yeah, I think software for sure. I think there is your traditional sense of luxury, obviously, and like handcrafted items and things that have like a rich history to them. But, you know, a topic I'm actually really interested in is this idea of luxury software, right? What is a, what is a more premier user experience? You know, I think there's, there's a couple areas of that, right? I look at foundations of luxury in a few ways where it's like you have to have like a story. You have to have a level of craftsmanship in the product. Uh, you have to have like a, an idea of, of desire. And then also you need to have time, right? So the hardest part about software and these newer things or, or info products is that you don't necessarily have the time level that helps establish luxury. But I look at even like a, like separating yourself through a luxury experience. Like I look at Claude in, in AI, for instance, where like I feel like the visual identity and the tone of voice and how it's presenting himself is setting that up to be a luxury differentiator inside the software space. So I definitely think you can go outside of cars and clothes.

Dude, that's funny. I was just yapping about that where somebody is like, OpenAI feels like the very clinical, hospitalesque, boring, and Claude, the design is just so beautiful. Even the ads are like delightful.

They make me like, well, the tone of the product, like I agree, like all the presentation of the brand for sure. And you can basically position your brand. I mean, just like that's, I like to differentiate between designer and luxury, right? Where like a designer product is a thing where like its design separates it literally and it's just design. It's aspirational. And then luxury adds that level of like time value onto it and like a certain craft. But like the tone of voice Claude has is what's most interesting to me about that is in addition to the branding, the innate way with which it talks and how it better uses language is obviously tweaked from ChatGPT to be presented in what I feel is like more set for a like luxury or higher end audience.

What do you mean exactly? Like how does Claude talk differently?

Yeah. Well, even if you just go into like into the chat, it's not like a default answer. The language is like slightly more flowery. And when it rewrites stuff, like I do a lot of like, I'll write a shady piece of copy and I'll put it into Claude and be like, use my tone of voice for my project for it. And like, even before projects existed, it just rewrote it in a way more like, it's like more colorful. It's more interesting. It's versus like the clinical approach. I feel like you mentioned from, from ChatGPT.

Interesting.

I love that.

I was just thinking about like the design, but I didn't even think about that. I, I mean, the, I love artifacts, Claude artifacts. Some of that as well is just kind of a premier experience. What other kind of luxury SaaS are you thinking about? I've got a whole list, but I'm curious what you're thinking about.

Yeah, you know, well, I think I've always looked at like, again, there's that difference between designer and luxury. Like with SaaS, you have to have that time constraint really like steps it a step away from being like a luxury thing. So I think less of like good examples I have, but more of the fact I think it's like a massive niche, right? Where like even the customer service aspect, like if I'm choosing between CRMs right now, if I'm choosing between HubSpot and Salesforce and Pipedrive and wherever. If one of those was to offer a supreme level of customer service with a, like an extremely dialed user interface with the history they already have as companies over X amount of time where I'm like, I can get a human 24/7 providing me a certain level of like concierge support. To me, that's like a luxury software experience. And I think part of how those brands are going to have to differentiate when every piece of technology is essentially going to be able to be created by code that comes out of thin air.

Yeah, I definitely feel that. I feel like what's weird about software though is it feels like the longer a company, at least in software, has been around, almost the less luxury it is.

Like, if you think about Facebook, Salesforce, uh, Google, because they don't care about the positioning, right? Like, I think Salesforce could have been that with what they kind of did with Dreamforce for a bit. They are, but you become so middle of the road versus kind of differentiating upwards. And I do like— and, you know, and then everyone starts fighting over their— the remainder of their user acquisition basically becomes like the lowest common denominator, right? Your Shopify ads show up on TV. Adobe's trying to get everyone on Adobe Express when like, you know, if they want to have a luxury play, you'd be focusing way more on Illustrator or whatever it is. So I feel like it is almost a, the conflict of time, right, is a complex one in software. Info products is an interesting one too, where like, would you look at a, um, like a Tony Robbins thing as like a luxury experience? Like depending on where it is or like where you go, like in, in like that choice of life, or if that was a more boutique version of that, that's at like Amangiri or for instance, like I think like the setting and the type of engagement, like you have this, window of like obviously the cheap version, your mainstream version, and a luxury version for almost any experience.

Yeah, something I set out to do. So I, I have a private community, um, for my paid newsletter readers, and my goal was to build a luxury community, right? Almost like a, you know, Soho House-ish, but like for nerds, right? Tech, techie nerds.

Let's go.

And so price is actually a feature, not a bug, right? Where like it excludes a certain amount of people. It's $99 a month. So it's mostly just founders, VCs, you know, heavy marketers and creators, right? And so I feel like there's something there where like, if you just let everybody in, it's no longer luxury, right? There's a reason why something is luxury.

Yeah, it's funny. I've actually been thinking about it similarly. I have a big newsletter on like brand strategy and creative direction, but my passion that I like to talk about, like that's like a tactical thing that I talk about a lot. My passion is talking about luxury and luxury experiences. And obviously the content I do around that also does really well. I've been looking at, I was like, how would I position a luxury Substack, right? Where I view Substack as a social network now, not as necessarily the list, but I was like, hey, what could I offer where that's $1,000 a month? And really I'm writing for an audience of 20. And it's been an exercise I've rolled around with, but I think it's like, it was interesting to me that no one had really positioned like that. The most expensive are $50. Like my always default is like, if there's the value there, like how do you keep going up, keep going up and be so extra? Inside that platform and drive so much value. You know, I think it's just an angle that more people should take. But so many consumers are just conditioned to be like, how do we get mass adoption?

Yeah. Yeah. So when I started my newsletter, it started at like $6, then it was $12, then it was $29.99, and then $99. I mean, I've been doing it for 4 years or 3 or 4 years. And every, every year, every day, honestly, adding more and more value with my Slack. We've got a Slack community. We've got weekly calls. You know, I build databases for people, add software discounts, build relationships, introductions where like I could see it, you know, in the future being $299 or $1,000 eventually where I think you're totally right about the time thing. You have to kind of start regular, right? A lot of these luxury brands, right? You think about— so my wife works in Burberry, works in luxury, you know, at corporate. And so I listen to a lot of the yaps around it. And, you know, Burberry started as, you know, just regular mountaineering clothes. Moncler just started regular mountaineering clothes, right?

And then they like, oh yeah, they like almost went out of business and came back. And yeah, well, it starts with craftsmanship, right? That's one thing I always like to talk about because people are always asking me, oh, I want to start a luxury brand. I'm like, you don't want to start a luxury brand. Like, it— you like starting something like that is a decades-long family-level journey, right? That is something that your children will probably inherit. So if you want to do that, you need to start by being a craftsman. And you can be a craftsman as a software engineer, as an info product guru, as whatever it is. But that, like, that honing of that, without that, it doesn't, it doesn't happen without the quality of the leather, without the, you know, Hermès level, whatever, for a generation. And that's just something that, like, people want this concept of fast luxury when, like, we can have fast fashion, we can't have fast luxury. And so what you really want to do is you want to start a designer brand, right? But then you also have to be a good designer. Once you start qualifying for people what it takes to succeed at these things, then you see why the crowd fizzles out a lot.

100%, dude. I love that, the time and like thinking about it as a generational brand, like all these Louis Vuitton, like, you know, family-led, obviously, like, yeah, Loro Piana still has some people in the family, even though they sold to LVMH, right?

And even the supply chain for Loro Piana was like, it's like generational, you know, and I think that's really interesting too, is like, you know, my father's father hunted down this rare wool from the blank-blank mountains is like, not just a sick origin story, but like actually a massive differentiator, right? Yeah, yeah, sick.

I mean, I mean, I tell this to my wife is like, when I die, like, I want my kids to run my newsletter. Like, you know, if we don't have kids, like, I want you to fucking run it. Like, this is like a family. This is something I care so much about.

Well, people differentiate acquisition from ownership, which is like, okay, there's a lot of brands owned by LVMH that are still like generational brands, right? Even though, and like, you can sell your company, but still like there's this level of involvement. I think we've been taught to build so temporary by, you know, like YC culture for like lack of a better term. And that's not a bad thing. That's good for many people. But if you, if your goal is is luxury, or your goal is like, I don't know, I'm a big nepotism fan, right? I'd love to have my, my son take on an extension of whatever. It's legacy building, right? Um, and so I do think that thinking about that, especially with all the tools we have now, that's not just like you're gonna be a cobbler or whatever, this is very interesting.

Yeah, 100%.

I love that.

Yeah, I've never understood the buy a newsletter and flip it. Start a newsletter for life kind of thing, right? Or starting— maybe that's just my philosophy. I like I like to start projects that like I could do for a long time, ideally, you know?

Yeah. Well, I think also too, like there's a difference between like, there's a newsletter that's topical and then there's your newsletter. That's like something you kind of invest in that moves with you. I often think about like, I moved through a lot of different stages of my career in different ways, doing different things. And like with that, I like abandoned handles or started an email list and stopped it or was on social media or not. And I often think about like, what would have happened if I had just been consistent throughout? And then, and then I was always like, oh, the narrative's too different. Right. I'm shifting careers. Like, yeah, I went from being an agency designer to being in tech. And I went from being in tech to being in consumer. I'm like, there's no way I can— well, really, people want to follow that personal narrative and just stick with it forever. And I'm like, man, my resonance to that community would be 10x if I had over the last 15 years, like, continued to tell that story accurately. It's an interesting thing I think about.

Oh, 100%, dude. Like Cyber Patterns, my newsletter, started as Brain Blast. And actually, before that, started as a wellness tech newsletter where I just interviewed wellness tech founders and people still are subscribed, you know. Hyper, your newsletter is one of the few that I read every single week. And I do absolutely love it. And now I've got my wife on it as well, reading it. It's good.

We're trying to get better. I feel like we went through a middling, a middling phase. You know, you know how it is. You're always in your own head when you're creating these things. Like, there's so many newsletters. I want mine to be like transcendent, you know.

Yeah. I mean, the aesthetics alone are just make you— that, that is, I guess, designer, right? That is the designer aspect, is, is you and Clayton there. Um, but I've really also been enjoying you guys adding more of a personal touch, like you talking about China. Like, that's— I, I've really been enjoying that, where it's not just about like brands, but like you guys' adventures and like your experiences.

Yeah, well, I like that too. So it's interesting, we thought about it. So I had— so Clayton and I started working together on a newsletter. Originally I had a newsletter, we kind of collaborated, then we brought it in together. And even though I'm like a much bigger creator and like, obviously I'm pushing the majority subscribers there, I was like, it felt really important to have like multiple voices and to tell multiple stories because otherwise, like, you know, especially when you're, if it was just Oren's newsletter or whatever, but if you're talking like, you're trying to bring a vision to a, like a real topic that's resonant, you need multiple perspectives. And then when Clayton was like, hey, I'm moving to Amsterdam. So like not working on the same time zone or anything. That was actually like, I thought that was amazing. I thought it was really interesting for us. Cause I'm like, I love the idea of being able to bring like someone on the ground in Europe with an American's perspective. Of someone like in LA, how can we like begin documenting that and showing that more? And it's been really interesting to kind of move the newsletter towards that and keep continuing to go that way. And it also opens the door for future voices too, which I feel like every newsletter has to think of themselves as, what does this look like as a media company one day? And I think that that's part of it.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think one that's done that very well is like Pirate Wires. If you follow them much, it started just as Mike Solana just writing his newsletter and then slowly added a couple more writers, one on the SF beat, one who's like, you know, doing stuff around just startups, one who's whatever. Um, so I, I think that is a plus for sure to be able to have people with different voices adding, adding stuff.

I do. I'm still interested. I'm fascinated with the idea of a luxury newsletter. I still think I might do it. I have like too many current projects. I have one person who might do that one with me, but like, I love that idea of like, okay, so newsletter to a very limited amount of people the way that, um, What's that newsletter? Opulent Tips, where she only sends it to like people that she's selected. Like you can't join it. It's only like she adds you to it, which is, I thought was a really sick concept. But I was like, this idea of like, okay, it's too small group. But like with that is like this ability to participate completely in the conversation. Like everything's conversational. Like the way Bob Lefferts publishes all his responses that he gets like back to people. I was like, I love that idea of like every other newsletter is just the like long form responses back and then to have it be conversational where it's like, cool, here's a newsletter. Here's the Zoom at 9, like we're going to talk about it, like we're going to make action on it. Like, as you can probably tell, but like marinating on this idea of like a luxury newsletter experience, and I'm curious to bring it to life someday.

Yeah, I think the community aspect really adds to it is, is at least what I found is a lot of people are just like, that's what they're really paying for at the end of the day is, is to bring it to life. Exactly. Kind of what you're saying is like, not just the writing, but get to talk to the writer, get to I get ideas, you know, like, uh, all that.

It's just so odd charging for all that. Like, I'm sure, like, as you know, like, it's just such a varied, like, like, economics of everything are so varied. There's like, to some people, like, a $50 price point is, is a lot. To some people, like, a $5,000 isn't enough. And then you try to justify all the things you're trying to do as a creator and all the systems and things you have and the money you need to bring in. That's one of the things I think, like, in this new economy just is like all over the place.

Curious, uh, let's, let's talk about that a little bit. Instagram has really been huge for you. What, uh, what have you been kind of learning, growing your Instagram and, and also around, you know, working with sponsors, that kind of stuff. I know you do a bit of that as well.

Yeah. So now I do a bunch of that. It's turned into like now probably a third of my, of my income is just brand deals. But the, uh, yeah. So look, I started off, um, I did it like I was a president of a company prior. I was running everything, operations, distribution, retail. And I stopped that and I wanted to go back to marketing. I'm a designer by trade, was in marketing prior to that. I started content because I wanted to like, I realized I didn't know how it worked and that was all marketing then. And I thought I wanted to go back into a CMO role, which I did go into and then just left a few months ago. And then I was like, oh, this is like, actually I enjoy doing this. I'm good at it. Like this is actually an interesting conduit. But what I've noticed, what I've been thinking all about recently is I grew to, you know, whatever it is, half a million across various platforms doing this green screen content, like explainer videos. Playbooks, ideas on trends, whatever. And then I've kind of like capped out where I was like, okay, that style of content, everyone who wants to see that style of content about branding or marketing has seen me multiple times and decided whether they want to come on that journey with me or not, you know? And so I was like, okay, like, what does this next level look like? And then so recently I've been transitioning a lot to like vlog content and storytelling content, like about my life that still has value in it as well. And so you can watch it more kind of cinematically. Because it was really like either start another page or start other things and kind of keep that as a core or kind of transition the journey. So I've been working on that content. That's actually been really fun. I really love this idea of, you know, capturing all these moments, like almost like almost dramatically. And I was like, interestingly, and there's this woman, Victoria Paris on TikTok, who does it really well, like in her niche. And so I'm really like working hard on transitioning into that. But like, but with brands, especially like the brands have to picture themselves inside your content. And what I've noticed is like, there's very few people at the size and scale that I have who could still accurately talk about things that are happening, right? Like I was still a CMO at an 8-figure company until maybe 3 months ago, 2 months ago. And so if you want to talk about like predictive lifetime, you know, value or like your return on ad spend concretely and what's happening in like ASC today, like I could still do that. And I think that's been an interesting, it's like seeing how few, like there's so many creators at this base level, but there's few that get to that like breakout level that actually have an audience that is willing to listen to them talk about topics brands want to share. And it's interesting having to strike that balance where like, I want to continue telling my narrative, but if I get to a million followers, only a fraction of them are going to care about the kind of brand deals I have today. And you kind of have to shift through what that looks like. But I think for any creator, the answer is like not to do any brand deals, right? Like I'll do them now. I'm interested in doing it. But like the dream, like in that, in that million plus range is like, you shouldn't have to have those relationships. You should be, it should be an extension of whatever business or things that you're doing, because like, I think the. The ROI is just much higher there, but curious, what would you think?

100%. I mean, I don't run any ads on my newsletters or podcasts. It's really just like my products that I'm building. You know, I've got my meme SaaS, Meme Alerts, that I'm building. You know, it's basically Google Trends for memes. It's, you know, got a few hundred paid subscribers right now. And so I just kind of advertise my products on that stuff. And I think the end goal is like, um, build my own stuff, sell that, and then also launch a fund or something of the sort and invest using distribution. So that, that's where my head's at on that kind of stuff is like end goal is not to be doing as many brand deals.

But it's interesting in the middle, cause like a lot, cause the money's so big, right? That was the interesting portion of me is being like, as I was looking at this job, like I'm in a job making mid-six figures and I'm like, oh, that's like 3 posts. you know, it's like, cool, if I have one brand deal a week, I'm making more than like the highest level marketing position like you can have. And, and so you start to really like wiggle that through your mind and you're like, okay, that's a means. Is this a means to an end or is this something that you want to create around? And then what are those kinds of brands' priorities? They're still figuring it out. And then I'm starting to realize, I actually think all that's undervalued. Like when I look at like, okay, you take this same, especially for like B2B, like there's just so few avenues to be able to have that conversation. And the ones they do where like you're like forcing a script down someone's throat is a lot different than like communicating on all these mediums, YouTube, newsletter, Instagram, conversations we're having here. And like being able to set the stage for like what professionals should be doing and using is like, seems like a thing that has like incredible power. And so I think about it a lot, but like, I feel like we're just so early. Like there's gonna be a next generation of these creators that like far more reap the benefits than where we're at.

Yeah, 100%. I, I really, um, I've been going down the Jeffrey Woo rabbit hole. Not sure if you're familiar. He's, he's a VC guy. Uh, he's partnered with Jake Paul and they started this thing called Antifund together. He started, you know, they, uh, Jeffrey started a bunch of companies, but his vlogs on YouTube I've really been enjoying. So what he does is like he stacks his meetings. So the other day he went to New York, right? And he met with a guy at Ramp. He met with, uh, you know, some other creator kind of guy and he just stacks his meetings over a weekend and pays somebody to come film and then edit, right? It's kind of like just a vibe where you're just kind of following him along and you're like, you get this inside look of like this dude who is deep inside Silicon Valley, right? And like has a lot of money. He's jumping on a plane to the Hamptons and it's kind of a vibe. Like he has this weird, crazy life and he turns himself into a reality show. Like I could see kind of similar vibe with if you're doing like a vlog where people like you're meeting with directors or in China or whatever, like that's just such a cool, it's a cool experience for people like to be able to watch that, you know, it's been interesting.

So I've been doing some of that, doing the vlogs on YouTube and I'm doing them now on like short form. And it's just interesting to see the way people resonate with stories and like what they want and not, especially when they're so used to getting value from you, like every time that you talk to them. And, and so, you know, and I think that there's this combination of like the viewer on YouTube is younger. And I feel like there's a lot of kind of aspiration there. And I feel like even looking at, I was just looking at Jeffrey's YouTube. It's like, he has a lot of views and not that many subscribers. And so I think there's a lot of like people who are like, we'll watch the content, we'll watch the thing in their feed, but like building the actual resonance with them to subscribe is like a really, it feels like it's such a personal thing for that generation to be like, I've signed up for you in my feed. And that's like another interesting dynamic that I think brands don't understand.

Yeah. I really think length is another thing is like. Time, like you said, with how long you're doing it. But also like there is a certain level when it comes to videos, podcasts. There's a reason why like Lex Fridman is a luxury podcaster, right? He's putting in 3 to 4 hours. Same with Rogan, right?

Yeah.

And like, that's why, you know, I'm starting to step up the pods, but like ideally get to a point where like pod is making enough money that I can rent out a studio for a few hours. You know, we hang out. It's a little much to do like a 3-hour Skype call or not Skype, you know what I'm saying? But like in person you get coffee. You go get some lunch, like do 3 or 4 hours and like take a bathroom break. Like totally cool. Like that is, I think, the, the luxury level of companionship that like you have to have some fucking money to be able to rent out a studio for a few hours and engineers and everything to be able to do that.

When I think I've seen it, you know, I've been looking at this a lot cuz I've been doing this, I'm doing this livestream, um, every week with, uh, a couple other creators. Then we're actually doing, um, I don't know if we've announced it yet, it'll probably be out by the time this, this comes out, but we're doing like a pilot with HubSpot. We're doing like a big, like single HubSpot thing to, to do the same thing. But like livestreaming has been fast fascinating to me because it's like, uh, and I've looked at Kaisanat, I've looked at like video games like FaZe Clan, but the reason I bring it up to what you said is it's like FaZe Clan is a house, I think. And they'll like move around the house. They can move room to room and they can easily stream and they can like adjust their stream. And then they have like a mobile unit. They'll go get like Raising Cane's or whatever. And then they're like be streaming when they go do that. And then someone's like editing and taking the clips. And I'm like, that's a, the reason I think that's interesting is looking at these streams. It's like, if we did the same thing and it was 4 hours long and it was live and we were in person and like guests are coming out and we're like unboxing random shit and we're pulling up all the software on the on the screen, that would probably be a really captivating experience. And we could both hype it up and have it be interesting. And it's very like second screen, but honestly, it doesn't even catch on. Like what I've noticed with live is like, until you get to like hour 2 and a half, that's when like people start to tune in, right? It's like, it's, you've gotten all this momentum. People have stayed. You start to get some real numbers. Like it's a long thing. And I think that there's so much of entertainment is going to move in that direction. But to your point, it's just such a production. It's a complicated thing to organize and produce that. I think there's still like a barrier there, but I'm trying to crack through that before some other people do.

I feel that I'm definitely trying to crack through that. It's, it's, uh, it requires money, a team, execution in general. It's, it's hard to do like something like what, you know, Jeffrey's, Jeffrey's vlog that I just watched, for example. It's like, dude, you got a video guy who's following you around New York. You don't live here. You got, you're jumping on a helicopter. You've got these meetings set up. You probably have a few VAs on your team setting this shit up. Like you've got the whole fucking thing set up, you know?

Yeah. So a lot of these people are funding it via passion projects or they're like massive, like obviously like like, where's FaZe Clan or Kaisernath or whatever it is. But yeah, I think that the monetary aspect of it is interesting. So I'm always looking at like, okay, how can I crack this? Because like the hardest part is explaining to a sponsor. Like if I go, like I've done all these deals with Adobe or Canva or, you know, any of these software companies that I've worked with. But if I'm going to go there and be like, look, I'm doing a live stream for 4 hours, going to play it. They don't understand how to make ROI out of that, even though they're the most sophisticated people doing influencer marketing. So it's like, we're in this very like untamed stage where it's like, all right, either you have the money to do it already. You're doing it like very low budget, but you're somehow figuring it out purely for the vibes, or you're able to articulate to these sponsors how they're going to get value from it. And that's like something I'm definitely trying to crack in the next few months of this year. The other thing is length. One thing I noticed doing this broadcast with the other guys is like, I'm down to go stream for 4 hours. I may not have— like, I have to really work my schedule to figure out how I do it, but that's kind of what it takes. But like, most other people aren't. They're kind of like dead after the hour. And I was like, oh, that's interesting too, because then it's like, all right, how do you maintain that excitement level? Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of caffeine.

Yeah.

I guess that's why rock stars do a lot of drugs, right?

Well, so that's setting too, like you're in the house or like, yeah, I, I like, I hadn't really understood live until I started going into this and I really wanted to. So I just kind of jumped into it. It's a recurring theme of my life, but like watching Kai Sanat's shit, it's like, okay, he's, it's 2 months in advance. He's doing a sleepover with Drewski and Kevin Hart. So he's got 2 hilarious people there with him. They have a bunch of fucking special guests that come in every, every 2 minutes or whatever, every 20 minutes, whatever it is. He's like, oh, this guy's here. He's got tequila or whatever. And then they have like a bunch of preset pranks and things they're going to unbox and whatever. It's like a whole scripted thing. I'm like, oh, if you set it up like that, if it's like me and 3 of my creator boys at a Hype House in LA and we have 4 guests stopping by and we got all these brands to send us stuff we're going to unbox and then we're also going to try and run the combine or whatever it is, like you, that then you start to, it makes sense. Yeah.

Um, I've never really dipped my toes into live. Um, I've thought about it. I think there is something around memes there, whether it's me just like making memes for a while or you know, me and my friends hopping on there and doing that. Um, I think there's definitely something there. I haven't, I'm a little nervous, honestly, you know, like I, I put a lot of stuff on the internet, but I've never done a live and like kind of nervous.

You're funny, or at least like from the tweets and stuff that I've read, like you have humor. I think that's the number 1, 2, 2 and 3 thing people want to watch, right? Like I'm funny, scripted funny. I can make a joke in a video, but like off the cuff on the, like here, like I'm not as, you know, but I think there's, if you, anyone who has that like natural propensity to make people laugh, I feel like is going to thrive on live. But that's also all the vehicles you see from a meme or anything else. It's like, oh, like, okay, I can do a slapstick thing and that's entertaining, or I can do this like intricate thing, or I can do like some like third wave cultural stuff. I don't know. I think there's a lot of interesting ways to go about it, but I do feel like that's the future, right? Because I see all these Gen Alpha, like for, like I have a, one of my brothers has 4 boys who are between like 13 and 17. And then I have a, I live on a street in Orange County with like a bunch of like tweens talking very Germanly. They're all second screen, right? They're playing video games. And they have something else on in the background. And that's where the Kaisenat stuff comes in. And I feel like even now, even with the Brand Brothers stuff, which is the live we do, guys, people are just at work and there's just a marketing live on in the background for marketers. And I was like, oh, that's just a no-brainer that that's going to exist. And it's not going to be like Hulu, right? It's going to be somewhat interactive. You can ask a question. I was like, I feel like that's going to be everywhere.

Yeah, actually, I did a podcast the other day, Madvertising. It's for AdQuick. And he said, like, before we started the podcast, he's like, just to put this in reference or put this in perspective, like most people who are listening to this are probably working. They're marketers who are working and just want to be entertained while they're in Canva or Photoshop or something. And, you know, I really thought about that and it was like, I do the same thing. Like I've been doing that more and more honestly where, you know, if I'm working on something a little repetitive, even if it's creative, like something like Midjourney, I'll just put on, you know, a podcast video, I'll put on whatever and it just like keeps you going. It's such a nice thing. Like, I, I love being able to provide that, even if I'm not providing that to that many people. Like, it makes me happy that I'm able to provide that. It really does.

I think it's just a generational split too, of like basically Gen Z down who are so trained to be able to do two things at once and listen to two things at once and who second screen TV their whole lives while browsing Twitter. That is just completely foreign to Gen X and 90% of millennials that I think that that's where like there's just that gap in like who's creating for that and then creating that from a business perspective, right? Those business people at Gen Z doing that don't quite exist yet. And it's, but I think that's like, that's just one of those consumer habit changes that we haven't quite digested yet. I think Waymo is the other one that's going to be interesting. Like, I don't know if you've taken Waymo in LA yet, there's a whole radius we could roll around. Like, oh, this is going to change everything. Right. Like that time is going to be completely freed up. People are going to rethink everything about how they live their lives because this is such a better experience. We have a lot of interesting things coming.

True. Yeah. I've taken a Waymo in SF and I didn't even think about that. It's going to be a whole new entertainment sphere where you could just chill and get entertained the whole time or work or whatever.

Well, like LA is so particular because like it takes forever to do anything. I go to LA, I pick 3 things every day. I go up to LA, I'm like, I can do 3, I can logistically get 3 places in back in the day. But then if I have that, but I can do calls in the interim or I can like, you know, or also anyone commuting, like I worked at a place I really enjoyed. I worked with the shoe surgeon in LA for a while. I just got tired of going up and down, frankly. Like I was tired of having an hour commute to LA every day, but you know, Waymo, like I would still be there. You know, it's interesting to think about.

Yeah, 100%. I'm curious, Asia, uh, you were just in, in China. What's your thoughts, um, on shoppertainment? I remember seeing like that would be like a huge thing. Uh, A16z was like putting a lot of money in there. And I feel like like TikTok is that, and now YouTube's adding affiliate deals. Like, is that the future? Like, am I just gonna be like, oh, buy this, like in the middle of a podcast? You know, like, is that where we're heading?

You know, it's really, it's really interesting. I think like lowering the barrier to entry is interesting, but like, so like in In China, we'll start there. So I met up with a friend of mine who— his wife is a streamer, like full-time. And so what she does is she takes new Korean fashion stuff that's happening in Korea and she puts her spin on it and makes samples locally, streams. And if people like the samples, she basically produces it and buys it. It's like a whole ecosystem, which I was fascinated by to see. Like, that's her, that's her life. And sometimes those streams are huge and they're doing 6 figures. Sometimes they're small, they're doing 4 figures, but, uh, but I was like, oh, that's just an entertainment source. Right. And when you actually scroll through the feed, the live stream is there. It's much better. It's like literally like the way you see like yoga apps or things here, content on Instagram, people are just scrolling through and they're getting a workout in and the clothing's just tagged and that's their live. And I feel like we haven't hit that here. And I don't know if like consumption kind of hasn't gone there with the shopping, but like, like TikTok Shop is just designed to be a commerce vehicle to it's advertising. It's just average, like direct response advertising in video format, which has always been a better way of sales. And on YouTube, I'm really curious to see what it looks like. Like I tag all my own products in YouTube all the time. I don't have the biggest YouTube ever, but like I have, I've made like 2 sales or something off that. I think like it's so passive. It's just like, it's just saving people a click more than anything and like encouraging it. And I think like building entire sets of commerce around it or QVC or whatever would have to look like China to be successful where it's like, yeah, like my Peloton instructor today has these 5 items and if I want it, I can go click it. It. It's just like innately built into the other entertainment we have. I think that's going to happen, but I don't know if it's going to like replace the way you scroll on Instagram.

Yeah, I, I don't know. I hope not. I'm not a fan of like watching, uh, you know, people sell to me. Like QVC is actually like based in my hometown. I'm just like, I'm not a fan of watching QVC personally.

I think people didn't have enough to do. That's why those things were popping. Like I was, I remember I was the VP of marketing at a consumer electronics startup, like maybe a decade ago. And QVC was a channel for us. We went on, we would do big sales and it worked really well. But I think it's just because there's a generation that just didn't have shit to do. And now it's more compelling to go through like the internet. You have an endless amount of stuff to get into. And so the browsing experience is just much quicker. And like, it's still about like interjecting between whatever you're looking at with like an advertisement, whether that's a TikTok shop video or something that's a paid ad. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious. So you were just in China. You've also talked a lot about sourcing products in your past posts. What kind of advice, say I, you know, want to go start a merch line, maybe start, you know, these jerseys, I just bought them on Amazon. I did the little customization on Amazon, but let's say like I wanted to meet with the supplier and actually get them made. Any advice on that?

Yeah, so I guess It depends, like, it depends how deep you want to go, right? So basically I look at like there's 3 ways. There's people that, uh, hey, I just want to make a really simple thing and I don't want to do too much into it and I don't want anything to be custom or whatever. Just get whatever's easy for you. Don't try and do too much. Then there's a second level that's like, hey, I want to have someone ship things for me. I don't want to deal with it. I want to have a custom item that's like actually cool and I may want to do some of my own tweaks on. And with that, I would just go to vendors on like Pietra. Like the reason I like Pietra a lot is that they have a built-in 3PL. and they vetted all the factories. So basically like you can get, it's like Alibaba, but it's like 2,500 people instead. And they'll have like a rep that can help you. And so like, I look at that being like, they're just solving a user need. I think is fantastic of like, you want to go into Alibaba, that's a whole nother world. But like here, like an American company is going to help me find a person. They have a warehouse for me. I pay a monthly fee or whatever. I can go make that done. But if you want to make things that are really interesting, you kind of have to go still. I didn't even realize this until this last trip. I hadn't been to China in a decade, but it's just like the level of way things progress there and the cultural differences. Like if you want to make things that are really interesting, you need to be facilitating those steps on the ground. I think the starting place for most people for that is Canton Fair, which is twice a year, which is like where all these vendors in China put on this massive trade show, the scale of which is like unrivaled the rest of the world. And you can get anything, whether you're trying to like— you want a producer for— you want to make air fryers, you want to make couches, you want to make shirts, whatever it is, you can find that there. I think that's a good entry point for the West to be like beginning to have those conversations.

That's crazy. I mean, it's got to be a little bit easier now going to China still. Pretty intimidating.

Uh, yeah, well, it is. You can send a design if you're able to polish a complete thing and send it off. That's easy now. Now you just find a factory that will make it.

I gotta show you this. So I had this idea a while ago. It's like, you go on hiking trips, right? And you're eating some trail mix. How do you store your nuts, right? And so I was like, oh, I should start a nut sack, right? Yeah, exactly. Nut sack. And so worked with Alibaba. I was, uh, I was on my honeymoon actually, and had some free time chilling, wife was asleep, and, uh, just like texting somebody from Alibaba, right? And it was like, uh, for 2 hours, it took a while. I didn't realize how much information they needed.

Uh, exactly. And how many decisions you have to make. And then what you realize, and the reason I encourage going over there is like, for what you're doing, that's perfect. But then you'll start to realize really quick that like, they present you with this really limited set of options because they don't understand what you're into and what you want. If you're really doing creative things, say you're like powder coating metal or you want to make really interesting clothing. You need to see the options and availabilities they have, and they culturally just wouldn't even think to send you some of the interesting things. They just kind of really go back to like the default. And I think that like going over there and applying like your ideation or what you can see inside their world is what allows really interesting things to get made. Yeah.

Yeah. Did you have any trouble kind of navigating China?

Like, I know I had somebody— it's funny, I'm going to make a video coming up. It's like, you know, 3 tips. For like an oversized white guy navigating China. But the, but like, no, I think I went with a manufacturer I work with, this manufacturer, Crease Group, who does a lot of clothing for me, does a lot of activewear and bags and accessories. And they had someone there who like very graciously took me around to everything, which is, look, I'm like, I've driven a bunch of business like for them with projects I've worked on. I pay them to manufacture my stuff. It's an investment for them to go help me spend more money with them. Right. But like, that was very useful. If I didn't have the person speaking Mandarin who like knew where to go, it would've been much harder. But that said, culturally, if I had just gone and wandered around Guangzhou, like it's an amazing city. There's amazing arts kind of scene to it. There's an amazing, you can easily find fabric factories and markets and whatnot. It just would've been less effective. Whereas I went up with a list of like 20 things I wanted to get done and I got them all done. Right.

That's sick. Yeah. You're there for business, not pleasure. Yeah. I, I love it. What, what kind of clothes are you manufacturing right now? What are you working on?

Um, so yeah, so I just did, so these, these shirts are some of my shirts. I just put out some like some shirts. Shirts, some bags, um, and a few things. But right now I'm working on jackets, uh, like, like mechanics jackets with really interesting materials, and like pants with really interesting materials. I actually have like massive vaults down here of just like, just like banks of materials I got from, um, from, from China. Yeah, it's like imprinted denim and, uh, even just like various camos and whatnot.

But like, oh, that's funny. That reminds me of like going to a painting store as a kid and they give you those like swabs, you know?

Yeah, it's the same, same principle. And there's actually, there's one really interesting one I was going to pull out. Yeah, even these, like, I was like, everyone's doing camo now. I was like, what's after camo? So these like abstract, like almost camo, like canvas patterns I thought were interesting for jackets. So I'm doing like jackets and pants that like are inside these. Um, but just like going and hunting that down and being like, what does that like look like? What do I think is going to be popular? This, this was like a Japanese fabric that I'm using for, it's going to be like, uh, matching jackets and pants where it's like got this really unique texture to it. Like I'm trying to basically move from some of this initial stuff I did that's more iconography driven to these, to some things that are more texture driven. But like my clothing and stuff I'm working on is really just like a creative outlet for me, like as a creator to make, make more interesting things, like sell some of my creative vision, like help people buy into like the world that I have. I'm not trying to build like a $100 billion clothing brand or anything, but I'm trying to like create interesting things for people that would appreciate it.

Sick, man. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've shipped. My Memelord jersey to some friends. I've made some Memelord shirts. I have a shirt that says, uh, Balaji was right for Balaji Srinivasan. Uh, I wear that. Uh, that's in my profile picture.

Yeah, but you've got to do it. The Memelord shirt, it has to be like, has to be the memeable shirt, right? Like, that's what I look at, be like, all right, cool, can you do like, do the heat reactive print or the glow in the dark, whatever? Like, what is that one like little quasi-corny but works thing that like makes it so it's an object?

So true. I didn't even think about that. I just threw it on Redbubble, bro, and like like just had the word meme lord, but I should, uh, do some weird prints.

Well, cause I hate saying it, but like one of the things I talk about now, like I do a lot of these conversations with brands who are like lost in whatever space they are, like a lot of larger ones too, where I'm like, look, if you can't make content about it that people share, it's not a good clothing item. Right. And so like, even like, like even, you know, so I'd done some stuff on like heat reactive, wherever that's the best example you can make some viral thing. But like, honestly, no matter what you have to have, like, what is that one thing that require like like the saying can be part of it, the text can be part of it, but like people have to have that, like you have to be able to make content about it, like to make things that stand out. And every item has to be like that. You're going to literally watch your store be like navigated around the items that can stand out on the internet.

Dude, that's so interesting. Um, it's the same thing with software to some degree. I wrote this article about magic moments. Like you got to have these like magic moments that like are shareable that like people want to tweet about. Like would somebody send it to their friend in a text or a Slack or like whatever it might be? Similar, similar thing. Shareability, dude. Everything right now. I'm curious, you, uh, have you spent much time thinking about Burberry?

What's— I have actually a lot. I made 2 videos about Burberry that have done really well. And then I got like, I've done some seeding and stuff with them. Um, but yeah, I, I, uh, they're in a complicated place right now, but I actually love their new look and feel and a lot of what the new creative director has been doing. But yeah, you're obviously pretty submersed in that world.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely am with, uh, with wife working there and, uh, curious, like, uh, do you think they should lean into their Britishness or go try to find Americans?

Yeah, I think they should lean into their Britishness. I think the, the, uh, heritage maximalism style, for lack of a better term, is good, and the iconography that they're using is good. I think that they are— it happens a lot with English brands, especially older English brands. They are consumed in this conversation of who we are and how we resonate and modernity when it really comes down to like like really like making excellent wearable clothes and marketing them and, and not being caught in a perpetual identity crisis. And I think that like that seems to be where they are.

Yeah, that's really interesting. I think going back to, you know, they were an outdoor clothing brand too for explorers. Like it'd be so sick if they had, you know, mountain clothes and ski clothes, like shit like that.

And they kind of do some of their best pieces, like they have some zip-ups that are really nice right now, um, that are kind of like patterned that have that little like the knight thing they have on them. And if you like, I would be 100% leaning into that. And like, uh, like tradition is what those brands have and should be at the core, at the core of what a lot of that looks like. And then the storytelling of it. Like Burberry has amazing social media. They've done a really good job at this like attention-grabbing social media around the iconography of it. But I feel like for a lot of these brands, there needs to be the duality of that attention-grabbingness, because they're not Balenciaga. Attention isn't the entire goal. Attention is partial the goal. In fact, for Burberry, attention— I don't know how good attention does It's just a reminder the brand exists, but then you have to follow up with the story of the item. And I feel like that's what a lot of these brands, them included, just aren't doing right now. It's like they're not giving you that breakdown on that a creator will give you for a cheaper item. Like one thing I was addressing, I did this, uh, I had this thing where I got like retained to do this like Gen Z study thing. And we had all, we were talking to all these Gen Z people about how they engage with fashion. And one thing I found that was fascinating was a lot of them had like 2 or 3 creators they followed and they would actually pull those creators up when they went to get dressed for the morning and find an outfit based on what those creators had. which is just a habit that millennials would never do. And they'd be like, oh, I'm going to go check Ted and like, okay, I'm going to switch those outfits. Oh, I can make that one. And I was like, shit, like all those people are wearing what you think, like Ellwood and White Fox and like all that kind of shit and not an Abercrombie. And it's like Burberry needs to be in those conversations or, or spawn or putting those conversations together for the people that do consume their stuff to understand how you style and use it. Or else that attention is just not getting leveraged in a way that's tactical, especially to buy a $2,500 jacket.

You know? Dude, I can't even imagine that. I just wear what I want to wear. Like, I just wear my outfits. I just, I wear what I like.

People are super concerned about fits. It's really, really interesting. It's easier than ever to look good by just being like, oh, let me pull up this TikTok. Oh yeah, wide pant, cropped shirt, this jacket.

Dude, wait, wait. I have noticed that is like everybody in New York just looks so cool all the time. And it wasn't like that before. Like it is easier than ever. Just like there's just cool clothes.

Yeah, it doesn't, because I started to think about it because especially like, because body types is a big part of it. It's like, okay, cool. I'm tall or I'm squat or I'm big or I'm whatever. And I find a creator that kind of looks like you and you're like, okay, well, if that works for them, it's going to work for me. And that just didn't exist, right? Like I've always looked at that being like, every model is like, does not have my body type, right? I'm like, I'm 6'3", 200. That's not gonna, you know, like it doesn't quite work and it's, but I'm not big enough to look at athletes. And so it's like, okay, but now you can find your 5 people. And then you'd be like, all right, whatever they do, I'm going to do. And I think that's a huge factor as to why people look better.

That's so weird. That's crazy. That's, that's so interesting. Do you think any of these, like, luxury brands, should they be going into sponsoring, like, you know, giant podcasters or business, like, B2B creators, like the Lex Fridmans? Like, should he be wearing Burberry? Like, shit like that?

Yeah, I mean, I do. I think every single— I think anyone who has attention attention is such a wild commodity to which, to the level of which people don't realize, especially for stuff like that where like there's so many guys who don't think at all about what jacket they're wearing, who watched Lex Fridman 1,000 times over a year or whatever. They're like, I 100% think they should be getting into that. I think every one of those opportunities, like wherever there is attention, if you can get on it, like the better. Like I think about it, man, I had John Varvatos sent me a bunch of like great jackets at one point. Um, I wore them all the time just because they were really nice. And I probably got asked about those on my content, which is way smaller than Lex Fridman's, hundreds and hundreds of times. And it's just like, just opening that conversation, I think, is wildly underrated for most fashion brands.

I couldn't agree more, dude. I'm trying to get Burberry to sponsor like SF Tech Week or something like that. If you get like, dude, VCs, tech people, like we don't really care a lot too much about that. Like, especially in SF, they don't give a shit. So you're 100% right where like, if you know, some big VC is wearing a suit by blank, like that's actually like like, all right, whatever, like, let's do it, you know, like, all right, sure, let's go with it.

Yeah, well, I think especially they, like the Allbirds effect, right? Like, I remember that I was working at a Silicon Valley company during the Allbirds heyday where it was just like, oh, other people are wearing it, sick. That's the only qualifier to get fashion people to, tech people to adopt fashion is that other people have it. It doesn't have to be good. It can be terrible. And so I think that's interesting. But like, look, say Burberry did that sponsor SF Tech Week, they dropped the Burberry Tech Vest in their color in a more subtle version or whatever. And they really harp on their kind of rain jackets, outerwear, more traditional stuff. What's the matter?

Yeah. Curious. Uh, speaking of tech and fashion, AI friend, yay or nay? What's your thoughts? Should it have been cooler looking? Cause your post on that was so sick. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, he had tweeted and then deleted a bunch of more interesting form factors, like a couple months prior. I was following him from that tweet. And I basically, I think that like, I do think that adoption for something like that, if it's not going to be in your AirPods already, if it's not already going to be built into your phone, it has to be a fashion it item to some extent. Or has to be a trademark. And I was like, look, if they went— if it was Friend times Homer and it was like, it was like a Frank Ocean times Friend wearable or whatever, they would have certainly kicked off adoption significantly more than where it is now. But that said, I think it really could come down to the functionality. I look at like, I ordered one of those. My hardest part is going to be wearing it because it just doesn't look good. I can't style it with anything. And I am certainly interested in using it. But I do think that you have to consider both of those in any of these wearable technology until it's visible.

Yeah, I wonder if they're— if it gets big enough, there's gonna be this sub product market for like cases, you know, like almost like the iPhone case heyday when that was like the big thing, customizing your iPhone. People still pay a lot of money.

Well, you have to— you have to basically make that market. Like I feel like it's all those companies, right? Like you have to be able to either like engineer the good designs to come in or make it aspirational or whatever it is, or have the customer base already has it, right? Like, like AirPods Max is a good example where where guys like Mason Raksha, who's the guy who did those, like, for Drake, he did like the intricate, like, inscription, the engravings on them that were like super sick. And then like that kind of blew up, like modification blew up because someone was like, I'm taking an it item. I as an artist, I'm going to apply for it. This famous rapper retained me to do that and paid me well to do it. And all of a sudden it's a cultural thing, but they had that market built in. Whereas I feel like for someone like Friend, they have to launch with that. They have to be like, here's the 6 designers we chose to have those skins. And it's like, oh, it's Is this person from like from Mew Mew or someone super relevant? Or like we got Helly at a meal or like whoever like is really interesting. Um, cause I look at like, it has to have that level. Like Whoop had that, right? Whoop is a decent functionality, but it looked good. And other people would be like, oh, how do you like your Whoop? Cause they saw it. And like, and there was like a level of like understanding of what that was. I felt was really excellently executed for like a common man and Friend has to be a level of creativity above that.

In my opinion, I agree with that, especially to get over the weirdness of it.

I'm super excited for that. I look at it like, I don't know, I feel like there's just two types of people. If you have an internal narrative or you don't, like I have an internal narrative, I talk to myself. I would love for that to be a, not a one-way conversation and for someone to remember the things that I said or to give me any level of fucking feedback or retention of that. It actually sounds immensely useful.

Dude, I would love that too. Cause I'm walking down the street talking to myself and, and I'll have, I'll put in AirPods even though I'm not talking to anybody just so I look normal. And I still look like a weirdo and I still feel fucking weird about it. I just want to normalize talking to yourself. And like, I say so many voice notes, I'll be writing tweets. Like, just let's, if you're listening to this, it's normal.

It's normal. Yeah. And it's funny seeing the responses where a lot of people like, there's obviously a whole ton of like people that just don't, it's like either you do or you don't, but like, if you do, you really know what it's like. And especially for like creative work, like you mentioned, people sitting there at a Figma board for X amount of time. Like, I actually think it would be very instructive for my workflow to be able to talk about what I was doing and why I was doing it. It and then like get some sort of like, you know, cause like that's just a very natural thing to make things better. Like while you're doing it is explain it. Um, I don't know. I think there's, there's definitely something there, dude.

I agree. I mean, I do so much shit and then forget why I did it. Also, if you look at like, so Warhol, right? Andy Warhol, he would carry a tape recorder everywhere he went. That's all the Friend is. It's just like a modern tape recorder that's like connected to AI.

Yeah. Well, look back to this, this conversation. If I'm like, oh, who is that guy in SF that I was on the podcast and they mentioned the YouTube for it. It's there. Like, how many times do we go through that experience?

You know, that'd be so nice. Start a new friend. I want an enemy, actually. AI enemy would be so much better. Just challenges you to like do cooler shit.

I do think one— people were asking in this conference, I was at this dinner the other night, and it was like, okay, well, what do we think is gonna be unexpected about hardware technology? I think you'll appreciate this in the kind of meme land, but I was like, hey, like the unexpected things that we're going to have, like, are in hardware, actually gonna be really interesting where it's gonna be like, like, I think we're gonna have like chaos, right? Like, imagine putting out a piece of chaos hardware, like, like The Enemy, the full whatever. Like, I think people are just going to want to be taken out of their normal lives, and we're gonna see some really strange stuff get released that does surprisingly well.

I think so too. I'm really excited about it. Um, dude, this was awesome conversation. I think people find it immensely helpful, and, uh, just inspired me. I'm gonna go make some fucking chaos.

Let's go, brother.